From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Mar 16 12:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15737; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:51:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA30149 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:54:36 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:54:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199703161854.MAA30149@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #73 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, March 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 073 In this digest: Re: IN>The Seductions of Night Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Re: IN>The Seductions of Night Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #72 Re: IN>The Seductions of Night IN> New Suggested Reading... Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Re: IN>The Seductions of Night IN> IN: The Hard Cover Version Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Re: IN> Ponderables Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Re: IN> INS/MV v. IN Re: IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... Re: IN> Religion IN> Celestial names Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Religion IN> Fae Lands IN> More Fae IN> Secret Bible Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:31:16 -0500 From: Neil Goldman Subject: Re: IN>The Seductions of Night Brian Gracey wrote: > > I still need players folks. I have one, and have begun with his prelude, > but I need at least two or three more to make the game truly > interesting...join up, it's fun, I promise... > > All > Sanvi > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Brian Gracey | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah join his game its gonna be really good. Come on we need players ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:26:38 -0800 From: Perry Lyons Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Bodhi wrote: > "There's an 'R' !!!" the Pope was screaming, pointing to a book. > "There's an 'R' !!!" he sat down with a dull look in his eyes. > > "... It says ... celebRate!!!" Gyahhhh!, You're a servitor of Kobal, aren't you!!!!? Hillarious joke though. I told it to the Preist at my church (Whom I'm trying to get to play) and he loved it. Oh and i'm new to the list, Hi everyone! Perry Lyons ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:27:48 -0800 From: Perry Lyons Subject: Re: IN>The Seductions of Night Neil Goldman wrote: > > Brian Gracey wrote: > > > > I still need players folks. I have one, and have begun with his prelude, > > but I need at least two or three more to make the game truly > > interesting...join up, it's fun, I promise... > > > > All > > Sanvi > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | Brian Gracey | > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah join his game its gonna be really good. Come on we need players Where shall this game be, If it's pbem or such , i'm interested!!! Is it angellic or demonic? Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:30:27 -0800 From: Perry Lyons Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion Michael C. Nutt wrote: > > If you volunteer, you're obviously *not* furthering the Word of > Apathy, and are thus disqualified. > > Michael Hmmm how bout a demon prince of abuse? Considering the outbreaks of domestic violence plaguing our society, the word of abuse would be hideously coveted. Probably be held by a Shedim too, they seem to be into that sort of thing, course as a shedim, i guess that would qualify me..... Perry, Shedim, and (Hopefully) soon word bound ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:33:13 -0500 From: "Stephen B. Mann" Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat > > "There's an 'R' !!!" the Pope was screaming, pointing to a book. > > "There's an 'R' !!!" he sat down with a dull look in his eyes. > > > > "... It says ... celebRate!!!" > > > Huh I don't get it am I the only one or is this just really stupid Celibate vs Celebrate - -- Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu Webmaster Center on English Learning & Achievement http://www.albany.edu/cela ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:40:38 +0000 From: Ross Winn Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #72 Someone wrote: > "Seperate race"=the origin of the Daoine Sidhe, descendants of the Tuatha > de Danaan, the Irish fae. "heathen dead"=the Scots *sluagh* are the souls > of the restless, unshriven dead gone raiding. "minor demons"=a number of > Christian texts describe faeries as such. "minor angels"=the Fae have > been described as the neutral angels, condemned to existance on Earth and > denied Heaven for their holding back during the War. This legend is > Icelandic in at least one incarnation; another Icelandic legend states > that the faeries are Eve's children--the unwashed ones she tried to hide > when God visited her one day (being omnipotent, God saw through this > deception and decreed that the faeries would always be the "hidden > people," the *huldufolk*). Gee, who were those guys in the back of the choirs..? Grigori, hmmmmm. That's the ticket. Peace, Spyke! