From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 30 21:23:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24054 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:23:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA32092 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:17:53 -0600 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:17:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199712310317.VAA32092@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #539 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 539 In this digest: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game IN> Song of Stability IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game IN> Best Lines From Last Night's Game Re: IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" Re: IN> Best Lines From Last Night's Game IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #538 Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" RE: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" IN> Joining the ML IN> Reliever becoming Angels Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Song of Stability ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:19:38 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > That rule is for normal, unpossessed mortals. The section on Kyrios > in the Angelic Player's Guide clarifies rules for calculating Body > Hits for Kyrios. You use the Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness in > place of a Vessel Level, since most Kyrios don't have a Vessel. Reading the Angelic Players Guide last night (great book, by the way) I found the answer to most of my questions. So for example. Taking the following two people (one kyriotate, and one human host-to-be) would the kyrio have 35 body hits, or 20 hits?? (ie. do they add their own corporeal forces before multiplying by 5 or not?) Does this mean that Kyriotates can have 'vessels' with more than 6 levels.. Kriotate- 3 corporeal forces, and 5 strength Human- 2 corporeal forces, 2 toughness, and 4 strength - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... Ah, that's just it! I suggested the song as a possible idea to throw into a "canon" In Nomine game. If it was just a house rule, it'd be on my web page and that would be that. If I just sent an article in to Pyramid Magazine pertaining to "How to give the Soldiers a bit more bite", it may get rejected, it may slide through. Why haven't I bothered yet? I decided to take it to the experts. Simply that it *doesn't* exist in the canon version tells me little. Every single new attunement, song, band, and choir never existed in the canon version either... until they were printed. Would giving soldiers a longshot ace up their sleeve be that detrimental to what we have become used to? Prior to the release of the GM's screen, I was certain that In Nomine was the one SJGames book which wasn't going to deal with the illuminati. Suddenly, there they were, eluded to in the description of an Archangel. Prior to the release of The Marches, I was sure that the elder gods were pretty much out of the picture, but lo and behold it's now possible to have them play a central role in an adventure without upsetting "canon" In Nomine. We all know what is and isn't *canon In Nomine*. We have the books, we read the rules, we play the game. I'll be a bit more specific in what I expected here: I want to know if you would or would not like to see this as an official option printed in an SJGames publication. If not, why not? Is it unbalancing? How? Who benefits, who suffers? Does it matter? What is the palpable difference inherent to the game? Is the theory sound, with the mechanics flawed? Can they be corrected? Ultimately, it comes down to this: As soldiers in the armies of the divine and the infernal, do they even have a chance? Do they need an ability which gives them a chance? If the war is likened to a game of poker, it's as if the celestials are playing 7 card draw and the soldiers are in the same game, playing 5 card stud. Would adding a single wild card to the deck for the soldiers ruin the game, or just add a bit of tension without really giving them a break? - ---David Edelstein wrote: > > I haven't offered any "fixes" for your Song because it's basic concept > (only Soldiers can do it) goes against some fundamental premises in my > campaign, which is largely based on the official In Nomine universe. > > Using this Song, as written, would change your campaign significantly from > the canonical In Nomine universe. If that's what you want to do, more power > to you! > > -David > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:47:45 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game My understanding is this: The vampires must fill their need prior to sunset. Does it say it must be done in the daytime? It's 7:00, the sun has just set. Boris the Vampire has just gotten his new point of essence. Tomorrow, at 7:00 the sun will set again, and if he doesn't fill his need by then, he'll not regenerate tomorrow night. Knowing this, he searches for