From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 16 14:38:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21858 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:38:19 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA09126 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:00 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199712162023.OAA09126@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #519 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 519 In this digest: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Songs (Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> I need advice and answers Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> PK's Combat Rules (trying AGAIN) Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> One last time... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:05:09 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >> (1) "I think Agility should be part of what determins if you hit or not." >> >> How much agility does it take to swing a baseball bat at someone? (Myself, I >> think Large Weapon should be rolled against Precision too, but I wasn't >> asked.) You don't move very much, you're moving something else (the bat). > > Makes sense, but if Precision were used, I'd add a minimum >Strength column to the weapon charts. To use most larger weapons >effectively (ones heavier than a baseball bat, natch) it does take >a certain amount of raw strength just to control the damn thing. > True, but claymores aren't in common use these days. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:05:11 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Songs (Other Vessel Questions) - ---------- > From: Jason Corley > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Songs (Other Vessel Questions) > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 11:55 AM > > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > > Interesting... I almost buy Songs as an afterthought. Skills > > are _much_ more reliable (they are based on attributes, not forces) > > and usually less noisy. I almost always take at least two songs > > though (Healing is a good 'un!) > > > > > Two words: Numinous Corpus, Baby. > Ummm... but that's three words. :-) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:33:57 +0200 From: "Lassi Seppala" Subject: Re: IN> I need advice and answers [five-second turns] >Okay, this is the "you are actually attacking all the time, >but you roll once to see if in all the feinting and stuff you >actually land a hit" sort of rule. It's because fights with >one-second GURPS rounds take forever in gametime and no time >at all otherwise, and nobody ever stops to rest without adding >complicated rules. The "one-second"/"several-second" combat >round is something that has been hashed out forever on other >boards than this... It generally boils down to "a matter of taste." So you are attacking all the time with your Magnum .44 but only manage to fire once in five seconds. Because aiming isn't included in those five seconds this sounds a little strange. >If you don't like 5-second combat rounds, adjust to 1/2/3/4/10/30 >second combat rounds to suit. The Malakim in Black will not mind. I think I will. Thanks. Lassi Seppala lseppala@dlc.fi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:15:59 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > For 24 points worth of Discord, a Vampire gets 10 points worth of Demonic > abilities, can control Essence expenditure, and can learn Songs and > attunements. > And since eternal life is counterbalanced by soul death in the event of > your vessel ever getting fried (quite literally, if someone leaves the > window open), it really is quite a bad career move. Well, yeah. But IN takes a very different view of vampires than WW...WW vampires were intended to be powerful and about as sexy as a leech can get. Predators at the top of the food chain. Mysterious, immortal creatures who, even at their neophyte stage, far outclass mere humans. IN vampires are failed attempts at mummies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:23:52 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH! *boom* That was my head exploding, by the way. All over the walls. Now I have to go clean it up. It was something akin to Scanners, with more mess. Actually... I figured it was just a matter of time before the horror that is Tenshi Muyo invaded this mailing list. :) Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: It's all just a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap. - Cartman from South Park ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:36:28 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > > Makes sense, but if Precision were used, I'd add a minimum > >Strength column to the weapon charts. To use most larger weapons > >effectively (ones heavier than a baseball bat, natch) it does take > >a certain amount of raw strength just to control the damn thing. > > > True, but claymores aren't in common use these days. }:-{D Heh. That too. But have you ever tried swordplay? Just going through the warmup exercises for kendo will have your shoulders aching and sweat dripping from your brow before you are done. And those exercises are usually just simple, repetivitive drills. Sword back, sword down, sword back, sword down. (All kendo attacks are downward slashes of varying sorts...) Even trying to change the path of five pounds of metal (in a long shape) quickly requires quite a bit of strength. Some things (like foil) are in a special category since they have such a light blade. Even they, though, require a lot of wrist and arm strength to use quickly. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:53:23 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >Okay, so you don't feel that a stronger person does more damage than a > >weaker one. Gotcha. > > Under the current rules, they already -do.- Only when they go into overflow! I'm not talking about when the GM translates a miss as "You hit for no damage". Unless a person goes into overflow (13+ target number), their maximum damage is preset, regardless of their Strength. > A Str 3 fighting bare-fisted has a total Power of -5 under your system. This > means that, with (let's be generous and say 2 CorpForces) and Fight/2, they > would have a total chance of 15/36 to do a maximum of ONE POINT of damage, > which can then be Dodged. Excuse me? Str 3 = +(3/2) or +1 to damage. So instead of Power -3, they do Power -2. NOT Power -5! Where are you getting this?? > A Str 10 with Fight/3 gets a total of 0 or 1 fighting barefisted under your > system. They get anywhere from a minimum of 5/6 to full automatic chance to > do a maximum of seven points of damage, which can then be Dodged. Redneck...you are completely misunderstanding things. That's the only explanation. Let me try to clarify. Fists are Power -3. You add a bonus of 1/2 your Str, rounded down. Therefore, a Str 10 fighter has fists with a Power of +2. If he hits, he'll do between 3 and 8 points of damage. To be quite honest, I can't even figure out where you're getting your numbers from. I hope that I've clarified things better. If so, what do you think of the rules now? Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:00:11 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Small Wpn is Precision? Oh well, it should be Agility anyways. It > > uses the rules here. Guns don't. > > > Agility is being able to move quickly, not, I would submit, being able to > do things well. You can think of Precision as manual dexterity and > Agility as being speed. Which would make Small Weapons precision-based. > Of course, in my opinion, brass knuckles should be based on Fighting, not > Small Weapon. As I said to RG, I actually think basing it off Agility OR Precision would be the most fair. You need a good dexterity *and* manual dexterity to get a good shot in on a person. > > In the old system, you only get damage bonuses after you go past the > > autosuccess level! > > Untrue for hand fighting. There are three ways of getting bonuses which > bring the Power -3 to Power 0 (cumulatively). > > Fighting of 5 or 6. > Strength of 9 or higher. > Some form of protection, ie boxing gloves, iron-tipped shoes, etc. > You could probably rule that hobnails and steel gauntlets do additional > damage. True. I don't mind the last and only have minor problems with the first (not worthy enough to go into, trust me) but the second is rather arbitrary. Why doesn't a Str 8 person do more damage than a Str 1? > > Strength should affect damage, and should (at most) have SOME effect on > > whether you hit...as much effect as Agility does, at least. It should > > *not* be the SOLE determiner for if you hit or not. > > > I tend to agree. Those two things are the whole reason I'm trying to revise combat a bit. (1) Your Strength should have a definite (though not overpowering or unbalanced) effect on how much damage you do. (2) Strength should not be the sole determiner for whether you hit. Have you seen my full n' complete draft? I'd like to think it addresses these problems and takes care of them, but I'm looking for any constructive criticism. > I dunno about that. I remember the WOD games being criticised for how > hard it was to kill someone with firearms and someone said that in > actuality, the combat system overstated the likelihood of killing someone > with a shot. The only cases I remember of people being beaten to death in > real life were gang attacks with iron bars and baseball bats. It usually > took quite a while as well. A punch by someone reasonably good at > fighting hurts, but even the number of punches they can land in five > seconds usually isn't something it takes a week to recover from. (And > remember, that's what 3 hits is in real life.) That's why punches have a Power of -3; it's just real unlikly that a normal person is gonna put you into the hospital with a punch (though not fully impossible). Even with my damage bonus idea, a normal human never goes beyond Power 0 at the most (I don't consider a human with Str 8 "normal" :), and that's for a VERY buff human. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:59 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > straining? And you prefer a system that makes it *impossible* to build a > > character who SOMETIEMS misses but does decent damage? If so, these rules > > are not for you. Ignore them. > > > This is silly. Killing someone with your hands is hard. Thus the low > power involved. And it's also assumed, because a five second combat > round is an _abstraction_, that you're doing more than just throwing one > punch. It's measuring the chances that the cumulative effects of your > punches are doing damage. Killing someone with your hands *is* hard, yes. But for a high-Str celestial, it shouldn't be. A demon with Str 11 should be able to lay a normal person flat with one punch (maybe not KILL them, but knock 'em unconscious). Anyways, that wasn't my original point. High CD modifiers already happen. All one has to do is take an ungodly Str and a super level of Fighting, and you can get your Power up to +4 or more easily. But in doing so, you also make it so that you NEVER miss. What bothers me more than anything is a system that does not *allow* one to have a character who does high damage but misses occasionally. Right now, if I build a character that does the aforementioned +4 damage, that means that EVERY SINGLE TURN I will do 5-10 points of damage, minus however much my opponent dodges. I never do 0 damage, because I never miss, even though my Agility is 2 and my Precision is 1. Except for the rare (VERY rare) turns my opponent Dodges with a high enough CD, I always hit him. Why am I so good, just because I have a high Str? THat's silly. > > True, but why do they both do the same amount of damage (average) when > > they hit? And why doesn't the guy with Str/2, Agility/8 hit more often for > > effect. After all, once he "hits that guy's glass jaw" (a phrase I hear > > used often for when a wimp gets a CD of 6), he can keep hitting it again > > and again... > > > Confusion again. Agility makes a good runner, not a good fighter, except > in terms of your Dodge roll, which is an important ability that's being > overlooked. Agility and Precision govern control and coordination of your body. Strength governs...well, strength. Of these three attributes, which one has the *least* to do with the accuracy and speed of your punches? Okay now, which one, under current rules, is used to determine the accuracy and speed (i.e., whether you hit or not) of your punches? Problem. > _Precise_ muscle coordination is a feature of precision, not agility. The > Dexterity attribute is broken up in this system into two attributes, > Precision and Agility. > > Precision corresponds to Ars Magica's Dexterity. > Agility corresponds to Ars Magica's Quickness. > > Have you ever met people who aren't very good at running but have very > good hand-eye coordination? That is the difference between high Agility > and high Precision. Okay, so replace Agility with Precision in the statements above. Doesn't change my point one jot. Right now, Strength is being used as a measurement of coordination, reflexes, accuracy, and speed. It is not being used (except for that one "Strength 9 adds +1" rule) to determine damage. I see this as a bad thing. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:09 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >> > Makes sense, but if Precision were used, I'd add a minimum >> >Strength column to the weapon charts. To use most larger weapons >> >effectively (ones heavier than a baseball bat, natch) it does take >> >a certain amount of raw strength just to control the damn thing. >> > >> True, but claymores aren't in common use these days. }:-{D > > Heh. That too. But have you ever tried swordplay? Yes. Still, let us remember that such weapons were designed for use by Str/3 or Str/4 mortals. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:33:16 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > The only way in IN to make a character who can do > >decent damage is to make one that also hits EVERY time. You don't find the > >concept of characters who NEVER miss AND do great damage a little bit > >straining? And you prefer a system that makes it *impossible* to build a > >character who SOMETIEMS misses but does decent damage? If so, these rules > >are not for you. Ignore them. > > Your rules don't do that. Bull. Sample Character CORP. FORCES 3 Strength 8 Agility 4 Fighting/2 Combat roll: 8 or less Power of fists: +1 (instead of -3) This person hits most of the time but certainly misses every few punches. He does an average of 4.5 points of damage, where most humans (Str 2-3) do an average of 1.5 points of damage. > Because a bare fist, for the most part, does a certain amount of damage, and > no more or less, when used -properly.