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:45:30 -0500 From: Neil Goldman Subject: Re: IN>The Seductions of Night Perry Lyons wrote: > > Neil Goldman wrote: > > > > Brian Gracey wrote: > > > > > > I still need players folks. I have one, and have begun with his prelude, > > > but I need at least two or three more to make the game truly > > > interesting...join up, it's fun, I promise... > > > > > > All > > > Sanvi > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | Brian Gracey | > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yeah join his game its gonna be really good. Come on we need players > > Where shall this game be, If it's pbem or such , i'm interested!!! > Is it angellic or demonic? > Perry talk to him in e-mail he;s the one running it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:11:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Durall Subject: IN> New Suggested Reading... Just got back from the bookstore and found copies of the first two of a trilogy dealing with the Grigori. Written by British sci-fantasy author Storm Constantine, the title of the first is "Stalking Tender Prey," while the second is "Scenting Hallowed Ground." No idea on the title of the third. These are recent releases, and likely to be British only at this time (my copies were Creed Signet imports). They look to be more of a horror take on the Watchers, but definitely will provide a trove of inspirational material for those interested in the Grigori for use in their campaigns. The opening section is a short essay, "The Grigori Cometh," based on the research SC was able to do, with a long list of sources in the introduction. It looks like the books will provide details of the movers and shakers of the Grigori society, as well as some of their "Choirs," named in the intro as the Zamzummim (the Achievers), Emim (the Terrors), Rephaim (the Weakeners), and Gibborium (the Giants). Haven't read the books yet, but the idea of different Choirs of Grigori, perhaps with radically different goals and alliances, is really appealing to me. It's already become the secret backbone of my campaign. When I'm finished with the books, I'll try writing the aforementioned Grigori groups up and posting them to the list for those interested. _________ Jason Durall triton@seanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:28:27 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Neil Goldman wrote: > Huh I don't get it am I the only one or is this just really stupid It took me a while...try reading it out loud. - -- "Moments ago, I had everything; Now, I have a cow in my nose. This state will continue forever Because I opened the stupid door." - _La Salla_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:10:30 -0500 From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: Re: IN>The Seductions of Night >Where shall this game be, If it's pbem or such , i'm interested!!! >Is it angellic or demonic? >Perry It is pbem Perry, and you can be anything you wish, just send me your character, including history, personality, so on and so forth, with a subject of "Seduction: Character Submission" Hope to hear from you... Sanvi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brian Gracey | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:17:03 -0800 From: Roger Carbol Subject: IN> IN: The Hard Cover Version The last time I checked, messages had been exchanged on this list that would lead one to the conclusion that In Nomine would not be released in hardcover, or at least not any time soon. From the SJG Website (www.io.com/sjgames/ill/) > March 13, 1997: Reign of Steel > > The first copies of GURPS Reign of Steel have arrived. > They look great -- it's been a while since we had a new John > Zeleznik cover. They'll ship near the end of the month, > when the In Nomine hardback gets here. <<--- > -- Steve Jackson Hope that clears things up; Roger Carbol .. rog@col.ca .. not a member of the SJG family ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 19:08:14 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat At 11:15 AM 3/15/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >> "... It says ... celebRate!!!" >> >> ___________________ >> Sorry if its a repeat... but I had to share. Thanks for your >> indulgence. >> >Huh I don't get it am I the only one or is this just really stupid What is "celebrate" without the 'r'? Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:26:26 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Ponderables > You might want to give Grigori a higher chance to "breed true," though, > since I'm not sure there could be Children of the Grigori who were > celestial otherwise. They might be a special case... I had an interesting thought about the Grigori and Nephallim... What do we have established so far? The Grigori mated with humans, producing both the monstrous Nephallim and the human+ (read: human plus) Children of Grigori. Some official SJG guy (Moriah?) posted a theory on celestial-human interbreeding in which the offspring are born either as enhanced humans, or as 'chrysalids', a normal human body housing a developing celestial soul. Now it seems pretty clear (to me at least) the Nephallim weren't just human+'s, which leaves the other option that they were chrysalids. And in the IN playtest, they are treated as a fully-capable band of demons. So, it seems to me that the Nephallim could actually be Fallen Grigori, or at least the chrysalid stage of such. The whole mess happened pretty early is the Choir's history, as I understand it, so maybe no Grigori had Fallen before then, but the Nephallim wound up Falling even before they 'hatched'. Not only that, but it was the first time celestials had bred with humans, so no one on either side really knew what to make of the situation. So what does everyone else think of this theory? I personally think it has some potential... |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 01:39:22 -0800 From: Perry Lyons Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Joke...possible