From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 18 09:21:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31575 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:21:18 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA18784 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:04:33 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:04:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199712181504.JAA18784@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #525 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 525 In this digest: Re: IN> Malakim & Lilim Re: Forces (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 IN> A Movie Trailer Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 IN> Australia: Pointing the bone of contention Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs IN> Archangel of Darkness Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire Re: DVPBEM Fluff (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> Songs (Other Vessel Questions) Re: Funky Vessels (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 Re: IN> Soldiers of God question IN> Re: IN- Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 Re: IN> Soldiers of God question Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 Re: IN> Combat, HP, et al Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire Re: IN> Merry Christmas Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire IN> Non-Canon alternate Body Hits Re: Malkakim & Evil (Re: IN> capturing an angel) Re: IN> Malakim & Lilim Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:41:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim & Lilim > >>>One more bit of correspondance - both are originally the > creation of a single superior. The Malakim are from Uriel, the > Lilim are from Lilith.<<< > > No. Uriel did not create the Malakim -- he was just the first > angel to *become* a Malakite. Well, it says he was the first of the Malakim, and the one that made them pure (Marches, pg 5). That is at least a strong implication for his being the first one to make others. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:41:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: Forces (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) > >Oh, fine. Now they tell me... > > > >(I'm playing a Kyriotate of War with 2 Celestial Forces. Lets just > >say finding new hosts is a pain...) > > (Actually, since she doesn't *need* a host to function (the vessel > that the Kyrios of War get), I thought it was a rather cool concept. > And she can manage such misleading things if she wants. Of course, > she wants to be the Illuminati Spy Network all on her lonesome, so > there are some difficulties here... O;> ) She follows the basic concept of a lot of my characters. Screw yourself, and beat the GM to the punch... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:41:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 > >So than that begs the question, what is anime? > > Japanese animation. Stuff like G-Force, or Sailor Moon. Only > subtitled and not plot-hacked to death. (What plot there is -- > there's a lot of anime out there that is kind of vague on plot, but > big on explosions, violence, and fan service (aka gratuitious nudity > or semi-nudity or tight clothes, etc.). We also won't mention hentai... > Dominion Tank Police is much much fun, and only gets a little > plot-weird towards the end. This was my introduction to anime, and I have to say I wasn't all that impressed. It was cute, but... Anyway. We won't even think about In Anime: Ranma 1/2. It's just too evil... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:01:14 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: IN> A Movie Trailer While I can still get away with this, here's my tribute to a movie series I've gone on a crash course of in the past month, with a new installment coming along soon... A black screen. NARRATOR: Over the years, there have been many great villains... A circle crosses the screen, showing pictures of Julius No, Auric Goldfinger, Scaramanga, Katanga, Blofeld... and ends with a figure shooting at the spot, which weaves, then expands out to fill the screen. NARRATOR: But this time, Agent 007 faces the ultimate enemy. James Bond stands on a precipice, faced by a red-suited man with dark hair, goatee, and horns. LUCIFER: I'm sorry, Mr. Bond, but you're in Hell. I'm afraid there will be no escape for you this time. James Bond music, sounding as if done by NIN, starts. Scenes include 007 rapelling into a pit, flames visible in the bottom; chaotic riot scenes in some major city, as Calabim move through; Felix Leiter, in wheelchair, fires rockets from his artificial leg at an approaching demon; Bond's BMW jumps from a cave, a wave of fire following; Lilith and Bond roll over, Lilith ending up on top. LILITH: You're going to owe me for this, James. Big Time. BOND: Well, I always try to pay my debts. Additional cuts with Haggenti working his way toward Bond; Michael leading a contingent of Malakim through Hell' gates; Kronos confronting Bond, who has