From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 12 17:55:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13853; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:54:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28983 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:57:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:57:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199703122357.RAA28983@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #69 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 069 In this digest: Re: IN> Number of celestials? Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #68 IN>New Skill Re: IN> Celestial Agreement Re: IN> Ponderables IN>Announcing another play by mail campaign Re: IN> Celestial Agreement Re: IN> Highlander Race---- The Churahn Re: IN> Celestial Agreement Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Songs and Vessels Re: IN> Number of celestials? Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Re: IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi Breeding again (Re: IN> Ponderables) Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:16:49 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Number of celestials? Molt said:- > > Just wondering, with people coming up with this 1 tether for 1 million people > thing, what do people see as the number of active celestials on the Earth? > And the number of Soldiers, undead etc? Hmmm, I was thinking on this the other day. I reckon about, say, 1 celestial per 10 thousand mundanes, perhaps? That means there's about 75 celestials kicking about Glasgow (Pop approx 750k in the city limits), and about 700 (!) around London (Pop approx 7 million or thereabouts). Does that sound about right? Anyone? Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:02:01 -0500 From: "Don Jerman" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels On 12 Mar 97 at 8:02, Bremstrahlung X wrote: > Animals can't have roles, if I remember correctly. Which makes sense > for most animals, but how about, say, a Cherubim devoted to > protecting someone, whose role was the person's Guard Dog: The > obvious use would be to muffles disturbances in the symphony > stopping people breaking into his charge's house. And other pets > could have roles too, though they would be less useful. > Obviously Status would be a moot point: I would put it at One for > all animal guards. What about Rin-Tin-Tin? Lassie? Benjie? Mike the Wonder Dog? - -- Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice In a message dated 97-03-11 20:02:53 EST, IQJason@aol.com writes: > I'm looking for some ideas about one of my favorite literary imps: > Mephistopheles, notorious tempter of Faust in Marlowe's and Goethe's works. For the literary Mephistopheles, I'd also suggest you look at a good translation of the libretto of Boito's opera _Mefistofele_. There's a lot of great stuff in a few of Mefi's arias which might lead one to a thought or two on word and superior... I'll see if I can find my score and post an excerpt or two... For the "historic" Mephistopheles, he was said to be one of the seven princes of Hell, so he was a pretty heavy hitter, and in many of the grimoires that floated around bearing Dr. Faust's name, Mephistopheles was assumed to be a fully empowered stand-in for Satan. I think he's been a Demon from the first, really. Nothing in Goethe leads me to believe otherwise, and I've not read Marlowe in a LONG time. Etymological hoohah from Davidson... He translates "Mephistophiel" as "he who loves not the light", but derives the name from Hebrew "mephiz"="destroyer" and "tophel"="liar". I personally would make Mephistopheles a Prince, probably a Balseraph, and give him a word like "Corruption" which he interprets primarily in the moral sense. Whereas many of the other Princes believe in direct action, Mephistopheles delights in the slow, unwitting decline of civilization, especially when that decline masquerades as virtue. Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:21:31 -0500 (EST) From: morpheus@ici.net (anthony medeiros) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #68 >Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:45:49 -0500 >From: Hatcher Rhanyr >Subject: IN> Highlander Race---- The Churahn > >This is what I've come up with as far as characters that I've adapted to >IN from the movie Highlander. Please tell me what you think of this. Your mythology/system is decidedly different from the one I created for my IN game but its still quite interesting. My Immortals start at seven Forces and get an extra six levels of skills. I let Immortals gain Forces from the Quickening (divided essence, rounded down) in addition to some extra skill points. Over time their weapons can become talismans or even relics/reliquaries (indicating the strong bond an Immortal has with his/her blade and its continued contact with quasi-Celestial power). I do allow Immortals to rise to nine or more