From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 9 22:46:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19666 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:46:29 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA17603 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:40:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:40:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199712100440.WAA17603@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #507 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 507 In this digest: Re: IN> Creativity Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re:[FLUFF] IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> Movies Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Red Dwarf IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Creativity Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance IN> God, the trump card. Re: IN> God, the trump card. Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Red Dwarf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:24:12 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Creativity In a message dated 12/8/97 5:41:35 PM, cvenedam@lynx.dac.neu.edu writes: <> Three points here: (1) These people *aren't* necessarialy dealing with celestials. The way I see it, most of the people I mentioned aren't even aware of the struggle going on around them and their message. (2) Dylan as a soldier of Eli is *fun*, IMHO, because we can tell exactly when Eli dropped out by when Dylan stopped being fresh and creative. (3) I did this to encourage discussion, not to set some sort of warped view of canon in people's heads. Mark(hoping this clarifies things...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:37:01 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows >> >> > >Back to the Shedim. So, anyone notice that Dominic has a striking >> > >resemblance to a Balseraph? >> > > >> > Or maybe Malphas has been possessing the poor old man, hm? }:-{D >> > >> >But Shedites can't possess Celestials! It says it right there in the >rules! :) > Oh, you're no fun. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:58:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows > >But Shedites can't possess Celestials! It says it right there in the > >rules! :) > > > Oh, you're no fun. }:-{D > *mutters* I bet you never made a Habbalah of Fate who emulated the Malakite resonance with the Balseraph of Fate attunement. She had a special ugly (well, -charisma) vessel just so she could pass herself off as a Malakite. As part of her training, she'd had several theological discussions with Kronos, during which he told her a lot of things about the True Nature of the Plan. :) (I know she's not a legal character. Sue me.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance > Michael is the Archangel of War. Not *the* War, but close. He might be > mightiest of the Seraphim, but he is also very, very wordbound. (Also, is it > just me, or is the picture very reminiscent of Highlander from the series? I > digress.) Michael's resonance is for Truth, and for War. He knows the Truth > about War. He knows that the angels are going to lose if things continue as > they are. Ah hem. My favorite NPC of mine who serves Michael has a vessel that looks like Adrian Paul. It had to happen SOMEWHERE in my game, because Duncan McCloud is just too hot. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:29:14 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance : Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:25:11 +0000 (GMT) : From: Kevin Walsh : Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance : : : : About that Greatest Destiny ~= Worst Fate thing. : How does this work, exactly? In what circumstances do you envision such a : thing being true? I'm just curious, not being deliberately nasty. Hmm...I'd say a good example would be Robert Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_. Psychology and advertising become so effective that it was possible to deliberately engineer a culture in any way you like. In the novel, a religious fanatic used these techinques to turn the US into a totalitarian theocracy. The rebels then used those *same* techniques to overthrow the government and establish a near-utopian civilization. [*] But in general, it can work as long as there are multiple possible paths, trading off the magnitude of the success for the riskiness in the plan. It's just that IMHO it's aesthetically satisfying to make the best possible world the most dangerous to try to achieve. :) [*] OBMiniReview: Revolt in 2100 is a decently good book, but I wouldn't recommend looking for it unless you are already into Heinlein. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:31:12 -0500 (EST) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows According to Kevin Walsh: > I included the smiley for no other reason than to show that I wasn't > assuming that Malphas can't possess Celestials. After all, saying that > Shedites can't possess Celestials doesn't count, in my opinion, as much > of a joke. YMMV, of course. Heh, smiley. Right - ummm - I think my brain has started tossing smileys into a mental killfile or something, they're so prolific that I don't seem to register them..... Then again, my theory is that the Illuminati steal them from all my email so that I don't see them. Of course, think of all the havok Malphas could wreak if he talked Vapula into writing a program that deleted the smileys from email!!!!! Usenet would degenerate into Battlenet! Wow, that could be a plot seed......Internet terror just because "emoticons" are no longer useable. :):):):):):):):):) - thought I'd get 'em in now...... Dan Ozdowski - -- You had that "I'm not necessarily telling the truth" look on your face.... Emily Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:43:06 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows >> >But Shedites can't possess Celestials! It says it right there in the >> >rules! :) >> > >> Oh, you're no fun. }:-{D >> >*mutters* I bet you never made a Habbalah of Fate who emulated the >Malakite resonance with the Balseraph of Fate attunement. She had a >special ugly (well, -charisma) vessel just so she could pass herself off >as a Malakite. As part of her training, she'd had several theological >discussions with Kronos, during which he told her a lot of things about >the True Nature of the Plan. :) (I know she's not a legal character. Sue me.) > Ahem. I could never resist a Challenge. }:-{D ANARIEL, Habbalite Servitor of Fate CORPFORCE - 3 STR=6 AGI=6 ETHFORCE - 2 INT=5 PRE=3 CELFORCE - 4 WIL=8 PER=8 Vessel: Human/3 (Charisma = -2 (menacing)) (Points: 9-4 = 5) Attunements: Habbalah of Fate, Balseraph of Fate (Malakite), Fated Future (Points: 15) Malakite Oaths: (1) I will not suffer innocence to live, when it is my choice. (2) I will never surrender. (3) I will never do anything which will lead a soul to its bright Destiny. (4) I will obey Kronos' will in all things. Skills: Fight/3 Dodge/2 Lie/1 Fast-Talk/1 (7 points) Songs: Numinous Corpus (Wings)/3 (3 points) Artifact: Flaming Sword/2 (6 points) Total points: 36 "You're -not- good enough, you're -not- smart enough, and doggone it, you're evil. So you gotta die." Anariel is a Habbalite with a mission- make Heaven look bad while forwarding the word of Fate through slaying the young and innocent who have bright Destinies. This Demon's Celestial form appears almost exactly like a Malakim's, crew-cut black hair, black piercing eyes, and tatooed black wings up and down its back. In human form, Anariel's a tall, skulking figure whose glance makes babies cry and causes ulcers in nervous mild-mannered accountants on the way to the parking lot. He's taken on occasion to wearing a fedora, trenchcoat and scarf and muttering, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!!" Anariel's pretty straightforward in his strategy, something which on occasion has gotten him into trouble. (Who knew that little girl was a twelve-force Cherub with Numinous Corpus: Claws/6?) He's not as stupid as he acts, and thanks to long discussions about his Malakite guise with Kronos he has a firm understanding of the Symphony's darker side, but even with this knowledge he just tends to plow on ahead. He -loves- playing Malakite. Often he'll tell witnesses to one of his 'executions' that he's a Malakite, as bait the -true- Virtues to come find him. (He's made the 1,440 Most Wanted List, something he takes extreme pride in.) When not killing defenseless children and anyone Kronos points him at, Anariel acts as 'dumb muscle' for any team of demons Kronos believes is serving his wishes. He tends to background until trouble comes, at which point- depending on how the group has done in regards to Kronos' true wishes- he may help them, or just cast his Wings and leave them to their own Fates. How's -that-? }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:48:33 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance > >> Michael is the Archangel of War. Not *the* War, but close. He might be >> mightiest of the Seraphim, but he is also very, very wordbound. (Also, is it >> just me, or is the picture very reminiscent of Highlander from the series? I >> digress.) Michael's resonance is for Truth, and for War. He knows the Truth >> about War. He knows that the angels are going to lose if things continue as >> they are. > >Ah hem. My favorite NPC of mine who serves Michael has a vessel that >looks like Adrian Paul. It had to happen SOMEWHERE in my game, because >Duncan McCloud is just too hot. :) > This is totally unrelated, but funny, and was related to me by Ben 'Gryphon' Hutchins. One of the cosplayers at a recent anime con was trying to be Fox Mulder (X-Files, for the three of you who don't know). The thing is, in his trenchcoat and with his long black hair, he resembled Duncan McLeod much, much more than Fox Mulder. When this was pointed out to him, the cosplayer deftly altered his character. "I am Fox McMulder of the Clan McMulder. The truth is out there, laddie!" --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:16:30 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance - --On Tue, Dec 9, 1997 11:23 am -0500 "Earl Wajenberg" wrote: > > The first exponent I know of was the early Christian scholar Origen > (185-254, pronounced "origin" almost). [snip] > I nearly included Origen in the write-up. Another of his ideas was that it was really kinda cool to rip your genitals off, because then you would no longer be bothered by lust. This exhausts my knowledge of Origen... David Chart Seraph of Destiny without the cool "know everything" attunement ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:18:34 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re:[FLUFF] IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance - --On Tue, Dec 9, 1997 12:20 pm -0500 "Emily Dresner" wrote: > Ah hem. My favorite NPC of mine who serves Michael has a vessel that > looks like Adrian Paul. It had to happen SOMEWHERE in my game, because > Duncan McCloud is just too hot. :) That's "Macleod". I know this because my sister has the Highlander Official Souvenir Catalogue, which contains many, many repetitions of the name... David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:26:58 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance : From: "David Chart" : Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance : : Wow. That is really very good indeed. Thanks a lot! : Yves plans for everyone to Redeem. Eventually. Yep, that's pretty much how I see it, too. The full-blown apocalyptic version is one I won't actually use in my game. It just came out because I've been playing in a (non-IN) game with a GM who thinks that angst is bad because it means that doing good was at least a possibility. (Since the game is Feng Shui, I've resolved never to play Kult or CoC with him as GM.) So I had to get it out of my system before working on my own campaign. :) Anyway, Yves and Michael disagree over a basic philosophical point. (IMC, of course.) To whit: Is it possible for free will to exist without the existence of evil? Yves says yes, and Michael says no. Yves claims that it is possible for everyone to freely choose to be good, whereas Michael claims that if no one ever chooses evil, then you can't meaningfully say that it is possible to choose evil. I think that if I worked at it, I could explain this as an instance of a disagreement between a Platonic and positivist thinker. But that would be excessive. Most angels have a simpler explanation: Yves and Michael are wordbound. Destiny cannot help but believe in the best of all possible worlds, and War cannot help but see the inevitable compromise that prosecuting a war requires. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:38:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows > >> > >*mutters* I bet you never made a Habbalah of Fate who emulated the > >Malakite resonance with the Balseraph of Fate attunement. > Ahem. I could never resist a Challenge. }:-{D > > > How's -that-? }:-{D > > Cool. Very cool. (I presume you're taking double Dissonance for aiding people to reach their destiny, otherwise the oath doesn't make sense.) My character was quite different. She was terribly schizoid. She had her "Habbalah body" and her "Malakite body", and acted in very different ways depending on which Vessel she was in. In one, she worked diligently as a volunteer in soup kitchens, etc., tearing them apart from within. In the other she would appear with a message that there were demons in the area, and lead the poor saps into ambushes (not hard to organise when you have Celestial Attraction and Celestial Tongues). She was a better fighter than my Calabite and my Malakite (though not my Impudite, who deserves a story in himself), had the Fated Future attunement, and has the dubious distinction of being the best singer I ever made. She loved hymns in every Vessel. And she took the Vulnerability: Infernal Artifacts Discord. Her line was that she took an oath never to touch any item made by "the enemy". And come to think of it, why not take it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:57:49 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Movies For an IN movie (In Nomine: The Movie) definitely Judgement and the Game at least mentioned a few times, even in passing (IOW, I agree). Gabriel's been done. Michael/Baal thing might be neat. As for name recognition, Lilith is a *must*. And she should be portrayed as playing both sides of the fence, so as not to offend all the Lilith-lovers out there. "Oh, my God! I *cannot* believe they passed Lilith off as a mere Demon!" I can hear that if she isn't shown as playing both sides. I see a lot of opportunity to play off of anti-male sentiment, anti-establishment sentiment, which is what Lilith is all about, after all. Wow, we could really play on the American anti-establishment thing, making the movie a whole lot greyer than simple Good v. Evil... On the other hand... We'd have to be careful not to generate too much sympathy for the Diabolicals, just cause there's a lot of people out there who could see it as litereal "satanism" and what-not... Hmmm... but playing off of the word of Freedom, which means a lot to the American public. "Give me freedome or give me