his PPK pointed at the Demon Prince. BOND: Goodbye, I'll see you in Hell. The screen goes black with the gunshot sound. Music ends. IN NOMINE: The latest adventure of James Bond 007. alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "I do not want to be devoured by a symbol of monarchy!" -- KGB Chief, "Casino Royale" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:27:20 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Neon Genisis Evangelion, which is Illuminated and has a really > cool opening themesong thing.) Eva is coolness incarnate. The only problem is finding it subbed, rather than dubbed. (Dubbed anime is the work of the Antichrist.) > Dirty Pair is one of the "plot? what plot? who needs a plot?" sort, > often, but is still really really cool. (Kei and Yuri, special ops > with Jinx.) Project EDEN was rather intellectual, for a DP movie. Speaking of DP, ever since I wrote Lovely Angels of the Wind I've been supressing a dark urge to do up stats for Keiel and Yuriel. Should I continue to listen to my better judgement, or should I succumb -- nay, - -dive- into temptation? > Dominion Tank Police is much much fun, and only gets a little > plot-weird towards the end. Ghost in the Shell. Run, do not walk, to your video store and rent it. Watch it multiple times. It's -that- good. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:09:27 -0600 From: ehp Subject: IN> Australia: Pointing the bone of contention On the subject of Tethers and the real world places they attach, here are some suggestions for Aussieland. Land of the Dreamtime Australia has been the primary real world battleground between Beleth and Blandine for 20,000 years. Now, with the arrival of the white man in the oh so recent past, Beleth is begining to gain an upper hand, at least away from the pockets of civilization that gather arround the edges of the continent. David has several strong points here abouts, and always has, as do Jordi and Novalis, but the last two are begining to slowly loose ground as time continues and Blandine's holdings slip more and more towards her opposition. In the cities, and in numerous places of the country side, Vapula's creations run rife, with the occasional assistance of Haagenti (rape and pilliage that land, leave nothing behind... devour it!) and Belial (and under him the arch-feind of Bushfires). Jean has been asked to take the cities under his very busy wing, but he simply does not have the time for it as much as he would like. Nevertheless, there have been a few moments of triumph... There are many places where one can slip into Dreams even still, if one has the eyes to look. The odd water hole here... rock outcropping there... Suburbia in the outer reaches of the cities... but now there are many more tethers to the side of nightmares. Abandoned open cut mines. Violated rainforests. Blasted deserts. Salt lakes, reminiscent of the land onto which Lucifer fell. Old abandoned factories and steel works. Uranium mines. Carefully placed hyroelectric dams... Sydney All Archs have their own little locations. Laurence tried to gain a safe foothold here in the 1800s, and more than enough churches are scattered about. Halfway through this century, the greatest triumph of Jean and Eli's, the Opera House, was built. And even to this day, it remains a powerful source of inspiration and shows remarkable steps in the science of architecture. The remarkable acoustics have been said to enhance the power of Songs sung within the Halls. The external design of the building has become a positive influence and inspiration on all in the CBD. Nearby, the Royal Botanical Gardens, is one of the remaining sanctuaries for Novalis in the Sydney area. Jordi's main tether in the region, Taronga Zoo, is still being maintained at its former power, but most of that beings attentions have been removed from the city confines and distributed out to the Dubbo Zoo, which is one of the major areas attempting revitalization of endangered species in the state of New South Wales. Janus holds sacred the Gap, and North and South heads of the Harbour. The winds play with joy in the opening into the magnificent harbour. David has his Sydney tether at the closed Brickworks in Newtown Park, which has now been made a Heritage area, and is the site of many festivals and much kite flying. The other major tether in the city is Rookwood Cemetary, A necropolis so large that it has its own zip code. The remarkable Arch of this area is Blandine, whose influence can be felt in the twilight hours strongest, and seen upon the surreal sculptures and headstones, as well as the ornately kept feilds of green and stone, mingling in harmony. While a place of loss, the cemetary is also a place of reminding of what was good, and of hope for continuance byond life. It also has one of the most remarkable spreads of denominations and religions, closely mingled into one humanity. On the other side... Through the influence of Kobal, the Olympic site was chosen. Not only did this 'reclaim an area of Sydney that had lain fallow for many years' but it 'removed a blemish upon the