Forces, but without significant backing from a Superior they do not become full-fledged angels/demons. This keeps the Immortals condemned to roam the Earth in a continual struggle to see who will be the last. When Immortals sense each other the check digit determines how much time they have to react. (1-6=one to six rounds). Also when they first meet they feel a powerful Need/Geas to fight each other. This is temporarily overcome with a Will roll minus the level of the Geas. The check digit determines the amount of time that passes before the desire to fight that particular Immortal again. (one=one day, two=one week, three=one month, four=six months, five=one year, six=three years). The Geas level increases by one each time the Immortals meet again therefore it becomes harder to resist with each meeting. Ultimately even the closest of friends/lovers may be overcome with the desire/need to kill each other. An Immortal can have varying levels of Geas towards many different Immortals. Tell me what you all think. - -Crucis, Malikite of Michael ( I switched. Laurence was just too close to Christianity for my liking!) >I don't like the idea of celestials interbreeding with corporeal life forms. >Here's *my* idea on how to handle the problem: Vessels aren't fertile, >unless *specifically* designed that way, and this is prohibited by the >Powers That Be, due to the whole mess with the Grigori. Angels would want to >minimize the disturbance to humanity as a whole, and the Infernal forces >would be afraid of the backlash and uprisings against them if such crosses >were to actually happen. OK, maybe some celestial who's about to be Outcast >or go Renegade might do it *anyway*... but it ought to be *awfully* rare. And the physical birth of a Celestial on Earth should cause a disturbance (if only a minor one) in the Symphony. The child's growing up would be interesting to say the least. There would just be something odd which sets this child apart from most humans... - -Crucis, Malakite of Michael (I switched as Laurence was just too close to Christianity for my liking!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:35:53 -0500 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: IN>New Skill Lucid Dreaming (the higher of Precision or Will) Default: None More of a talent than a skill, Lucid Dreaming is the ability to exert some measure of control over one's own dreamscape in the Ethereal realm, or even that of another's, at greater difficulty [Base - Ethereal Forces of scape's owner], however, the user does NOT gain the ability to travel from one scape to another. While dreaming, the user may cause anything to appear, occur, etc., limited only by their imagination (and roleplaying talents), with a roll against a target of [Total Forces]. In their own dreamscape, there is no modifier. If another being is present in their scape, and the user wishes to affect them in some way, the target may resist with a Will roll, aided by their Lucid Dreaming level if they have it. Affecting other beings in a scape other than one's own also has a modifier of [Ethereal Forces of scape's owner]. Another effect of Lucid Dreaming is that its level is added to any skill the user has while dreaming, or replaces the default of any unknown skill or other ability. On the other hand, Lucid Dreaming itself has no default, and cannot be attempted if it is not known at some level. "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force..." Brian Gracey/Sanvi s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu sanvi@geocities.com The Celestial War: an In Nomine page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6889 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > At 11:33 AM 3/11/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > > > > What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action > >because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being > >debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a > >lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, > >would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. > >Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? > > Either they call their own views into question or they think the other > side's an idiot. Why an idiot? Do you think that anyone who disagrees with YOU over a moral point is an idiot? IMHO, moral issues are famous for having perfectly intelligent people on both sides of them. For example, not everyone who is for or against legalising abortion is a fool - even though not everyone who is for or against legalising abortion is right. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:56:53 -0500 (EST) From: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) Subject: Re: IN> Ponderables Hello! First some spoilers, just in case one of my players is listening. g o b l i n d a m n e d Sic scribit Michael C. Nutt: > > I don't like the idea of celestials interbreeding with corporeal life forms. > Here's *my* idea on how to handle the problem: Vessels aren't fertile, > unless *specifically* designed that way, and this is prohibited by the > Powers That Be, due to the whole mess with the Grigori. Angels would want to > minimize the disturbance to humanity as a whole, and the Infernal forces > would be afraid of the backlash and uprisings against them if such crosses > were to actually happen. OK, maybe some celestial who's about to be Outcast > or go Renegade might do it *anyway*... but it ought to be *awfully* rare. > My campaign, "Ministers of Grace," takes a similar approach with respect to celestial-human sex: for it to happen, certain involved rituals must be observed, a vessel must be prepared. The Grigori affair, as Michael notes, has resulted in an Archangelic prohibition against interbreeding, and most angels readily go along with this restriction. Outcasts are occasionally tempted in this direction, but even they avoid becoming parents. Esp. since Dominic makes the violation of the prohibition a top priority for his inquisitors. I'll differ with Michael insofar as I do see demons and their Princes readily taking advantage of the unique powers of a human-celestial child. Merlin would be an example of such offspring and its potential (sired by an incubus upon his nun mother in several accounts). However, even here, Hell is careful to choose their time and place--children with diabolicical blood are not automatically Soldiers of Hell. There have no doubt been spectacular failures, children who turned against the Infernal parent and joined the side of Heaven. I want to make celestial-human reproduction a rare and wondrous thing b/c this will be the central plot hook for the campaign: at some point early on in "Ministers," the angels are going to realize that there's a virgin walking around Philadelphia who happens to be pregnant with a celestial child. What the angels do and how their Superiors and enemies react to this discovery will be driving my plots, so I need the pregnancy to be sufficiently beyond the pale. Is the child Grigori? Has an angel broken the rules? Is Yves planning something? Or is this the Second Coming/Antichrist? I like John's ideas, but they make celestial/human halfbreeds a bit too common (in my estimation). Best, Rob - -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * "He ran," the unicorn said. "You must never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention." - Peter S. Beagle, _The Last Unicorn_, 1968 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:16:16 -0500 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: IN>Announcing another play by mail campaign Well, I think that I am ready to start running my game, so anyone who would like to play, please mail me or check out the page for my campaign (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6889/campaign.html) where all information will be posted. I hope that some of you out there will join... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:39:21 -0600 (CST) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > Either they call their own views into question or they think the other > > side's an idiot. > > Why an idiot? Do you think that anyone who disagrees with YOU over a > moral point is an idiot? IMHO, moral issues are famous for having > perfectly intelligent people on both sides of them. For example, not > everyone who is for or against legalising abortion is a fool - even though > not > everyone who is for or against legalising abortion is right. Because they think that the other side is working for their goals. If I was in a war with someone and I saw them doing something that would ultimately benefit my side and hurt theirs, I'd think they were an idiot, too. Though I wouldn't tell them that... it might discourage them. Of course, I'd want to make damn sure that I was right about them helping me out... Bolie IV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:43:29 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> Highlander Race---- The Churahn On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: > This is what I've come up with as far as characters that I've adapted to > IN from the movie Highlander. Please tell me what you think of this. That's why I'm here... > *********************************************************************** > The Churahn [holy snip] > ... Yves knowing that this was all part of God's plan took the information > on how Eli created Churahn and gave it to Kronos, for him to deliver to > the Demon Princes. The Demon Princes repeated what the Archangels had > done and created another named Kaurneh. So, what about him? Was he fruitful and good at math? Or is this another post? [unholy snip] > ... God's last proclamation was that in the end there can be only one. That's a damn better explanation than Highlander 2... ...as if that was an effort. > GAME MECHANICS: > ... There are several rites that allow a Churahn to regain essence more > quickly though. As I type this, I have not noticed them in the post? > ABILITIES: > Sense Another > This ability is always in effect. When a Churahn gets within 100 ft of > another Churahn they mutually sense each other. On a successful > Perception roll the Churahn can also tell who exactly this Churahn is. I'd say that any Churahn/Kaurneh would have to buy this Ability at character creation (like Devour with Haagenti). Another suggestion: After killing another of their kind, any Churahn/Kaurneh may gain one Skill of their victim at half the level they had it (round down). - -- Disclaimer: "Damn...I was talking out loud again..