From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 21 22:06:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12723; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:05:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA31238 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:08:24 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:08:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199703220408.WAA31238@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #86 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 086 In this digest: Re: IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) IN> Re: Magic (long) Re: IN> Souls and 0 Forces Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions Re: IN> The Inquisition Re: IN> Souls and 0 Forces IN> The Nature of the Marches Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions IN> Translating INS and (c) IN> St. Brigit/d IN> Which Bible? Re: IN> Which Bible? IN> Thoughts on Damage Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! IN> Re: Celestial Diplomacy Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:28:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) At 8:04 PM -0600 3/20/97, Q (not from Star Trek) wrote: >On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: [...] >Hate to tell you this, (note: this may or may not be my personal opinion >about the certain religions, and is by no means a statement about >you, personally), but have you considered the possibility that the >summoned "angel" is simply a demon in disguise? Satan disguises himself >as an angel of light and all that.... > >I think it would fit in well in the IN world. > >Balseraph: "Sure, I'm an angel. What can I do you for?" Habbalah: "Of *course* I'm an angel! How DARE you question my DEVOTION to the FAITH?!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: IN> Re: Magic (long) On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Q (not from Star Trek) wrote: > The Etherial is a realm of thought, > imagination, where the human mind runs wild, free to conjure up whatever > it desires. In fact, it is my understanding that the Etherial Realm is > composed entirely of human thought. If humans can't think it, imagine it, > or dream it, it can't exist. Witness the mystery as the topic of this thread actually returns to what is said in the subject line. Oooooooooohhh..... While I really don't feel like getting into this thing about defining good/evil/neutral regarding the old gods (the guys in the debate seem to be handling it just fine), while reading the above description of the Ethereal realm, I just had a thought about humans and magic. If the Ethereal is made up entirely of what humans think and dream about, then that means that a human with sufficient mental skill should be able to control the nature, environment, and content of the Marches, at least locally. Then, what if he learned some way to bring what he does there into the corporeal realm? Think about it. He wants to get some money, so he creates a 'pocket realm' in the Marches though concentration and visualization that has him being rich, and then causes that pocket-realm to come towards the Corporeal, thus causing a situation in which he gets money. Of for a more dramatic effect, he creates a vision of someone on fire, tugs, and the targe spontaneously combusts. Or maybe he conjures a storm. I'm taking a class at my college called Transpersonal Psychology. It deals with humanity's various ways of trying to access of get a sense of something beyond personal experience (hence the name). This involves alot of mysticism. One of the theories we've been studying lately is that of subtle energies and gross manifestation. Essentially, there are multiple planes of reality, the physical being the most gross (opposite of subtle, not as in icky), and the spiritual, the part of us that really defines WHAT we are, not just who we are and what he have and do, is the most subtle. My teacher uses a model of 4 layers: spirit, astral (mental), etheric (emotional), and physical, each one directing the development of the next down. This is the metaphysical basis of hte whole 'mind over matter' concept; if you control the state of your astral body (your mind), you can affect the manifestation of your emotional and physical states, and your life in general. The Hindu Kundalini system uses 7 layers each with 7 sublayers, and other systems use different arrangements. In Nomine uses three. To use my teacher's model as a base, I would call the Celestial the spirit plane, the Ethereal a combination of the astral and etheric, and obviously, the Corporeal would be the physical. Now, celestials and soldiers use Songs, which are ways of directly altering the Symphony, the most basic and subtle level of reality, and the level from which all others spring from. This is why songs can do so much. It would also explain why spirits, being rooted in the Ethereal, cannot use celestial songs, at least not normally; the Celestial controls the manifestation of the Ethereal, not the other way around, so it's beyond their grasp. Human soldiers can normally only use Corporeal songs, because of where they are rooted. However, all true Songs are altering the Symphony itself, which is at the Celestial level, so it is at least /possible/, however difficult, for spirits and soldiers