death!" - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:09:25 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows >> >> >> >*mutters* I bet you never made a Habbalah of Fate who emulated the >> >Malakite resonance with the Balseraph of Fate attunement. > >> Ahem. I could never resist a Challenge. }:-{D >> > >> >> How's -that-? }:-{D >> >> >Cool. Very cool. (I presume you're taking double Dissonance for aiding >people to reach their destiny, otherwise the oath doesn't make sense.) That would depend on the GM. >And she took the Vulnerability: Infernal Artifacts Discord. Her line was >that she took an oath never to touch any item made by "the enemy". And >come to think of it, why not take it? > Because not all GMs allow Discord in starting characters, which is why I didn't give it to this one. I don't think I've really created a munchkin with this Habbamalakite, but it is bordering on a combat monster. He's not there to solve puzzles or make plans, he's there to kill stuff- unless the best that can happen to them is an early death, in which case he'll let them be. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:41:58 -0600 From: "A." Subject: Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance [neel] > The full-blown apocalyptic version is one I won't actually use in my >game. heh heh. i will. more meat for the sandwich. fantastic idea. on the apocalyptic note, what's the general attitude towards sweeping, epic, world-changing IN campaigns? I mean campaigns that tend toward the Symphonically cataclysmic (like Second Fall/Second Chance could). Do we as IN folks like to run them and play them or do we prefer the smallish, more-focused "but-just-as-important" campaigns? (like trying to advancing your superior's word by steering that angry young fellow in a suitable direction) aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:26:36 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance >>>Well, true. What I trying to say (poorly) is that he must have some good reason, at least from his own point of view. Whatever the reason is, it must be true as far as it goes. Michael, being a Seraph, would know if the reasons he distrusts Yves are true. He wouldn't know if he has all the information, though.<<< No, a Seraph can form opinions that are flawed based on true facts. "I know he hates his wife. I know he wanted his wife dead. His wife was killed. Therefore, he killed his wife." Might be true, might not. The Seraph would know the first three facts are true, but (assuming of course he hadn't been able to ASK the subject), his Seraphic resonance would not guarantee his conclusion was true. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:26:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels >>>David..I KNOW you're a Demon Prince of something I don't think ever got quite determined, but I KNOW that you, of all people, know better than to think that restating the fact does anything to explain it.<<< I did explain it. You asked why Kyriotates don't have vessels, I said because they are inherently non-corporeal. If you're asking why they are inherently non-corporeal, it's because that's part of their whole conception. What part are you missing? >>>Again, this seriously doesn't follow if a Kyriotate is possessing a Vessel. When a human is taken over by a Kyrio, their mind bumps off to the Marches for the duration. Humans, almost without exception, not only don't have another body they might go to, but also don't have any particular way of getting out of the Marches on their own.. Celestials, also almost without exception, -DO-. They can skip out of the Marches and to Heaven/Hell, which doesn't require `waking up'...if anything, it's particularly difficult for Celestials TO stay in the Marches, under normal circumstances. {Which, incidentally, is another problem with it; if it works as you're presenting, it's an easy ticket to get a pal into the Marches who apparently -cannot- be bounced out, which is going to get very obnoxious...}<<< I believe if a Kyriotate takes over a celestial, he's basically out of action until the Kyrio leaves, just like with the Song of Possession. Though maybe that requires a more explicit statement from the Arbiters of Canon. (John? Beth?) >>>So...give me just one logical reason why a Celestial who has a Vessel taken over by a Kyriotate CAN'T just ascend back to Heaven and come back down in their other Vessel?<<< They cannot manifest multiple vessels. They're still somewhat tied to the one the Kyriotate is occupying. (Granted, the wording about the subject's mind drifting off to the Marches does leave that door open where celestials are concerned, but I'm pretty sure it's not what the designer had in mind.) >>>Sooo....why are Kyriotates, even less able to anchor to a single Vessel than Shedim, able to anchor to a single Vessel, which Shedim can't?<<< Excuse me, but Huh? >>>Precisely. Kyrio/Shedim are fundamentally, by their basic nature and the very way they interact with the Symphony, incompatible with Vessels.<<< I really don't see your logic here, but your universe, your rules. Kyriotates and Shedim are fundamentally incompatible with permanent physical manifestations, but they CAN possess the physical manifestations of others. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:27:53 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Red Dwarf In a message dated 12/8/97 1:02:36 AM, hart1j@nectech.co.uk writes: >>What is being looked for is clever, creative, and intellectual >>English-language TV comedy produced in the United States. > >The Simpsons. > Point to jo. (Matt Groenig is the anti-Nybbas!) Mark(I'm still disappointed that the Ackbar & Jeff Miller campaign never flew.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:26:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels >>>Okay, so you displace them one at a time; logically, if a Kyrio can do it, there's nothing to reasonably say they have to KEEP all their Forces there, because Vessels aren't built like humans that way - it'll be the same Vessel even after its Celestial gains 6 Forces. (Granting Edelstein's note that there is some interaction, the Kyrio logically may have to keep in a number equal to CorpF, so okay...he can take over THREE of his friends Vessels, but still can't have one of his own.) It's one of those things that falls apart from both sides...either they have to stay all in one place, which isn't Kyrio nature, or they don't, and, well, so far I'm happy to note that no one's suggesting that's a -good- way of handling it.<<< I think these interpretations are your own unique spin on Kyriotates. The ideas that a celestial possessed by a Kyriotate can reappear in another vessel, and that a Kyriotate can use less Forces than the subject's Force total to occupy celestial vessels, has been presented nowhere else that I am aware of. Your saying it is "logical" does not make it so. It is one possible interpretation, I suppose, but it's not canon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:54:51 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance > on the apocalyptic note, what's the general attitude towards sweeping, > epic, world-changing IN campaigns? I mean campaigns that tend toward > the Symphonically cataclysmic (like Second Fall/Second Chance could). > Do we as IN folks like to run them and play them or do we prefer the > smallish, more-focused "but-just-as-important" campaigns? (like trying > to advancing your superior's word by steering that angry young fellow in > a suitable direction) > > aaron I'm really exhausted, so I won't ramble. I'm of a split mind on world-changing campaigns. On the one hand, it's sort of nice to be able to have the actual world at your fingertips, you know, the one you live in. On the other hand, nothing is quite as cool as total destruction. I think it should be like the Stand. Everything sort of falls apart slowly, painfully, and with much angst before one can really just wipe out the world and start over. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:11:58 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Creativity >(2) Dylan as a soldier of Eli is *fun*, IMHO, because we can tell exactly when >Eli dropped out by when Dylan stopped being fresh and creative. Excuse me? I do not recall a phase in which Dylan stoopped breing "Freesh and crunchy" - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:23:08 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance >> Michael is the Archangel of War. Not *the* War, but close. He might be >> mightiest of the Seraphim, but he is also very, very wordbound. (Also, is it >> just me, or is the picture very reminiscent of Highlander from the series? I >> digress.) Michael's resonance is for Truth, and for War. He knows the Truth >> about War. He knows that the angels are going to lose if things continue as >> they are. > >Ah hem. My favorite NPC of mine who serves Michael has a vessel that >looks like Adrian Paul. It had to happen SOMEWHERE in my game, because >Duncan McCloud is just too hot. :) > >- Em Classicaly in the Chruch's art Michael seems to look more like a Richie Valens, young and ful;l of fire. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:24:49 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance >Hmm...I'd say a good example would be Robert Heinlein's _Revolt in >2100_. Psychology and advertising become so effective that it was possible >to deliberately engineer a culture in any way you like. In the novel, a >religious fanatic used these techinques to turn the US into a totalitarian >theocracy. The rebels then used those *same* techniques to overthrow the >government and establish a near-utopian civilization. [*] The gov;'t at the begianing reminds me, ironically, of scienctology. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:17:04 -0600 From: ehp Subject: IN> God, the trump card. Here is something I perceive as a problem. In Nomine is subject to the ultimate Deus ex Machina. Literally, God can show up and solve the problems if a GM wishes. Much as everyone likes to pretend that Lucifer presents an opposite to God, in the canon, Lucifer lost the original War to (of all people) Michael! God did not even have to step in! So. The demons know that they lost. They know that God can step in at any moment and make their little plans and plots completely irrelevant. But God does not. And the demons just keep doing what they are doing, in spite of all evidence of their being wrong to the contrary. God, and indeed Lucifer, have to have removed themselves entirely from the game. And they have... except in the completely random instances of 666 or 111 rolls. So, we are left with the only excuse for their actions when they happen as being; divine whim, infinite knowledge, and God moving in Mysterious Ways. Not to mention Lucifer, who is, by canon, no where near omnicient and more based on personal whim. What a cop out. It smacks of the classic religious answer to a difficult question. 'We take that on faith.' I am not saying there has to be a reason. There doesn't. But by the same token, I have a real problem with God or the Devil manifesting At All in such a universe. In the mundane world out side of game, there is no proof of God's existance. But people still beleive or not, and still keep doing what they are doing reguardless. But in In Nomine, the existance of God, and the power of God are beyond question. He acts, one out of every 216 rolls. Do you not think this would skew the perceptions of individuals? This is a philosophical question, not a game one, I guess. But suffice it to say, I have removed the 666 / 111 roll intervention in my games. Sure it give critical sucess or critical failure, but it does not give divine intervention. In one of my gurps games recently one of the players rolled three 666s interspaced after the first by two 111s, in the space of half an hour. Picture what would happen if angels were present. I guess I do not like infinite ineffability messing with my games. Unfortunately the concept of god is just that. The devil is fine, anyone can play the devil. There is more than enough precedent on that one. But in order to manage God, we have to make It less that what It is. In other words, In order for me to run God, I need to make him fallible. Well. Enough of this, sorry to burn your ears. Evan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:37:30 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> God, the trump card. > So. The demons know that they lost. They know that God can step in > at any moment and make their little plans and plots completely irrelevant. > But God does not. And the demons just keep doing what they are doing, in > spite of all evidence of their being wrong to the contrary. God, and indeed I tend to figure that that's one of the reasons demons were designed to be as they are...to wit, insane. Balseraphs, by their very nature, -cannot- preceive truth, and thus live in their own little delusions..(Lucifer's, presumably, is that he can win. Baal's, too.) Djinn and Impudites are so caught up in their own little selfish concerns that the broader facts of the War just don't impinge. Calabim and Shedim are both flat out broken. And Haballah...well, obviously, the average Haballah doesn't believe he IS on the wrong side. [It IS built from the premise that God does, in fact, know what he's doing, and therefor the Fall and the War must both be aspects of his Plan...] > This is a philosophical question, not a game one, I guess. But > suffice it to say, I have removed the 666 / 111 roll intervention in my On the other hand, it's pretty solid canon that the Interventions very, very rarely, if ever, involve God or Lucifer personally...they're just interventions from one side or the other. Most often a Superior who happens to glance over at that moment and give a quiet little boost, but there's also precedent for it to be as little as a passing Celestial from the same side, or even the individuals own Divine/Infernal nature happening to spark up a bit and work out nicely...there's a reason the 111 is just a Divine Intervention, and not a Godly one, per se. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:49:03 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed: Second Fall/Second Chance > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>I never thought about it that way, but it does make you wonder. After > > all, a Seraph can't even lie to _himself_, so Michael must have good reason > > for distrusting Yves.<<< > Well, true. What I trying to say (poorly) is that he must have some good > reason, at least from his own point of view. Whatever the reason is, it > must be true as far as it goes. Michael, being a Seraph, would know if > the reasons he distrusts Yves are true. He wouldn't know if he has all I do think it's also worth the note that Yves is -unique-, and by all evidence, predates the Symphony...since the best ANY Seraph (even Superiors, at least going by past rulings) can get is pure Symphonic Truth...Yves may just not show up. Which in and of itself, whether Yves is up to anything sneaky or not, would be enough to set the first Seraph on edge. ("No, I -DON'T- know. That's what bugs me. Anyone else, I KNOW, but not him.