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:10:03 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Bolie Williams IV wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > Either they call their own views into question or they think the other > > > side's an idiot. > > > > Why an idiot? [Snip!] > > Because they think that the other side is working for their goals. If > I was in a war with someone and I saw them doing something that would > ultimately benefit my side and hurt theirs, I'd think they were an > idiot, too. Though I wouldn't tell them that... it might discourage > them. Of course, I'd want to make damn sure that I was right about > them helping me out... > This is true, but it would be very unusual in a normal war for members of both sides to think that the same turn of events would each benefit THEIR cause. However, I think that moral wars are more subtle than that. After all, isn't the world full of people of who want to be on the side of Good fighting each other because they disagree about what that entails? WHy then should not such disagreers find themselves working towards the same goal if one of them wants to be on the side of Evil. I don't envisage this happening only rarely in a world such as that of In Nomine either. Given the tendency of people in favour of Good to work towards different goals, there should be Angels and Demons working towards the same goals all the time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:48:10 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels > What about Rin-Tin-Tin? Lassie? Benjie? Mike the Wonder Dog? > > -- Don All on television and obviously some obscure demonic plot :) Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:23:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels At 9:02 PM -0700 3/11/97, Bremstrahlung X wrote: >Animals can't have roles, if I remember correctly. Which makes sense for most >animals, but how about, say, a Cherubim devoted to protecting someone, whose >role was the person's Guard Dog: The obvious use would be to muffles >disturbances in the symphony stopping people breaking into his charge's house. >And other pets could have roles too, though they would be less useful. Yeah, I was thinking that there should be some animal Roles as well. I suppose the explanation might be that animals just aren't complex enough to have a Role that would mask celestial activity from the Symphony. If not, then Status 1 would be great. Guard Dog is one, Guide Dog would be another. Horses might get Roles -- Show Horse (requires Charisma and high Agility), Work Horse, Horse in a riding class... Cats can go from alley-cat to Show Cat, to the rare Attack Cat; Any Cat with a bought Role would have a chance to trip people (even at the top of the stairs!) without it disturbing the Symphony... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:27:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Vessels At 9:58 PM -0500 3/11/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Mar 11, 5:25pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the >> vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* > > Elizabeth... you just stay up _all_ night thinking >of these things don't you? ;) ;) ;) No -- I just thought of that one while I was waiting for the water to boil for some pasta. > Isn't it kinda unwieldy for a 18" long cat to have >6" long claws, though? ;) Only if you have them on all limbs, and keep them extended all the time. (Though I read a book called _Uncle Whiskers_ as a kid, about a cat who lost the use of both front legs. When he wanted to move slowly, he ooched along on the chest and crippled stump; when he wanted to move fast, he bounded along like a kangaroo and terrorized dogs, other cats, as well as mice, rats, and rabbits...) Just think how easy it might make it to climb someone's leg, eh? > The scary part is that Numious Corpus also can >influence your Celestial Form... and do Celestial damage. >Ouch. Ouch twice. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:27:21 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Number of celestials? David.Evans wrote: > > Molt said:- > > > > Just wondering, with people coming up with this 1 tether for 1 million people > > thing, what do people see as the number of active celestials on the Earth? > > And the number of Soldiers, undead etc? > > Hmmm, I was thinking on this the other day. I reckon about, say, 1 > celestial per 10 thousand mundanes, perhaps? That means there's about 75 > celestials kicking about Glasgow (Pop approx 750k in the city limits), > and about 700 (!) around London (Pop approx 7 million or thereabouts). > Does that sound about right? Anyone? > That honestly sounds like way too many. In IN, most celestials stay in their respective 'homebase', and relatively few are Earthly operatives. 700 in a city means the focus of the game changes to being one of a crowd - much like large Vampire campaigns, which dwelt on a mix of politics (Big-Name NPCs) and faceless violence (faceless NPCs). I'd give no hard and fast rule. In a major city, you'd have a handful of either side - enough to get the campaign moving. Word-bound Servitors are fairly rare, and there might be only one in a major city. Rule of Thumb: generally less than 10 for the average city, with about twice that for Big-Arse cities (London, New York etc). No more than one or two Tethers per city, with maybe 4-5 for the big places, Bear in mind that most fields of human endeavor don't require celestial intervention. The Demon of Pipe Bombs (to steal from the rulebook) doesn't have to manage every use of pipebombs in the world - just show up in selected places occasionally (like Belfast or Beirut) to give encouragement. Most of the time, humans manage on their own just fine. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You're perfect, yes it's true But without me you're only you Your menstruating heart It ain't bleedin' enough for two FAITH NO MORE, "Mid-Life Crisis" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:36:18 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Peter Frederick wrote: > > Dear Greg (and List) > > At 03:38 PM 11/3/97 EST, you wrote: > >>Gregory Littman: > >>That sounds good. Does it apply equally to the Archangels though? Wouldn't > >>Michael have had enough of a chat with the Almighty to know who Jesus was? > >>At the very least, wouldn't SOME Angel have checked out Jesus 2,000 years ago > >>just to see if the miracles were real, if nothing else. > > > > IMHO it is likely that the major figures of the worlds religions were either > Celestials (of either side playing out important Roles, were > visited by a Messenger of God or the sort of people who went on to be Saints > (as defined in game). Interesting to think what might have happened to > these spirits/souls. I am taken with an idea at the moment [Nod to Rob > Wolff / Bodhi] that Jesus and Buddha were the same person, well > reincarnated, but you get the idea. Further speculation as to who else > might have been reincarnations of whom is left to the interest of individuals. > I rather doubt that angels were behind any of the major prophets and earthly religions. There's a definite 'hands-off' rule applying to humanity at large, with exceptions for furthering the cause of a Word or assisting humans in vital areas. Demons might try to start false religions, but if they got caught they'd be in _serious_ trouble. Remember that one of IN's selling points (all those years ago) was that unlike WW's material (which had humanity being manipulated by the big supernatural powers throughout history), humans in IN really are the ones in charge of themselves. Almost everything happens because humans do it - with the occasional intervention/assistance of celestials. Jesus? Probably a Bodhisattva - an enlightened person. Same wih Buddha. Yves and Kronos would have been interested in both of them, and there was probably lots of celestials monitoring the situation, but odds on they were both human. As for being the same person, reincarnated - that's cute, I like that. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You're perfect, yes it's true But without me you're only you Your menstruating heart It ain't bleedin' enough for two FAITH NO MORE, "Mid-Life Crisis" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:39:39 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi Steven Feldon wrote: > > Has anyone else noticed that Jordi's servitor attunements. . . um, > aren't attunements at all, really? All of his servitors have one > ability: anything you do in your Proper Animal Form, barring genuinely > celestial activity, doesn't disturb the Symphony. > > This is a cool ability, but it's not in pattern for the rest of the > Archangels. I was wondering if this was an oversight or whehter this > ability is really more keen than I think it is. My co-ref and I were > considering giving Servitors of Jordi some additional marginal > abilities, too, like the ability to upgrade the Vessel level of animal > vessels after creation, or something like that. . . . > Gabriel's servitors usually don't get a bonus ability either - just a particular area to monitor. I think that's fine - I'm not usually concerned about things like 'play balance' and 'power levels'. If a player wants to be a Mercurian of Gabriel, knowing that they get no solid gane benefit from doing so, then that's fine. Similarly, the vessels of Jordi, not disturbing the Symphony is a terrific ability - virtual invisibility, in fact. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You're perfect, yes it's true But without me you're only you Your menstruating heart It ain't bleedin' enough for two FAITH NO MORE, "Mid-Life Crisis" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:41:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Breeding again (Re: IN> Ponderables) At 3:56 PM -0500 3/12/97, Robert Barrett wrote: [...] >I want to make celestial-human reproduction a rare and wondrous thing [...] > I like John's ideas, but they make celestial/human >halfbreeds a bit too common (in my estimation). Suppose that halfbreeds (esp. those of celestial souls) form a Cherub- like link with their celestial parent(s)? Then, if the kid is hurt, the parent(s) take dissonance (and possibly a *lot* of it!). That might restrict the choice to parent without there being a specific prohabition against it... Also, requiring the celestial parent(s) to give up Forces for the kid could stop most PCs from making *that* sacrifice... ("You want a half-breed? You gotta give up a Force. No, you don't get it back unless you pay the 10 character points for it. Life's tough. It's a sacrifice, an expression of selflessness. [for angels; for demons, it's the price you pay for long-term potential.]") Though it's probably quite true that the smart celestial should petition their Superior for permission before going around making half-breeds, even in a less "rare and wonderous thing" catagory. (I can see how the rare and wondrous aspect would really enhance things, though. I was thinking of it being rare as well, though something a celestial could do if it felt strongly about it. Sounds like it may forever be a house rule thing. :-J ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:16:37 -0600 (CST) From: mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Subject: Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! > First of all, I'm new to the list, so I'll say a big Hi! to everyone > out there. Hi. > Secondly I'm intrigued by these new Archangels, demons and Princes > that people send to the list. If anyone has any of these saved up on > their hard drives and have a moment could they please forward copies > of these to me? I've been collecting them for my web page, but thanks to a server crash, I have missed a few. Once I get all of this worked out, I will gladly send them to you. > Leath. Oops da Ogre, Have they updated the digests online yet? mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:48:02 -0800 From: "Joe Fulgham" Subject: IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) When I read the first message on this list about Jesus faking his death and the Knights Templar and the descendants of Jesus, etc. message, I though "Wow, that's *so* cool." I passed the message along to a friend who's very intersted in these things. He was a bible thumper, but is now an agnostic. As such, I value him highly for his wealth of information and objective viewpoint. It took quite a while for his reply, and it was so informative, I thought I'd pass it along to the rest of the list. This is him talking, not me. If you wish to flame this message via email, please don't flame me - send it to: umtarzwe@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca I'll pass along any replies on the list to him and his responses to that. - ------------------------------------------------------- Joey, You do love a mystery, my friend. It is actually a feature of Free Masonry that Jesus didn't die. In their version, he had children by Mary Magdalene. They were spirited off to Europe, and from Christ's descendants arose the Merovingian dynasty. Historically, King Merovingy was a 12th century French king who claimed he was a descendant of Christ. The alleged guardians the the modern descendants of Christ are the Knights Templar. The dynasty can be traced today to a man in his early 30s, a wealthy European aristocrat. Alas, I've forgotten his name, but it's available in the widely distributed book "Holy Blood and Holy Grail" Let me preface all my replies to the following claims by saying first of all that I have no axe to grind. Remember, I'm an agnostic now. My only interest is the truth, which broadly means widely accepted, verifiable, historical claims (insofar as history can be verified) > Anyway... the letter referred to here is avaiable from the Library of > Congress If so, please provide me the ISBN number. I'm always extremely suspicious of "Long lost documents found!" claims, especially when scholars, who would be incredibly interested in such things, aren't even discussing them. Remember, even the Dead Sea Scrolls made Time magazine. An authenticated letter from Pilate to Caesar would definitely make some headlines in North American media. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jesus died in Kashmir is difficult to find. I found it in my > University's library. The basis of the book is as follows: > > 1. There's an authenticated letter from Pontius Pilate to Caesar > stating that this Jesus guy was pretty cool, preached peace, and was > more of a friend to the Romans than the Jewish Priests were, because > at least he wanted things to be a quiet revolution. Actually, there is almost nothing known about Pilate except that he was, indeed, the Roman governor in Jerusalem. He was recalled from the post because of the crappy job he did and then sent on an even more obscure assignment, where he vanishes from history. > > 2. Pontius Pilate, when he could've crucified Jesus at any time he > wanted, chose to crucify him on Friday afternoon. Actually, Pilate didn't see Jesus for the first time until Wednesday afternoon, and he dismissed the case as spurious. Then, after Jesus confessed to being the Christ at the trial before the Sanhedrin, well after midnight on Thursday, he was remanded to Pilate's custody. Jesus was then flogged and presented to the crowd on Friday morning. According to the gospels, it was Pilate's custom to release a prisoner on the day before the high feast (the Passover), which would have been Friday. The crowd shouted, "Release Barabbas, crucify Jesus" sealing Christ's fate. >By Jewish Law, > crucifixion victims were taken down at the Sabbath, which started > Friday Sundown. Christ was on the cross for only about 3-4 hours... Actually, Jesus was on the cross since Friday morning, probably around 9 am, and he would have been down no later than 6 pm, thus making the total possible time closer to 9 hours. Before Christ was crucified, he was flogged a second time. More on that below. > but Crucifixion is supposed to be a death through exposure...Pilate > didn't really want Christ dead, so he put him up for a 'token > punishment'. Crucifixion is partly death by exposure. The victim normally dies by suffocation. The process is rather gruesome. With your arms behind and above you, you can't breathe. So, you push up with your feet, which have a spike through them, enabling you to breathe. The pain causes you to nearly faint, and you sink down again, losing the ability to breathe, and now your weight is supported by your wrists, which also have spikes through them. Crucifixion victims would actually porpoise up and down in unbearable pain so they could both breathe and attept to distribute the pain. Eventually, they would grow exhausted, be unable to continue porpoising, and suffocate. The internal trauma caused by the crucifixion and the prior flogging would also contribute to suffocation by fluid accumulation in the lungs. The reason the two thieves' legs were broken was so that they could no longer porpoise up and down. This would hasten suffocation and death. Jesus' legs were not broken, indicating that he was no longer porpoising, implying that he had already succumbed. Given the floggings he received, this is not surprising. So what about those floggings? They were administered by two men, called "lecters". The whip was fashioned out of leather chords which had small iron balls and chunks of broken glass woven into them. The job of the lecters was to stop just short of the victim going into a coma. The victim's back would suffer severe lacerations, contusions, and often internal organs would be visible through the shredded flesh by the time the lecters were finished their work. Nice, eh? The comment about Pilate's "real" motivation is pure, unsubstantiated speculation, and nothing need be said about that, other than to point out it's entirely speculative nature without basis in available historical facts of any kind. > 3. Christ was stabbed through the side in a manner in keeping with > Jewish Torture traditions. The wound is bloody, painful, and you > actually excrete a certain amount of clear-bloody liquid from a > ruptured organ (can't remember which or how right now, sorry), but > you don't die from it by a long shot! It looks messy, and is a great > scare tactic, but you don't die. Unfortunately, Jesus was pierced by a Roman soldier, who wouldn't have given a rat's ass about Jewish torture traditions. The cross would have had Jesus side about 10 feet in the air. From that angle, the most likely organ the spear would have penetrated would be a lung, and possibly the heart. Remember, once in the side, the spear went up, not deeper into the side. If you stab up into someone at a shallow angle, from just below the rib-cage, you'll pierce their diaphraghm, their lung, and possibly the pericardial sack. Clear fluid is consistent with known crucifixion pathology of suffocation and fluid build-up in the lungs. The blood would have been the direct result of the spear wound. > 4. Christ was interred in a tomb that was donated at the last minute > by a wealthy landowner. Joseph of Arimathea, a secret disciple of Jesus and also a