a victim. If for some reason, sunrise comes prior to his feeding, he'll be very upset. Retreating to his sub-basement lair in the base of the Horton building on the corner of 23rd and Jackson. There, he cuts a few phone cables hoping the blood-rich repairman will come downstairs before 7:00. All In Nomine characters regenerate on a 24 hour basis. That 24 hour mark is at different times for differnent characters. For vampires it's sunset. Should they have instead worded it to say "the vampire regenerates at sunset only if it's need has been filled since the last sunset"? Probably, but I won't buy a new revised edition just for that sentence. - ---Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > > How can vampires ever regain any essence. It says they can regain > > > some at nightfall, if they meet their need before sunset. ::shakes > > > his head:: == --Querent USELESS FACT: On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament Building is an American flag. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:18:56 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>So why say that what I'm doing isn't In Nomine? Or do you mean that my post is not in the spirit of In Nomine (and if so, what grounds are you using)?<<< The latter. It doesn't fit the conception for In Nomine that is established in canon. {Insert Mandatory Disclaimer Yadda Yadda Yadda here.} Nowhere in canon {Insert Mandatory Disclaimer Yadda Yadda Yadda here} is there presented the idea that the Symphony in any way reacts, or becomes stronger or weaker, according to the presence of individual components of the Symphony. >>>Thats because using Perception for the second roll wouldn't fit, and using Celestial Forces would make it tougher. It might make sense to use some multiple of Corporeal Forces now that I think about it.<<< The mechanics aren't what bother me (much). Whatever rolls you use to represent the concept, you're saying the Symphony becomes harder to disturb because a human (with a "resonance" or whatever) happens to be there. That's WoD. {Insert Mandatory Disclaimer Yadda Yadda Yadda here.} >>>Thank you for making it abundantly clear that I need to make perfectly obvious everything I say. You see those two little quotation marks around the word resonance? That means that I'm drawing a parallel between their connection to the Symphony and the resonances of Angels and Demons.<<< Yes, I realize you weren't saying humans have literal celestial resonances. My point was that humans don't have a "parallel" ability -- they don't HAVE a "connection" to the Symphony, they just ARE the Symphony. You can quote and use new WW terms and do whatever you want, but it's still not an In Nomine-flavored concept. {Insert Mandatory Disclaimer Yadda Yadda Yadda here.} - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:23:37 -0500 From: John J Maurer Subject: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. At 12:34 PM 12/30/97 -0800, Querent wrote: >I want to know if you would or would not like to see this as an >official option printed in an SJGames publication. >If not, why not? I would not like to see it as an official option because I have already seen it here. It has been sufficently done to death on both sides that I don't need to see any SJG version. :) The reason I respond is because some of the other questions are important philosophically if nothing else. >Is it unbalancing? How? Who benefits, who suffers? I don't know if "unbalancing" is the right word. I think that humans are "powerful" not because of any song or skill but because they are the favord of God's creatures (sorry Jeordi). They are the only beings with destinies and fates (at least in my world) and therefore are the only things that "count" in whatever ineffible game God (and Lucifer) are playing. Giving them some ability to me implies that they NEED an ability. I might allow some sort of saint or bhodisatva to step in and prevent a disturbance to the symphony (that whole null-psi idea) or maybe some exceptional human, but it would not be a skill. It would probably just be what they are. It would be one of those "scenario" type things. Imagine the golden child in Eddie Murphy's romp. If you did allow it as a skill it makes those to whom it can be bought exceptional players. They have a unique skill that would make them prized by each side and if you get one on your side, then my side will try to kill it as quickly as possible. Therefore the benefits and sufferers are on all sides. Celestials with one on their side benefits and one on the other suffer. The humans benefit because they have some nifty trick and suffer because everyone wants to use/kill them for it. > Does it matter? What is the palpable difference inherent to the game? The diference is mostly they are a new type of being, powerful humans. Maybe give Gregori that ability. >Is the theory sound, with the mechanics flawed? Can they be corrected? I play enough Amber DRPG that I don't really notice mechanics anymore. >Ultimately, it comes down to this: As soldiers in the armies of the >divine