From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 11 16:46:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA09928; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:46:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20460 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:48:57 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:48:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199703112248.QAA20460@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #67 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 067 In this digest: Re: IN> A Few Thoughts.. Immortals + Others IN> Celestial Agreement IN> Foucault Re: IN> Celestial Agreement IN> Word-bound Angels IN> Magick, Sample Foci IN>GMing IN> Angels and Freewill (was Religion) Re: IN> Ponderables Re: IN> Celestial Agreement Re: IN> Why Johnny can't breed... or can he? Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Celestial Agreement IN> Yet another thought Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) Re: IN> Religion IN> Flavor in the game IN> Magick, Invocations and Rituals Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) IN> Songs and Vessels Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! Re: IN> Riders and Hosts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:27:26 -0500 From: "Stephen B. Mann" Subject: Re: IN> A Few Thoughts.. Immortals + Others > I don't know... the Preacher handles Christ's descendants pretty well. How did they do that? I only read the first few issues, and don't know what's happened lately. - -- Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu Webmaster Center on English Learning & Achievement http://www.albany.edu/cela ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:33:00 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: IN> Celestial Agreement What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:41:36 -0500 From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: IN> Foucault Oh I *LIKE* this! He's definitely going into my campaign! Twila (who works for Mathematical Reviews, so anything with a mathematical flavor is way cool.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:53:11 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement On Mar 11, 11:33am, Gregory Littmann wrote: > Subject: IN> Celestial Agreement > > > > > > What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action > because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being > debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a > lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, > would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. > Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? Depends completely on personality. I imagine that BOTH would very carefully look at the law and its side effects. Most of the 'evil' laws out there are because of the amendments and riders attached to them, for example. NIT: Fallen Celestials are Demons, not Devils. Devil, in In Nomine, I believe refers to Lucifer. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:20:02 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> Word-bound Angels D'oh! I've been reminded by the inestimable S. John 'Totally Badass' Ross that there is an example of a Word-bound angel in the back of the book, Orc. Ouch, is that guy scary or what? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:44:18 +0800 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian) Subject: IN> Magick, Sample Foci Focus/Suggested Use Level Influence antique mirror/divining 2 neutral cistern of blood (virginal)/divining 3 infernal cistern of water/divining 1 neutral cistern of holy water/divining 3 divine personal effect(s) of target/binding, divining, summoning, etc. 3 varies runic circle (common chalk)/any ritual magick 1 neutral runic circle (sulfur)/any ritual magick 2 infernal runic circle (quartz)/any ritual magick 2 divine Brian Gracey s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu sanvi@geocities.com The Celestial War: an In Nomine page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6889 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:11:55 -0500 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: IN>GMing Hello all, The one thing I missed when reading IN was a section on some practical tips for staging an IN game, so here are some ideas I hope might be of interest to you folks. Music: Nothing sets the mood of a game like music, and in a game like IN the right background music might go a long way in invoking the power of the Symphony. Here are some soundtracks that I highly recommend for IN: -Passion (Peter Gabriel): The music of Scorses's The Last Temptation of Christ. An Excellent soundtrack, the music has a strong middle eastern flavor which gives it an mythic feel which invokes timelessness. A good backdrop for any IN game. -The Seventh Sign Soundtrack: A bit more melodramatic but subtle and powerful. -The Original Musical Score to the Crow (Graeme Revell): Not the POP music CD! Extremely haunting, the score might be too heavy for some campaigns, but excellent if running a gritty, urban, one. -Birdy, music from the Film Birdy (Peter Gabriel): Another good offering by Peter Gabriel, this one however, has a more modern feel. Even so the haunting voices and sounds of Passion can still be