From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 14 12:24:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26889; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:45:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04165 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:03:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:03:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199704141603.LAA04165@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #116 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 116 In this digest: IN> Dreamscapes IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Why conceal? IN> Fairly new sourcebook IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #115 Re: IN> Dreamscapes Re: IN> Why conceal? IN> Christian Patron IN> Other Campaigns (was More Heresy) IN> Plot Seed - Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition IN> House Rules IN> A very naughty rules rort IN> Re: Celestial Population Re: IN> Lycanthropes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:52:05 -0400 From: Matthias Mueller Subject: IN> Dreamscapes Hi everybody, I'm not sure my first message reached the list, so here's my question again : The following problem turned up while I created a Servitor of Beleth. It looks like entering a humans dreamscape via Dreamwalking or Corporeal Song of Dreams lets you stay just a couple of minutes in your targets dream. So how can an Impudite of Beleth stay in a dream for a hour or more, to benefit from his its band attunement ? First I thought that every demon could enter dreamscapes, but couldn't affect anything inside. Now, having looked closer at that part, it seems they can only observe dreamscapes from outside when not using song or attunement. Who can help me there ? -How many ways are there to enter somebodys dream ? -How long is the maximum time you could stay ? Thanks ! Matioki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:47:16 -0600 From: Andrew Thompson Subject: IN> Why conceal? I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could choose between the two sides of the conflict. I realize that if the celestials did not have to conceal their powers somewhat the game may become a superheroes vs. supervillians type game. I am just looking for a logical reason to tell my friends when they roleplay their characters. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 12:41:56 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? At 11:47 AM 4/13/97 -0600, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want >the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact >that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the >monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could >choose between the two sides of the conflict. > >I realize that if the celestials did not have to conceal their powers >somewhat the game may become a superheroes vs. supervillians type game. >I am just looking for a logical reason to tell my friends when they >roleplay their characters. It's the same reason God let Satan rebel. Nobody but the big G knows. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:45:22 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? Andrew Thompson wrote: > > I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want > the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact > that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the > monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could > choose between the two sides of the conflict. > Actually, knowledge would destroy faith! Basic religious theory here. Faith is not compatible with knowledge or proof concerning the 'thing' you have faith in, since 'faith' is an act of belief and trust _despite_ lack of proof. If you _know_ that God exists, you can't have 'faith' in God. An example: if a Christian (with faith) does a good deed (helps old lady across the road), then they get holy bonus points because they acted without encouragement or self-interest. If God is revealed to truly exist, then Joe Asshole (a former athiest and all-round bad guy) starts hustling pensioners across intersections all day - not because he's good, but becasue he wants enough bonus points to go up a level. Anyway, that's why God's agents would operate in secret. As for the Bad Guys... if you _knew_ you'd go to Hell for doing bad things, you probably wouldn't do them, would you? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I have found some kind of temporary sanity In this shit, blood and come on my hands I've come round full circle. TOOL, "Prison Sex" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:04:40 +2 From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? > >I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want > >the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact > >that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the > >monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could > >choose between the two sides of the conflict. Maybe there wouldn't be any conflict if God truly were almighty. And not all mortals want to put their souls in hands of a defective god... - ------------------- Lynoure ---------------------- - -----"Just like the twilight I come to you."------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:35:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Andrew Thompson wrote: > I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want > the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact > that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the > monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could > choose between the two sides of the conflict. There are two basic reasons that I see: 1) The Pragmatic Reason: Although angels are powerful, they are few in number (compared to humanity). They have important jobs to do, but if humans knew that angels existed, they would be constantly harassed for healings, blessings, enlightenment, etc. Angels can do their job most effectively if their existence is a secret. 2) The Philosophical Reason: It boils down to Free Will and Faith. Angels (and presumably God as well) are trying to instill humanity with a particular mental state, call it Grace, Faith, Goodness or whatever. This state is strongest when human beings choose do good of their own accord. The more "prompting" they get, the less real Grace they have. It is a very fine line that angels walk; they must give enough information so that humans know what God wants, but not enough to take away humanity's ability to make a relatively unbiased decision. Given that angels don't really understand God either, this is an extremely difficult task. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:23:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Durall Subject: IN> Fairly new sourcebook I just picked up a copy of "Angels A to Z," by James R. Lewis & Evelyn Dorothy Oliver, and it seems like a fairly useful supplementary sourcebook to Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels." Approximately the same size, it's a bit less informative than the DoA, but has a lot more breadth outside of traditional Biblical and Jewish sources, including sections on angels in media, and some cross-cultural angels such as valkyries, hafaza and deva. It's not quite the dictionary, being more a reference work, and fairly well-indexed, to boot. Cost is $17.95, almost 500 pages, published by Visible Ink Press (not a Christian publisher, if that's a concern). ISBN 0-7876-0652-9. _________ Jason Durall triton@seanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:09:37 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #115 Here's my one last post- I stopped playing Magic long ago when I realized how much money it was sucking up, and what it was doing to RPGs. A few years ago, if you went to GenCon, you'd see little groups of people sitting in corners, or around tables, role-playing!!! It was a role-playiong convention! I went last year, and where these groups used to be, there was Magic. Magic. Magic. More Magic. If WotC can figure out some way to do to RPGs what they did with Magic, I will be amazed. More likely, D&D will rely more and more on cards and less and less on people. I'm just glad SJG is still out there. So Moriah, when WoTSRc calls in a few years, make sure Steve tells them where they can go? >just a side thought that occured to me. Although the total population of >Celestials is one thing, the number of them in the Corporeal at any time is >another. I would suspect that the percentage of demons on Earth against >their total is greater then the percentage of angels. They have more reason >to be away from their Superiors . > >Another side thought. The ratio of angels of each AA who might be on Earth? >I would guess Eli having the most, because they are following their >superiors lead. Any other thoughts? > >Thanking you for your indulgence. > >Yours > Peter. > I'd say you're right about there being more Corporeal Demons than Angels. Like Tariel said, the Angels don't want to be there. The Demons jump at the chance. it's kind of like a *really* big game of cops and robbers... the criminals outnumber the police, even if they're usually a bit weaker. > Phasekiel, > Elohim of Destiny, > the Angel of Heresy. I'm sure that you and Dominic get along just famously. - -Rogue, who thinks that SJG should announce that they are buying TSR *and* WotC. And White Wolf, too, just for fun. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:30:52 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Dreamscapes On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:52:05 -0400 Matthias Mueller wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I'm not sure my first message reached the list, so here's my question again > : > > The following problem turned up while I created a Servitor of Beleth. It > looks like entering > a humans dreamscape via Dreamwalking or Corporeal Song of Dreams lets you > stay just > a couple of minutes in your targets dream. So how can an Impudite of Beleth > stay in a dream > for a hour or more, to benefit from his its band attunement ? > First I thought that every demon could enter dreamscapes, but couldn't > affect anything inside. > Now, having looked closer at that part, it seems they can only observe > dreamscapes from outside > when not using song or attunement. > > Who can help me there ? > -How many ways are there to enter somebodys dream ? > -How long is the maximum time you could stay ? > > Thanks ! > > Matioki > > As a Game Master who prefers to fly by the seat of his pants in terms of rules (funny, I seem to know most of them anyway...) this is what I would pull: Just change the rules! Change the CD to hours, or half-hours, for the Dream Walking Attunement. Talk to your GM, have her (or him) change it. It does seem silly not to have it longer... On the other hand, if the GM rules as such, you may have to use your attunement of Dream Walking every few minutes, just before having to leave the Dream. But this definitely seems really excessive if you need to stay there for HOURS... Change the rules, they are merely guidelines anyway... Perry M. Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:30:52 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? On Sun 13, Apr 1997, Paul F. Strack wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Andrew Thompson wrote: > > I am a GM setting up a campaign and I was wondering why God would want > > the celestial conflict n Earth to be hidden from the mortals. The fact > > that there are ANGELS and DEMONS would do much to promote faith in the > > monkeys and there would still be free-will in that the monkeys could > > choose between the two sides of the conflict. > > There are two basic reasons that I see: > > 1) The Pragmatic Reason: Although angels are powerful, they are few in > number (compared to humanity). They have important jobs to do, but if > humans knew that angels existed, they would be constantly harassed for > healings, blessings, enlightenment, etc. Angels can do their job most > effectively if their existence is a secret. > > 2) The Philosophical Reason: It boils down to Free Will and Faith. > Angels (and presumably God as well) are trying to instill humanity with a > particular mental state, call it Grace, Faith, Goodness or whatever. This > state is strongest when human beings choose do good of their own accord. > The more "prompting" they get, the less real Grace they have. It is a > very fine line that angels walk; they must give enough information so that > humans know what God wants, but not enough to take away humanity's ability > to make a relatively unbiased decision. Given that angels don't really > understand God either, this is an extremely difficult task. > > Paul > Ah HA!!! Now, would it be that the mundanes themselves have enough doubt that it is not necessary to maintain even the semblence of a masquerade, or would it be that there are celestials (most likely Demons) who work to ensure that the true existance of Heaven and Hell remains a secret. In my campaign there are MIBs, servitor of Dominic and Asmodeus who serve to control the flow of knowledge, at the source, of course. They are the ones who ensure the existance of Undead remains secret so that Earth's governments do not try to tap this potential source of power. Both sides try to control knowledge of what is to aid their side in The War, but often both MIBs of Asmodeus and Dominic work together to hide such matters. Perry M. Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:53:32 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Christian Patron Dear List I was rereading the piece on the In Nomine Collection Website (www.nocturne.org/inc) about the history of Khalid, the Archangel of Faith, when I was struck with a thought. For it's first 700 odd years Christianity's Patron Celestial Spirit was the Angel of Purity who was supported by the Angels of Faith and the Sword. Then in an fairly short space of time that changed. Faith and Purity were lost and the Christianity's Patron became the Angel of the Sword. It is interesting to consider this and how it might be reflected in changes in the outlook of the Christian Churches from 700 AD to 1000 AD. Thanking you for your indulgence Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:40:30 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Other Campaigns (was More Heresy) Dear Andrew and List ain't life grand I may never have to buy another game :) . Acutally one variant that I thinkn IN screams out for is the Historical Campaign, with settings in other historical periods. In fact to go the whole hog you can have a group of players who are assigned to work together could only be mobilised every 20 to 50 years when needed. I can see the players leaving families of servitors behind to make sure they have support when they get sent back to Earth the next time. Start them off about 800 AD and bring them up through history 50 years at a time. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:49:17 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Plot Seed - Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Dear List Everyone goes wrong sometime and if your players get too use to just living with a few points of dissonance because they can get rid of it later then you might like to pull this one on them. A Major Servitor of Dominic comes to the characters' town and advises them that he has been sent to hold a hearing into reports of dissonant activities in the area. I would use Torquemada as previously posted by Marco Lambert and available on Elizabeth McCoy's website at www.io.com/~arcangel/net.character.book/in-nomine mainly because my players didn't like him. If you think that the characters might try to physically resist give him a retinue of Malakim. In fact you can make the Inquisition team as big as you like, but the bigger the team the shorter the situation will probably last. This will work best if you can build it up. The Inquisitor is just as able to use gentle methods as harsh ones, but will become and more harsh as his enquiry continues. The Inquisitor will want to talk to everyone, and he means _everyone_, no matter how much difficulty this causes the characters. He will want to know the exact details of how any dissonance was gained and will be happy to accuse others of misdeeds to get them into the proceedings. We are talking a Major Angel of Judgement who thinks that nothing is more important than getting to the Truth, one he recognises as such, and meting out punishment to the guilty. As it goes on move all the character's sources of support away from them. Firstly none of their Superiors will answer them, or will make very curt "Nothing I can do" responses. Senechals will make it clear that extended visits are not appreciated, any other associates the characters have will make themselves scarce too. Perhaps one good thing is that demons will also stay clear of the characters, they don't want the Inquisitor's attention either. Make sure that the characters know this is a favoured servitor of Dominic. Be cruel and nasty, be uncaring and arbitrary. Play it up for all that you can, put the fear of a final dissolution into the characters. Bribery, lying, torture, false witnesses and false accusations are all viable tactics for the Inquisitor. This is a no holds barred, full contact and no protective equipment tussel, with the Inquisitor as both opposing team and referee. The Climax should have all the characters called before the Inquisitor to see a squad of Malakim fully armed and prepared, perhaps with "instruments of correction" or shackles, chains and hot rivets. Have the Inquisitor read the "charges" against each character and ask if they have any final comments before sentence is passed. When things look bleakest Dominic appears and commands all his servitors to halt. He will gently reprimand the Inquistor's assistants telling them that they do not do their duty simply by following orders. He will make a short apology to the characters and thank them for their cooperation. Finally he will turn to the Inquisitor and reveal that the whole thing was a test to see if the Inquisitor had regained his impartiallity and that he had most obviously failed, as the accused had done nothing which required the attention of the Angels of Judgement. Should any of the characters wish to question Dominic further he will simply remind them that "God's Justice is perfect, but his Servitors are not always so". I can hear his departing line being something like "Go and Sin no more". Of course the whole thing was a set up from the start. Which is why the other ArchAngels let it go. The Inquisitor, while a good and loyal Servitor of Judgement, and one who did difficult and important work in ages past, had overtime gained much Discord. This resulted in him becoming more interested in punishing those bought before him rather than determining what a reasonable punishment was, or if any punishment was actually required. Dominic had kept him in Heaven and allowed him duties that would give him an opportunity to reduce his Discord. While Dominic was quite capable of seeing how much Discord the Inquisitor had to get rid of he couldn't see if the Inquisitor could resist the pressures of his Discord and fulfill his duties properly. Only a live fire, in the field test could do that, and the characters were just the lucky dupes whose number came up (or maybe there was some other reason for their selection). Why didn't (and doesn't) Dominic just remove the Inquisitor's Discord. Well he could, but he wanted to give the Inquisitor the chance to do something about it himself and he wanted to see if the style of Judgement that the Inquisitor represents is still valid. As a result of the Inquisitor's failure he is likely to be disolved and with his passing perhaps the Word of Judgement will be a little less oppressive than it might have been felt to have been in the past. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:55:02 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> House Rules Dear List just had a character creation and campaign question and answer session for my In Nomine campaign and thought I'd report two house rules we have instigated. First is not too radical. Body hits formula changed to vessel level * (Strength + Corp Forces.). This brings the body hits of everyone down a bit, but still makes 40 achievable and one PC ended up with 68. Second - No Essence spent on a failed Song Roll. This is a bit of a change. A couple of reasons for it. First there was a thought that characters should just buy all the Songs they really wanted to use at rank 5 or 6 to make sure they succeded and that they didn't spend all their essence for nothing. This means no one would have a lot of Songs or they wouldn't have anything else. Second I didn't want characters spending all their Essence and getting no result. So now on a Song Roll failure you still generate the base disruption to the Symphony, but you don't spend any Essence. A variant of this which I just thought of is that a failure expends 1 Essence, rather than the full amount. Other than that nothing major to report, except that it all went a lot better than I thought it would. On first look I thought that the system just didn't give you enough to make a viable character with, but no one had to stretch to far and all the players were reasonably happy with the way their conceptions came over to game stats. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:52:05 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> A very naughty rules rort Dear List One of my Players suggested this and was chastised appropriately for it. If you know one of the rare Malakim of Sunya, the Archangel of Compassion, who has gained the distinction Master of Suffering you could get them to take on all of your dissonance and being a Malakim they would never have a chance of Falling. In fact you should take very good care of your unusual friend, probably keeping him in a cellar chained up so he can't get into any trouble. Then you can feel righteous in going back out and doing whatever it was that got you the dissonance, because it will give your cellar dwelling friend more opportunity to show his compassion. More over if two such rare Angels work together they could swap their dissonance back and forth and it would be halved each time. This works better and better the more Malakim Masters of Suffering you have in your dissonance dispersal bucket brigade. It prompted me to make the comment, which became a house guideline if not a rule, that "angels are not rules lawyers". Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. At 05:23 PM 13/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >I just picked up a copy of "Angels A to Z," by James R. Lewis & Evelyn >Dorothy Oliver, and it seems like a fairly useful supplementary sourcebook >to Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels." > >Approximately the same size, it's a bit less informative than the DoA, but >has a lot more breadth outside of traditional Biblical and Jewish sources, >including sections on angels in media, and some cross-cultural angels such >as valkyries, hafaza and deva. It's not quite the dictionary, being more a >reference work, and fairly well-indexed, to boot. > >Cost is $17.95, almost 500 pages, published by Visible Ink Press (not a >Christian publisher, if that's a concern). ISBN 0-7876-0652-9. > >_________ >Jason Durall >triton@seanet.com > > > Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:02:46 -0400 (EDT) From: William Reed Subject: IN> Re: Celestial Population Peter Frederick . Another side thought. The ratio of angels of each AA who might be on Earth? I would guess Eli having the most, because they are following their superiors lead. Any other thoughts? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. ***** My thoughts are this: I believe that the section in the book about Hell implies that Lucifer created a larger number of demons than there were angels, but that by doing so, he could not make them as strong. I also remember getting the impression that few of them were as strong as angels, and that those few were probably the only ones that would be strong enough to be PCs. This is not to say that they would be the only ones encountered by angels on Earth, but that the weaker ones would not be a real challenge. So, as I play it, there can be encounters with lesser demons, but htey are fairly easy to defeat. I know this probably doesn't answer the original question, but as I didn't catch that, I shall not even attempt to do so. :) Bill WM Reed wmreed@freenet.columbus.oh.us "You may be big, but I'm small!" - Daffy Duck to the Shropshire Slasher ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:18:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Lycanthropes On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Perry Lloyd wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:39:14 -0400 (EDT) > Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > > > I'd say servitor of Jordi fulfilling a role, for the most part. Actually, > > > I was thinking more of the WoD version of the werewolf, animals that take > > > human form, not the other way around. > > > > Actually, WoD werewolves include both. However, as animals don't have > > morality, I don't like the idea of transforming animals taking the stage > > in the In Nomine universe. Angels that can shapeshift would be better. > > Actually, I believe in Werewolf:The Apocalypase werewolves, both > Lupus and Homid, have morality. Sure, but they are not really transformed animals. They have a bit of wolf, a bit of human, and a lot of whacky spirit stuff. > > If an animal were to have a high enough Ethereal Forces, with > a high enough intelligence, could it not also have a sense of > morality. Becoming self-aware must do SOMETHING for it... Sure, if it had a high enough intelligence, but would you still count it as an animal if it not only *looked* human, but brought its instincts under the rule of moral laws? Sounds more like a hairy-guy to me. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #116 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.