and the infernal, do they even have a chance? If a soldier confronts a celestial directly, they deserve to be made into hash. IMHO soldiers are put to their best use handling things their superior cannot handle or cannot understand. Celestial cannot kill the soldier of the other side without making noise, but humans can. Humans understand other humans and work with them better. They think about things like traffic laws, why you shouldn't carry a sword down Main Street and the like. If a Soldier has to confront a celestial their best bet is to come up with some trick or trap. >Do they need an ability which gives them a chance? I say no because humans already are special. In my campaign a Seraph of Michael has flattened humans (using Song of Thunder) in order to get at the demons. Sure he killed 3 impudites, but Michael is going to stop in and remind him that it is pointless to win a war if you destroy the prize doing it. >If the war is likened to a game of >poker, it's as if the celestials are playing 7 card draw and the >soldiers are in the same game, playing 5 card stud. If you are looking at a slugfest yes. Assuming the celestial is willing to cause the disturbance. Beyond just making a gong-like noise, A disturbance in the symphony in my world will affect the fates and destinies of those touched. And it is pretty much random how the effects work. That makes my celestials more likely to stay quiet. >Would adding a >single wild card to the deck for the soldiers ruin the game, or just >add a bit of tension without really giving them a break? It would change the game. I like to see humans as fabrige' eggs or china mice. They are fragile but really worth a lot. Speaks, Seraphim of Lawyers The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -Doctor Who, Face of Evil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:47:00 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > -David Thank You, Brandon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:29:03 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > Actually, John, I'm afraid you're wrong. I looked in Night Music last > > night, and the new, improved rules for mortal hits are (Corporeal Forces > > + Toughness) x Strength. > > > > That rule is for normal, unpossessed mortals. The section on Kyrios in the > Angelic Player's Guide clarifies rules for calculating Body Hits for > Kyrios. You use the Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness in place of a > Vessel Level, since most Kyrios don't have a Vessel. Well, I don't have the APG, so I didn't know about that. (To all my players who may be lurking on this list: hint, hint.) Still, why should the hits be different? Why does the presence of a possessing Kyrio rob a body of hits? One would think that rules for calculating mortal hits would be the same, possessed or not. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:36:31 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Best Lines From Last Night's Game (The demons think that someone who is poking around and asking questions may be working for Heaven. They are trying to get him in trouble with the cops and having marginal success.) LILIM OF NYBBAS: I call Bill Walsh. GM: Bill Walsh? LILIM: You know, the "America's Most Wanted" guy. I'm sure he'd like an exclusive. - ------- (A Balseraph tries to get rid of dissonance: he was caught in a lie by LAPD officer Ed Smith.) BALSERAPH: "Is Officer Smith here?" SMITH (emerging): You know, giving false information to a pol... BALSERAPH: "Your fly is open." (rolls resonance, proudly announces "I made it!") GM: Okay, mark off that point of dissonance. BALSERAPH: Whooo! GM: Smith looks down at his fly: "Wha...?" he says intelligently. Then he looks up and scowls. "Very funny." Take a point of dissonance. BALSERAPH: Er. Damn. Forgot about that. - ---------------- GM: These foster parents look like a kindly loving old couple. All you see in the way of desires in their eyes is that Lisa wants to have a child of her own and Daniel wants to make Lisa happy and take care of people. LILIM: Damn. They must pay. IMPUDITE: Don't worry. All we have to do is heist one of their wards, kick the shit out of the little cherub, molest him, and call CPS on them. LILIM: Beautiful. BALSERAPH: But not -right- away. They're still useful. GM: Are any of you saying this in-character? (General shaking of head, "no no no") GM: Would you mind getting back on track? LILIM: Killjoy. - ----------------- GM: The angel curses in Enochian, your tail strangling the life out of her vessel. BALSERAPH: What does she say? "Darn you all to heck?" GM: No, she'd probably be in trouble if her Superior could hear the language she's using. BALSERAPH: Ooh! I almost want to let her go. Nah. - ------------------ Next: Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries". Jason onwards ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:47:08 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >According to the context of the Band description, yes. They believe their > >lies -while they're saying them-. No mention