From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Mar 29 01:36:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28308; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:35:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA02703 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:39:31 -0600 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:39:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199703290739.BAA02703@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #95 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, March 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 095 In this digest: IN> Test Message! Re: IN> Language: Heavenly/Demonic Re: IN>STATS FOR MORTALS... Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Elohim and Emote Re: IN> Voodoo Rules Cain's mom [was IN> Re: Alu-Fiends] Re: IN> Voodoo Rules IN>Re: Cain's mom IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #94 Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom IN> New Vessell on the list... IN> Character list Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:14:18 -0800 From: Steve Albany Subject: IN> Test Message! Test message, please ignore. - ---- Steve Albany Excell Data Corporation Phone: (206) 452-4503, Pager: (206) 978-1056 Fax: (206) 462-2460, Email: salbany@excell.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:10:24 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Language: Heavenly/Demonic On Mar 27, 5:39pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: IN> Language: Heavenly/Demonic > Okay, Demons can speak their twisted celestial tongue while in > vessels (p. 187, box), and while they can speak the original > angelic language, angels don't know the demonic tongue... > > Is this applicable for all demons? ("You grew up as an imp down > here, but you're gonna *learn* the Angelic!") Does this apply > to Redeemed? ("Well, I used to speak Demon, but it got scrubbed > out of my head..." or "Gonna wash that language right outa my > haid...") Heh. I asked the same question and I'm waiting on a reply. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:13:48 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN>STATS FOR MORTALS... > > Myself, I always peg my mortals at either 4 or 5 forces. 4 equals > average kinda guy. 5 equals really influential/dedicated/nifty > person. I have yet to introduce a "naturally occuring" force 6 > mortal. They are just too rare!!!... but I've sure monkeyed with the > stats to make some really nasty force 5 mortals! It's semi-canon that force/6 humans don't just happen. Either they have to be exposed to the divine/infernal and be recruited, they have to be striving for 'something more', or they have to have special genetics (descended from a Celestial, perhaps). A few examples might be someone who _truly_ believed in Dianetics and worked on improving themselves every day and in every way. Or the martial artist who was always training and trying to enhance his 'ki'. Or even an artist who would go beyond what everyone else accepted and was constantly trying to improve his performance and skills and means of expression. Very rare, it's true! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:18:24 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Mar 28, 11:26am, Shadowcat wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Roles > In an earlier post it was suggested that a Role of Faith Healer would not > totaly cover the noticability of using the songs of healing. I think I > have an idea for a Role that might, A massage therapist. As both a > practioner, and someone with constant back pain (Degenerative disk > disease), I can state that there is alot that can be done in a massage. I > am not saying that a mortal could do as much good as a celestial with the > song, but it wouldn't be as noticable if the celestial used it. Cases in > point. One thing about the 'faith healer' description that I should have pointed out is that _any_ use of Essence, unless specifically masked in some way (and the exceptions are few and far between) will cause a disturbance no matter what the Role used. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:21:51 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Elohim and Emote On Mar 28, 5:41pm, Grim88 wrote: > Subject: IN> Elohim and Emote > Can an Elohim take the Emote skill, or would this be dissonant. My player > wants this, but I'm not sure if its legal. Only if he alters the Symphony out of selfish desire. Emote is just a kind of misdirection which might be difficult for a Seraph to stomach, but even there it isn't really _lying_. If anything, an Elohim should be particularly good at the 'hide emotions' part of the Emote skill. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:24:43 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Voodoo Rules Bodhi wrote: > > Okay. I know that Vodun, or Voodoo, is in actuality an acceptable > religion, and shouldn't be dissected, translated, and/or corrupted > from a true understanding of its principles. I also know that > Hollywood has been responsible for many misconceptions about Vodun, > and that many practitioners of Vodun undergo a certain degree of > intolerance simply because we do not take the time to come to > understand Vodun in its proper light. > > However, certain aspects of Vodun are more "mercenary" than some other > religions, and are more concerned with "getting things Done!" than > with worship per se'. Thus, at least some of our misunderstandings > and misconceptions stem from a fundamental philosophical/theological > difference between the aims and goals of practitioners of other > religions, and the aims and goals of some practitioners of Vodun. > > Towards that end, I would like to present a system of Vodun, or > Voodoo, that has been simplified (shudder) and translated into In > Nomine terms. The system is presented as a creation of my own > devising, stemming from collected works on Vodun, and is NOT meant to > represent certain aspects of Vodun as strictly Diabolical in Nature. I'm always interested in Voodoo (Vodun, Voudon, whatever), not that I know a whole lot about it. I like a lot of what Bodhi says here, but I'll argue a few points... > It is not my intention to indicate that all Vodun practitioners are > secretly devil-worshippers, power-hungry, or evil. Nor is it my > intention to present certain of the voodoo spirits, or Loa, as > strictly Evil in the "real world". However, in GAME TERMS, cerain loa > fit so well into the Diabolical camp that it is easy to see how the > rest of the world can come to see them as Evil, instead of just > power-oriented. If there are any practitioners on this list who are > offended by my translations, please feel free to correct me, chastise > me, and try to bring the finished product "into line". [snip about Yves forming Voodoo in Africa] Worth noting that Voodoo has roots in both Christianity and native African religions - in fact, it's rather like the African people attempting to make sense of Christianity by putting in the same terms as the religions they know of (whoops, dangling participle). Since it was Catholicism that was converted in this way, we might expect that Laurence doesn't think much of Voodoo. > However, Satan had other plans. [snip about Satan and Hell 'colonizing' Voodoo due to the frustration and anger of slaves] Good concept. I'm unsure about the chronology, since I was under the impression that this 'split' between Petro and Rada loa was in place before the slave trade took full flight, but you've probably done more research than I have. > Eventually, all Voodoo ceremonies began to be tainted by the newfound > understanding that the Petro loa would do the hard work, and the Rada > loa were the original, more benevolent, more gentle loa. Certain > practitioners of Voodoo turned their back on the Rada loa completely, > and devoted all of their efforts to the Petro loa. Even the most > benevolent practitioners still find it difficult not to turn their > attention to the more powerful and attentive Petro loa when the need > arises. Thus, modern Voodoo, through Satan's influence, has developed > into a battleground over which Celestials and Diabolicals battle for > the attention of Voodoo practitioners. Unfortunately, however, the > Diabolical's willingness to perform acts of vengeance in exchange for > pledges of fidelity often results in even benevolent voodoo > practitioners becoming stained with Diabolical overtones. We talk a lot about the 'cold war' aspect of In Nomine. Voodoo could make it look like Saudi Arabia in terms of 'cold'. A situation where both Celestials and Diabolicals 'serve' the same person, and can't go 'on the attack' because they'll give the game away. > Voodoo Rituals > A voodoo priest (houngan) or priestess (mambo) will conduct the > invocation of the loa in one of two places. If they are attempting > to invoke a Rada loa, they will conduct the ceremony in a special > building (hounfort) which is consecrated and dedicated to benevolent > purposes. If they are attempting to invoke a Petro loa, they will > conduct the ceremony in an outside location, usually far away from > prying eyes. All priests and priestesses are also Sorcerers > (bokors), whether or not they choose to exercise their abilities. > White houngans and mambos will merely study Black magic in an attempt > to understand and combat evil in the world. They will not succumb to > the temptation and become an actual Bokor. However, many > practitioners of voodoo fall sway to the temptation to get favours > from the Petro loa, and thus they begin to practice black rituals, > and become full Bokors. From what I understand, the division between Houngan/Mambo and Bokor is a lot more pronounced. To become a Bokor is a definite choice, and is a 'potential' only insofar as evil is a potential in all people. Just being able to practice magic does not make one a Bokor. > The ritual involves the consecration of sacred food for the loa to > come and eat, as well as ritual patterns drawn in cornmeal. > Offerings of food, liquor, and animal sacrifice are made, in an > attempt to entice the loa into coming in answer to the ritual. > Different Loa seem to respond to different elements. Thus, each > archangel/demon prince has different voodoo ceremonies that center > around their invocation. There is much dancing, drumming, chanting, > and general ecstatic fervour. If enough of a fervour is met, then > the general