- A Str/2 character with a low Fight > level doesn't know how to use it properly. So my grandmother's (Str/1) fist does as much damage as a weightlifter's (Str/7) fist when it hits someone? Sorry, fails reality check. Stronger people do more damage than weaker people when they hit. Not always a LOT more, but on average, they do more. > >I disagree. Strongly. A person with a horrible Agility doesn't have the > >coordination to kick without losing balance. > > Coordination is not Agility, it's part of the Strength characteristic. Ahem. You're saying that Strength governs coordination? What the heck is Agility for then, besides speed? Why isn't Dodge based off Strength, then? And Acrobatics? No attribute with a name like "Strength" should be used to indicate coordination. That makes as much sense as having a "Perception" stat that governs how much you can lift. > >> So don't permit autosuccess. > > > >Why not? I didn't say I didn't like them. > > Yes you did, several times. You keep mentioning how the only way to get huge > bonuses is to get into autosuccess, or 'overkill', skill levels. That doesn't mean I hate autosuccesses. It means I want a combat system that makes more sense. It's only sensible that some characters should be able to dish out good damage without hitting every time. > Since you > give us a system in response which only makes overkill bonuses more extreme, Beg pardon? I don't see how. > and actively penalizes low Str characters, Again, I don't see how. You've shown a misunderstanding of my suggestions, so I can only assume these two comments are based on that misunderstanding. After all, I don't penalize *anyone*...at worst, a Str/1 character has a Power of -3, exactly the same as in the book. >I can only assume your protests > are due to a hatred of autosuccess. When you assume, Redneck........ (ya know the rest) > >Yes, it DOES take coordination > > coordination != agility Oh yeah. You say Strength == coordination. So what's next? Agility is your mind hits? :) > >Why do you argue about it? Why does it matter to you? I'm not a SJG > >employee...it's not like I'm gonna start changing Canon on you. And even > >if I did, it's like like you'd start using it. > > I argue because you bring the issue into a public forum and ask for > discussion. For my money, discussion ~= arguement if two people disagree on > the topics at hand. I feel sorry for you, then. I can discuss things with people without arguing, even when I disagree with them. The only reason I've even been at all defensive with you is that you HAVE been rather argumentative and that does prompt me to respond in kind. I'd like to get this back into "discussion and comments" instead of arguing. > If you want more realistic fighting, double the number of Characteristics, > calculate which ones affect attack and defense, designate damage bonuses for > certain parts of the body, define added power for various weapons... and > then write a computer program to keep track of it all because otherwise the > math will bring a combat to a screeching halt. Now you're just being silly and...I think it's called "straw man" (been a long time since that high school class), where you take what someone's trying to do, and blow it up to ridiculous proportions to poke holes in it. > The current combat system was intended to get combat OVER with as fast as > possible, to keep the pace of the game moving as quickly as possible. There > are multiple elements which could be (and some need to be) changed, but > 'realism' IMHO should not even be at issue. Reality is far more complex than > six-sided dice can accurately reflect. Why are you against such a minor and easy-to-use change in the combat system, then? Combat is over just as quickly, the rules are just as simple as the ones in the book, and it simulates combat *better*. What's the problem? I strongly suspect that the only reason you're opposed to this is that you're sick of discussion about IN combat, and therefore refuse to acknowledge ANY proposed changes or fixes. You keep labelling what I'm doing as "far too complicated and unecessary" when it's not complicated at all. CURRENT IN COMBAT Roll against your target number [Str + Fighting] Add the Power to the CD [base power, +1 if Str 9+, +1 if Fighting/5+] Target dodges [Agility + Dodge] MY SUGGESTION Roll against your target number [2xCF + Fighting] Add the Power to the CD [base power + 1/2 Str] Target dodges [Agility + Dodge] I'm afraid I don't see what's so hard and complicated about it. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:36:01 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >> >Okay, so you don't feel that a stronger person does more damage than a >> >weaker one. Gotcha. >> >> Under the current rules, they already -do.- > >Only when they go into overflow! I'm not talking about when the GM >translates a miss as "You hit for no damage". Unless a person goes into >overflow (13+ target number), their maximum damage is preset, regardless >of their Strength. > >> A Str 3 fighting bare-fisted has a total Power of -5 under your system. This >> means that, with (let's be generous and say 2 CorpForces) and Fight/2, they >> would have a total chance of 15/36 to do a maximum of ONE POINT of damage, >> which can then be Dodged. > >Excuse me? > >Str 3 = +(3/2) or +1 to damage. So instead of Power -3, they do Power -2. >NOT Power -5! Where are you getting this?? From your earlier post, where you said that a Str/9 would get +2 to Power and a Str/3 would get -2. I restated that, and you agreed with it. >> A Str 10 with Fight/3 gets a total of 0 or 1 fighting barefisted under your >> system. They get anywhere from a minimum of 5/6 to full automatic chance to >> do a maximum of seven points of damage, which can then be Dodged. > >Redneck...you are completely misunderstanding things. That's the only >explanation. Let me try to clarify. > >Fists