to learn other types of Songs. Now for magic. The Ethereal plane may not be as subtle as the Celestial, but it's still a step up from the Corporeal. And humans have an inherent ability to control the Ethereal; they do it evey time they dream. So, while a soldier learns true Symphonic Songs from his celestial patrons, a mage uses his own mind, no outside help needed, to learn how to control the Ethereal plane, and use that both to affect the Marches themselves, and the affect the manifestation of reality as it goes from Ethereal to Corporeal, thus working magic on the Corporeal plane. Obviously, this sort of magic is not as powerful as Songs, since they cannot affect the Symphony directly. However, this isn't always bad. Without the ability to alter the Symphony, there is nothing in the Symphony that can be detected when magic is used. That's right, /no false notes/. No celestially detectable noise. The poor widdle human is doing exactly what his mind was capable of from the start, and the big tough celestials can't hear him do it. Wah. Also, while magic may manifest Corporeally as a convenient coincidence (NO, I am NOT stealing this from MAGE, it is a real-world belief about magic), that isn't really possible in the Marches. Magical coincidences occur by directing how reality manifests from the level above it, but without being able to alter the Celestial, affecting the Marches has to be done directly. So, while magic in the Marches may not have the advantage of coincidence, it /does/ appear more spectacular. A mage can make reality in a dream realm even more fluid and malleable than normal, reshaping it to his whim. Fighting a mage in the Marches is not the best of ideas. Chapter 2: Let's Talk Enochian. :) Supposedly, Enochian is the language spoken by angels. Now this can't be literally true in IN, because Angelic is music-based, and only possible in it's true form while celestial. However, Enochian could be a human-useable language DERIVED from Angelic. According to what I've read, Enochian is a dangerous language. Even speaking is can affect reality, and looking at the entire alphabet without proper training can screw with your perceptions HARD. In Enochian magic, a mispronunciation can be fatal. Don't try it if you stutter. This could work in IN, possibly, as the only way for a human mage to alter the celestial plane. It would certainly be difficult, but it might work. Maybe if the check digit of a failed roll exceeds the level in the Enochian spell, you get a backlash of some sort, or it goes wild, or something really unpleasant. Now for summoning, I would say that it consists of sending out a 'signal flare' in the Marches, which might attract spirits of a certain type, or all of them. I'd say that you can't force a spirit to come, but some of them let slip some knowledge of how to contact them (a spell with a specific style of flare that they'll notice, for example), so that they can work with mages for whatever reasons they have. You can summon an angel or demon this way, but you'll msot likely get one of Blandine's or Beleth's. Once you get the spirit there, if you have a spell to bind itm you may be able to, and a banishing spell would be useful too. Using just Ethereal magic, though, will /not/ let you bind or banish a celestial. For that, you need either a Song (which requires you to be a soldier), or a binding or banishing spell in Enochian, mentioned below. As to rules: If the SJG guys decide to make an official magic system, I'll probably use it, and seeing as how this IS SJG after all, it will probably rock. Until then, the mechanics for Songs can probably be used for magic. They'd all be Ethereal, of course, so you should probably use Ethereal Forces for the roll. Or perhaps use them as skills, since the low number of Ethereal Forces on a human could still weaken them compared to a celestial, and those guys really need some humans who can stand up to them :). Perhaps use Intelligence + spell level in the Marches (use the power attribute because of the direct reality-warping), and Precision + spell level on Earth (use the control attribute because of the precise imprint you're putting on the Ethereal to get it to manifest). NO default; if you don't have it, you can't use it. Maybe make some magical skills, like a Perception-based one (with a high default) to detect the use of magic the way celestials detect Symphonic false notes. Use the same degree of disturbance and spent essence maodifiers for the perception roll, but modify range with Ethereal Forces instead of Celestial. As for the 'Songs' that can be used as spells, Corporeal and Ethereal definitely; maybe some Celestial. Keep in mind that these aren't /really/ songs, we're just using the same rules. So even a Celestial Song used as a spell isn't really a celestial song; the mage is using the same Ethereal based magic to get a similar effect. For some Celestial songs, the GM may rule that they require direct Symphonic control because of what they do; I don't have the book with me, so I can't comment on which ones. The GM can determine for himself whaty would work and what wouldn't. For costs, maybe make it 1 per level for a Corporeal Song used as a spell, 2 per level for an Ethereal, and 3 for a Celestial. Or not... Another thought on mechanics: Have an actual skill, Magic (Int, no Default use). Make the roll Eth. Forces + Magic skill + spell level. Or maybe make the Magic skill the upper limit in spell levels. Or both. This is all just a total brainstorm here. Anyone who might want to put this on a web page, DON'T. If you want to put it up, email me, and I'll hammer out the details with some friends and anyone on the list who has any useful comments. This is nowhere near a useable rules system (notice that almost every rule is preceded by 'maybe' or 'perhaps' or 'here's another idea'), and even the theory part looks only sort of coherent to me, and I wrote it! Anyone who has comments about this, feel free to post them. I'd like a little feedback about both the idea of how magic works and which of the rules to use. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:22:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Souls and 0 Forces If a Remnant still has a soul, what happens to it when the Remnant suffers physical death? Normally, when an angel's physical vessel dies, the angel appears in Heaven, suffering Trauma for some variable length of time. Do Remnants go into Trauma for geological epochs, or permanent Trauma (at least permanent so far...), or do they dissolve in soul as well as body, like an undead? Or do they come back as one of those sub-angelic little celestials? Or appear in the Marches? Or what? Curiously, Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:30:36 -0800 From: Clinton Wolf Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions *sigh* Sorry, I apparently copied the entry twice accidentally before pasting. Be sure to scroll through to the end because there's a P.S. I wouldn't want any of you to have the mercy of overlooking. (And one of these days I must figure out what's causing the weird linewrapping of my email at random times...) - -- Clint ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:31:52 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> The Inquisition On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, David.Evans wrote: > I thought that the Albigensians were a poor order of Lay Preachers, who > taught the masses without Papal authority and were persecuted for telling > the whole story opf Jesus. You know, stuff like "How hard it is for the > rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven", et cetera. The poor people > *loved* that stuff, knowing they were far more likely to meet their maker > than their Lords and Masters who ruled over them. Or perhaps I'm > thinking of another Order entirely; the bit above is paraphrased from > memory from Piers Anthony's novel "Tarot". An excellent IN read, IMHO! > I don't have my copy near to check, but I'm sure someone else will if > they're really interested enough to let me know. My mistake! Sorry. The big problem they had with the Albigensians was their belief that the church, priesthood, and the papacy were unnecessary, and should be done away with. They REALLY didn't like that. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:44:42 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Souls and 0 Forces On 21 Mar 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > A zombi made through Saminga's Attunement is a soulless creature. All > other sentient life forms have a soul, even if their Forces of a particular > type have gone to zero. There is a scrap of Celestial Force there, but it > doesn't register on the map. Don't forget that people can 'buy up' > characteristics... so, even if all Celestial Forces are practically gone, one > can still have a noticeable rating in Will and Perception. > > Basically, a Remnant still has a celestial soul though it has no > noticeable power to effect Things Celestial. If you didn't work for SJG, I'd say it was a matter of opinion... What the hell, I'll still say it. :) ANYway, it seems to me that when a celestial becomes a remnant, his celestial soul has been destroyed. Poof. Gone. Nice knowin' ya. My reason for saying this is that, Will and Perc. scores aside, remember that the guy has lost the ability to exist celestially at all, as well as all memories of what it's like to be celestial. Any time they're exposed to something celestial, it makes them uncomfortable, maybe like a 'phantom limb' effect. They don't exist celestially anymore, but the part of their being that connected to their celestial forces is still an open wound, and is subject to irritation. If SJG publishes something official that contradicts this, I'll probably use it. Until then, I think my take on it makes more sense than anything else I've seen on this list regarding it. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:57:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> The Nature of the Marches Are we sure the Marches are just the totality of human dreaming and imagination? Mightn't it be that the Marches have their own nature, but that they are just where our souls go when we dream, just as Heaven and Hell are where our souls go when we die? Even if the Marches are generated by dreaming, consider this: We know animals have souls and go to Heaven (Jordi's part of it). We know, as well as an EEG can prove, that many of them dream. Mightn't the Marches include the conglomerate dreams of ALL dreaming things, human and animal? So myth-creatures surviving in the Marches might have non-human resources to draw on, besides the human ones. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:52:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions At 12:04 PM -0800 3/21/97, Clinton Wolf wrote: >Greetings, >1) Shedim "have full knowledge of their hosts' thoughts, feelings, and > memories" (p. 151)... does this include Skills? What about songs > and attunements? I would say yes. It might have trouble with Basic Rites, though. >2) Since it never mentions otherwise in either the Shedim or Kyriotate > descriptions, I assume that they may possess celestial vessels as > well as "mortal" ones, with the only limitations (barring superior > attunements) being a living host (for Kyriotates) or a human-shaped > vessel (for Shedites)... I would use the Impudite restriction on "no more forces than you possess yourself," but probably let a Shedite try... And if a ridden angel wanders into a Tether and goes celestial... >in the latter case, does the celestial > personality remain in the dreamlike state a mortal would, thinking > the actions they take to be their own? Obviously the Will struggle > to force the average angel to do something despicable would be more > difficult than dominating Joe Human, but in the case of Shedim > serving Malphas (who automatically succeed in their rolls to > possess and control a victim) Ooooog.... I think they'd have to roll for an angel! Either that, or the angel would suddenly find himself in the Marches, and have a chance of getting help there! >this could lead to serious angelic > problems (then again, maybe Dominic's whole habit of antagonizing > and factionalizing the powers of Heaven could be due to... uhm, err, > I didn't say nothing! I know nothing!) Following this heretical > thread, would a possessed angel gain dissonance from evil acts > the Shedim caused him to perpetrate? Hmmm.... Yes. On the other hand, the dissonance, if it were realized to have been partly instigated by a Shedite, might be easier to get rid of. Maybe. If you can put right what you messed up while Under The Influence. >Would those possessed by a > Shedite of Malphas (that drives out the host mind entirely) be > subject to dissonance caused also? Then, I'd say no. They'd better angst about it some if they're playing in character, though! >3) Another question linked to the above... Kyriotates are specifically > limited to possessing hosts whose combined Celestial Forces are > equal to or less than the Kyrio's rating in same. Similarly, the > Song of Possession limits targets to those of equal or less CF > than the singer. Shedim apparently don't suffer from this limi- > tation, or was the mention of it inadvertantly left out? Shedim can only possess one person at a time, so it might have been left out for that reason. But it should probably be in effect: only a person who has the same number of Forces or less (and it's the total of all Forces, not just the Celestial ones) can be possessed. >4) What happens if a Kyriotate or Shedite's current host is hit with > a song of Possession? Option 1: all involved get kicked into the Marches. Option 2: the original mind is Marches (especially with a Kyrio), but the celestial is booted out and needs to find another host pronto. (This is assuming that they failed to resist the Song with their own Will.) >Or another Kyriotate or Shedite attempts to > assume control of the same host? Coooool.... Will vs. Will contest, I'd call it! >In the case of the non-Malphas > Shedites, do both the Shedite and the still present host > consciousness go to romp in the Marches, or does something more > convoluted occur? Maybe if the "riding" Shedite fails the Will roll, it and the host are in the Marches, but if it makes the Will roll and loses due to a lower check digit, it just gets booted out of the body? I don't even want to *think* about two Shedim trying to control the same body and do things that are "evil" -- if Shedite #1 is the only one to be corrupted, what does Shedite #2 have to do that's *worse*???? >5) VERY important: It implies in the book that a possessed host should > be considered a celestial vessel in game terms, so theoretically > a Kyriotate's wolf form throating a mortal would set off noise. How > does this work with Shedim, where the host consciousness is still > present and believes itself to be in control (assuming the host is > mortal)... Hm. Figure out what the mortal's Role is and use that, maybe? But for all actions, not just the ones that he does in the course of his normal, prepossessed, everday life. [...] The rest *is* more convoluted (you want to play a Shedite? One of those icky Fleshless? Or are you just working on baddies for the PCs to chase?), and I don't think I'm going to try to deal with it. >6) I'll leave y'all with a token Balseraph question to round things > off a bit. Balseraph who have the Ethereal discord of Paranoia are > more likely to generate dissonance/discord... I could see this for > Seraphim, but Balseraph are explicitly described in their entry as > being /the/ most paranoid of the demon bands... isn't dissonance > and discord supposed to happen from acting /against/ your nature? > How does this make sense? They have a harder time telling believable lies -- they're more likely to contradict themselves by word or deed. "Of course I'm your friend, that's why I'm holding this gun here -- YOU'RE OUT TO GET ME, AREN'T YOU??" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:14:17 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I would use the Impudite restriction on "no more forces than you > possess yourself," but probably let a Shedite try... And if a > ridden angel wanders into a Tether and goes celestial... One word: Ow. > Hmmm.... Yes. On the other hand, the dissonance, if it were > realized to have been partly instigated by a Shedite, might be > easier to get rid of. Maybe. If you can put right what you > messed up while Under The Influence. This seems really bad to me. Think about it: If a Shedite can possess an angel's vessel, and can then make the angel do things that cause him dissonance, then the Shedite can /force/ an angel to fall! All he'd need to do to add a new Balseraph to his Dark Lord's forces is to take over a Seraph's vessel and start casually lying. And for an Ofanite, he'd just need to sit around doing nothing for long enough. It would be more work to, say, pick enough fights to make a Mercurian fall, but there's too damn many Impudites around anyway... You can see the problem with this idea, right? I would rule that, since it's not the angel acting, and his mind is only being convinced by the demon's resonance that he's doing it, he gains no dissonance from anything the Shedite does while in control. Once he's been freed, he'll know what was up; both by sensing the Shedite as it departs (entering celestial form and the resulting noise at /point blank range/), and by the fact that, despite the lies he told, the time he wasted, or the fights he picked, he has gained no dissonance from it. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 97 19:57:40 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Translating INS and (c) I apologize in advance for how harsh this will sound, but legal protection of copyright must be stated without any ambiguity or it might be lost. >From: Marco Lambert >Subject was: IN> New/Old Demonprince (long) > >Hello to all, > >this time I have tried to convert one of the >original demonprinces from the french/german version >who is missing in the new IN version. > >It is Malthus the Demonprince of Diseases. > >I have tryed to convert as accurate as possible the >listed powers and all the other infos, but because the >systems are different I have to adjust a little bit. >I also had to invent the band attunements. > >Everything what is just a tranlation/conversion is >marked with an *. No copyright violations intended. Intentions are not germane to the law. Translating a copyrighted text *is* copyright violation. It is a violation of Croc's work and a violation of SJ Games license to the English version of Croc's work. No one has permission to translate (except under fair use exceptions, and a whole Demon Prince is *not* fair use) and publish, retransmit, copy, distribute, etc... (which is what putting it on the list is doing) any In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas product or its derivitive works. Do not do this again. >Everything else is my own work. For me it is okay >to put this character on any webpage you like. >I do not know what Croc thinks about this abuse >of his work. It is not permissible to put a translated INS/MV excerpt on anyone's webpage without permission. Anyone who has done so must remove it immediately. If you come up with your own idea for a Demon Prince of Disease, then that's fine. But you just can't publish someone else's version. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 97 19:57:33 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> St. Brigit/d >From: Corey >Hey all, since we're discussing the Pagan gods, what about those that were >syncrtised into Christianity, i.e. Brigid to Ste. Brigit, etc. I've heard this several times, but my Catholic Encyclopedia only lists Brigit of Finland who was a real, historical figure. Can anyone point me to references to a supposed legendary St. Brigid of Ireland? Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 97 19:57:36 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Which Bible? >From: "Joseph R. Watt" >Subject was: Re: IN> Re: Magic > Really? I must have missed the chapter on God. God created Michael, >that much is explicit. God is somewhere above the Archangels in the >Celestial Hierarchy, that is also explicit. God is good? Not entirely >clear, in my reading. Making an effort not to read in any external >sources, I don't see it. It might say it somewhere in the bible, though. >:) Are any of the published works of scripture considered 'official' >source material, or 'canon' for IN. :) The King James Version is the official Bible of IN. Mostly (OK, completely) because it's public domain and we don't have to pay a royalty. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:16:11 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Which Bible? On 21 Mar 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > > > Really? I must have missed the chapter on God. God created Michael, > >that much is explicit. God is somewhere above the Archangels in the > >Celestial Hierarchy, that is also explicit. God is good? Not entirely > >clear, in my reading. Making an effort not to read in any external > >sources, I don't see it. It might say it somewhere in the bible, though. > >:) Are any of the published works of scripture considered 'official' > >source material, or 'canon' for IN. :) > > The King James Version is the official Bible of IN. Mostly (OK, > completely) because it's public domain and we don't have to pay a royalty. > It may be the official Bible of IN, but I take it that you are not saying that in IN, everything in the King James is officially *true*. Am I mistaken? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 97 20:44:22 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Thoughts on Damage >Brian Emord: > I have noticed that there is an extraordinary connection between >pain and unconsciuosness. I have also noticed that IN gives >unconsciousness to those who take Eth hits. I remember seeing someone who >was asking about damage causing drawbacks to a hurt person, well what >about after each x% of corp dmg a person (not a celestial) takes they >take one (or more) mental hits... I think this is not unreasonable... >I was thinking about this when I was replying to the thought on the INQ >angel... hrmm, suddenly Eth Healing becomes marginally important... > >once again this is merely a suggestion and if those above (or below???) >have a problem with it, or if you don't like it... C'est la vie. Those of us above (aka, Superiors ) are listening. However, nothing against your proposal, but... it makes things more complicated. Sure, it may mirror reality more closely, but IN NOMINE is a cinematic system. If you want a detailed combat system, use GURPS. The IN --> GURPS conversion is up on the 'Net... for free. GMs are encouraged to add or drop mechanics to the degree of exactitude and reality that they wish (you already have Basic IN Combat; Advanced IN Combat; Basic GURPS Combat; and Advanced GURPS Combat), but, as long as I'm Line Editor... official game world canonical combat will not grow more detailed rules except for what's absolutely necessary. Peace, Moriah PS. Did I mention 'free'? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:53:48 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > > > > Hmmmm, I smell a silly plot coming on... Six Mecurians sucker a Seraph into > playing Diplomacy, thinking he'll be easy to beat if he can't lie, but > remember too late that it's hard for _them_ to lie as well... Actually, it wouldn't be much of a plan anyway. If someone in a game of diplomacy is *known* not to be able to lie, *that* is the guy that everyone is going to want to ally with. > > Is there an Angel of Recreation? I think maybe its me.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:48 -0800 From: Clinton Wolf Subject: IN> Re: Celestial Diplomacy Gregory Littmann wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hmmmm, I smell a silly plot coming on... Six Mecurians sucker a Seraph into > > playing Diplomacy, thinking he'll be easy to beat if he can't lie, but > > remember too late that it's hard for _them_ to lie as well... > > Actually, it wouldn't be much of a plan anyway. If someone in a game of > diplomacy is *known* not to be able to lie, *that* is the guy that > everyone is going to want to ally with. > Yeah, and watch the Seraph accept a point of Dissonance just so he can pull off the major stab that wins the game at the end. They are after all, the Soo-per Jeen-yusses of the Celestial field (or think they are) ;) I still say Diplomacy is all a Malphasian (Malphean?) plot... in the end, every player is a faction of one. Great game, though :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:55:46 -0800 From: Clinton Wolf Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions Elizabeth McCoy writes: > The rest *is* more convoluted (you want to play a Shedite? One of > those icky Fleshless? Or are you just working on baddies for the > PCs to chase?), Aww, they're not that icky... just ask my buddy Brian here... Brian, are Shedites icky? "Shedites? What are you tal- *urk* NO... SHE-DITES ARE CUTE... AND CUDDLY... TRUST... THE SHEDITES... NOW EXCUSE ME I MUST GO TAKE MILK MONEY FROM SCHOOLCHILDREN..." That Brian, what a card! See? Shedim aren't that bad... The angels and Lilim and Djinn, well, they're just jealous... [Why a Balseraph gets Dissonance for Paranoia...] > They have a harder time telling believable lies -- they're more likely > to contradict themselves by word or deed. "Of course I'm your friend, > that's why I'm holding this gun here -- YOU'RE OUT TO GET ME, AREN'T > YOU??" > Hadn't thought of that. Good point. :) Now for the next contestant... Raven wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > I would use the Impudite restriction on "no more forces than you > > possess yourself," but probably let a Shedite try... And if a > > ridden angel wanders into a Tether and goes celestial... > > One word: Ow. > Hm, there's actually no hard and fast rules for what happens to demons who try to go to hell or that would convert to Celestial form in a tether (after approaching it in a vessel), just that they "can't"... now in the first place, any Shedite with half a brain isn't going to let an angel walk into the tether and/or go celestial... remember the Shedite is in charge even though it lets the host think it is... in roleplaying terms if the Shedite took over an angelic PC, well, the angel might as well kick back and relax, listening to the Shedite RP his character, and