subconscious outpouring of essence powers the ritual. > The ritual then calls the attention of the Celestial/Diabolical in > question, who will answer the call of the Voodoo practitioners. > > When the Loa arrives, they will possess the body of one of the > practitioners (the cheval, or "horse"). The possessed individual has > no knowledge of what is done, or said, while the Loa is in possession > of their body. It is through this possession that information is > passed to the voodoo practitioners. When a Loa mounts the Horse, > then the ritual has been completed. What the Loa chooses to do after > that moment is up to the persuasiveness of the Houngan, the quality > of the offerings, and the whim of the Loa!!! I'm curious as to the mechanism that you see being used here. Is it the actual Archangel/Prince themselves showing up, or a servant? Are they using the Song of Possession, or is always a Kyriotate/Shedim that shows up? > The Rada Loa > The Rada Loa are the original spirits worshipped in far away, long > ago Africa, before the corruption of Western religion, slavery, and > Satan's persuasive minions. The principle Rada Loa follow > [Multiple snips for brevity] > Legba, Guardian of the Gate (Archangel Yves) > Damballah (ALSO Archangel Yves) > Aida-Wedo, Wife of Damballah (Archangel Novalis) > Ogou, the Warrior (Archangel Michael) > Loco Atisou, the Guardian (Archangel David) > Ayizan, Patroness of the Marketplace (Archangel Marc) ____________________ > The Petro Loa > Not every loa is a benevolent helping spirit. Some of the spirits > are more interested in doing the really nasty deeds themselves, in > exchange for some serious payback. These spirits began to be > worshipped around the time that slavery introduced Voodoo to Western > culture and Western slavers. The need for vengeance against their > oppressors led some practitioners down the darker paths of Voodoo, > and now there is a whole family of Loa who answer to the calls of > those who wish to see something done RIGHT NOW!!! [same as last time] > Carrefour, the Guardian of the Crossroads (Demon Prince Kronos) > Erzulie, the Patroness of "Love" (Prince Andrealphus) > Baron Samedi, the Lord of the Dead (Prince Saminga) > Guede', the Gravedigger (Prince Kobal) > Dinclinsin, the Punisher (Prince Belial) Okay, I've got two problems here. First off, I'm a little useasy with the division you've made between Petro and Rada loa, particularly with the implication that some are 'good' and others 'evil'. The impression I've had is that all the loa are largely neutral bodies, with some inclination towards benevolence or 'violent emotion' in some cases. There are many cases in the 'literature' of Voodoo of Houngans summoning Samedi to perform 'good deeds', or Bokor summoning Ogou to strike at their enemies. It really seems to come down to the intent of the 'summoner' as to what aspect for the loa comes into play, and that seems problematic if the loa summoned is definitely good or evil. My second problem is with some of the correlations you've made for the loa. I get an impression from reading your outline (and I could be wrong so easily) that these Princes/Archangels are almost 'masquerading' as loa, slipping on the Damballah costume and mask and going down to impress the locals. I think that does some disservice to both Voodoo and the Celestials involved. Calling a celestial a 'loa' rather than an 'Archangel' is just terminology, and I think the celestials involved would take their roles pretty seriously (certainly the Archangels - the Princes might be more cynical). To have Yves as being two different loa is almost to have him lying to his followers. I'd personally cast Eli in the role of Damballah, with Yves as Legba. Of course, this could very likely be my misinterpretation of what you're getting at. Feel free to call me names. > The Baka > The Baka are really a series of Shedim who work for various Princes, > and who will do small errands for their masters when called upon. > They will possess a voodoo practitioner, and transform his body > (using the Celestial Song of Forms) into a parody mixture between man > and Beast. This Baka will then carry out the vengeance that has been > requested by the voodoo practitioner. They may appear as > leaopardmen, serpentmen, or any other bizarre combination of man and > beast. They are especially feared by voodoo practitioners, because > they will often choose the same Horse and possess them again and > again. The mortal Horse will then be taken out on nightly prowls, > night after night, often killing many enemies of the Bokor before > finally being killed themselves. The Loupe Garou', or werewolf, is a > common form chosen by the Baka. This is pretty neat, but might be a level of differentiation more than neccessary. More on that below. > Thus, the realm of voodoo can be seen through the eyes of In Nomine. > We can see how practitioners can summon only one type of Loa, or the > other, or a combination of the two. Both Yves and Kronos are vitally > important to Voodoo, as they represent the two primary guardians of > the rituals. When performing a ritual, one takes one's destiny or > fate into their own hands. Voodoo practitioners are generally > interested in achieving things, and