are Power -3. >You add a bonus of 1/2 your Str, rounded down. > >Therefore, a Str 10 fighter has fists with a Power of +2. If he hits, >he'll do between 3 and 8 points of damage. To be quite honest, I can't >even figure out where you're getting your numbers from. I hope that I've >clarified things better. If so, what do you think of the rules now? > About the same as I did before- all they do is jack up the damage strong characters do radically beyond the ability of a weak character to withstand or return. They don't make combat more realistic in any meaningful sense, and IMHO they don't improve the old system. Also, you missed or ignored a major point of my post- players with high Strength will -still- have a better chance to hit than players with a low Strength, since Strength is defined by CorpForces available to allocate from. This system demands 4-Corpforce characters for -survival.- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:33 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >I did not ask anyone if they were against me fixing this problem. I don't > >care if they are. I am not addressing those people. > > It's not a matter of fixing the problem, but of how it is fixed. You said yourself that the current system works fine, and that you were opposed to this because it was unnecessary (and complicated; but that's *got* to be a misunderstanding). Don't second-guess yourself here. > >I am addressing the people who think that there IS a problem. They are out > >there. I have seen them. You have seen them. You know that they agree with > >me...agree that the way Strength, Agility, Hitting, and Damage are handled > >is nonintuitive and needs a little fix here and there. > > > >I ask THOSE PEOPLE... do you like my suggestions? If not, what could be > >changed to make it better? > > Well, if you want only people who agree with you to respond, it'll be a very > dull discussion. }:-{D Fine. I'm not trying to argue about whether there is a problem or not. There is one. I'm trying to fix it. I'd like feedback and suggestions. #ifdef ANALOGY I'm on a deserted island with a bunch of people. I want to build a boat and get off the island. Half the people start telling me, "Why are you doing that? This island isn't much, but we can live here comfortably! We shouldn't leave!" The other half say, "Yes, we should get off this island, but not with *that* kind of boat. You need to build up the sides and add a sail here," and, "You want to head south? Nonono, you've gotta head north to reach the mainland...here's what I think..." Guess which group I'm going to accept suggestions from? If you want to stay on the island, I couldn't care less. Enjoy the climate. I'm building a raft. All who have suggestions for this raft are welcome to contribute. All who just want to bark at me about how no raft needs to be built, how the island is perfect, or how I'm foolish for leaving, are certaly welcome to do so, but will be ignored. #endif Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:44:55 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> PK's Combat Rules (trying AGAIN) Okay, for some reason, it didn't make it through the first time. I don't know why. But people have been writing me and asking where they are! Obviously, I can't get much useful feedback unless people see them. I suspect majordomo might've eaten it. So I'm putting in Line-Eater-Food. At least ten lines. Scroll down. Oh, I also added an optional rule for Dodging. That one actually DOES add some complication to the rules *if used*. Feel free to ignore it; it's the other stuff that I'm really concerned about. It's just below. I hope this makes it through. CUT HERE In Nomine New Combat Rules Draft 1.0 by Pee Kitty In combat, the resolution of each strike depends on three questions. Will my punch hit him? How much damage will it do? Can he dodge it? This revision contains improved rules for handling these questions in an intelligent and playable manner. Corporeal combat is assumed here; other forms of combat substitute the appropriate Forces and characteristics, though the skills remain the same. Will my punch hit him? Or my knife? Or any other non-ranged weapon I use? The target number for the attacker in hand-to-hand combat is twice his Corporeal Forces plus Fighting skill. Combat with hand weapons uses the appropriate weapon skill instead of Fighting skill. If a skill is not known, default penalties apply. Combat with ranged weapons is a special case; use the skills as written. Rationale: Corporeal Forces, doubled, represents the average of Strength and Agility. Both traits are needed to successfully land a meaningful blow in combat. How much damage will it do? The Power of most attacks is shown on p. 62 of the In Nomine book. All non-ranged attacks add half the attacker’s Strength (rounded down) to their Power. For example, a demon with Strength 8 punches a human. A punch has Power -3 and the demon adds +4 for his Strength for a final Power of +1. Ignore the rule which states that a Strength of 9 or Fighting/5 add to Power; this rule replaces that one. Steel-toed boots or a roll of quarters still add +1 to Power. Rationale: Strength is raw physical power, which governs