heard. - The Truth and the Light: (Mark Snow): Yes it's the X-File's score, and hence requires some programming on the CD player to avoid the main theme (unless you want it) and the voices of Fox and Scully. Even so it has some powerful tracks, namely "Lamenta"," Carmen Amatorium ex Arcanum", "Memoria" etc. -Alien 3 (Elliot Goldenthal): Good infernal music, creepy to say the least. Good for those forays into Hell. Props: No I do not mean fake wings, but those things which add to the atmosphere of the game. The ones I enjoy using are incense and candles (white for divine, dark red for infernal). The incense I use I buy at a church (I forget its name), it is thick and fragrant, the smoke often lingers about creating an nice effect if used with the candles. Caution must be used though, or burnt books and character sheets are not the only unpleasant aspect ;). Another prop I just discovered is feathers, a few white feathers scattered about the table (like the cover, minus the flames) is a good idea. If you are feeling particularly ambitious, and have access to a slide projector, is to buy a slide of a stain-glass window (some cathedrals sell these) and projecting it against a wall. The light of the projector and the incense somewhat recreates the ambiance of a brooding cathedral. The projector can also be used to show the players slides of the locations they are visiting, but this requires a lot of time and money, but it is an nice tool. I hope these ideas inspire, I figured there are enough threads about metaphysics and game questions, that one on GMing might be a refreshing change... Enjoy Pax, Josh ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:12:03 -0500 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: IN> Angels and Freewill (was Religion) At 01:47 AM 3/11/97 EST, you wrote: >What is the True Status of religions in the IN NOMINE world? > > This means that celestials, who almost all believe in the existence of -- >or even *met* -- the One God, are free to choose what they believe in with >regard to God's inteventions in human history. In this regard, they're in >the same boat with all of humanity... they have to trust in the reports of >those humans who've claimed that they've had an encounter with God. This of course assumes that angels have freewill. I know that for IN to function as a game, angels (being PC's) must have freewill, if not the player will get seriously board. However, one common conception of angels (do not have my books with me) is that they have no will, except that of God, which they devoutly (blindly?) follow. At the same time there is supposed to be one instance in an angel's existence when it is confronted with the choice of continuing his servitude, or falling and achieving Freewill. One reason devils are selfish is that they posses a form of freewill. But the angels in IN have freewill, at least they think they do, but this leaves them open to doubt, the biggest threat to any faith. So, how do the Servents of the Divine feel when God isolates himself, as he has done in the modern age, from their activities and that of the world? Could the apparent absence of God become a catalyst for more angels, who feel abandoned, to fall? Do Archangels like Laurence and Dominic take this as carte blanche to further their agendas? And why is Yves silent, is there something he does not want his fellow angels to discover? These are the questions I started asking myself when I first read the game, and form the basis for a mythic campaign I hope to run. Some food for thought Pax, Josh ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:34:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ponderables At 12:53 AM -0500 3/11/97, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: >What I'm working on, so, please be patient. > 2. Fighting skill problem. What problem? I thought it was levels+the figure in the Combat sections... > 3. Possession: What exactly is the BH and Corporeal Characteristics of >the human or animal body possessed by a Kyriotate or Shedim or celestial who >sings a Song of Possession? I like the "take it from the celestial, return it to normal after the celestial leaves" approach, myself. Maybe a Power modifier if the host has more Strength than the celestial? > 4. Where the souls are: Where do the celestial forms of Outcasts, >Renegades, Heartless, and Grigori celestials go when they run out of vessels? > > 5. The results of celestials breeding corporeally: One thing for sure, >no half-breeds!! Either the child will have a celestial or a human soul. >Nothing else. Ever. Darn. Though you can have a half-breed without having a "in-between" soul, I think. Two "enhanced" human souls might have a tiny-tiny chance to produce a celestial soul, for instance, or an enhanced-soul and a celestial have a better chance for a celestial... That may be more bookkeeping than is useful, though -- the human/celestial split seems good to me. It probably *should* be a somehow "superior" human, though -- an extra Force, something like that. You might want to give Grigori a higher chance to "breed true," though, since I'm not sure there could be Children of the Grigori who were celestial otherwise. They might be a special case... >Don't hold your breath for this one. This will be >dealt with in depth with the Grigori cycle *next year*. This year is the >celestials and soldiers, be patient for when they bed-wrestle with each other >in next year's supps. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:32:00 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action > > because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being > > debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a > > lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, > > would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. > > Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? > > Depends completely on personality. I imagine that BOTH > would very carefully look at the law and its side effects. Most > of the 'evil' laws out there are because of the amendments and > riders attached to them, for example. Yes, but the disagreement doesn't have to depend on seeing or not seeing any non-moral facts. It could just be a disagreement over what is good or evil. For example, two people can agree entirely on all the medical facts related to abortion, but disagree over whether it would be good for abortion to be illegal or bad for it to be illegal. Now, where an Angel holds one of these views and a demon holds another, they may find themselves unwittingly fighting for the same short-term goals. > NIT: Fallen Celestials are Demons, not Devils. Devil, > in In Nomine, I believe refers to Lucifer. Oops! :/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:41:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why Johnny can't breed... or can he? At 9:06 AM -0500 3/11/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> > Humans accidentally 'spill' essence, while Celestials >> >have more control. >> >> Right, okay. But I wouldn't think that the Servitors of Creation >> would have any less control -- though they might be more likely >> to do it deliberately! > > Oh, I see what you are saying. What I meant was that >_Eli_ might contribute a little extra essence during the Rite. ;) >Sorta something like, "Here's two essence; one for you and one >for your friend." AHHHHH! Okay, that's cool! (So it's sort of a Rite that gives the Essence for use right then.) That makes much perfect sense. >> > What I was thinking was that the essential nature >> >of the soul was set at conception. If the soul does not >> >have enough time to mature in the Corporeal world, what >> >happens to it? My answer was that the soul was >> >angelic (the 'hard' part of creating an angel had been >> >done) and could grow like any other soul of the sort. >> >Having them grow like Relievers is a pretty cool idea, >> >I think. >> >> They may *be* Relievers, if they're killed before they have all >> their Forces... > > Heh. No one has told me yet exactly where _Relievers_ >come from. I suppose I should start writing, eh? They're baby celestials, of course, born of two angels in Heaven! Why else could they be any Choir they want to be? Imps and Gremlins are obviously products of demons, in Hell. >> I think it was stated that they were excommunicated -- this obviously >> applies to their kids... >> >> (Y'know, if you're taking the stance that they're supposed to be a >> "secret undercover force for Good," maybe part of the excommunication >> was that their angelic nature would breed true.... Unlike other >> angels.) >> >> (BTW, if the Children of the Grigori are as verboten as the Grigori >> themselves, what happens when they show up in Heaven, after death?) > > [Mere opinion follows... all opinion and only opinion] > > Argh. I _hate_ that paragraph. I can see why. >Since there are _two_ >celestial realms, then you have to pick one. My suggestion >(which is being mulled over) is to have a 'neutral' place >for non-human souls without a Heart called Limbo that exists >in the Far Marches (or perhaps even the Farthest Marches). > Limbo is a grim, ugly place, made even grimmer by >the wandering spirits desperate for enough essence to rebind >their Forces. Not your best vacation spot, no. I like this notion -- I'd been somewhat missing Limbo. Perhaps it spreads over, bordering Beleth and Blandine's territory, both, and whichever side you incline to (demonic or angelic), you end up a bit further into that territory. The excommunication of Grigori would imply that either they can "pass on" like a human soul, into Heaven (there to be forgiven for the sins of their fathers, presumably?), or that they're stuck in the Limbo/Marches until they can craft themselves another Vessel? Maybe some Etherial Spirits are really Grigori or Grig-kin in disguise. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:44:24 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Religion > I wonder... just _who_ up there gets a kick out of Navajo > spirituality/shamanism... hmm...I know a couple of shamans, and three > elders, and I wonder if they'd be willing to talk about gaming... Jordi and maybe Novalis? Dotti and I were discussing totems just last night. We were debating whether "Bear", for instance, was an etherial spirit in the Marches, or perhaps a (once)powerful word-bound angel of Jordi. Or perhaps both. I can imagine Jordi adopting some of the totems in an effort to protect them and their charges during the Purges. > Rob Wolff / Bodhi > rob@v-wave.com Oops da Ogre, who's finally getting his email again (stupid server) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:50:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement At 11:33 AM -0500 3/11/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: > What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action >because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being >debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a >lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, >would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. >Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? The angel probably starts trying to figure out if the law could do evil more than good, while the demon thinks the angel is a sucker... If they both continue to think they're right, then likely they cooperate (or at least don't interfere with each other) in a wary truce, with both at arm's length. And may squabble about methods. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:35:24 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN> Yet another thought Something I thought that might be funny would be to involve creatures from the movie "Ghostbbusters". Let the PC's run up against Zhoul, or Gozer. Just a whacky thought. ************************************** _< >_ * Hatcher Rhanyr * / \0/ \ * "The Angel of Bright Shiney Teeth" * /_/| |\_\ * * / \ ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:14:01 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) On Mar 10, 7:33pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) > At 5:33 PM -0500 3/10/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > [...] > > LILIM > > > > > >The check digit determines the "level" of the desire that > >someone has, right? > > > >Nope. The level of difficulty in granting their desire. > > This is an unclear explanation to me... It's the level of > difficulty that the subject would experience in achieving > the desire, right? And if somebody has several needs, then > the CD determines which one gets picked up in, or so I > previously understood... Looking into this. (*flip flip flip*) Ah, I understand. You wording is much clearer, I'll reword that answer. > > [...] > > Disturbance > > > >Does switching to celestial form cause the same degree of > >disturbance in the Symphony as actually leaving or returning > >from the Celestial Realm? > > > >Yes. > Whaaaa? But there are already mechanics for that -- *one* Essence, > and no Will roll. It's bad enough that swapping is > a force 10 disturbance... p.54 lists the cost of taking Celestial form as 2 essence if the Will roll succeeds. p.55 adds the stipulation that taking Celestial form on earth causes a Disturbance equal to the Forces. p.49 lists the cost of moving between _Corporeal_ vessels as 1 essence, no roll. The basic premise for this is that the Celestial Form doesn't belong on earth and only great effort (and two essence) can make it appear there. The more Forces, the more impressive the Celestial Form, hence the more Disturbance. The extra two essence disturbance is just the standard for using essence in the Corporeal Realm. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:21:41 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice I'm looking for some ideas about one of my favorite literary imps: Mephistopheles, notorious tempter of Faust in Marlowe's and Goethe's works. I figure that, by this time, he's probably made it up to full demon rank, but I'm not sure who his superior would be or what Band he might end up in. Any suggestions? Coming soon: Phineas, Archangel of Tribes. And that certain Lilim I mentioned before. yours, - -j ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:37:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) At 3:14 PM -0500 3/11/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Mar 10, 7:33pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) >>At 5:33 PM -0500 3/10/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >>[...] >>> LILIM >>> >>>The check digit determines the "level" of the desire that >>>someone has, right? >>> >>>Nope. The level of difficulty in granting their desire. >> >>This is an unclear explanation to me... It's the level of >>difficulty that the subject would experience in achieving >>the desire, right? And if somebody has several needs, then >>the CD determines which one gets picked up in, or so I >>previously understood... > > Looking into this. (*flip flip flip*) Ah, I >understand. You wording is much clearer, I'll reword that answer. >>[...] >>> Disturbance >>> >>>Does switching to celestial form cause the same degree of >>>disturbance in the Symphony as actually leaving or returning >>>from the Celestial Realm? >>> >>>Yes. >>Whaaaa? But there are already mechanics for that -- *one* Essence, >>and no Will roll. It's bad enough that swapping is >>a force 10 disturbance... > > p.54 lists the cost of taking Celestial form as 2 essence >if the Will roll succeeds. p.55 adds the stipulation that >taking Celestial form on earth causes a Disturbance equal >to the Forces. p.49 lists the cost of moving >between _Corporeal_ vessels as 1 essence, no roll. > > The basic premise for this is that the Celestial Form >doesn't belong on earth and only great effort (and two >essence) can make it appear there. The more Forces, the more >impressive the Celestial Form, hence the more