repeat Andrew Getting wrote: > What is "celebrate" without the 'r'? > > Kestrel Celebate=no sex Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:42:52 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV v. IN On 13 Mar 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > >Raven: > >THAT [the differences between the French and the SJ Games version] would be > >nice to see. If the SJG guys could be nice enough to post that article on > >teh IN page (hint hint, assuming the article exists), that would be > >oh-so-nice of them... > > Noted. However, it is a very low priority on our part since we're all > overloaded with the work that *has to* get done for this year's supplements. > If a fan did all the work... no problem. If there WAS an article about the differences, it seems to me that just posting it on the web page would be a pretty quick and easy thing to do, as web-things go... Even if you had to retype the whole thing into the computer, the hard part (actually /writing/ it) is done already. Of course, if there was no such article, then it would be a project, and I could understand it being such a low priority. I suppose the next question is, WAS there ever any pyramid article about it? If so, where can I find it? |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:37:50 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Steven Feldon wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Jordi's servitor attunements. . . um, > aren't attunements at all, really? All of his servitors have one > ability: anything you do in your Proper Animal Form, barring genuinely > celestial activity, doesn't disturb the Symphony. > > This is a cool ability, but it's not in pattern for the rest of the > Archangels. I was wondering if this was an oversight or whehter this > ability is really more keen than I think it is. My co-ref and I were > considering giving Servitors of Jordi some additional marginal > abilities, too, like the ability to upgrade the Vessel level of animal > vessels after creation, or something like that. . . . It is an INCREDIBLY keen power. Think of all the things that can happen with a celestial that can make noise in the Symphony. Being able to disguise that reliably, even if only under certain circumstances, is damn useful. Roles are like that, but Jordi's gift is /reliable/ no roll required! With a Role, there's still a risk of some noise getting through. An angel of Jordi this takes an animal vessel, and no noise. Period. To help put this in perspective, one of the noisiest things a celestial can do is, of course, injure or kill a human. Now a number of animals will attack humans if they feel threatened. It's very rare, and almost always they were provoked by the human, but it happens. A perfect is example is a human who bothers a bear cub. If the angel's been keeping an eye on this guy, and sees an opportunity like this, he can take a bear form and rip the guy apart. This would normally be heard like a foghorn, but Jordi's gift keeps the forest blessedly silent. :) Neat, huh? |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:51:01 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Bodhi wrote: > For years, My friends and I have often joked about the Demon Prince of > Procrastination. He's the one who keeps me from finishing my Thesis > on time, etc. Seems to me like he'd be a word-bound servant of Sloth. IMHO, we should have Princes, or at least major word-bound demons, for all 7 deadly sins. We've got Gluttony and Lust already, and Greed (Mammon) is upcoming. Sloth got eaten by Haagenti, but that's no reason to give the word to another demon, even if he's not a prince. That leaves Pride, Envy (possibly a servant of Malphas?), and Wrath. On the other side of the coin, maybe some Archangels/Words for the seven cardinal virtues. I know the seven deadly sins (never could forget them after seeing 'Seven' :), but the seven cardinal virtues are so far unkown to me. Anyone know 'em? In other news: 'Seven' is, IMHO, a perfect example of how to play a Habbalah. He thought he was doing God's work, and was doing a good job of punishment, and he didn't even NEED his resonance at the end... Happy thought, huh? |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:50:58 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Religion On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > Jordi and maybe Novalis? Dotti and I were discussing totems > just last night. We were debating whether "Bear", for instance, was an > etherial spirit in the Marches, or perhaps a (once)powerful word-bound > angel of Jordi. Or perhaps both. I can imagine Jordi adopting some of > the totems in an effort to protect them and their charges during the > Purges. I've had some thoughts about In Nomine is some other religious contexts. I don't think the theme of the War would work too well in a shamanistic game, but Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Zoroastrian themes could make for an interesting game. I could see Hindu gods beign written up as archangels and/or demon princes, depending on the god, or existing superiors could be assigned Hindu identities. Zoroastrianism was a major influence on Judaism; I think it's where they got their monotheism and dualism (God vs. Satan) from, whereas before they had worshipped a tribal god, and Satan was believed to be a member of the Host. The cosmology is kind of interesting: they believe in two gods (perhaps better described as elementa forces): a god of goodness and light names Ohrmazd, and a god of evil and darkness named ahriman, but the evil god is actually a /part/ of the good god, not just one of his creations. It's in some ways the classic dualistic religion for the mediterranean region. I also had a thought one time fo doing an IN game based in Japanese folklore and theology; probably Shinto for the most part. Maybe call it 'In Anime'. :) Honestly, though, it could be interesting. Maybe some anime (like 'Vampire Princess Miyu') could be used as style and story inspiration. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 01:06:41 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: IN> Celestial names On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > By the way, am I the only one who would like to have seen just > Hebrew names for angels, and no anachronistic modern names? At > least for Archangels. I can see an angel on Earth taking a > contemporary name as a nom de guerre. Keep in mind that a number of old Hebrew names became modern European names. I don't know how much they've been altered over time, but Michael and Gabriel are actual hebrew names. As I understand it, they got used by Christians (many of which were Jews), and their usage spread with Christianity. Which is why you get white-bread Protestants named Gabriel. For something I was writing a while back, involving angels in WW's WoD, I was looking through my Oxford Study Bible (translated from the original language by scholars, as I've mentioned before) trying to find an old Hebrew name, and found Rebecca. Sounds so normal, doesn't it? David and Daniel are also Hebrew names. We've had a president named Abraham, and the Biblical Abraham's wife was names Sarah. For the most part, these old names have simply stayed in use. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:21:42 -0500 From: Neil Goldman Subject: Re: IN> Religion > Zoroastrianism was a major influence on Judaism; I think it's where they > got their monotheism and dualism (God vs. Satan) from, whereas before they > had worshipped a tribal god, and Satan was believed to be a member of the > Host. The cosmology is kind of interesting: they believe in two gods > (perhaps better described as elementa forces): a god of goodness and > light names Ohrmazd, and a god of evil and darkness named ahriman, but the (snip) what the heck is this sure they were or tribal origin but they in no way got there monthisem from anyone else at least not according to the torah. How can you say that a jewish theme would be any different then a christian theme. The christian religion is just another form of the jewish religion in a way they both have the same exact old testiment. They just don't believe that jesus was the son of god and there is where things change. You could just explain it as angels debate whether jesus was really God's son. Maybe what you said here was one of the reason for the spanish inquisition and the holocaust. The crisitian population at large doesn't seem to relize that there is not all that big a difference and that all cristians desendents were jews. So hitler's law about killing all people with jewish desent world have killed all the cristian too. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:26:47 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... At 05:51 PM 3/15/97 -0800, Raven wrote: >On the other side of the coin, maybe some Archangels/Words for the seven >cardinal virtues. I know the seven deadly sins (never could forget them >after seeing 'Seven' :), but the seven cardinal virtues are so far unkown >to me. Anyone know 'em? I personally found "Seven" Too Nihilistic for my tastes, but to each their own. The seven cardinal Virtues: Courage Humility Honesty Diligence Charity Fidelity Purity Speaks "He was possessed of every art and grace except for that of making his own living" -Cold Comfort Farm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:40:07 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Religion At 05:21 AM 3/16/97 -0500, Neil Goldman wrote: Not to be contentious, but as someone who almost became a priest, I just love these discussions... :) >what the heck is this sure they were or tribal origin but they in no way >got there monthisem from anyone else at least not according to the >torah. Well, actually the Jews originally refered to god as "Elohim" which is often translated as "gods". They also had great reverence for "Sophia" the goddess of wisdom who was the only real rival to "YHVH". Remember that when you say "the Torah" you are refering to a LOT of books, not just the Talmud. The jews have folklores that are in the Torah that include all types of things. Also there are two Torah's, the Living Torah and the Written Torah (I believe). Judeism is a wonderfully living and organic religion. It allows for lots of diferent interpretations. A jew once said the jewish idea of heaven is to be able to argue the meaning of the torah with God. >How can you say that a jewish theme would be any different then a >christian theme. The christian religion is just another form of the >jewish religion in a way they both have the same exact old testiment. Do you really contend that there is not a different theme in the New Testiment than in the Old Testiment? In the OT God is a tribal god of wrath who smites the enemies and is only interested in his chosen people. In the NT God becomes a universal saviour and a turn the other cheek type guy. >They just don't believe that jesus was the son of god and there is where >things change. You could just explain it as angels debate whether jesus >was really God's son. Maybe what you said here was one of the reason for >the spanish inquisition and the holocaust. The crisitian population at >large doesn't seem to relize that there is not