From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 26 20:47:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03764 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:47:17 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA05750 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:38:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:38:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199712270238.UAA05750@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #532 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 532 In this digest: IN> Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IN> We interrupt this mailing list... Re: IN> Zina, Free Lilim IN> Song of Stability IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:26:08 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Blame Beth as much as me for this list of relevant Superiors and their opinions on a certain series of comic books and films... The ArchDean stacks the comic collections. Blandine pencils in comments about the nature of hope, and building a bright new future. Christopher frowns thoughtfully at the action figures. David says "It looks silly, but they teach teamwork." Dominic wants more efficient law and order. Eli adores it. "Hey, man, just think about it. Turtles. Pizzas. Ninjas. And all for the sake of love." Gabriel peers at them, murmuring, "The patterns of the universe, etched upon their shells. And they pound the cruel." Janus is bouncing. "Sequels sequels I want more sequels! Yeah!" Jean looks aghast at the scientific fallacies in the portrayal of radiation poisoning. Jordi says, "It should have been wolves." Laurence mutters about why they couldn't all have been using swords. Litheroy's team comes in with the floodlights. Marc mutters, "Make sure they're seen to pay for it." Michael works on talking to Splinter _before Yves_. Novalis puts her feet up and watches. "It's very violent, but it's about friendship, and affection, and loyalty..." Yves considers giving Splinter a library in Part 4. Zadkiel considers that they do try to protect the worthy. Alaemon's arm comes out of a manhole. Andrealphus just holds his head and cries. Asmodeus infiltrates the sewers to emplace cameras and agents. Baal drops by to have a word with the Shredder about more effective organisation and tactics. Beleth tries to get the villains to be more villainous. Belial mutters, "Napalm the sewers. It's the only way to be sure." Fleurity grins at the stuff you can put on pizza. Haagenti thinks they're *his* folks. Mmmmmm, pizza! Kobal sends ice-cream. Caramel turtle ice-cream. Kronos envisages their eventual Fates, when they realise that all their struggles will have been for nothing, and eventually lose all hope... Lilith would expect them to be free of their obligations to Splinter, some day... Malphas thinks we should have more discussion in the team. More argument. A little more factionalisation, right? Mammon wants to talk syndication rights. Nybbas wants to corrupt April... Saminga prefers his turtles in soup. And dead. Valefor is tiptoeing around with a movie-reel full of film under his arm. Vapula crows at the potential for radiation poisoning experiments. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 21:34:36 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> We interrupt this mailing list... (Okay, so it's not a movie trailer. But I'm bored, I've got a lot of time, and a Netadress account. So let me say 'Bah Humbug' to you all right now. \|=) Female Voice: "We're not sure who put them on Ralph's head, and Kobal refused to comment." Lilim: "It just goes to show you, even the Prince of Apathy can show a little Christmas Cheer. Right, Frank?" Frank (the Djinn): "Feh." Lilim: "When we return, the Death of Santa Claus." "Your Angels put me through a vicious spot of Trauma. Sent me back to Perdition, and got me taken off Earth duty for awhile. But I'm drinking Ilk. In a few millenia, I'll be big, and strong, and I'll march into Heaven and blacken all six of your eyes. For a start." VO: "Ilk. It Does a body good." "Behold the power of Cheese." "I'll buy that for a dollar!" "I've fallen, and I can't get up!" "Turn the channel. Now." Voice-over: "VapuTech. We're not perfect, but whatcha gonna do?" James Earl Jones-like Voice-Over.: " Nybbas News Network. All News is Good News." Lilim: "--_another_ new slogan? That's the third one this hour. Unbeliev--" (Her eyes go wide, and she turns towards the camera, and puts on a half-panicky smile) "And we're back." Lilim: "Today, for the seventh time this century, Santa Claus was killed, this time in Saskatchewan. We go to our correspondent Harnazanthul in Dahoonek for the details. Harna: "Thank you, Janet. Santa Claus. Saint Nick. Father Christmas. However you slice it, he was traditionally portrayed as a Jolly old Man who visited houses on Christmas Eve, giving presents to the good children, and, at best, leaving nothing for bad children. And until early this century, he was nothing but a lie tied to the Christmas Holiday and an old Christian saint that parents told to their children to perpetuate their ignorance." "However, with the dawning of the 20th century, enough worldwide belief in Santa Claus was generated that an Ethereal who answered to the name appeared in the Far Marches. On December 24, 1922, he took a Vessel and visited Earth late at night." "The new Santa Claus's Modus Operandi was to visit houses late at night, and check the children to see if they were bad or good. If they were Good, he would add a present to the pile under the tree, and take a bit of Essence, while visions of sugar plums danced in their heads. If they were bad, he would steal all their Essence, and leave nothing. Storing the stolen Essence in his sleigh, a