Disturbance. >The extra two essence disturbance is just the standard for >using essence in the Corporeal Realm. I'm confused here, I think -- the swapping, right, fine, but the way the question was worded seemed to indicate that to change forms, the person had to pay *2* essence (rather than just one), with that attendant noise. I think it could also have been read to indicate you had to do a will roll to swap vessels, rather than letting it be automatic. That was what I was protesting -- a perceived lean to rules that would read: "To swap vessels, first assume Celestial Form (2 Essence and a Will roll; Total Noise: [Forces]+2), then assume your other Corporeal form (Noise: [Forces])." Instead of: "To swap vessels, spend 1 Essence and flow from one to the other over the course of a round (Total Noise: [Forces]+1)." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 97 15:38:05 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: IN> Religion >Gregory Littman: >That sounds good. Does it apply equally to the Archangels though? Wouldn't >Michael have had enough of a chat with the Almighty to know who Jesus was? >At the very least, wouldn't SOME Angel have checked out Jesus 2,000 years ago >just to see if the miracles were real, if nothing else. God isn't talking. And even if a celestial checked Jesus out, just like they can't tell if another celestial is occupying a vessel, how could they tell if that was God in that human vessel? (And in Christian theology, that was more than a vessel, that was a truly human being as much as it was truly divine.) And even if a celestial knew something, that doesn't mean other celestials would believe that celestial. A good number of people didn't believe the disciples of Jesus who said that they witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. IOW, religion is not much different among celestials than it is among humans. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:02:48 +0800 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: IN> Flavor in the game ...I think that using characters from similar backgrounds as IN, not as major roles, but as cameos and such would lend great flavor to the game. Characters such as Jesse and Cassidy from Preacher, any of the Endless, John Constantine from Hellblazer, Tim Hunter from the Books of Magic, etc. Anyone else have ideas on this? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:05:47 +0800 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: IN> Magick, Invocations and Rituals Rite of Binding The rite of Binding usually accompanies the rite of Summoning, locking the conjured being into service. This forced indenture is an Active form of magick which only affects non-corporeal beings. The target of the attempt may resist with a Will roll, which, if successful, prevents the magus from attempting again for {target's Will} hours. The only problem is, the target is still present... However, if the magick is successful, the target must do the performer's bidding, willing or not, for {Ritual Level * Check Digit} hours. Target: Base - {target's Ethereal (spirit) or Celestial (celestial) Forces} Essence Requirement: Base + {target's Ethereal (spirit) or Celestial (celestial) Forces} Essence Divining Divination, which may take the form of an invocation or a ritual, allows the user to detect the location and general state of any thing or being. This form of magick is Passive. The performer must him/herself know the target, its name (though not its true name), and/or a general description. As the magick is being performed, it must be directed to a specific plane of existance. Target: Base; if divining a plane the user is not currently manifested on, the target is Base - {Essence Cost} Essence Requirement: Divining the Corporeal: Base; Divining the Ethereal: Base + 3 Essence; Divining the Celestial: Base + 5 Essence Protection Used as an invocation or a ritual, these magicks wrap the Symphony about the user in a protective blanket. This is Passive magick if it is magick at all, for some speculate that it is simply falling so deep within the notes of the Symphony, by releasing all of one's Essence into it, that no variations in it can affect you. A successful roll protects the performer for {Invocation or Ritual Level * Check Digit} rounds, decreasing the target numbers of any Symphonic action against him or her by {Check Digit}. Target: Base Essence Requirement: Total remaining Essence Rite of Summoning Summoning, which is a form of Active magick, is risky buisness to say the least, and as such is usually accompanied by a rite of Binding or some form of protective magick. By casting into the Symphony and calling upon a being with its true name, the performer pulls the targets Essence through the planes to his or her location. The summoned being manifests in their celestial or ethereal form, and as such one cannot summon a corporeal being. When called, the target may attempt to resist the summons with a Will roll, which if successful prevents the performer from attempting another summoning for {target's Will} hours. Summoning requires that the True Name of the subject is known, which may lead to adventures in search of such sacred names. Target: Base - {target's Ethereal (spirit) or Celestial (celestial) Forces} Essence Requirement: Base + {target's