on how long that belief lasts > >after the lie has been created. > > Okay, that clears things up a bit. I wasn't thinking how long it would > take them to believe themselves. :) Note that I said 'in context.' There's nothing that actually says this, it's just something I inferred. I may (in fact, I expect to) be shot down later, once the IPG comes out. > I must say that I much prefer your interpretation. Maybe the Djinn CAN > inflict emotional harm after all, as long as it causes the attuned to > pay more attention to them. Maybe even physical harm... The way I see it, the Djinn can't do anything -directly- to the attunee. Indirectly, however, is a whole 'nother story. (Frighteningly enough, I can -sympathize- with the Djinn mindset. It's not a nice place to be, but if there's call for it I may go exploring to do a writeup of my perception of them. Is there sufficient interest on the list?) > How *did* that human get that pole through his chest in the Djinn intro > bit? [IN pg 142, with the "Gkkk, Help me."] One wonders.. > That's the very description of my family. I can play that *easy*. > ANYWAY, where were we... Putting the 'fun' back in dysfunctional, I believe? ;) > Hmmmm... I wouldn't mind a WoD "feel" for IN. Wow... That'd be dark, eh? > Then again, I suppose Dark Victory HAS done that pretty well. Of course, > there aren't Mages in it. Yeah, crossing IN and WoD would be REALLY > nice for my group at school. They're pretty heavy into WW. Man, it'd be > awesome to bring in a few angels... he he he... Hehehe. My thoughts exactly. > What about Geasa? It'd be pretty boring for Lilim if they can't use their > Resonance on Humans simply because the humans can't have Discord... > > On the other hand, it's a "special case" anyway. Geasa are special cases, if no other reason than the fact that they're temporary. But yes, it's (as far as I know) the only 'true' Discord a human can have. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:05:02 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" One of the best adventure seeds in the way of inspiration I found on the various web sites out there is Maya's (maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman)) "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries". The intro goes thusly: "Along the street (which both was and was not Cheapside) came the dead Jewess. She walked slowly, for she had a great way to go and had all the breadth of Dreame-Countries to cross before she would reach Heaven's Marches. In her arms she carried the little Christian boy, the widow's child, Orlando Beaufort. He was not sleeping (for the dead do not sleep) but he had buried his face in her neck and his golden curls were mingling with her own. -- Stopp't Clock Yard, Susanna Clarke" And this adventure was inspired by that quotation. Not long ago, as times run on earth, a child was born: this child had something of a Destiny. In a diabolically sponsored accident, the parents died: the mother went to Heaven's side of the Marches, and the father to Hell's. They still loved each other. The child lived. Yves' servitors keep an eye on the child, given his Destiny. This has prevented Hell from taken any obvious strikes. All the more leeway for unobvious ones. Three days ago, the child fell asleep, and has still not woken up. He won't." --- GR Cogman Okay, I figured my players would prefer to play demons than angels (I was right), and so with a few quick rewrites, I was able to put together this version of the story for demon PCs. Mom is out of the picture. Somewhere in Heaven, and unavailable to either side. Dad is more on the scene since he, as an alcoholic and occasional abuser of the kid (named Eugene Saratowski in this version of the story) appears in Eugene's nightmares, courtesy of Beleth. When Eugene fell asleep three days ago, he fell afoul of the plot of one of the fae spirits of the Far Marches. A noblewoman who resents that Blandine and Beleth get all of the essence from dreams that she should rightfully get a share of, she hatched this plot a while ago, using one of her pawns, an angel named Azrikael. Rikki (as her friends call her) is a Cherub of Tusmus, who has the Word of Family. Rikki's job is a kidnapper for Heaven. She heists children from families who do not appreciate them, and while Elohim and other angels work on that family's guilt feelings, Rikki keeps the child safe and happy for the interim. Then when everything is right, she returns the child and the family is strengthened. However, Rikki had to enter the Marches a few years ago, and there she met and fell in love with the fae noblewoman, who decided to exploit this affection. The noblewoman had Rikki kidnap Eugene's dream body from the Marches and bring it back to LA. This would cause Marches-wide dissonance as his Destiny (and Fate!) tries to make him wake up and fails. (Bear with me, it's GM fiat.) His father finds out about part of this and escapes (!) from Hell to plead with Heaven to help find the son. So it's a race to find Eugene's dream self: Heaven has the father's soul, which is