the damage one can do. Can he dodge it? Unless he does not see the attack coming, or he is concentrating (on a Song, for example) and does not want to stop concentrating, the opponent can attempt to Dodge by rolling against Agility plus Dodge skill. Default penalties apply if the Dodge skill is not known. Even ranged weapon attacks can be Dodged (though Acrobatics skill (q.v.) will not help in this case). The check digit of the Dodge is subtracted from the damage done by the attack; if this reduces damage to 0 or less, the attack did not hit. A special form of risk, “preemptive dodging”, may be used as well. A defender can begin dodging before the punch is followed through by guessing where the attacker will strike. The Dodge roll is made at -2 (-1 if the defender has Tactics/5 or better). On a success, if the check digit is equal to or higher than the attacker’s check digit (before adding Power), the attack misses completely. If the check digit is less, the attack hits normally. If the Dodge roll fails, the check digit is added to the damage done, as the defender Dodges right into the strike! Spending the turn “full-dodging”, and doing nothing else, adds +2 to any Dodge roll. Rationale: Agility governs how fast one can move and react physically. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:47:43 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Kevin Walsh wrote: >Killing someone with your hands *is* hard, yes. But for a high-Str >celestial, it shouldn't be. A demon with Str 11 should be able to lay a >normal person flat with one punch (maybe not KILL them, but knock 'em >unconscious). Anyways, that wasn't my original point. High CD modifiers >already happen. All one has to do is take an ungodly Str and a super level >of Fighting, and you can get your Power up to +4 or more easily. But in >doing so, you also make it so that you NEVER miss. What bothers me more >than anything is a system that does not *allow* one to have a character >who does high damage but misses occasionally. Um, could you please make up your mind? Are you bothered by autosuccess or not? >Right now, if I build a character that does the aforementioned +4 damage, >that means that EVERY SINGLE TURN I will do 5-10 points of damage, minus >however much my opponent dodges. I never do 0 damage, because I never >miss, even though my Agility is 2 and my Precision is 1. Except for the >rare (VERY rare) turns my opponent Dodges with a high enough CD, I always >hit him. Why am I so good, just because I have a high Str? THat's silly. You keep making this complaint, and keep forwarding a proposal that makes the damage even more outlandish. >Agility and Precision govern control and coordination of your body. >Strength governs...well, strength. Of these three attributes, which one >has the *least* to do with the accuracy and speed of your punches? Agility. Okay >now, which one, under current rules, is used to determine the accuracy and >speed (i.e., whether you hit or not) of your punches? Strength. Problem. > Not from where I sit. >Right now, Strength is being used as a measurement of coordination, >reflexes, accuracy, and speed. It is not being used (except for that one >"Strength 9 adds +1" rule) to determine damage. I see this as a bad thing. Raw strength can only do so much to boost damage- not just from a reality perspective, but from a gameplay perspective. If you give a +1 for every two points of Strength a character has, pretty quick you've got strong Celestials who do more damage with bare fists than with a revolver. Pretty quick, you've got a radical game imbalance whenever you send different leveled characters in battle. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:49:22 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer > ("Kris?") > > Uhm, whmmf wha... oh, it's you. > > ("I got a great idea for ya...") > > Gee, thank you so much. Your last great idea was to recast Final Fantasy III > with Ranma 1/2. > > ("You'll like this one. It's short.") > > Oh, is it. Whoopee. > > ("It's an In Anime trailer.") > > You're out of your non-corporeal little mind. > > ("Hear me out.") > > No. Let me sleep. > > (".... it's Tenchi...") > > .......................... > > ... okay, I'm listening. *deleted hilarious trailer/IN Washu* Okay Kris. Choose your punishment: Let me test the Song of Wedgies on you or I can try to make up IN stats for Eek the Cat. ;-) |Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com | |"So from now on I guess the operational phrase is 'trust no one.'" "No. | | Trust Ivanova, trust yourself, anybody else: Shoot 'em." -NSNR, Bab5 | |Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article.... | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >Excuse me? > > > >Str 3 = +(3/2) or +1 to damage. So instead of Power -3, they do Power -2. > >NOT Power -5! Where are you getting this?? > > From your earlier post, where you said that a Str/9 would get +2 to Power > and a Str/3 would get -2. I restated that, and you agreed with it. No no NO...I said a Str/9 would end up with Power +2 and a Str/3 would END UP with Power -2. Do the math. It's (base power) plus Str/2. Base power for fists is -3. - -3 plus half of 9 is +2. - -3 plus half