getting things done. Thus, they > scurry quickly towards either their Fate or Destiny, depending upon > which path they choose to follow more than the other. > > However, it is important to note that the temptation to over-use and > abuse power is often too overwhelming for most poor mortals. Thus, > even the best practitioners, with the most noble hearts, have been > corrupted by the ease-of-access that the Petro Loa represent. When > they really need something to happen right away, even the most devout > and pure practitioners may come to call upon the Petro Loa for a > favour or two. Once they start down this path, they begin to further > the words of Diabolicals, and begin to further their own destruction, > as well!! This part I wholeheartedly agree with. What I'm curious on is how you see Voodoo being implemented in IN terms. Just a few thoughts of my own: Possession. Most likely, the Archangels/Princes do not personally possess the invoker. Instead, they send a Kyriotate/Shedim to attend to it. Each 'higher loa' would have a group of Kyr/Sheds dedicated to Voodoo, probably not Word-bound, but with some degree of distinction. Possibly these servitors would have one or two special attunements to manage the situation appropriately. Thus, the Baka (above) are just a 'special squad' of Shedim, or possibly Shedim who have the Song of Forms available. Good or Evil? This is the hard part, going by my arguments above. I'd suggest a certain uncomfortable level of cooperation between the 'higher loa', where they have to take responsibility for working with the servitors of the 'other side' upon occasion. For example, if a Bokor calls upon Ogou for help in murdering his enemies, Michael must (reluctantly) allow a Shedim to possess and assist the Bokor - that or allow one of his Kyriotates to do the dirty work. In all honesty, I don't like this idea, and any better ideas would be terrific. Just in passing, while I have no books on Voodoo available in the house right now, I might suggest that interested parties check out GURPS Voodoo, which I'm told has some very good stuff in it. Also try out the Tim Powers novel 'On Stranger Tides', or the Micheal Scott Rohan novel 'Chase the Morning'. Both decent and intelligent novels. One other thing: Bodhi, you are a complete dude. Very creative, very intelligent, and a good writer to boot. Stuff like this makes this mailing list terrific. Keep up the amazing work and feel free to ignore my nitpicking. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I told the priest, don't count on any second coming God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us No I don't wonder why, I wonder what He thought that'd get us ANDY PRIEBOY, "Tomorrow Wendy" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:34:43 -0600 (CST) From: Russ Collins Subject: Cain's mom [was IN> Re: Alu-Fiends] On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > According to Gustav's Dictionary of Angels (inc. the Fallen Ones), > there were offspring between Lilith and Adam (Cain, for one)... > ^^^^ My first reaction: NO WAY! I'm almost certain that Cain's mother is Eve, just like Abel. (Of course, I'm no biblical scholar, but it certainly puts a different spin on things if Cain and Abel aren't full brothers.) Russ Collins rgc@io.com "Do whatever steps you want if You have cleared them with the Pontiff Everybody say his own Kyrie Elison Doin' the Vatican Rag" -- Tom Lehrer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:50:39 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: Re: IN> Voodoo Rules > Okay, I've got two problems here. > > First off, I'm a little useasy with the division you've made between > Petro and Rada loa, particularly with the implication that some are > 'good' and others 'evil'. The impression I've had is that all the loa > are largely neutral bodies, with some inclination towards benevolence or > 'violent emotion' in some cases. You are absolutely correct. I guess my impression is that certain Loa are concerned with helping out in small ways, with you doing most of the work, while other Loa are concerned with doing major services for major fealty/sacrifice. The Petro loa are far more concerned with "gettin' stuff DONE", which I saw as falling more towards the diabolical's end. " Lettin' things be" is more celestial in nature. We know that Diabolicals try to alter the Symphony, while Celestials try to perceive the Symphony. Hence, my division. As to the chronology... yeah, I know I fudged it a bit. The petro Loa appeared later than the Rada loa, but some source seemed to indicate that the Petro Loa really came to prominence through times of strife, trials and tribulations. > My second problem is with some of the correlations you've made for the > loa. I get an impression from reading your outline (and I could be > wrong so easily) that these Princes/Archangels are almost 'masquerading' > as loa, slipping on the Damballah costume and mask and going down to > impress the locals. I think that does some disservice to both Voodoo > and the Celestials involved. Okay... They're not so much masquerading, as showing different facets of themselves. They're allowing a slightly different perception of themselves, and not bothering to