massive Reliquary, he would then head to the next house, and could usually visit fifty or sixty such houses before the night was through. "And that's the way it went until December 24, 1952. As is commonly known, the Host frowns upon Ethereals visiting Heaven, and on this night, over Defiance, Ohio, Kris Kringle was ambushed by a hit squad of Sword Angels, and vessel-slain. They also managed to off Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, and Blitzen, but the other five reindeer fled to the Ethereal before they suffered a similar fate. "Battered and broken, Jolly Old Nick retrated to his workshop to recuperate. But it wasn't the last time. Subsequently, in 1965, Maeven, the Angel of the Heavy Lead Pipe bludgeoned him to death on the roof of an apartment complex.. Similar incidents in 1971, 1983, 1987, 1992, 1994, and 1996 have plagued him and his organization. "This brings us to today, December 25, 1997. In the wee hours of the morning, a small platoon of Angels took the sleigh down with a Surface-To-Air Missile, and then descended upon the fallen sleigh and attacked Santa until he was forced to abandon his Vessel. They then pursued him to his Workshop in The Marches, and Soul-Killed him.there." "As you can see behind me, the workshop is in tatters. The Elves are currently attempting to confine the blaze, with little success. The attack, unexpected and unprovoked, was swift and brutal. It was truly a Christmas Midnight Massacre. Elf: "They descended upon us with out warning. One minute we were kicking bnack, wating for the big guy to get back, when suddenly, he pops in the middle of the courtyard, trailing fifteen or so of the Host. We tried to do whatbb we could, but they were Full-fledged Angels, and they held us at bay easily. In a few minutes, it was all over, and the old man was gone." "Then the big one turned to look at us and frowned. ' Consider yourselves all warned,' he said. 'Interfere not in the Mortal World.' And then they were all gone." "I dunno what we're gonna do now. I've got a wife and kids to feed. I suppose I could go back to making cookies, but I was real good at the toymaking, and they're only hiring part-time." Harna: "It's truly awful here, Janet. The bodies are everywhere, and the destruction is vast and far-reaching. Earlier, we talked to Urvex, a servitor of Technology, and self-proclaimed expert on The Marches." Urvex: "Yes, Santa's dead. But even if one of his Elves doesn't take his place, Human belief in him is likely to spawn another before the year's out. Fascinating thing, belief. Chrustmas '98 should see a new Santa cruising the skies...And another attempt on his life by the other side. It's--Oh, bloody hell." (She ducks behind the desk, there's a flash of white, and the camera goes to static.) Harna: "So, once again, the forces of Heaven have managed to trash a childhood idol, sacred to millions of children all across the planet Earth. I'd like to take this moment to say, If any of you out there have actual footage of this tragedy, or an excellent facsimile thereof, please contact the NNN studios. Back to you, Janet." New Lilim: "Candace here. Thank you for that stirring report." Candace: "I'll be the new host of NN for this hour of NNN, as the former host, Janet, transfeered, citing 'A need to keep her hand in.' She'll be appearing on 'Nightly NNN' as that show's Forty-Eigth War Correspondent." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:41:32 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Zina, Free Lilim > Here's another demon. Zina is a good choice to go Renegade, though > I expect it's pretty unlikely that she'd want to join Heaven. > > A question: demons have traditionally been able to grant youth, > beauty and health to people who sell their souls. In the main > rulebook, youth and health can be got with the songs of entropy > and healing. But how about a long-duration good looks thing? Well, it's potentially unbalancing, as beauty is worth character points. A way around it is to say that "true beauty" isn't something that can be just given - the most a demon could hope to grant is a +2 opposite sex beauty, and only if the person doesn't already have it. I'd say a high power version of Celestial Form should do. Optionally, if you use the rule for Quintessence that somebody suggested (which, in brief, suggests that character points are actually a special type of essence, which may be broken down for regular essence at a 5:1 rate), maybe paying the cost for Celestial Form in quintessence could make it permanent. > ---- > Zina > Free Lilim > > Discord: Jaded/3 Pretty good, but you're forgetting something... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 03:53:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>I disagree. I don't like the thought of celestials cancelling each other's actions. In fact, I wasn't so hot about the idea of anyone cancelling a celestial's actions. What I DO like is the thought that songs work because the symphony is being manipulated. What if the symphony could be manipulated to strengthen it's current state? What would that look like? What would that game like? What would that *sound* like (disturbance-wise)?<<< Those are all interesting ideas. But creating a Song that is basically a counterspell for Soldiers only doesn't bring any of those ideas to fruition. >>>I further limited it's use only to those who are an actual part of the symphony. The Soldiers.<<< One point you are missing is that when Soldiers perform Songs, they are disturbing the Symphony just as much as celestials do. So giving them a "Song of Stability" hardly reinforces the idea of mortals being able to counter celestials by virtue of being a more intrinsic part of the Symphony. >>>Again, a few lucky rolls. A lucky perception roll, a lucky song roll, and a lucky check digit. Remember that if ANY of these fail, the cancellation WILL NOT HAPPEN.