member of the Sandhedrin. He followed Jesus secretly because he did not want to jeopardize his position on the Jewish ruling body. >The tomb was big enough for at least 3 > people to stand in (according to the description), but this was > totally against Jewish burial customs at that place and time. Oh? And what Jewish burial customs are these? It was very common for tombs to be large so that many, many people could be buried in them, by being lain on shelves hewn out of the rock. Jesus' burial by being tightly wrapped in spiced sheets is thoroughly traditional. >What's > more, this 'donated tomb' has many strange features about it if one > wants to bury some poor criminal in a desert climate, Remember, Joseph of Arimathea, didn't see Jesus as "some poor criminal." This confuses Pilate's opinion of Jesus with Joseph's, and the two must not be mixed. The fact that Joseph donated his own tomb, an incredibly expensive and sacred item, is a measure of Joseph's devotion to Jesus. Also bear in mind that Joseph, as a member of the Sanhedrin, was no lover of the Roman occupation, and it is very unlikely he would have colluded with the gentile governor Pilate. >but it makes a > great place for somebody to kill three days while they wait to be > rescued from a 'faked death'. 100 percent sheer, bald-ass speculation once again. Offer me even one fact in support of this claim. > 5. Documents from various places across ancient Arabia, India, and > the near East document Christ's training as a mystic, a yogi, and a > guru before he returned to teach in Judea around the time of his > thirtieth birthday. What documents? Why are these not known to serious historians and scholars? And puhleese, don't give me that old, tired suppression by the Catholic church conspiracy theory. >Documents from his old 'haunts' also document > his flight back through these towns after faking his death. Ditto above. > 6. Towns along this trail are suspiciously named things in Arabic, > Hindi, etc., that translate as "christ-town", and "jesus-ville" and > so on. Well, umm, so? Remember that the name "Jesus" was no more remarkable in his day than the name "John" is in our own day. In fact, "Jesus" is simply the Greek translation of Joshua, a thoroughly unremarkable name, and also the name Jesus would have been known by in his native Aramaic. What's so unusual about a town named "Joshua"? To pin this back to Jesus of Nazareth, without independent evidence, is stretching credibility. "Christ" simply means "Anointed one." The above comments also apply here, in addition to the fact that everybody and his dog was claiming to be a "Christ" in Jesus' day. There was a huge messianic expectation among the people, fuelled by the hated Roman occupation. Anyone who took a stand against the Romans, a pretty crazy yet brave kind of move, was looked to as an inspiring source of political energy--an anointed one--a Christ. > 7. One of the towns along the way has the tomb of Mary, Jesus' > mother, who legend has it died while fleeing with him. What legend? > 8. Kashmir has the final tomb of Jesus Christ as a local shrine. It > is documented as being built around the time Christ would've died of > a natural old age. Please point me to a book where I can see this for myself. I am sceptical. No, I do not take the author of this letter's word for it. > 9. One family name in Kashmir can actually trace their geneology > back to Jesus Christ. There are surviving members of this family > whom the entier community accepts as living descendants of Christ. Yes, and see my comments above re the Merovingians. I'm sure we could fill BC Place stadium with "accepted living descendants of Christ." > It's interesting reading, well documented, and from an archaeological > viewpoint, pretty good stuff. Interesting, yes. Well documented? It can't be much worse documented than this letter. Pretty good archaeologically? Again, I suspend judgement. Even with the paltry knowledge I have, a lot of these claims simply don't stand up. Face it: when they took Jesus off the cross, he was dead, man--dead as a doornail. His back was hamburger, he suffocated on the cross, and he had a spear shoved through his lung. Then, he got *tightly* wrapped up in forty pounds (Yes, *forty*) of spiced sheets and left alone. Furthermore, a rock was shoved in the tomb, and a seal was put on the rock, so there sure weren't any doctors going in there. He was dead. The real question is, did he rise from the dead? Maybe yes, and maybe no, but he sure as hell didn't fake his death. Who among us could possibly survive such an ordeal and then mount a comeback as a great conquering hero? "Hey! Jesus! Wow, man, you're looking great! Oops, was that your kidney that just fell out?" Anyway, thanks for sending the letter. Please feel free to forward my replies back to the originator. I welcome an exchange. Rob ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #69 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.