correct it too much, simply because it serves their purposes. I guess I always thought that NO RELIGION had it correctly, but they'll happilly take the attention of any religious individual, so long as it furthers their Word without putting undue stress on the Symphony. Voodoo does that. It doesn't stress the Symphony, and with a little visitation now and then, they get their Word furthered. > Calling a celestial a 'loa' rather than an 'Archangel' is just > terminology, and I think the celestials involved would take their roles > pretty seriously (certainly the Archangels - the Princes might be more > cynical). To have Yves as being two different loa is almost to have him > lying to his followers. I'd personally cast Eli in the role of > Damballah, with Yves as Legba. > Of course, this could very likely be my misinterpretation of what > you're getting at. Feel free to call me names. Nope, you're right. I think the celestials probably do take their roles pretty seriously, and so do the princes. I've got a fairly NON-ANTHROPOMORPHIC vision of the Archangels. Oh, Sure, they act like "people" for the convenience of those below, but they're really a collection/conflomeration of powers, far outside the ken of mortal man. So, Yves IS Legba in a very real sense, and he is also Danballah... just different aspects of him. > What I'm curious on is how you see Voodoo being implemented in IN > terms. Just a few thoughts of my own: > > Possession. > Most likely, the Archangels/Princes do not personally possess the > invoker. Instead, they send a Kyriotate/Shedim to attend to it. Each > 'higher loa' would have a group of Kyr/Sheds dedicated to Voodoo, > probably not Word-bound, but with some degree of distinction. Possibly > these servitors would have one or two special attunements to manage the > situation appropriately. Thus, the Baka (above) are just a 'special > squad' of Shedim, or possibly Shedim who have the Song of Forms > available. Yup, that's how I saw it. I saw Kyriotates and Shedim playing out the roles and wishes of their Superiors, but translating them into Voodoo terminology. Not every Kyriotate is going to be "taught" the proper ways to communicate witht his culture... only special, "distinctive" Kyriotates are going to be given these tasks. Sorry... I re-read what I posted and I realize I didn't include that. You know, I always just assumed that mortals could never really get the FULL attention of Archangels/Princes, but that they send specially-instructed Kyriotates/Shedim to actually do the communicating for them. > Good or Evil? > This is the hard part, going by my arguments above. I'd suggest a > certain uncomfortable level of cooperation between the 'higher loa', > where they have to take responsibility for working with the servitors of > the 'other side' upon occasion. For example, if a Bokor calls upon Ogou > for help in murdering his enemies, Michael must (reluctantly) allow a > Shedim to possess and assist the Bokor - that or allow one of his > Kyriotates to do the dirty work. In all honesty, I don't like this > idea, and any better ideas would be terrific. Yeah... I tried to preface the discussion with acknowledgement that I'm uncomfortable relegating certain aspects to the EVIL side. I also recognize that the whole question of GOOD and EVIL is not really recognized through the Loa, but rather through one's actions there. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, you can talk to Loa, you can ask favours, but if the favours are extremely power-oriented or self-serving, you wind up doing "evil". Thus, Baron Samedi will gladly come and talk to you, even do you a couple of "non-evil" favours... but he's really hoping that you'll call him for something significant next time, and start your slide down the path. Just talking to Samedi shouldn't mean that you are Evil. It does mean that you are dealing with an individual who is very interested in affecting GREAT CHANGE in the world at large... and in In Nomine terms this translates as a Diabolical. I know that many people on this list enjoyed the previous arguments as to whether or not Diabolicals are truly EVIL, or are simply interested in affecting change, regardless of what the "original plan" (God's will, indeed!...) called for. So, of course, Samedi doesn't see himself as Evil per se'... he just sees himself as willing to do big things... in exchange for big payment! Quick Point: I mentioned that Bokor might not necessarily mean an individual who CHOOSES to do black magic...all Houngans are "potentially" Bokor, since they know the rules, regulations, and rituals. However, they choose not to deal with the Left Hand. > Just in passing, while I have no books on Voodoo available in the > house right now, I might suggest that interested parties check out GURPS > Voodoo, which I'm told has some very good stuff in it. Also try out the > Tim Powers novel 'On Stranger Tides', or the Micheal Scott Rohan novel > 'Chase the Morning'. Both decent and intelligent novels. On Stranger Tides I know... I really like his stuff!! I DIDN'T know that there was a GURPS suppliment. Doh!! And, Patrick... you should know by now that I appreciate all your comments and concerns. I'm not completely comfortable with this system, so keep the critique coming!! I was happy to see your name on the tag! (same to you, Ms. McCoy, if you're reading this) As to the more complimentary aspects of your post ("complete Dude?"