<<< Most powers, especially really potent ones, are dependant on "a few lucky rolls". - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 03:53:51 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>I'm a bit lost. Everyone keeps telling me how "too powerful" this thing is.<<< Well, when many people independently come to the same conclusion, this is usually a clue.... >>>When? It can't be used actively, it's purely reactionary.<<< That's like saying armor can't be used actively. The purpose of the Song is reactionary, so pointing out that it is purely reactionary doesn't lessen its potency. >>>also, it depends on a successful perception roll (average soldier has a perception of 4).<<< Or knowledge that someone else is spending Essence -- if you *see* a celestial performing a Song, even if you don't actually hear the disturbance, you can try countering it. And when thinking about game balance, you have to factor in exceptional Soldiers, not just average ones. >>>It further depends on success of the song, which is based on Corporeal Forces.<<< Like every other Corporeal Song. So? >>>After all of that, should it happen to work (AND get a higher check digit than the original roll), the disturbance will call attention to a character with little forces, little attributes, and few points in skills.<<< All irrelevant. The point is how powerful the Song is *in its effects*, not on the balancing factors that theoretically would limit its use. You also overlook another crucial element of game balancing -- taking into account how the characters in the In Nomine universe would react if this Song existed. You're arguing that Joe Average Soldier will rarely be successful at nullifying a celestial's Song. True. But angels and demons can both train elite Soldiers who are heavily geared towards using particular abilities -- in this case, high Perception, high Corporeal Forces, specializing in this Song, etc. And given its *great* usefulness, very likely celestials on both sides WOULD do just that. The Song of Stability, as written, would significantly alter strategy and tactics in the War. >>>I'm mostly looking for people to give this a shot and see how it works. If it looks unbalancing, blink and look again.<<< I did blink and look again. I won't try it in my game because I can tell from looking at it that it would be unbalancing. It would alter the landscape of the War on Earth. >>>In short, I'm throwing my optional rule out for playtesting and troubleshooting, not public approval.<<< That's fine, but anyone who throws out optional rules gets comments -- some approving, some not. If you don't care about negative opinions, no problem, you're free to ignore them. No one is preventing you or anyone else who likes this Song from using it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:16:45 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > >>>I'm a bit lost. Everyone keeps telling me how "too powerful" > this thing is.<<< > > Well, when many people independently come to the same conclusion, > this is usually a clue.... That? Lots of people have independantly come to the conclusion that AD&D is good. I personally don't find it terribly powerful; if anything, it is more balancing than overpowering. > >>>also, it depends on a successful perception roll (average > soldier has a perception of 4).<<< > > Or knowledge that someone else is spending Essence -- if you *see* > a celestial performing a Song, even if you don't actually hear the > disturbance, you can try countering it. No, you can't. Thats the whole point of how me made the rule. You have to make the perception roll to try countering the action. No perception success, no countering. > You also overlook another crucial element of game balancing -- > taking into account how the characters in the In Nomine universe > would react if this Song existed. You're arguing that Joe Average > Soldier will rarely be successful at nullifying a celestial's Song. > True. But angels and demons can both train elite Soldiers who are > heavily geared towards using particular abilities -- in this case, > high Perception, high Corporeal Forces, specializing in this Song, > etc. Lets look at it then. A starting soldier, with 3 Corp Forces, a 6 in this song, and a Perception of 7 (which would give a Will of 1) would have an average chance of success of about 20 percent (IICC). A seven force one could boost his Corp Forces up one, giving him a chance of 22%, or raise his Perception to 13, and his chances to 35%. In any event, because the CD of the countersong must be higher than the CD of the song, the chance of success will not rise above 42% unless the singer is getting autosuccess or burning essence like mad. And to get an autosuccess, you would need to get skill in the song at higher than 6, or more than 6 Corp Forces (both really pointless, and the first plain impossible if I know the rules). So truely exceptional soldiers, built for the task, might be able to counter the song about two times out of five. As characters, they would be pointless - the first Calabim/Malakim they annoy would have more than enough of an edge, w/o using *any* songs. As servants, they would be subject to GM approval, and even if they were allowed, they would be vulnerable to all sorts of evil resonances (as well as being dumb and unable to shoot a gun). So where is it imbalancing? > And given its *great* usefulness, very likely celestials on > both sides WOULD do just that. The Song of Stability, as written, > would significantly alter strategy and tactics in the War. And this is a bad thing? It puts humans on more of a level field with