From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 31 11:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10907 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:38:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA09363 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:28:57 -0600 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:28:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199712311728.LAA09363@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #540 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 31 1997 Volume 01 : Number 540 In this digest: IN> About those IN-WoD mods . . . Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels RE: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #539 IN> Grigori IN> Balseraphs IN> Song of Stability IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Grigori IN> Humans in the Symphony Re: IN> Grigori RE: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> Grigori Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats (was: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #538) Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. IN> Infernal Exorcism (Re: My Thoughts) Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Infernal Exorcism (Re: My Thoughts) Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Grigori IN>balseraphs IN> Benson (Alien Choirs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:17:18 -0500 From: Garrett Taylor Subject: IN> About those IN-WoD mods . . . Casca wrote: >> Whoa there cowboy - *you* survived the beta tests. :) I have a few >> choice words to say about the rules... > >Arrgh! One of my players is on the list! My Secrect Source of Evil GM >Ideas has been compromised! > >When did you join? Uhmm...hang on... ...just a minute... err...well...a while ago. I've been stal...er, lurking about. Not that downloading the entire list archives from work and GREPing all your mail out of them to get me caught up to speed on your antics means anything... :) >> >> Okay - now post 'em. I'm anxious to *see* them for the first time... > >I -knew- you were a Djinn..... Now I'm supposed t'care what you think about me? Whatever... :) I just want to *see* the rules, man. - -Garrett Taylor Macintosh Specialist / Lotus Administrator / Domino Drone / Web Wonk ERAU: IT - Infrastructure bigcheez@bellsouth.net "No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less." - --Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:21:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels > Okay. I realize that this isnt exactly, canon, but this is an idea > that I had. Angels are very powerful celestials. Relievers are > not. The normal way for a new angel to come about, is for a > superior to create one from two diffrent angels. > > Relievers who acquire 9 forces can also become Relievers. I think you meant Angels instead of the second Relievers. > What if human souls who ascend to heaven, and want to help in the > war, can be sent back to earth as 'Relievers' and eventually earn > their Angel status. In canon, human and celestial souls are qualitiatively different - a human, no matter how powerful, is still a human. Humans come back as Saints; they don't disturb the symphony, and lack a resonance, but otherwise are like 7 Force celestials. That's the closest you will get in canon In Nomine. Some people have made the comment that Lilith is precidence for a human becoming a celestial of some sort. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:34:03 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> The Company in IN >> Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel >> and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? > >Hey, try building a relic with the Celestial Song of Divine Touch I posted >(er, you'd have to tweak it to make it ranged, though) and the Celestial >Song of Light (mildly tweaked). That'd do it... Hey! Cool idea!! Hmmm... Song of Divine Touch... is it in the INC? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:44:17 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels Nathaniel Eliot writes: >In canon, human and celestial souls are qualitiatively different - a >human, no matter how powerful, is still a human. Humans come back as >Saints; they don't disturb the symphony, and lack a resonance, but >otherwise are like 7 Force celestials. That's the closest you will >get in canon In Nomine. Okay, don't worry about what canon for these next questions: * What if an undead wanted to become POWERFUL. It's no longer human, and it's not celestial. Could it achieve similar power to that of a Saint? [If it's not crushed by a superior first, of course.] *If it served Heaven, could it become a Saint? (or Saint equivalent) [Saint Thanatos, Patron Saint of Undead.] - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:58:25 -0600 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #539 >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:15:08 -0500 >From: Nana Yaw Ofori >Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #538 > But that's probably because of the conniptions I'd have with a 5 >CF, Strength 8 Kyriotate of Jordi. He can already possess 22 cats >simultaneously, every one of them capable of battering down doors or >clawing their way through steel. Get several together and they can flip >cars. > Kyrios of Jordi can be _mean._ Hey...I mainly serve Eli....and boy can THAT attunement be abused. :) I love my character... Oh, and don't forget the leaping of tall buildings... Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 Look for me in #innomine on Efnet rbeall@fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html <---Follow the link the the "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. #innomine web page. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:58:56 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> Grigori Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast CHOIR!). ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:09:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Balseraphs >>>Note that I said 'in context.' There's nothing that actually says this, it's just something I inferred. I may (in fact, I expect to) be shot down later, once the IPG comes out.<<< Actually, you're pretty close. :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:09:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>You know, I don't usually say this...<<< Too bad you just did. I'm not sure just who you think looks like an ass when you post personal insults to the list, but enjoy yourself. I was expressing my opinion -- I have nothing to prove to you, so I don't see any reason to indulge you further. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:09:56 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>><<< LOL! How can I reply to such an elegant rebuttal? You win. :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:38:01 -0500 From: Daymare Subject: Re: IN> Grigori Brandon Quina wrote: > > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > CHOIR!). > > ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. Well, there's a small amount of information on them in the Book of Enoch. And there's a copy of it online. http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm. Mostly chapters 6, 7, and 8. But that's just about all I have found on them. They, of course, are called the Watchers there. Anything else you need to know, you could always just make up. It's the job of the GM and all.. Daymare ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> Humans in the Symphony After reading the responses to the Song of Symphony, and doing some mulling about the Symphony walking through my local grocery store's parking lot, I came up with a simple way to describe humanity's existence in The Symphony. It's simple, elegant, and only slightly off-canon. It starts with my take on Divine Wording that says that Divine Words are *resonances* with the Symphony, and Council awarding of Words is actually just formal vestiture. That being said, humans are the only creatures in the Symphony (other than God, and perhaps Yves) who can create Words. Demons *can* create Words, but if that Word doesn't exist in human society/civilisation/collective subconscious, whatever, then that Word is a null Word, with nothing to react against in the Symphony. Kobal once found this amusing many millenia past. Angels don't have the selfishness it would take to create a Word and claim it as his own. Per the APG, Angels strive to embody concepts. But before humanity, there simply weren't a great abundance of concrete concepts in the Symphony, only those concepts created by God. Once humans were created, they created mythologies, systems, bodies of knowledge, etc., so that Words exploded into the Symphony, and provided concrete ideas and abstractions that Angels could latch onto. This differs slightly from canon in that Words predate humanity, but I haven't found anything else in canon that this would conflict with terribly. I hope this helps some of you get a better grip on how to fit humans into your gameworlds... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:53:17 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Grigori - ---------- > From: Brandon Quina > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Grigori > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 12:58 AM > > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > CHOIR!). > Sounds like fun. :) > ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. > Once, long ago, someone posted a write-up on the Grigori and the Nephallim. I can't remember who did them now. It *was* a long time ago. I hope Beth archied them... .. well, it took me a while, but I did find them in the Digest Archives... http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/6/1-228.txt all the way at the bottom for Nephallim... http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/6/1-219.txt about 1/4 of the way down for the Grigori. They were written by Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki back in June. I lucked out and found them relatively quickly. They *are* well done, despite my initial gripes about them. Note that neither of these are canon, but they are something to work from. I hope this helps. :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:15:16 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: RE: IN> The Company in IN On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >> Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel > >> and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? > > > >Hey, try building a relic with the Celestial Song of Divine Touch I posted > >(er, you'd have to tweak it to make it ranged, though) and the Celestial > >Song of Light (mildly tweaked). That'd do it... > > Hey! Cool idea!! Hmmm... Song of Divine Touch... is it in the INC? Ayup...I forceHTMLed it and sent it to Beth; it's up on the Songs page right now. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:16:50 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Grigori On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Brandon Quina wrote: > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > CHOIR!). Well, there's a challenge in it. But the other players will have to be Outcasts or Renegade demons, really... > ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. That's probly it. Go to the INC; there's a wonderful (unofficial) Grigori writeup there. It's so well done it'll make you weep. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:47:27 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats (was: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #538) Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: [snip] > the conniptions I'd have with a 5 > CF, Strength 8 Kyriotate of Jordi. He can already possess 22 cats > simultaneously, But OTOH this is a pretty unbalanced character you have here, in many respects. For a 9-force angel, there are only four forces left for Ethereal and Celestial; assuming just one Ethereal Force (now that's one dumb, MTV-attention-span bunch of cats), we've got just three Celestial Forces left to play with. To get anything like a sensible Will, to avoid the Kyrio bouncing off cats all day, say a Will of 8, we get a Perception of 4, which is pretty bad for an angel. One of the traditional advantages of possessing/controlling a large number of animals is that you can fan them out and hear everything that's going on; this guy won't. This is presuming, of course, that the angel is just a combat monster - tricky in itself, for a Kyrio. Unless you've got a *lot* of Essence, those 22 cats will need a lot of healing: if you rush them all in at the target, as soon as any cat gets at all hurt you've got one Dissonance. Get three cats hurt, and you've already got a fair whack, and a fair chance of tripping; get four or five hurt at more or less the same time, and we have an Outcast. And all you need to do is mow down the horde of cats with automatic weapon fire, or toss a grenade in the middle. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:45:57 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Grigori >Once, long ago, someone posted a write-up on the Grigori and the Nephallim. > I can't remember who did them now. It *was* a long time ago. I hope Beth >archied them... That would be me, yes. I had as much difficulty finding the link as you did. ;) Unfortunately, being an angel, I don't have enough ego to petition Archangel Beth for a more prominent link... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:43:31 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Grigori >::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd >think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be >played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. Well, if you're willing to go non-canon, there's always my version of the Grigori and their fallen bretheren, the Nephallim, available at the INC at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/NewChoirBand.html BTW, when I get More Free Time I will finish and post my listing of the Dozen -- not the Dozen of sorcerous lore, but the last twelve Grigori left on Earth, along with the Thirteenth, the last Nephallim. Bother me and I might get to it faster. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:19:24 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Hmmmm...that's true... I'm sold. As I've stated before, it's not so much the abilities of Soldiers I was after in the first place, more of a look into the physics of a metaphysical reality. If we can agree that: A: The Symphony is maleable. (Clearly indicated by the interaction of Celestials and human Fates/Destinies.) B: Soldiers are a part of the Symphony, set apart by their ability to perceive the Symphony. C: Since Soldiers are part of the Symphony, changes to the Symphony can drasticly affect a Soldier. D: Soldiers can alter the Symphony further, through use of Songs, Essence use, etc... So, if Soldiers are the Symphony concious of itself, and Soldiers can manipulate a maleable Symphony, is it at all possible that they may be able to manipulate it in such a way that the Symphony becomes more resistant to change? Like a defense mechanism? Admittedly, I knew it would at least partially alter the game mechanics were this true, but just because there's no mechanics set up for it doesn't mean it won't work. Certainly not in an SJGames publication. So the question then becomes either A: What are the game mechanics for such a manipulation? (Which I posted one answer for.) B: What is the flaw in my argument, which I've based on postulates set forth in the game. This argument may singlehandedly be the biggest factor in wanting to dump the whole idea, I don't like it that much either. But if there's no solution to question A, what then is the answer to question B? - ---John J Maurer wrote: > >Ultimately, it comes down to this: As soldiers in the armies of the > >divine and the infernal, do they even have a chance? > > If a soldier confronts a celestial directly, they deserve to be made into > hash. IMHO soldiers are put to their best use handling things their > superior cannot handle or cannot understand. Celestial cannot kill the > soldier of the other side without making noise, but humans can. Humans > understand other humans and work with them better. They think about things > like traffic laws, why you shouldn't carry a sword down Main Street and the > like. > == --Querent USELESS FACT: On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament Building is an American flag. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:30:58 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > BTW, I thought an Outcast angel was yanked back to Limbo if their vessel > was destroyed? The word from On High (in the form of the APG) is that Kyrios and Shedim don't have the luxury of limbo and get waxed. (It's a little more involved than that, but you get my drift...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:33:30 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game On Dec 30, 12:20pm, Casca wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > You're very close. Treat the host body as a vessel > > equal to the host's corporeal forces plus any toughness. > > Expect that most hosts will have 1-2 tougness while the > > rare ones will have 3-4. (This is in APG, btw.) > > Actually, John, I'm afraid you're wrong. I looked in Night Music last > night, and the new, improved rules for mortal hits are (Corporeal Forces > + Toughness) x Strength. I'm not talking about Mortal Body Hits, I'm talking about the Body Hits of a _possessed_ mortal. BTW, in my paragraph above I meant that most hosts have 1-2 _CorpForces_ not toughness! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:41:11 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game On Dec 30, 3:19pm, Brandon Quina wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > > That rule is for normal, unpossessed mortals. The section on Kyrios > > in the Angelic Player's Guide clarifies rules for calculating Body > > Hits for Kyrios. You use the Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness in > > place of a Vessel Level, since most Kyrios don't have a Vessel. > > Reading the Angelic Players Guide last night (great book, by the way) > I found the answer to most of my questions. > > So for example. Taking the following two people (one kyriotate, and > one human host-to-be) would the kyrio have 35 body hits, or 20 hits?? > > (ie. do they add their own corporeal forces before multiplying by 5 > or not?) Does this mean that Kyriotates can have 'vessels' with > more than 6 levels.. > > Kriotate- 3 corporeal forces, and 5 strength > Human- 2 corporeal forces, 2 toughness, and 4 strength The Kyrio-possessed mortal would have 35 Body Hits. The easiest rule to remember is: Replace the 'vessel level' in the normal celestial body hits calculation with 'Mortal CorpForces+Toughness'. I recommend that _anyone_ playing a Kyriotate (if you don't want to do the multiplication on the fly) simply write down the various Body Hit totals on the margin of their character sheet. For example, the above Kyrio would have this written down the side: 1 20 2 25 3 30 4 35 5 40 6 45 Then when you possess a mortal, just ask the GM, "What's the CorpForces plus Toughness total?" Of course, particularly cruel GMs will make their _own_ notes about how many Hits a Kyrio has and let them find out the hard way (taking damage). In general, I let the player know immediately since Kyrio/Shedim are _very_ good at scoping out the capabilities of bodies they possess. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:46:43 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Grigori I too have two friends who want to play Grigori. After all, what's the good of a mystery race if no one knows anything concrete about them? (Hey... wait a second!) The politically correct answer is that gamers familiar with the RPG genre enjoy it because of it's flexibility. The fun comes from ingeneous solutions, unexpected reactions, and anything that differs from the norm. Otherwise, they'd all be wargamers. The RPGamer mind doesn't quite understand the concept of "that's arbitrarily forbidden." They say "Are not the PC's the exception to the rules?" "Am I not a competant enough role player to take on this responsibility?" "Do you feel me so incompetent as to not be up to this challenge?" Gamers are a silly lot. The non-PC answer is this: You and I both have a couple of gimpy friends who just don't get it. - ---Brandon Quina wrote: > > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > CHOIR!). > > ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. == --Querent USELESS FACT: On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament Building is an American flag. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:47:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. You know, there's a perfectly good precedent for mortal defense against celestial interference, in almost every religion. It's called exorcism. Of course, in the forms of exorcism I know about, you do it by appealing to an even higher power of the opposing side. (Of Heaven, really. I never heard of calling on the infernal to exorcise an angel, but I'm sure you'd want something of the sort for the game.) So should the Song of Stability include the invocation of a Superior? Would that make it more acceptable for game balance? In actual fact, Christian exorcism calls on God and Christ, so maybe you need a d111 to exorcise. In any case, the Song of Stability brings up the whole issue of exorcism, which I don't recall being addressed in the canon yet. Surely it ought to be, in some form. And surely it would be high on the list of Soldiers' interests. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:08:39 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Infernal Exorcism (Re: My Thoughts) On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Of course, in the forms of exorcism I know about, you do it by > appealing to an even higher power of the opposing side. (Of Heaven, > really. I never heard of calling on the infernal to exorcise an > angel, but I'm sure you'd want something of the sort for the game.) !!!!!!!!!!!!! (that's the sound of Jason's neuron's firing...damn, whoever it was that said this game is intellectual crack is just too right.) > In actual fact, Christian exorcism calls on God and Christ, so maybe > you need a d111 to exorcise. Hm, possibly, but Christian prayer also goes to God and Christ (depending on the religion), but Christian -myth- is that angels hear it, carry it to the Divine, and (in some legends) actually perform the answers. So a d111 might not be necessary if the right angel (Yves? Novalis? Eli?) hears the exorcism request. Name me one Shedim that wouldn't flee their host in terror if he hears -any- Archangel "land" in the near vicinity. > In any case, the Song of Stability brings up the whole issue of > exorcism, which I don't recall being addressed in the canon yet. > Surely it ought to be, in some form. And surely it would be high > on the list of Soldiers' interests. Very true. Jason mmmmm...pea soup... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:30:07 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Grigori - ---------- > From: Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Grigori > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 9:43 AM > > >::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > >think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > >played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. > > > Well, if you're willing to go non-canon, there's always my version of the > Grigori and their fallen bretheren, the Nephallim, available at the INC at > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/NewChoirBand.html > > Ermm... Yeah. What Loki said. :) > BTW, when I get More Free Time I will finish and post my listing of the > Dozen -- not the Dozen of sorcerous lore, but the last twelve Grigori left > on Earth, along with the Thirteenth, the last Nephallim. Bother me and I > might get to it faster. Consider yourself bothered. :) Bother, bother. :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:41:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Infernal Exorcism (Re: My Thoughts) Jason Corley wrote: > Hm, possibly, but Christian prayer also goes to God and Christ > (depending on the religion), but Christian -myth- is that angels > hear it, carry it to the Divine, and (in some legends) actually > perform the answers. So a d111 might not be necessary if the right > angel (Yves? Novalis? Eli?) hears the exorcism request If exorcism involves Superior intervention, then probably most Superiors would take part in an exorcism in the right circumstances. The militant ones are obvious choices -- David, Laurence, Michael. Zadkiel is also a natural, as Archangel of Protection. Michael would be the most obviously traditional one, and I think he really IS invoked in some exorcisms. Then there are specialty jobs. Jordi for defending animals against demons, Christopher for defending children, Jean for machinery, etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:48:51 -0500 From: John J Maurer Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. At 07:19 AM 12/31/97 -0800, Querent wrote: >A: The Symphony is maleable. (Clearly indicated by the interaction of >Celestials and human Fates/Destinies.) I will accept A >B: Soldiers are a part of the Symphony, set apart by their ability to >perceive the Symphony. Set apart from whom? Normal Humans? Normal humans CAN percieve the Symphony, they just aren't very good at it. They can control the expenditure of essence. But that to me seems like a learned skill. I can't read Swahili but if someone who could taught me to do it, then I could. That sort of things. >C: Since Soldiers are part of the Symphony, changes to the Symphony >can drasticly affect a Soldier. I will accept that. >D: Soldiers can alter the Symphony further, through use of Songs, >Essence use, etc... This is a better statement than B. I am not sure what B means. I don't think that D sets them apart from humans except that they have been taught something. If in your world, soldiers are entirely different beings from humans, then you may have something. >So, if Soldiers are the Symphony concious of itself, and Soldiers can >manipulate a maleable Symphony, is it at all possible that they may be >able to manipulate it in such a way that the Symphony becomes more >resistant to change? Like a defense mechanism? Yes, it is possible, but why would this require being the Symphony conscious of itself? Also Soldiers arent THE SYMPHONY only part of it. Why couldn't celestials, being able to manipulate a maleable Symphony, make the Symphony more resistant to change. My argument would be they cannot manipulate the symphony as such. They may be able to change the symphony back to the state it was but they cannot affect THE SYMPHONY directly in a meaningful way. Only parts of it. A good example is the song of healing. I use Celestial Light (or whatever) to fire a laser beam at Joe Human (bong). A soldier comes and does a song of healing to remove the damage from the laser (bong). Each act changes the symphony from its current state, although the second change is likely to restore it to what it was before the first change. Am I making any sense? Speaks The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -Doctor Who, Face of Evil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:50:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Grigori problems like this occur too often in rpg's. Players too frequently testing the GM. My solution to this would be tell them no, that as of now no one can play that choir. On the other hand my roommate and DM would make up the stat's himself and then allow them to be played. On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Brandon Quina wrote: > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > CHOIR!). > > ::Shakes head:: And there is NEXT TO NO information on them. You'd > think they wanted to play them just cause there not supposed to be > played.. Forbidden Fruit, and all.. > > > > -- > (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// > Brandon Lance Quina (x x) > Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: IN>balseraphs Forgive this repetition but I need some input on these Fallen. They are paranoid and don't tell the whole truth. Does this imply that they both only and always tell half truths that might be tainted by their own paranoia. Secondly, a Balseraph would never lie from his own perspective. Does this imply that they can never use their resonance for convience or without some preparation? an example: The ballroom is full of people many being security. The Calabim and the Balseraph need to kidnap the wealthy senator. The balseraph conjurs a plan and scream the room is on fire, using his resonance to influence the crowd. - Now could he reenter the room or is he too, convinced it is on fire? Since he cannot contridict his own reality (IN 142) while the others are under his sway without gaining dissonance. Also if he in fact does believe his own perception of his reality can he in fact say the room is on fire without feeling the heat or smelling the smoke. Their resonance seems too limited to infact make them useful as anything but