eye from the beautiful city'. Essentially, the site was a massive slaughterhouse and garbage dump that had finally come to rest, and had become home to an endagered species or two since it fell into disuse. The opportunity for Jordi to reclaim the land was near, until Kobal took steps. The ironies implicit in the 'relocation' of the tiny frogs and their habitat, not to mention the fact that the entire world would be watching athletes perform on landfill with some of the most toxic chemical wastes buried away from the eyes of humanity pleased him greatly. He is still hoping to organize a leak or two in time for the opening ceremonies... Asmodius took steps to try to obscure the influence of the Opera house by organizing a rezonement of the land near it, turning it residential, and then pushing through development of high rise appartments to dampen its view and grip upon the forshores. The move has almost worked, but has not as yet built a tether... Beleth has in her grasp a few small islands, one in Botany Bay, another is Fort Denison, in the centre of the harbour. Once prisons or insane assylums, there is hollow rememberance of atrocities commited against all kinds of people in the echoing buildings upon them. Vapula delights in La peruse and the oil refineries and shipping port. An area of delicious technology and inhumanity, the sterilized lighting illuminates the night, showing the vile gasses and pollution being churned into the air. Haagenti has sway over the sewage plant and outfalls... what could be more gluttenous than pointless waste being churned out (occasionally raw) to ruin the magnificent foreshores of the city... The conflicts between Haagenti's councils and the activists of Jordi and Novalis are nearly legendary... in political circles. Belial has many small tethers... in national parks, in back yards, where ever there is a barbeque or incinerator, there is a chance that Belial has put his servitors in place. No major tethers are needed... but there is an area of the blue mountains so badly blackened and burned from the fires at the turn of the century that nothing ever grows there... And it is watched by one group of Fire fighters that always seem to get to bushfires in the National forest first... just before they flame up out of control. :) Evan Hoping other Aussies got contributions for their area... Jesus built my car. Its a love affair, Mainly Jesus, and my Hot Rod. Ministry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:14:21 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs At 18:54 17/12/97 -0600, you wrote: > > >From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) > >>A balseraph has to believe its own lies before it can invoke its resonance. >>So if it was trying to persuade a dangerous-looking angel that it was trying >>to redeem, yes truly, honestly, would I lie to you ... and the angels could >>keep it talking for long enough to get it to a superior, would it actually >>redeem? > >Well, I'd just point out that the Balseraph attunement is to get someone >else to believe what the Balseraph says. Yep, but the book does say: 'In order to lie, a Balseraph first creates an entire reality within himself in which the untruths he tells are true - not COULD be true, but ARE true, MUST BE true.' Still, I think I agree that no Balseraph with a brain could justify that kind of outrageous lies about itself (it'd probably just try to convince the angels that one of its 'friends' wanted to redeem but needed them to help it or something). Does look as if they do need decent intelligence to function, otherwise any angel with decent debating skills could have one tied up in knots of dissonance in no time (given that a standard debating tactic is to try to get your 'opponent' to contradict themself.) > >And not -everything- a Bal says is a lie.... }:-{D I guess they can accidentally hit on a truth from time to time ;-) Not as if the Bal knows the differemce. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:42:39 +0100 From: d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com Subject: IN> Archangel of Darkness I had a really strange thought yesterday. Itīs about a possible Archangel of Darkness. I assume that if there was an Archangel of Light, there had to be an Archangel of Darkness. And because they are opposites to each other, there Words are opposite too. So, Lucifers Word was Free Will, then the Word for Darkness has to be something like Blind Obedience (which is a sort of darkness). Because of his Word, Lucifer was destined to fall. But the Archangel of Darkness would and could no fall, because of his obedience. So, now there is an angel of Light in Hell and an angel of Darkness in Heaven. Isnīt that ironic? :-) Donato ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:25:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire > >It depends on definition. My definition of cruelty is 'deriving pleasure > >from the suffering of others.' Gabi's Servitors don't have to worry about > >cruelty to demons- IIRC, that's specifically permissible- but cruelty to > >humans, or to other