of course attuned to Eugene, and thus very useful. But Hell knows that Eugene was taken back to Earth (something Heaven won't find out for 2-3 game days, depending on how much pressure you want to put on your demons.) Beleth's servants are not going to be enough alone to solve this one, so she calls in some favors with other Princes and gets them to organize a group of dirtsiders (the PCs) to do the legwork. She can provide a priority Invocation to them that will always succeed (for the length of the adventure). However, if you play Beleth properly, they will be loathe to use this even if they have completely solved everything. FRANCISCO ARMAND: Just before he fell asleep, Eugene was watching "The Big Sleep" with his foster family on American Movie Classics. The dream spirit of a private detective has followed him to Earth, the manifestation of his subconscious desire to be found. For the first few investigative angles that your group of demons try, they run into his name and description (it also resembles his father slightly, which may lead them to think that Heaven is already involved!). There is no record of his phone number (although it works), or anything about him except his private investigator's license. similar to a Celestial with a very low-powered Role. If something is done to disrupt Eugene's dreams (when I did this, one of the Impudites was the director of a HMO and had some doctors for servants, and he decided to stimulate and depress parts of the brain that were active in the dream), Armand changes shape and form to look more like a black and white Humphrey Bogart and talks in a more 1930s tough-guy argot. This can be difficult! People with grey skin are not common and hard to hide. - ------- OPTIONS: 1) Lilim can figure out little by little from looking in Eugene's -body-'s dreaming eyes what sort of place he's in. ("I want a coat. I want out. I want to go home.") Though this will be very general. 2) Djinn who attune themselves to his -body- will gain a very very faint attunement to his dream self. Of course, this is also true of Cherubim, so gaining control of his body is a high priority for both sides. 3) Armand knows where he was taken subconsciously and if the characters scatter enough "clues" in his way, he will eventually interpret them to find the location of the dream self. 4) The Heavenly team, if detected, ambushed and interrogated, might provide crucial clues, such as the possibility of Rikki's involvement, her True Name, etc. - --------------- Here are some things which my group of PCs did in this scenario: 1: They immediately assumed Armand was a Cherubim working for Heaven and started generating all sorts of problems for them. The Balseraph put in false police reports. The Impudite with the cop Role put false -past- reports on him. They eventually got the idea that maybe he was a dream spirit, perhaps -Eugene's- dream spirit (it doesn't -have- to look like his body!) They tested their theory by affecting Eugene's brain as described above. When Armand reacted, they summoned Beleth in triumph, who said they were morons and that this was't him, it's another dream spirit. 2: In only about 3 transactions, one of the Lilim had a powerful "in" with Child Protective Services, training me the GM to be very careful with Lilim in the future. 3: The Balseraph tried to lie to one of the members of the Heaven team that was casing the hospital where the body was being kept. Unfortunately it was a Seraphim. Fortunately, demons are paranoid bastards and the Lilim was also on the scene, Celestial Song of Light at the ready. Three successful Songs later, Seraphim is blind and being strangled with the Balseraph's tail. 4: The climax of the adventure is also different from the Heavenly version of the same adventure. Instead of Blandine taking the child's hand and leading him gently back to the Marches to cotton-candy dreams of Mom and Dad before waking, Beleth gruesomly kills Armand (Eugene's self-generated protector!) and drags Eugene to a screaming nightmare that he probably won't recover from for weeks. Success, baby. Jason whoo doggie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:07:13 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Best Lines From Last Night's Game Amusing. Very. Especially the angel swearing in Enochian. >Next: Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries". > This I want to see. Badly. Heh. Maya, writer of ATBOD-C - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:15:08 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #538 >> From: Casca >> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game >> Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 12:20 PM >> >> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >> > You're very close. Treat the host body as a vessel >> > equal to the host's corporeal forces plus any toughness. >> > Expect that most hosts will have 1-2 tougness while the >> > rare ones will have 3-4. (This is in APG, btw.) >> >> Actually, John, I'm afraid you're wrong. I looked in Night Music last >> night, and the