all that big a difference >and that all cristians desendents were jews. So hitler's law about >killing all people with jewish desent world have killed all the cristian >too. A) There is a large difference between Judism and Christianity. One celebrates the saviour in Jesus and the other is still waiting. One is a Race of People and the other is a conglomerate of adherants. They follow different taboos (meat on friday vs. the entire kosher laws). Early Christians BLAMED the Jews for the death of Jesus, their savior. The credo used to say "Delivered unto Pontius Pilate by the Perfidious Jews" when Vatican II came (I think that was the change) the Perfidie Iudicae was dropped. B) Few Christians these days are decended from Jews. In order to be decended from Jews, you must have a Jewish mother. The Jewish line is matrelinial. Jews are a RACE as well as a religion. Most modern christians are decended from Saxon, or African converts. John "He was possessed of every art and grace except for that of making his own living" -Cold Comfort Farm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:09:01 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Religion Just a few shekels: John Maurer writes: "Well, actually the Jews originally refered to god as "Elohim" True, enough. Which, of course, is enough to give some players pause when I tell them that "the elohim" are a class of angels, singular Elohite. Kinda like a choir of Jesus, singular Jesu. (pronounced jeh-ZOO, of course) :) John, again: "Remember that when you say "the Torah" you are refering to a LOT of books, not just the Talmud." Hm? Think you've got that backwards -- the Torah is the Pentateuch (the first five Old Testament books) where the Talmud is the centuries of commentary gathered by Jewish scholars. " In the OT God is a tribal god of wrath who smites the enemies and is only interested in his chosen people. In the NT God becomes a universal saviour and a turn the other cheek type guy. " Random IN Moment: You can see vestiges of this in the archangelic hierarchy: Gabriel and Michael strike me as OT angels, Marc and Novalis as NT ones. Now, is this change in worldview a real one (ie - God the Ineffeable has changed his Mind on these issues) or one in perception? yours, - -j ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:31:43 -0500 From: Neil Goldman Subject: Re: IN> Religion John Maurer wrote: > > At 05:21 AM 3/16/97 -0500, Neil Goldman wrote: > > Not to be contentious, but as someone who almost became a priest, I just > love these discussions... :) > > >what the heck is this sure they were or tribal origin but they in no way > >got there monthisem from anyone else at least not according to the > >torah. > > Well, actually the Jews originally refered to god as "Elohim" which is often > translated as "gods". They also had great reverence for "Sophia" the elohim is just one of the names of God just like Adonoi(sp?) is. He is stillc called that by many jews. > goddess of wisdom who was the only real rival to "YHVH". Remember that when > you say "the Torah" you are refering to a LOT of books, not just the Talmud. > The jews have folklores that are in the Torah that include all types of > things. Also there are two Torah's, the Living Torah and the Written Torah Yes I know that the torah is more than just the talmud. The jewish folk stories have to do with a virtue of judism. > (I believe). Judeism is a wonderfully living and organic religion. It > allows for lots of diferent interpretations. A jew once said the jewish > idea of heaven is to be able to argue the meaning of the torah with God. so couldn't have a christian have said that they are just as confused as to the meaning of the bible as jews are. > > >How can you say that a jewish theme would be any different then a > >christian theme. The christian religion is just another form of the > >jewish religion in a way they both have the same exact old testiment. > > Do you really contend that there is not a different theme in the New > Testiment than in the Old Testiment? In the OT God is a tribal god of wrath > who smites the enemies and is only interested in his chosen people. In the > NT God becomes a universal saviour and a turn the other cheek type guy. No this isn't true at all. True the jews are considered his chosen people but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about the rest of his human creations. When the torah talks about the coming of the messiah it doesn't say that only jews will go to heaven. Don't certain christians believe that if you are not christian you will go to hell? It talks about judgment day where everyone deeds will be put on a scale and he ones who are good will be sent to heaven and the others will be sent to hell. > > >They just don't believe that jesus was the son of god and there is where > >things change. You could just explain it as angels debate whether jesus > >was really God's son. Maybe what you said here was one of the reason for > >the spanish inquisition and the holocaust. The crisitian population at > >large doesn't seem to relize that there is not all that big a difference > >and that all cristians desendents were jews. So hitler's law about > >killing all people with jewish desent world have killed all the cristian > >too. > > A) There is a large difference between Judism and Christianity. One > celebrates the saviour in Jesus and the other is still waiting. One is a > Race of People and the other is a conglomerate of adherants. They follow > different taboos (meat on friday vs. the entire kosher laws). Early > Christians BLAMED the Jews for the death of Jesus, their savior. The