Angels, I could see in Angels who see themselves as > >promoting God's Will. > "It is the role of Gabriel's Cherubim to burn those who, within the last year, have horribly betrayed someone close to them. Look for them, smiling, outside divorce and custody courts." ...and under Kyriotates... "Unlike her Elohim, these angels enjoy the punishments they inflict upon the wicked. After all, they're helping people." (p119, under choir attunements, no challenge intended to copyright, quoted purely for the purpose of making a point, etc.) Does that sound cruel to you? It does to me. And note that Gabriel's servitors don't have to refrain from being cruel themselves, except for Elohim and, to an extent, Mercurians. It seems like being cruel to the cruel is just fine, or she lets her Servitors believe that, at any rate. > I think this comes up against how the GM is seeing things again. > In our universe, even the Dominicans aren't generally *enjoying* > being mean to various angels. I would say myself, especially Dominicans. After all, they have to be more careful than almost anyone. They have to try to make sure they have been neither too lenient nor too strict, and they have to have proof of wrongdoing that will satisfy Dominic. A horrible job, and I can't see any of them who aren't ripe for Falling enjoying it. They don't go down > and poke Creationers with hot pokers and ask them to yell for their > Boss and *enjoy* it. > I reckon it'd be dissonant to do that even without enjoyment if they didn't have proof that those Creationers used hot pokers themselves. > > >Amazingly enough, I don't think Dommie is cruel. He's callous, but not cruel. > > I'm not even sure "callous" is the word I'd use. Focused. Black-and-white. > Ruthless, even. But not callous, quite. The trial, the Judgment, is all. > I'd agree that he's ruthless, but then, so is every other Word-bound Celestial on either side. They have to be, because otherwise their Word will die, and they will die with it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:26:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: DVPBEM Fluff (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Can I take it that the positions have been filled? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:40:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Songs (Other Vessel Questions) > >In terms of skill replacement, I don't think anything beats the Corporeal > >Song of Tongues. Why bother picking up several different languages when > >you have that? > > Because sometimes it's nice to be able to pretend that you > can't understand/speak a language, instead of having every > word out of your mouth be in the Universal Translation mode? > I generally can't afford to take languages, not with each one as a seperate skill, so it's just a (minor, imho) advantage lost. Of course, even with it on, you don't have to say anything, just sit there shaking your head and emoting incomprehension. > But I am starting to go for skill-high, but a few Songs known at > very high (4-6) levels, and 1-3 Songs known at low levels, for > future improvement. > > Skills are quiet, after all... > I have two exceptionally skill-heavy characters. One of them is even going to be knowledge-heavy when I figure out what Discords will be appropriate for her. Neither has bought additional attunements. One has no Songs at all, the other only has Corporeal Tongues, at level 2. Both have high-level Roles, and both have a number of overkill scores in abilities I reckon are important for them. The one with the level 6 hit-man role is probably the most Symphony-silent, though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:47:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Funky Vessels (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) > At 2:29 PM +0000 12/16/97, Hart, Joanna wrote: > >>Servitors of Andrealphus > >>probably have complete control over certain bits of anatomy -- and > >>may have extra muscle-groups for more, ah, precise control! > > > > > >Ditto for servitors of Beleth... > > *They* have *teeth*. In odd places. > > Shouldn't that cost them character points? I can see it now, Numinous Corpus: Vagina Dentata. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:55:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 > Ah, so then it's okay to unveil why in my campaign, Marc hates Lilim, and is > the only Archangel that flatly refuses to accept them as servitors. :) > > Marc hates Lilim because they are fundamentally incompatible with the divine > word of Trade. IMC, capital-T Trade happens when two (or more) people come > to an agreement without constraint or coercion. Since the core of the Lilim > resonance is the coercive power of the geas, Marc sees this as a perversion > of his word and therefore refuses to employ the Lilim. (Okay, if a Lilim > promised to never lay another geas, ever, Marc might hire her, but only a > masochist -- I mean, dedicated roleplayer -- would want to try it.) > Brilliant. Except that we have to now assume that Marc is opposed to all regulation, no matter how beneficial