only when the Shedite initiated a Will contest to force something evil would the host have any chance to resist. In other words, as the rules are printed now the Shedite calls the shots and decides when and where any struggle for control is going to take place... even if the host knows it's there it can't take any action to expel it, just try to hold onto a shred of free will in the face of its urgings. So unless the Shedite is the one who decides to walk into the tether and have the angel go Celestial, it's not going to happen, unless some system revision is later published that allows for hosts to make contests to actually take actions on their own rather than just trying to hang onto their morality until the Shedite goes away. [ On shedites causing angelic dissonance... ] > > You can see the problem with this idea, right? I would rule that, since > it's not the angel acting, and his mind is only being convinced by the > demon's resonance that he's doing it, he gains no dissonance from > anything the Shedite does while in control. Once he's been freed, he'll > know what was up; both by sensing the Shedite as it departs (entering > celestial form and the resulting noise at /point blank range/), and by > the fact that, despite the lies he told, the time he wasted, or the > fights he picked, he has gained no dissonance from it. I agree that it seems like if dissonance could be generated like this that the Demons might have won the War long ago... on the other hand, remember that Shedites can leave the host at will and assume celestial form with no essence cost whatsoever. K's and S's operate under special rules for perception of their celestial forms leaving a body (p. 53) which looks like a perception roll with a target number of the K's or S's celestial forces +2, so your average fleshless would only be perceived on a 5 or less even by the body it was leaving... Speaking of Forces, has anyone considered the point that the "Average Human" can't possibly be average? With 5 forces to distribute it means at least one category is going to have only 1 force allocated, meaning either a pair of 2's for the attributes governed (which is equal to a little kid!) or even worse that one of them is Low-Average (3) while the other is an abysmal 1, not very far above not being there at all (I guess you could equate it to an I.Q. of 40 or less, barely enough strength to hold your own weight, etc.). Skills might compensate for this, but the attribute deficit is still there and it doesn't seem to be sensible that the average person should have a serious deficiency in some of their characteristics. What is/could be the rationale behind dis? :) - -- Clint ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:04:17 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Rules Questions On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Clinton Wolf wrote: > > > I would use the Impudite restriction on "no more forces than you > > > possess yourself," but probably let a Shedite try... And if a > > > ridden angel wanders into a Tether and goes celestial... > > > > One word: Ow. > > > Hm, there's actually no hard and fast rules for what happens to demons > who > try to go to hell or that would convert to Celestial form in a tether True, but there's been suggestions on the list. And they all hurt. > (after > approaching it in a vessel), just that they "can't"... now in the > first place, > any Shedite with half a brain isn't going to let an angel walk into > the > tether and/or go celestial... remember the Shedite is in charge even > though > it lets the host think it is... The comments I was replying to seemed to suggest the possibility of the Shedite trying to possess an angel with (unknown to him) more forces than he has. The guy's idea was that the Shedite can enter, and depending on the cruelty of the GM, may /think/ he's in control, but isn't... So the angel heads to a tether and goes celestial. > I agree that it seems like if dissonance could be generated like this > that > the Demons might have won the War long ago... on the other hand, > remember > that Shedites can leave the host at will and assume celestial form > with > no essence cost whatsoever. K's and S's operate under special rules > for > perception of their celestial forms leaving a body (p. 53) which looks > like > a perception roll with a target number of the K's or S's celestial > forces > +2, so your average fleshless would only be perceived on a 5 or less > even > by the body it was leaving... If you're referring to the Symphonic disturbance for assuming celestial form, it's not celestial forces. It's TOTAL forces, as for any other angel. A +9 disturbance, unmodified for range, an average angel (Per. 6) will automatically sense the disturbance with a +3 to the check digit. And once he knows what to look for (both from the disturbance and the possible realization that he's suddenly in control again), he can roll Per. again, with +2 for the shedite leaving a host, and assume +3 for his celestial forces (this is where that comes in, /seeing/ the celestial form), this gives the angel an 11 or less to roll to see the bugger. That's a 35/36 chance, or a 97.2% chance, of success. He'll see him. Count on it. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #86 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.