credo > used to say "Delivered unto Pontius Pilate by the Perfidious Jews" when > Vatican II came (I think that was the change) the Perfidie Iudicae was dropped. Early christians what are you talking about they were still jews at that points so they were blaming members of there own religion. The taboos are the difference between a othedox jew and a reform jew. Most christians today would be considered reform jews in that they don't follow the laws as strickly as other jews and interpret them the same way. > > B) Few Christians these days are decended from Jews. In order to be > decended from Jews, you must have a Jewish mother. The Jewish line is > matrelinial. Jews are a RACE as well as a religion. Most modern christians > are decended from Saxon, or African converts. > > John > "He was possessed of every art and grace except for that of making his own > living" > -Cold Comfort Farm The chrsitian religion is faternal I know so thats just another interretation of the torah. Who is to say which religion is right? The truth of it probably is that some of the monthistic religions are right in some areas where as others are right in other respects. So again running a campagin religion has no affect. As long as its monthistic and has the same basic concepts. So who is the archangel of Judism? He should be just as well known as the others. On a last note the reason that the jewish religion is not a big as the other two is because while the christian and the muslums tried to convert as many people as they could and they were the ones who went to america and converted and conqueres. They were the ones that spread. whereas the jews just sat there and populated. Countless times the jewish religion has faced events which have crippled it and have survived through all of them. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 97 10:32:21 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Fae Lands THE MARCHES will most certainly deal with the creatures of myth and legend (those who've survived the Purge). I'm sure many of you will be happy to know that -- so far (no promises at this stage) -- some of the old Celtic pantheon is still around with maybe an Ethereal Tether intact to some magic rings in Northern Europe. Again, no promises -- we never know what will have to be cut in the end. But things that do get cut often make their way to Pyramid articles. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 97 10:32:26 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> More Fae >Robert Barrett: >IN NOMINE points out that a number of mythological creatures fled Uriel's >purge by applying to Beleth, Demon Princess of Nightmares, for sanctuary >on the Infernal side of the Marches. My idea is to link this bit of >canonical game background to the Faerie legends of the *teind*, the >tribute to Hell. IN NOMINE's in-character history provides a perfect >motivation for the *teind*: Beleth demands a hefty price in Essence from >those Faeries who sought refuge in her domain, and this price >(traditionally measured in faerie "souls," bodies, servitors) is the >*teind* itself. Cool plot point. Our Marches author is already detailing out the political machinations and debts between Beleth and those whom she protects. A Tithe sounds like a good thing to include. > [snip adventure seeds] If these ideas aren't part of THE MARCHES, you should write them up yourself as a Pyramid article. The writer's guidelines are on the web. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 97 10:32:17 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Secret Bible >Raven: >It also includes a number of essays about the history of the Bible, and some >parts that religious authorities of ages past had edited out. (Not >neccessarily to obscure the truth, but some texts were not considered as >important as others, and so were not made canon.) Umm... The Bible is a collection of 'books'. The collection was made by religious authorities. What they included is called 'canon'. What they did not include is not canon. There can be no such thing as "a part of the Bible not included in the Bible". If it was not included, it is not Bible. The Protestants excluded a few Old Testament books from their canon; but other than that, there are no 'edited out' parts (except for minor transcription errors). And the thousands of ancient texts which were never part of the Bible are not 'left-out parts of the Bible' -- they never were Bible to begin with. Sorry to rant on about my pet peeve of how there is/was a conspiracy to suppress 'secret' parts of the Bible. :) However, it does make a good adventure seed; in fact, it was used in "The Prophecy" -- a must see movie for all IN NOMINE fans. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:48:58 -0800 From: Perry Lyons Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... John Maurer wrote: Courage=Malakim Humility=Ofanim? MABEY Grigori? Honesty=Seraphim Diligence=Cherub Charity=Mercurian Fidelity=Kyriotates? Purity=Elohim Just some ideas, Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 12:51:05 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... At 03:48 PM 3/16/97 -0800, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >John Maurer wrote: > Courage=Malakim > Humility=Ofanim? MABEY Grigori? Ofanim aren't humble. > Honesty=Seraphim > Diligence=Cherub I'd have to say this is closer to the Ofanites and the Cherubs closer to Fidelity. > Charity=Mercurian > Fidelity=Kyriotates? And the Kyriotates are just alien. > Purity=Elohim Kestrel ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #73 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.