...), I enjoy doing this sort of stuff. So long as people keep writing back and telling me that it is useful, I'll keep coming up with things to follow. Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com Nicholas Copernicus, Master Astronomer Stood up and Shouted, addressing the throng, "Abandon poor Ptolomy, Stand up and follow me, Heliocentrically, Ptolomy's Wrong!!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 21:04:45 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: IN>Re: Cain's mom >> According to Gustav's Dictionary of Angels (inc. the Fallen Ones), >> there were offspring between Lilith and Adam (Cain, for one)... >> ^^^^ >My first reaction: NO WAY! I'm almost certain that Cain's mother is Eve, >just like Abel. (Of course, I'm no biblical scholar, but it certainly puts >a different spin on things if Cain and Abel aren't full brothers.) Cain's mother is most assuredly Eve, and his father is Lucifer, oddly enough. Abel is the son of Adam & Eve...So, no Cain & Abel are not full brothers. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:47:38 -0600 (CST) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #94 >>Duke Of Daredevils- Always one to be different, Vagarog changed the >>title of his highest Distinction (hear Asmodeus' teeth grinding?). >>The vessels of these Demons are nearly impossible to take down. >>Unless the damage comes from a Song or Celestial Relic, they can be >>hurt, but never killed, by any Body hits taken! Think of Wile. E. >>Coyote.... slow 'im down, sure, but never stop him! > >Don't try to tell me you didn't, even for a second, think of calling >this distinction "Duke of Hazards". I plead the Fifth Amendment. Come now, don't you think Nybbas would appreciate something like that? > > I never heard of the "Alu-fiend." What's it like? > >OOPS....AD&D Reference... >(Hatcher scans the sky for any TSR lawyers) >In the Planescape Setting an Alu-Fiend is a child from a male human and >a female fiend. (i.e. what you get when a Lilim gets pregnant maybe??) >I apologize for the obscure reference...since I blend standard mysticism >and mythology with my Planescape games I sometimes forget what TSR has >come up with and what is based on mythology. > >Hatcher > Watch it there, Hatcher, Asmodeus's Secret Police are ROOKIES compared to some of the guys TSR has! - -Rogue, He Who Runs Red Lights ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:37:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Deathdog wrote: > >> According to Gustav's Dictionary of Angels (inc. the Fallen Ones), > >> there were offspring between Lilith and Adam (Cain, for one)... > >> ^^^^ > >My first reaction: NO WAY! I'm almost certain that Cain's mother is Eve, > >just like Abel. (Of course, I'm no biblical scholar, but it certainly puts > >a different spin on things if Cain and Abel aren't full brothers.) > > Cain's mother is most assuredly Eve, and his father is Lucifer, oddly > enough. Uhhhh....speaking of biblical scholars, exactly where did you come up with this? - -Q - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 22:08:36 -0800 (PST) From: James Foster Subject: Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom > > > > Cain's mother is most assuredly Eve, and his father is Lucifer, oddly > > enough. This is most decidedly fiction of some sort. It has no basis biblically speaking, nor talmudically. Perhaps the original author of this has read it in a comic book somewhere? James Foster Religious Studies Dept. University of Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 01:03:22 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom >> > Cain's mother is most assuredly Eve, and his father is Lucifer, oddly >> > enough. > >This is most decidedly fiction of some sort. It has no basis biblically >speaking, nor talmudically. Perhaps the original author of this has read >it in a comic book somewhere? > >James Foster >Religious Studies Dept. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >University of Oregon Hmmm...did *not* come up with this from a comic book. Is based on what the Bible says...What do you think the "fruit" was that Satan tempted Eve with? It was a *seed*, hence, sperm. Cain & Abel were in the womb at the same time, but of different fathers. Ask a physician. It happens sometimes. You can read this in any legit study of the Bible. Read some Greek and figure it out. Just because *you* never heard this does not make it wrong. Why the hell would I make a statement as such if it were not based in fact? That pisses me off... Another point: The Bible is *NOT* about everyone. It is a story about the geneology of Jesus. Basically, Adam & Eve are created on Earth as the originators of the line of Christ. They are most assuredly not the first man and woman. Lucifer tried to corrupt the line, and was successful, as Cain did murder Abel. Seth was then born, and from him we get the Jews. Geeze, read a book... >James Foster >Religious Studies Dept. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >University of Oregon I guess this legitimizes your critisism of the interpretation I present? I don't have a fancy title, or a degree in Religion (will some day), but does this mean I'm wrong? I challenge you to dispute what I said with a fact. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 01:03:46 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom >Uhhhh....speaking of biblical scholars, exactly where did you come up with >this? Ummm, the Bible...:) *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 18:00:22 +1100 From: jumpshot@onaustralia.com.au (Davies) Subject: IN> New Vessell on the list... Hi guys Just joined the list (somewhat prematurely as my In Nomine RPG is due very shortly) due to the great material I have seen and from what people have been saying about the game. I've been having heaps of trouble getting a copy of this game so far here in Australia. I had an advance order but the company "forgot" about it and they were all sold out before I even knew they were there... In Nomine will be my first new RPG since buying GURPS over ten years ago, but it looks great. Does anyone here know if there will be minitures produced to support the game? Sabbatt Jeremy Davies - ---------------------------------- "It's not easy having a good time. Even smiling makes my face ache". Frank N Furter - ---------------------------------- jumpshot@onaustralia.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:32:47 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: IN> Character list Well, I got on the Net tonight and discovered that the collection of characters has grown, substantially. It is really getting quite interesting, and is chock full of great ideas!!! Check it out! If you lost the URL, it is located at... http://www.io.com/~arcangel/net.character.book/In-Nomine/InNomineChar. html Hats off to the work put into this site! Thank you very much. Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:35:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN>Re: Cain's mom On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, Deathdog wrote: > >> > Cain's mother is most assuredly Eve, and his father is Lucifer, oddly > >> > enough. > > > >This is most decidedly fiction of some sort. It has no basis biblically > >speaking, nor talmudically. Perhaps the original author of this has read > >it in a comic book somewhere? > > > >James Foster > >Religious Studies Dept. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >University of Oregon > > Hmmm...did *not* come up with this from a comic book. > Is based on what the Bible says...What do you think the "fruit" was > that Satan tempted Eve with? It was a *seed*, hence, sperm. I really, really hate this. I will try to be patient before someone gets in over his or her head. I have gone over the first several chapters in Genesis and nowhere is the fruit referred to as a seed. It is called the fruit of the tree of (the) knowledge (of good and evil), and not other name is ever used for it. I would like to know where you receive your information. > Cain & Abel were in the womb at the same time, but of different > fathers. First of all, Cain and Abel were not twins. Cain was, in fact, Abels older brother, and Adam was, in fact, the father of both of them. I quote Genesis 4:1-2: "Now, the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.' And again, she gave birth to his brother Abel...." notice that the births are listed separately, and nowhere does it state that they were twins. Also, note that Cain is specifically mentioned in connection with Adam. Ask a physician. It happens sometimes. You can read this in > any legit study of the Bible. Read some Greek and figure it out. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the Greek says. > Just because *you* never heard this does not make it wrong. Unlike my friend who made the original observation, I have heard of this from several sources, most of them affiliated with various anti-Christian cults, such as the Ku Klux Klan, for instance (who also hold that the mark of Cain is dark skin) however, i see no reason hold their view in higher regard than that of biblical scholar. > Why the hell would I make a statement as such if it were not based > in fact? That pisses me off... There could be a great many reasons, perhaps you were simply misinformed. > Another point: The Bible is *NOT* about everyone. It is a story about > the geneology of Jesus. Basically, Adam & Eve are created on Earth as > the originators of the line of Christ. They are most assuredly not the > first > man and woman. Lucifer tried to corrupt the line, and was successful, as > Cain did murder Abel. Seth was then born, and from him we get the Jews. This is an interestingly limited view of the Bible you have, I would be interested in how you acquired it. > Geeze, read a book... I believe the question is not simply whether a person reads books, but rather which books a person spends his time in. You, for example, may hold certain books in high regard, as great literature. I, and others like me, however, may regard such as crap. There is a good chance you could widen your perception noticeably by taking your own advice. - -Q - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #95 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.