foot soldiers. If bob the balseraph took a role and needed to use his resonance to convince the police he was a private investigator does he at that moment forget that he was serving a prince? thanks jahon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:19:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Benson (Alien Choirs) Davy came panting down to the beach, his long moon-shadow stumbling before him on the sand. The last few hundred yards, he ran slower, calling and waving to the figure by the row boat. "I'm here," he panted at last, puffing up to Benson. "So I saw, some while back," the other observed drily. "You're half an hour late." "I am?! I knew I'd lost time, but-- Why are you still here? You said you'd wait until high tide." "It seems the tide is late, too," Benson said, looking not at Davy but at the moon, full and westering. "What? How?" "Perhaps there's a high pressure area over the Atlantic. Perhaps the Moon didn't pull as hard as usual. Perhaps I have friends in high places." He went on staring at the moon. "Well... Well, thank you." "You're welcome. I wanted to give you every chance." "I, uh, still don't *want* to go with them," Davy admitted, clambering into the boat. "Understandable," Benson said, striding in as easily as if shore and boat were a flat wooden floor. "You'll probably not enjoy the next few weeks. Or months. But you promised them and you're going and that's the main thing." He pushed off with an oar, slipped it into the oarlock, and began rowing. A deep, dim roar rose around them. "What's that?" asked Davy, looking about nervously. "Tide going out," Benson answered. "Making up for lost time." The little boat shot out on the late tide, as if motorized. The dark bulk of the tramp steamer lay ahead, black in blackness, visible to Davy only by a few running lights. Davy watched the lights approaching and sighed. "I suppose I could jump ship in London, or New York, if I had to." "No!" Benson barked. "Don't falter! Don't break faith, even with the likes of them. You'll regret it, I promise you. Breaking faith diminishes you. More than you can imagine." "But they--" "Yes, I know all about it. It doesn't matter." Benson stopped rowing and locked eyes with Davy. "I broke faith once," he said. "And I was diminished. And I *am* diminished. Don't you do the same." One of the oars slid out of its lock and fell in the water. Davy cried out and grabbed for it, far too late. Benson, still staring at Davy, reached out his hand. Davy cried out again as the oar lifted off the water, into Benson's grasp. He slipped it back in the lock. "What can I say," he wondered aloud, "to make you see how important this is?" Then he followed Davy's gaze to the replaced oar. "Oh. Hmph. Well. I probably shouldn't do this-- Maybe I wouldn't, if I hadn't warmed myself with that brandy while I waited for you. Damn. I will." He shipped the oars. "Do you know who I am?" "Elwin Benson?" ventured Davy, knowing it was not the right answer. "Only lately. Benson, ibn Shin, Luneus, Selenides, Ithilhin... You would run out of fingers and toes before I ran out of names." The moon was setting behind him. Benson was a silhouette haloed in moonlight. To Davy's consternation, the halo brightened. Soon, he could see Benson's face in it, shining of its own light, no longer smooth and youthful, but not old, either -- hard, metallic or crystaline, in flat white light, only the eyes still black. "I was a Prince of the Moon, one of the Shinsarin. An angel. I *was.* I did not keep faith. I ... fell." Davy sucked in breath. Terrified, he tried to pray, getting the "Our Father" all muddled up with "Now I lay me down to sleep." "Calm yourself." And the chiming voice was somehow dry and sardonic, as Benson's always was, and an eyebrow lifted over the blank, black eye-shadows. "I did *not* fall with Lucifer. I'm no devil. And, as I said, I'm diminished." "If-- If you're not a devil, what are you?" Davy quavered. "An exile. For so many years, the year itself has changed length since I left. Or was cast out. You could describe it either way. I can't go back, in any case." As he spoke the silver light faded, and he was just Benson in the dark again. "I can't go back, and I am diminished. Shackled in a body. I scared you with my unthinking trick with the oar, but I only did it because of the brandy. Brandy! If I were as I was, I could drink molten steel and not feel it, or flame from the sun's heart. I'd be doing my part to steer the Moon round its orbit, instead of muddling a brain with brandy for the illusion of heat. Instead of begging old friends for a bit of tide-work." Benson fell silent, and Davy peered now at him, now at the setting moon. The seat tried to pull out from under him, and he realized the rowboat was slowing down. It had been gliding swiftly through the water, though the oars still lay in the boat. "So don't you start down that path," Benson continued. "Take care how you give your faith and how you keep it. Then you won't have to run into the likes of me again. Ever." Davy sat silent. Benson unshipped the oars and began rowing again. The tramp steamer was much closer now. Minutes passed. The moon sank. Behind Davy, the sky paled, readying for sunrise. Davy found himself wondering if the things he had seen were real. They were over so quickly, and had been so strange. Surely someone as solid as Benson could not be a, well, whatever. "Ever?" Davy echoed. He wanted to stretch the strange talk into some ordinary time, to tie the two together. "Perhaps. I don't know. No one can tell me. Not your problem. Now, get ready. Here comes the ship." "Won't you be here when I get back?" "No. I have to go. I always wander. Anyway, now I have a favor to return." "For... For the tide?" Benson nodded. "Thank you." "You're welcome." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #540 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.