of 3 is -2. > About the same as I did before- all they do is jack up the damage strong > characters do radically beyond the ability of a weak character to withstand > or return. They don't make combat more realistic in any meaningful sense, > and IMHO they don't improve the old system. Radically? The damage bonus you get is proportional to 1/2 your Strength. In the existing system, after overflow, it's proportional to your Strength directly...it goes up on a 1 for 1 basis. This way is LESS radical, not more! > Also, you missed or ignored a major point of my post- players with high > Strength will -still- have a better chance to hit than players with a low > Strength, since Strength is defined by CorpForces available to allocate from. This system considers both Strength *and* Agility for hitting a person, that's all. Strength therefore still helps, but it is no longer the sole determing factor. I didn't say it was a huge change. It's not. It's a simple, minor change that I feel makes more sense. > This system demands 4-Corpforce characters for -survival.- Show me why. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:14:37 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> One last time... To everyone on the list... Don't worry. After this, one of two things will happen. (1) RG and I will stop arguing and start talking sensibly about the subject matter, or (2) RG and I will stop arguing because I stop replying. On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Um, could you please make up your mind? Are you bothered by autosuccess >or not? I've always had my mind made up. I'm not bothered by autosuccess. I am bothered by a system that REQUIRES autosuccess to do good damage. > >Right now, if I build a character that does the aforementioned +4 damage, > >that means that EVERY SINGLE TURN I will do 5-10 points of damage, minus > >however much my opponent dodges. I never do 0 damage, because I never > >miss, even though my Agility is 2 and my Precision is 1. Except for the > >rare (VERY rare) turns my opponent Dodges with a high enough CD, I always > >hit him. Why am I so good, just because I have a high Str? THat's silly. > > You keep making this complaint, and keep forwarding a proposal that makes > the damage even more outlandish. Hello? Look, I'm quite honestly getting rather sick of this. You obviously do NOT understand and are not TRYING to understand anything I'm saying. You have not read or understood my rules suggestion, BUT YOU COMMENT ANYWAYS! Do the damn math. Even with a Strength of 12 (TWELVE, the HIGHEST it can go), your total damage bonus would be +3 (THREE). That is less than +4. And unless you sank SIX forces into Corporeal, it is MORE difficult to reach overflow, because 2xCorpForces is going to be less than Strength 12. So will you please explain just what the hell you're talking about? Please feel free to actually re-read what I said first. If you don't read and understand what I wrote and write, you are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing. I've got better things to do than that. I'll give you one more chance to show that you are honestly trying to have a meaningful discussion instead of a pointless argument before I give up. > >Agility and Precision govern control and coordination of your body. > >Strength governs...well, strength. Of these three attributes, which one > >has the *least* to do with the accuracy and speed of your punches? > > Agility. And you don't see this as a problem. Fine. Then continue using the old system. As I've already said, your perspective is so.....um, different....from mine that it's obvious you won't like a darn thing about it. Because it operates under the assumption that Agility governs the body's agilty, and that Strength governs the body's strength. > Raw strength can only do so much to boost damage- not just from a reality > perspective, but from a gameplay perspective. If you give a +1 for every two > points of Strength a character has, pretty quick you've got strong > Celestials who do more damage with bare fists than with a revolver. I've already got that, actually. I'm not doing anything the system isn't ALREADY doing...I'm just doing it in a more sensible way. Sample IN CHaracter CORP F: 4 Strength 12 Agility 6 Fighting/6 ROLL TO HIT: Automatic DAMAGE: CD + 5 Same character, my rules ROLL TO HIT: Automatic DAMAGE: CD + 5 At the highest possible level, the results are the same. At a more reasonable level.... well, let's see... Sample IN Character CORP F: 3 Strength 9 Agility 3 Fighting/5 ROLL TO HIT: Automatic DAMAGE: CD + 1 Same character, my rules ROLL TO HIT: 11 DAMAGE: CD + 1 > Pretty quick, you've got a radical game imbalance whenever you send > different leveled characters in battle. Oh yeah...I can definitely see how my system is so much more overpowering than the existing one. My ghod...I simply must cut back all these insane bonuses! See what I mean? You haven't bothered to figure anything out for yourself. You haven't drafted up any samples and LOOKED at the results. You just assumed. This, more than anything, is what annoys me. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #519 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.