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:01:50 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels > inherently non-corporeal, it's because that's part of their whole > conception. What part are you missing? I'm missing where it has anything to do with what I've been trying to talk about. > (Granted, the wording about the subject's mind drifting off to the Marches > does leave that door open where celestials are concerned, but I'm pretty > sure it's not what the designer had in mind.) I'm sure it's not, either, but it's still there...it all works just fine if Kyrios can't take over Vessels, but if they can, it falls to pieces very fast. > >>>Sooo....why are Kyriotates, even less able to anchor to a single > Vessel than Shedim, able to anchor to a single Vessel, which Shedim > can't?<<< > Excuse me, but Huh? Alright, here's what I've actually been saying, since the point to all this seems to have gotten lost in record time. To start; Archangel Beth noted that Shedim can NOT take over Vessels, but that Kyriotates can. So; I haven't had any trouble with the fact that Kyriotates can't have Vessels of their own. I don't have any trouble with them being primarily Celestial beings. I don't have any trouble with certain Superiors being able to set them up with Vessel-like things. These are the three points that have been answered, but none of them were ever the problem. What I originally said was, BEING that Kyriotates are, like Shedim, notedly unable to build and support a Vessel, how can they take over someone else's? And secondarily, why CAN Kyrios, and CAN'T Shedim, when Shedim cause only about half as many internal conflicts with it? I then went on to note several specific holes it opens up that, if the ruling DOES go into the APG, are really going to need serious answers. It's just POSSIBLE that I'm the only IN player in the world who's going to notice all this, but given that it popped right into my head, I'm skeptical...and it's actually NOT built off of my particular, 'unique' view of Kyriotates, but rather off of their description in the book and the canon rulings given here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:12:08 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels > >>>Okay, so you displace them one at a time; logically, if a Kyrio > I think these interpretations are your own unique spin on Kyriotates. The > ideas that a celestial possessed by a Kyriotate can reappear in another > vessel, and that a Kyriotate can use less Forces than the subject's Force > total to occupy celestial vessels, has been presented nowhere else that I > am aware of. Well, no, it probably HASN'T been presented elsewhere, but given that the whole concept was only thrown up a couple days ago, I don't find that surprising. Do I need to cite you a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences wherein an esteemed Nobel prize winner presented the same difficulties before you'll give serious consideration? I'm not so much saying that it HAS to be this way...what I'm saying is that as the cosmology stands, there's no reason why it ISN'T; and so far, the only response I'm getting - from you, Beth, and Karakash, is, "Well, it's not," for no particular reason. I'm sorry if I seem a bit frustrated at this point, but in my world, the rulebook, per se, DOES NOT EXIST. When a Kyriotate tries to do something, Yves isn't going to show up and say, "Look, here, page 83, Song of Possession, your friend can't come back from the Marches. I think we can just presume your Resonance works about the same, and that because the book says so, they're stuck there, even though there's no explanation given." Kronos isn't going to tap a Shedim on his current shoulder and explain, "You've gotta understand...it's not explained anywhere, but under your description, it always says `host', while the Kyriotate description is a little broader, so while they can possess anything, you can only do humans...so leave those other Celestials alone. Got that?" If there's not an actual reason for it, it shouldn't BE there... and the only reason given is that the two just can't do Vessels, on account of not being as Corporeal as the others. Which is fair and works just great until someone says, "Except that actually, they can; they just can't own them." > possible interpretation, I suppose, but it's not canon. 'Course not, but as it stands right now, intending no offense, canon bites. Being that this particular aspect of canon has been specified as still a little fuzzy and, I gather, not actually gone to press yet, I was hoping it could get some further consideration. I don't care whether it's actually changed or just gets some kind of reasonable explanation added, but it needs SOMETHING. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:27:29 -0500 From: Jesse Rooeny Subject: Re: IN> Red Dwarf > >>>What is being looked for is clever, creative, and intellectual >>>English-language TV comedy produced in the United States. >> >>The Simpsons. >> > >Point to jo. (Matt Groenig is the anti-Nybbas!) > Uh, Matt Groening has not been really involved in the seris since the first season. - -Jesse ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #507 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.