Celestials. It doesn't overpower Celestials by any means; after all, it only affects songs, not skills, resonances, or vessels. In a mixed human/celestial PC game, they are a little closer to the Celestial player in power; in a humans-only PC game, they are a little more capable of handling demons without resorting to calling in the angels. Something else to remember, David, that I think you are forgetting in your rush to judge this Song as unfitting - the In Nomine rules were never built to be balanced. Soldiers start out at almost the bottom of the barrel; they have about 2/3 of what celestials have for Forces and character points, the have no resonances, and when they die, they aren't necessarily coming back. For this they get the ability to kill and damage without disturbing the Symphony, and, if Song is used, the possibility of countering a song that they are around to hear. No effect on resonances, no effect on skills, no effect on songs that are sung beforehand (which many of the really useful songs can be). I'd still say they are getting the short end of the stick, and in my games I'd probably increase it's power a bit. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:53:30 EST From: Gruzzle Subject: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... <> <> Since the rules would lead one to beleive that humans are *not* supposed to be able to contend with celestials, but instead to act as mere pawns or assistants to a much grander cause then they could ever imagine, why then, would we want humans on a more level field with celestials? - -greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:12:06 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... Personally, I don't want Soldiers on a much more level playing field. I want the little welps to tremble. I do think, however, giving them one trick up their sleeve can at least let them feel like *maybe* they've a chance. As far as game effects, I imagine that the only thing this will really do is ease Celestials into a slightly more thoughtful avenue of symphony manipulation. Resonances which require no essence expenditure aren't hindered remotely, nor are any other non-essence based effects. Essence based effects are seldom affected anyway, but at least, there's a chance. Angels and Demons may want a number of soldiers with this song, but consider: Many times that the Perception roll succeeds at all, the soldier still doesn't know what's happening, or which side the performer of the action is on. Certainly, if he's near, he'll be able to spot who's doing it, but then even the mere attempt at the song will most likely alert that Celestial exactly who's trying to counter the effect! And what if the soldier rolls poorly for his Perception check digit, countering their servitors songs while thinking he was countering the enemy's? Would you want that kind of random variable in your day? Maybe, maybe not. This does give the soldier a bit more power, but it also gives them another disadvantage. Sure, when Brannock, Impudite Knight of Dark Humor, was about to have a Secret Service agent 'accidentally' discharge his weapon straight into the president while trying to shoot a would-be assassin, Joe of God once again rolled exceedingly well and managed to counter the entire event. Suddenly...Brannock isn't so amused by the thought of overlooking this little twerp. Run Joe, run. I honestly think the ability and it's repurcussions balance themselves out in the long term, but it does mean that now Soldiers can feel the warm glow of victory for at least a second before realizing they should just have left well enough alone. It will also cause celetials to think a little more ahead of time, and to tread just a bit more lightly on the use of supernatural abilities. Actually, I think this brings the game a tiny bit *closer* to the original concept, especially given a lot of the source material in the bibliography. - ---Gruzzle wrote: > > <> > > < almost the bottom of the barrel; they have about 2/3 of what celestials have > for Forces and character points, the have no resonances, and when they die, > they > aren't necessarily coming back.>> > > Since the rules would lead one to beleive that humans are *not* supposed to be > able to contend with celestials, but instead to act as mere pawns or > assistants to a much grander cause then they could ever imagine, why then, > would we want humans on a more level field with celestials? > PS - One last note: PLEASE KNOCK MY IDEAS INTO OBLIVION, if you think that's where they belong. I'm just requesting that rather than getting messages of the "I don't like it" variety, that I receive mail pertaining to "here's *why* I don't like it. Ideally, I'd love to get some "here's *why* I don't like it, and here's my ideas on how to fix it" input. == --Querent USELESS FACT: Paul Reiser plays the piano in the opening theme of "Mad About You". _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:28:54 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... > Personally, I don't want Soldiers on a much more level playing > field. I want the little welps to tremble. I do think, however, > giving them one trick up their sleeve can at least let them feel > like *maybe* they've a chance. Well, true. It doesn't level the field too much; what it does do is make Celestials tread a little lighter. In fact, it would make great background, too. One or two humans with this song aren't much. But if all of the humans knew about celestials, this Song would get aroung mighty quick. It might even get improved on by some smart humans. And all of a sudden the Hosts are heavily outnumbered. No wonder they hide... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #532 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.