it might be for individual businesses to know that people are going to be made to pay, since regulation is a form of compulsion. Or, if you take it that knowledge of the regulations when entering into a deal constitutes acceptance of them, can you take it that as long as the Lilite tells someone that they will extract a geas in return for the favour, that the other partner in the deal believes in the geas, and accepts it as a condition of the deal, that that constitutes trade? And does that Lilite have to geas herself not to impose further geasanna, or will Marc just accept her word? And do Marc's Servitors have servants? After all, they have to make Will rolls to resist commands... > > Oddly, it's Dominic, and to a lesser extent Michael, who end up with the > Bright Lilim IMC. But an explanation would be a too-long digression. > > You can't stop there. More. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:02:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question > Lilith is also not a descendant of Adam and Eve who condemmed their > descendants into a Fallen state, it you take one way of considering it. One thing that has to be noted in this context is that Lilith might be considered to be naturally immortal, even apart from the effects of having a Word. After all, Death came with the Fall, didn't it? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:55:22 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 >> Marc hates Lilim because they are fundamentally incompatible with the divine >> word of Trade. IMC, capital-T Trade happens when two (or more) people come >> to an agreement without constraint or coercion. Since the core of the Lilim >> resonance is the coercive power of the geas, Marc sees this as a perversion >> of his word and therefore refuses to employ the Lilim. OK, I'm pretty much convinced, Neel ;-) (I like Marc) I think the problem with the geas is mainly that the actual form the geas will take isn't defined when it is created, which puts the other party into the position of being forced to buy a pig in a poke. I think Marc might take Lilim but would force dissonance on them if they didn't inform a victim of precisely what the geas would be used for when it was created, and give them the choice of whether to take the deal or not. Trade is involved when someone says 'You do this for me and I will do that for you', NOT 'I'll do that for you and.. I'll let you know at some unspecified time in the future what you can do for me'. >Brilliant. Except that we have to now assume that Marc is opposed to all >regulation, no matter how beneficial it might be for individual >businesses to know that people are going to be made to pay, since >regulation is a form of compulsion. Nah, I think he supports and underpins the concept of the free self-regulating market, and therefore supports any regulation which is necessary to ensure that the markets really are free. ie. anti-monopoly laws, anti-cartel laws, anti-insider dealing laws. He probably also supports laws which empower the workforce (ie. trade union laws, equality in the workplace, equality in the marketplace, equal opportunities/ education etc.) >And do Marc's Servitors have servants? Sure, and they get a fair days pay for a fair days work ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:21:19 -0500 From: "Joel Mathis" Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question > > Lilith is also not a descendant of Adam and Eve who condemmed their > > descendants into a Fallen state, it you take one way of considering it. > > One thing that has to be noted in this context is that Lilith might be > considered to be naturally immortal, even apart from the effects of > having a Word. After all, Death came with the Fall, didn't it? I'm bustin' out with the theology here. Death came because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. When they gained morality the concept of sin and rebelling against God came into existance. (Lilith pre-dates them, but the Fall does not since no one fell until after the book of Job or approximately 4000BC). Without purity it became possible for them to die and they passed the original sin on down the line. All of this makes Lilith a bit odd in the Celestial scheme of things. Since she has sinned and does have knowledge of her actions, I would assume it would be possible for her to die. But, on the other hand, perhaps the problem with her to begin with was that God created the first wife of adam to be more Celestial than mortal. Joel Mathis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:32:37 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel > At the GM's evil option, certain drugs (LSD?) may thwart a > celestial's ability to go celestial. Some may even leave him > groggy but functional otherwise. I have ruled, and have used, tranquilizers and needles full of morphine to keep celestials in one spot for long periods of time. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:47:33 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 > Oddly, it's Dominic, and to a lesser extent Michael, who end up with the > Bright Lilim IMC. But an explanation would be a too-long digression. No it wouldn't. I'd like to hear your rational for Dominic. I know the rational for Michael. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:54:08 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Combat, HP, et al On Dec 17, 4:13pm, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Combat, HP, et al > Here's a new idea, seems kind of simple to me: > > Limit a Character's Vessel level to no more than his Corporeal Forces. > > Comments? The vessel level isn't the biggest problem, it's the CorpForces. CorpForces applies to Body Hits _and_ it usually gets funneled into Strength. In retrospect, I think one of the reasons vessel level exists is to give more Body Hits to celestials that _don't_ have high CorpForces! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:00:03 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 > Dirty Pair is one of the "plot? what plot? who needs a plot?" sort, > often, but is still really really cool. (Kei and Yuri, special ops > with Jinx.) Jinx seems like such a... MILD... term to use here. Well, I guess if you wrote it in fifty foot tall letters of fire, the fuller impact might be conveyed. =) Actually Kei and Yuri in In Nomine sounds like a lot of fun! You could even have two versions, the 'Lovely Angels' who are angels that constantly get into trouble and the 'Dirty Pair' who are specially designed demons whose _purpose_ is to cause all the misery that follows them. The 'Dirty Pair' version might even think they are Angels! (Howabout a Balseraph and a Habbalite? Two Habbalah? I guess any demon might have a delusion or two as long as they do their job right...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:03:20 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire > I think this comes up against how the GM is seeing things again. > In our universe, even the Dominicans aren't generally *enjoying* > being mean to various angels. It's just their job to make sure > that they don't come to a Bad End, and they'll do what they need > to and get satisfaction at a job well done. They don't go down > and poke Creationers with hot pokers and ask them to yell for their > Boss and *enjoy* it. This is the tack I take. Just like a doctor (or, from Dommie's POV, a vet) must inflict pain for the greater good of the patient, sometimes Dominic's agents might have to do the occasional bit of damage. The bits being damaged might not enjoy it but they really don't have the objectivity to judge properly, right? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:03:03 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Merry Christmas On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > David Skogsberg wrote: > > > So I'm a little early in my well-wishing. Sue me. I'm going to Australia > > come Friday. > > You'll be sorry!!! It's something like 35 degrees Celcius here at the > moment (in Farenheit, that's roughly 'way too hot'), and it's not a pleasant > heat. The system shock could kill you... Hey, at least it'll beat -5 deg Celsius that it is here... Anyway, I know what to do[1]. cd [1]: Drink lots of water. Duh. - -- cd skogsberg | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | \\\\\\ | Bringing hedgehogs | \\\\\\\\__o | (sporadically) to the | _\\\\\\\\'/__|_common folk since 1996.__| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:30:13 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire >Just like a doctor (or, >from Dommie's POV, a vet) must inflict pain for the greater >good of the patient, sometimes Dominic's agents might have >to do the occasional bit of damage. The bits being damaged >might not enjoy it but they really don't have the objectivity >to judge properly, right? I look at it this way. Fear is a tool. Pain is a tool. If even one angel can be prevented from falling by proper use of those tools then the tools are justified. Agents of judgement don't enjoy being hated, and they don't enjoy causing pain or fear unnecessarily, but they know that they have to sacrifice any selfish desire to be liked by other angels in order to properly do their jobs. Its a difficult, friendless path to walk, and they aren't even allowed to look more gently on other servitors of the same word. Probably Dominic gives them pep talks in his weekly briefings. Someone has to. But he also knows that he can't even go easy on his own angels, as that would betray their trust also. They're a dedicated, disciplined bunch and I'm sure he's very proud of them, although he wouldn't admit it. Still, they do act in the knowledge that when they put another angel to the question, it will have a fair chance to present any mitigating circumstances and if it is truly innocent then it needn't be afraid. My feeling is that the composition of any triad is: a seraph & a cherub (as per book) and the third member is always of the same choir as the accused, in order that they might fairly judge what 'a reasonable member of that choir' would have done in the circumstances. That way you can guarantee that an angel will always be judged by at least one of their own. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:40:02 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> Non-Canon alternate Body Hits > >Or you could have one person in the team with Ethereal or Celestial > >Entropy who will laugh his/her head off as (s)he blasts the imbecile who > >thought it was a useful idea to have 3 non-Corporeal Forces. > > Well, the one *I* was thinking of was Duke Hamet, from the Feast of > Blades adventure in the GM Pack. No starting-level character *there*. > And then there was the fight we had with Huzzriel -- we took off about > 30-40 hits, between the Ofanite with Generator (and a van), and > the Kyriotate of Jean with NC: Acid and a habit of possessing > people's clothes... And Huzzie had some 40-50 hits left by the > time we fled the scene because the mundane cops were showing up. > > With 9-Forcers or so, yeah, there are trickier ways around things. > With 12+ Forcers? Owch. Owch. Owch. I've been pondering my alternate (non-canon, of course) Body Hits rule and I've got some numbers now. Body Hits=2*CorpForces*Level for celestials. This would _greatly_ contract the range of Body Hits, yet still give celestials a clear advantage. (Mortals get Toughness+1 instead of Level.) Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Tough0 Tough1 Tough2 Tough3 CF1 2 4 6 8 10 12 CF2 (4) (8) 12 16 20 24 CF3 6 12 (18) 24* 30 36 CF4 8 16 24 32 40 48 CF5 10 20 30 40* 50 60 CF6 12 24 36 48 60 72* The problem I ran across is that mortals get seriously hosed by this. A Str/4 CF/2 mortal under the current rules gets 8 hits while under this plan they only get 4. Ah, but I said to myself (the person who listens more often =) ) why not let Soldiers get a free level of Toughness? It makes sense since we've given them other advantages. Regular mortals can still drop like flies, but Soldiers are supposed to be a bit tougher (especially PCs!) By the above chart, I figure the average angel would have CF/3 and Level3... 18 Body Hits. Enough to take 5 average attacks (without dodging) and still keep going. In an 'average' fistfight, this would be about 18 attacks. A semi-resilient mortal (CF/2 Tough/0) has 4 hits and can take 1 attack or 4 punches before falling. An average soldier (CF/2 Tough/1) would have 8 Body Hits. The new high end is much contracted for celestials (still pretty impressive!) I don't consider 72 too high since anyone that has maximum CorpForces and a Vessel/6 is probably one tough dude! The new maximum for a normal human (CF/3 Tough/3) 24. The new max for a soldier (CF/5 Tough/3) is 40. Justifications: By using both CorpForces and Strength, it becomes very easy to make uber- characters since the stats are multiplied together for Body Hits and Strength comes from CorpForces! By using CorpForces straight, I think it models total body resilience better and avoids the Str*CorpForces thing. Vessel levels become more valuable in comparison with the current system. Comments welcome! (Although on this list, I don't think I could _stop_ people from commenting!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:45:13 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: Malkakim & Evil (Re: IN> capturing an angel) > As soon as possible, pick up the APG, which has a discussion about > Malakim and evil and stuff... I heartily second that! The APG is chock full of stuff on all the choirs and other things. Despite the name, it's probably more useful for GMs than players (though players won't lose out by getting it!) > On APG49, "A *temporary* alliance that offers an opportunity to > erase greater evil is acceptable." (Just don't hang around afters, > if you're a demon.) "If a Malakite is forced to choose *which* of > 2 evils will escape, he earns no dissonance for choosing the lesser!" Aaaaaaah! Page references! I want my copy! Aaaaah! O;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:51:22 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Malakim & Lilim > Well, it says he was the first of the Malakim, and the one that made > them pure (Marches, pg 5). That is at least a strong implication for > his being the first one to make others. I guess a better way of putting it is that Uriel was the first _Archangel_ to create Malakim. He, himself, was created by God. =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:59:18 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs Oooooh, an interesting thought just occured to me. What if, really, really, really deep down there was a Balseraph that DID want to Redeem? He makes up this 'lie' on the spur of the moment to escape some hideous demise at the hands of an angel. This could make for some _really_ interesting situations (especially if the Bal was talking to a Seraph). "Damnit! My resonance must be out of whack!" All the while, the Balseraph, thinking his truth to be a lie, on some level, congratulates himself for weaseling his way out of a jam without knowing the full truth. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #525 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.