Ethereal (spirit) or Celestial (celestial) Forces} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:55:11 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) > >>Whaaaa? But there are already mechanics for that -- *one* Essence, > >>and no Will roll. It's bad enough that swapping is > >>a force 10 disturbance... > > > > p.54 lists the cost of taking Celestial form as 2 essence > >if the Will roll succeeds. p.55 adds the stipulation that > >taking Celestial form on earth causes a Disturbance equal > >to the Forces. p.49 lists the cost of moving > >between _Corporeal_ vessels as 1 essence, no roll. > > > > The basic premise for this is that the Celestial Form > >doesn't belong on earth and only great effort (and two > >essence) can make it appear there. The more Forces, the more > >impressive the Celestial Form, hence the more Disturbance. > >The extra two essence disturbance is just the standard for > >using essence in the Corporeal Realm. > > I'm confused here, I think -- the swapping, right, fine, but > the way the question was worded seemed to indicate that to > change forms, the person had to pay *2* essence (rather than > just one), with that attendant noise. I think it could > also have been read to indicate you had to do a will roll to > swap vessels, rather than letting it be automatic. > > That was what I was protesting -- a perceived lean to rules that > would read: "To swap vessels, first assume Celestial Form (2 > Essence and a Will roll; Total Noise: [Forces]+2), then assume > your other Corporeal form (Noise: [Forces])." > > Instead of: "To swap vessels, spend 1 Essence and flow from one > to the other over the course of a round (Total Noise: [Forces]+1)." Whoa. I think I know where the confusion is coming from. The rules on p. 54-55 only list going to _Celestial_ Form as being noisy, NOT going to a Corporeal Form. Entering a Corporeal Vessel causes NO disturbance unless you need Essence to do it. So swapping Corporeal forms causes 1 Disturbance total. The only time I know of that going into a Corporeal Vessel will cause a lot of disturbance is when you do it while entering the Corporeal Realm (i.e. you manifest on Earth). Since there is no cost listed for assuming a Corporeal Vessel when one is Celestial on earth, I must assume that there is no cost and that makes no Disturbance. Here's a breakdown of some common situations and the Disturbance produced for each: Going from Heaven to Earth into a Vessel: Forces Going from Corporeal Vessel to Heaven successfully: Forces+2+Forces Assuming Celestial Form on Earth: Forces+2 Switching Corporeal Vessels: 1 Enter Corporeal Vessel while Celestial on Earth: 0 - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:25:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Songs and Vessels Okay, you've gone and sung yourself some Claws so you can walk the bad part of town and have a fair chance of scaring the [celestial realm] out of any muggers (just imagine their reaction when their target flips a finger at them -- and then the 6 inch claw appears on the end...). Then, for whatever reason, you decide that you need to change form -- say, to your alley-cat so you can climb up a tree and jump on someone who's been following you. Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* [*Mallet space is where anime characters keep their hyperspatial hammers/mallets, which they bop other characters on the head for, to deliver Bonk.] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:32:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) At 4:55 PM -0500 3/11/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: [...] >> I'm confused here, I think -- the swapping, right, fine, but >> the way the question was worded seemed to indicate that to >> change forms, the person had to pay *2* essence (rather than >> just one), with that attendant noise. I think it could >> also have been read to indicate you had to do a will roll to >> swap vessels, rather than letting it be automatic. >> >> That was what I was protesting -- a perceived lean to rules that >> would read: "To swap vessels, first assume Celestial Form (2 >> Essence and a Will roll; Total Noise: [Forces]+2), then assume >> your other Corporeal form (Noise: [Forces])." >> >> Instead of: "To swap vessels, spend 1 Essence and flow from one >> to the other over the course of a round (Total Noise: [Forces]+1)." > > Whoa. I think I know where the confusion is coming from. >The rules on p. 54-55 only list going to _Celestial_ Form as >being noisy, NOT going to a Corporeal Form. Entering a Corporeal >Vessel causes NO disturbance unless you need Essence to do it. >So swapping Corporeal forms causes 1 Disturbance total. Except that Moriah ruled that swapping forms created a Noise equal to Forces -- similar to going full celestial (I think along the lines that celestials creeping away from a fight as mice was annoying...). > The only time I know of that going into a Corporeal >Vessel will cause a lot of disturbance is when you do it while >entering the Corporeal Realm (i.e. you manifest on Earth). > Since there is no cost listed for assuming a Corporeal >Vessel when one is Celestial on earth, I must assume that there >is no cost and that makes no Disturbance. Moriah changed that, IIRC. I have looked and cannot find the email where he did that, to my annoyance... Ah, here it is. I'll include at the end. > Here's a breakdown of some common situations and the > Disturbance produced for each: >Going from Heaven to Earth into a Vessel: Forces >Going from Corporeal Vessel to Heaven successfully: Forces+2+Forces >Assuming Celestial Form on Earth: Forces+2 >Switching Corporeal Vessels: 1 >Enter Corporeal Vessel while Celestial on Earth: 0 Except for the switching, is-cool. The way the questions were in the FAQ was implying that "Switching Corporeal Vessels" was going to be Forces+2 or even Forces+2+Forces, rather than Moriah's current Forces+1. At least, that was how I was reading them together. - ------ Date: 20 Feb 97 22:24:08 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: IN> [Canon] Some Q's... Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [...] >>(ii) Does switching to celestial form cause the same degree of disturbance in >>the Symphony as actually leaving or returning from the Celestial Realm? Does >>the 2 essence required to change into Celestial form add to this? If >>switching form does cause the same disturbance, does a celestial going to the >>Celestial Realm cause double the disturbance (once for changing form, and >>again for leaving)? > > Yes. Yes. Yes, although entering doesn't cause double since one enters >the Corporeal Realm directly into a vessel. > > As a general guideline, GMs should always make the Disturbance rules side >with celestial powers being as noisy as possible. Celestial powers make >celestials hot stuff on earth, but there is always risk involved -- being >noticed. The 2 Essence is added since there are times when a celestial >doesn't have to spend that Essence, e.g., transforming in a Tether (although, >compared to the noise a Tether makes, who would notice?). > > And, since it's been discussed on the list, here. Let me add that >switching vessels should be as loud as going celestial. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:07:57 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! First of all, I'm new to the list, so I'll say a big Hi! to everyone out there. Secondly I'm intrigued by these new Archangels, demons and Princes that people send to the list. If anyone has any of these saved up on their hard drives and have a moment could they please forward copies of these to me? Thanks, I look forward to joining in the conversations. Leath. "Oh, Lisa, you and your stories. Bart is a vampire, beer kills brain cells. Now let's go back to that.. building... thingy... where our beds and TV.... is." -Homer Simpson. Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:44:53 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Riders and Hosts On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: > Thinking about the "getting use to the host" idea, do Riders automatically > get easy use of the facilities of the Host. As Kyrioate's do not get access > to the mind or memories of their Host they might not ba able to use the > physical abilities of their Host as well as the Host does. Eg a newly > created Kryioate goes to earth and seeing a pigeon decides to possess it. > Does the *Pigeon* fall out of the sky as the Kyrioate now alone in possesion > of the piegon's body has little idea of how to use it to stay in the air? > > I can see that the previously non-physical celestial beings would get the > grasp of things like momentum and gravity pretty quick, but flight (and > other animal skills) are harder to learn and not so obvious. It is possible > that their connection to the Symphony give the celestials access to those > sorts of knowledges while they are in a particular Host. I've been reading a book called 'The Holographic Universe' lately. It gets really metaphysical, but the first chapter talks about the theorized holographic nature of the brain (that is, instead of data being stored as distinct 'bit's in certain locations in the, it is store as a complex interference pattern, waves of signals rippling and crisscrossing across the brain). This has a few quirks, like massive storage capacity (it's estimated that, using holography, a 1" square of normal photgraphic film can store the equivalent of 50 Bibles) and every part of the hologram or brain holding /all/ the information (cut out a hunk, and you don't lose a hunk of teh image, it just loses a little clarity). This also explains how we learn physical tasks. Our brain stores it not as a distinct series of muscle movements, but as a fluid, wave-like pattern which works just dandily with the wave-interference method of storage. The pattern is imprinted into the brain as a whole. This is why you never really forget how to ride a bike. This may be a bit long-winded (I'm sleep-deprived, cope), but for this reason, I would allow Riders on either side of the War to access certain physical skills known by the host. Not combat skills, because they rely partly on tactics, knowledge of techniques and learning to acticipate the other guy's moves, or anything that involves an actual Skill on the charsheet for that matter, but walking, bike riding, flying, those sorts of physical skills, I would allow due to the Rider using the brain that the patterns are imprinted on. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #67 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.