new, improved rules for mortal hits are (Corporeal Forces >> + Toughness) x Strength. >> > >That rule is for normal, unpossessed mortals. The section on Kyrios in the >Angelic Player's Guide clarifies rules for calculating Body Hits for >Kyrios. You use the Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness in place of a >Vessel Level, since most Kyrios don't have a Vessel. > Me, I prefer the former, for human or animal hosts (Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness) x Kyriotate's Strength, and Kyriotate's ST hits beyond that for death Rather than (Kyriotate's Corporeal Forces x (Host's CF + Toughness) x Kyriotate's Strength For Celestial hosts, I don't have any problem with the latter, but Vessels are built tough. But that's probably because of the conniptions I'd have with a 5 CF, Strength 8 Kyriotate of Jordi. He can already possess 22 cats simultaneously, every one of them capable of battering down doors or clawing their way through steel. Get several together and they can flip cars. I'd much rather have each of those cats have 8/-8 Body hits, ratber than 40/-8. It's still much, much better than the average cat's 1/-1 body, and at least the bad guy has a chance of putting one or two of them down before he is reduced to a twitching corpse. Even if they are capable of dodging bullets. But I guess that's what grenades are for. Kyrios of Jordi can be _mean._ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:35:41 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" I'm glad that you liked the idea, and I like the change a lot. Definitely interesting. Very definitely fun. Going to adapt any more of mine? :) - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:03:15 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: RE: IN> The Company in IN On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel > and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? Hey, try building a relic with the Celestial Song of Divine Touch I posted (er, you'd have to tweak it to make it ranged, though) and the Celestial Song of Light (mildly tweaked). That'd do it... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:21:10 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, GR Cogman wrote: > I'm glad that you liked the idea, and I like the change a lot. Definitely > interesting. Very definitely fun. > > Going to adapt any more of mine? :) Very possibly. I like the one w/the now-sadly-disaffected Angel of Cleansing Fire, but that may be just because I recently finished reading a book on the Cuban Missile Crisis. Jason call bobby kennedy, he's dead, right? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:03:10 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Jason's rewrite of "All the breadth of Dreame-Countries" >> I'm glad that you liked the idea, and I like the change a lot. Definitely >> interesting. Very definitely fun. >> Going to adapt any more of mine? :) > >Very possibly. I like the one w/the now-sadly-disaffected Angel of >Cleansing Fire, but that may be just because I recently finished reading >a book on the Cuban Missile Crisis. > Cool. I look forward to hearing what happens. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:31:16 -0700 From: Chris Piekarski Subject: IN> Joining the ML I'd like to join the In Nomine Mailing List - -- "Inspiration is a state of mind" --William Glaskovic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:08:05 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> Reliever becoming Angels Okay. I realize that this isnt exactly, canon, but this is an idea that I had. Angels are very powerful celestials. Relievers are not. The normal way for a new angel to come about, is for a superior to create one from two diffrent angels. Relievers who acquire 9 forces can also become Relievers. What if human souls who ascend to heaven, and want to help in the war, can be sent back to earth as 'Relievers' and eventually earn their Angel status. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:36:19 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels At 09:08 PM -0500 12/30/1997, Brandon Quina wrote: >Okay. I realize that this isnt exactly, canon, but this is an idea >that I had. Angels are very powerful celestials. Relievers are >not. The normal way for a new angel to come about, is for a superior >to create one from two diffrent angels. > >Relievers who acquire 9 forces can also become Relievers. > > >What if human souls who ascend to heaven, and want to help in the >war, can be sent back to earth as 'Relievers' and eventually earn >their Angel status. > > I see Humans as much more than potential angel wannabees. As I gather it, if the Symphony fulfills its Destiny and avoids its Fate, the outcome will turn enirely on Humans who would then assume their proper role as the true heirs of the Creator. This potential supremacy of Humans over the angels is the main source of contention between angels, and not just the ones who Fell either - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:52:29 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > I toss out the 'Undead-as-Megasoldiers-of-Hell' concept entirely in > favor of Sinners -- you guessed it, Saints of Hell. Ive never seen 'Undead-as-Megasoldiers-of-Hell' personally. People ask demons to be immortal, and hell makes them undead. Sometimes it works out good, half of the time they either get a Vampire or a Zombi.. and compared to a Zombi (and, to a lesser degree, a vampire) undead are not as competent as a Soldier of Hell-- expecially an experienced one. Its a quick way to corrupt, but all in all id imagine it as being used to 'give them what they want' more than to 'create a powerful weapon'.. You want to be immortal.. Okay.. ::Laughs Evilly:: > Wherever the GM wants it to end. I rely quite heavily on my GM Gut. So > far, so good... My GM gut tells me to leave it out. I can picture In Nomine stuff moving into a WoD game, but not vice versa (and there is a diffrence) > That, and the fact that a beginning-level Kyrio can only inhabit one > beginning-level Celestial. With Possession, however, the Kyrio could > conceivable Possess multiple Celestials (for a shorter period of time, > of course.) Well. I wouldnt allow that. How about this however.. Shedim with the Song of Possession only gain the ability to possess non-human hosts, nothing else. Kyriotates, however, for a optional rule, gain a 'ghost force' for every 2 levels they have of the Song of Possession. Thus, they can gain 3 ghost forcces via. the song.. > It's either in the FAQ or in Night Music. I don't know the ruling > because I use the WW system. Not in either, although it is in the Angelic Players Guide.. It is, however, in both what hits MORTALS have :) Just not when there possessed (They usually gain some hits when there possessed. Although I wouldnt add in the toughness /before/ the multiple. It'd be added in after multiplying it by my strength) Of course, most Kyriotates should stay out of combat-- afterall, they'll become Shedim if they get too much dissonance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:08:14 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > {Insert Mandatory Disclaimer Yadda Yadda Yadda here.} You know, I don't usually say this, but the next time you get the urge to type this, don't. Because it's just stupidly patronizing, doesn't help the conversation any, and makes you look like an ass. > Nowhere in canon is there presented the idea that the Symphony in > any way reacts, or becomes stronger or weaker, according to the > presence of individual components of the Symphony. Nowhere in canon is presented the idea that it is specifically off limits, either. Some pretty nifty stuff is done with noise in the Symphony by various Superiors (Calabim of Fire, for instance); why is this particularly out of bounds? > >>>Thats because using Perception for the second roll wouldn't > fit, and using Celestial Forces would make it tougher. It might > make sense to use some multiple of Corporeal Forces now that I > think about it.<<< > > Whatever rolls you use to represent the concept, you're saying the > Symphony becomes harder to disturb because a human (with a > "resonance" or whatever) happens to be there. That's WoD. How do you figure that? It's not a human, its a human using a resonance. The closest I can think of from WoD is the concept of Sleepers making certain Magick non-coincidental (don't remember the term). This is explicitly different - there is no subjective reality behind the idea, and it's a special ability, not a in-born trait. It's no more WoD than it is M:tG (ala Counterspell). > >>>Thank you for making it abundantly clear that I need to make > perfectly obvious everything I say. You see those two little > quotation marks around the word resonance? That means that I'm > drawing a parallel between their connection to the Symphony and the > resonances of Angels and Demons.<<< > > Yes, I realize you weren't saying humans have literal celestial > resonances. My point was that humans don't have a "parallel" ability > -- they don't HAVE a "connection" to the Symphony, they just ARE the > Symphony. Boy, being a part of something implies a connection to that something to me. > You can quote and use new WW terms and do whatever you want, but > it's still not an In Nomine-flavored concept. Okay, lets look at this in a definately un-WoD way. This is not a particularly IN way of looking at it, but I just want to point out that it isn't a very WoD based idea. For my In Nomine type rationale, read back a few messages. Everything in the universe, from electrical current to motion, operates on the law of cause and effect. This law states that effect is equal to cause over resistance. There is *never* no resistance to an effect (if only because dividing by zero seriously gums up the math). In this case, the cause is the spending of essence, and the effect is a change in the Symphony. The resistance is inherent to the Symphony. This attunement allows a Soldier to up the resistance. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #539 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.