From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 16 10:07:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17902; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:41:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14448 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:17:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:17:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199704161417.JAA14448@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #120 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 120 In this digest: Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 IN> Stella Inquisitorius RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) RE: IN> Kyriotates of Michael with multiple vessels. (was: IN> Music, Music, and Noise Re: IN> House Rules Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan IN> Calabite of War Re: IN> Mammon, Prince of Greed Re: IN> Mammon, Prince of Greed IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #119 RE: IN> Kyriotates of Michael with multiple vessels. (was: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Re: IN> Songs. Re: IN> Songs. RE: IN> Vessel costs Re: IN> House Rules Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:53:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 At 10:45 PM -0500 4/14/97, tom timberlake wrote: >thank the Archangel of Sanity-Preservation! another Know the Enemy list. >did i just come late to the dance, or are you planning to do a KtE >series from the heavenly viewpoints? Once I've worked my way through the demonic PoV, yeah, probably. (It started when we thought of what Lust's anti-angel PR would be like...) Or, if I get a really Good Idea, I'll just skip ahead and do that one. >Clean wings, clear skies, and may Dominic never suspect you of anything >"other than good" Tom At 12:42 PM -0500 4/15/97, tom timberlake wrote: >Hollis McCray wrote: >> I wish she would! I'm playing an angel's campiagn(being me, I serously mess >> with the concepts of good and evil) and I could use the help. > >shall the Angel of List-Opinion drop a more subtle hint on Liz's >head--say, maybe, a ton of bricks??? That's *Archangel *BETH**, you lot... Only fencing teachers get to call me "Liz." >i'm sure she can >manage this in the 1.2 spare seconds she has between the other events >that make up her life ;-} ;-} Gak! Well, tell me which Superior, and I'll see if I can come up with some capsule summeries... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Raoul Duke Subject: IN> Stella Inquisitorius On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Russ Collins wrote: > "I vaguely recall reading somewhere that there was a spin-off game (or > perhaps just a supplement?) in France that does take the War into the > far future, even past the Second Coming. Does anybody here know > anything about such a game?" > > There's "Rapture: The Second Coming," by Quintessential Mercy Studios. > I didn't think it was French, but I wasn't looking. It is set in the > time between the Second Coming and Armageddon (seven years, according > to one school of interpretation; three and a half according to another). > It is also somewhat in the future, that future being rather cyberpunkish > up to the point of the Rapture, whereon nature starts to go berserk, > demons walk abroad, and the Antichrist starts his rise. Nope, that's American. I heard about it secondhand, but there is an actual INS spinoff game based circa the year 7000, called Stella Inquisitorius (or some such; I may be misspelling that second part). Several Archangels and Demon Princes from the present appear; however, others have gone missing, and new ones are also present. The remaining AAs and Princes have gone through a lot of changes; the original Novalis was apparently big on drugs, but has just said no in the future. Oh yeah, and every AA and Prince has his own custom sculpted planet. The setting is, as typical of the original French version, much darker and more absurd than SJG's version; I heard that one infernal weapon shot shards of Satan's own frozen semen (Ick!), which caused the target to die of pleasure. If anyone knows anything else about this game, or even more about the original In Nomine Satanis background, please post it! I'd love to hear... Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:01:09 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) In reply to: > I didn't know any angel could create spare vessels? I thought that > only certain angels could, like a Kyriotate of War... > Celestials can create as many vessels as they like at Character Creation. They are only limited by Character Points. Of course, they can only manifest one at a time. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:58:58 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates of Michael with multiple vessels. (was: In reply to: > You're missing my point, Perry: I purchased all three vessels at > character creation. I only want to know how much it costs me to > materialize a second (or third) vessel when I already have one active > vessel on the corporeal plane. This isn't about creating vessels, but > about toggling the Corporeal/Potential bit for each of them. > I could be wrong here, but I got the impression that a Kyriotate of Michael could only generate one vessel at a time with his attunement. That's still a bonus compared with having to desperately try to find one all the time. Oh well, it's up to your GM I suppose. In terms of materialising more than one vessel, I suppose either A) you can't do it (it's more than your total Forces), or B) 1 Essence, the same as switching a vessel. I don't know. I think the Kyriotate Sourcebook should be one of the first releases :) Leath. Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:39:18 -0700 From: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Subject: IN> Music, Music, and Noise Well, I've been thinking about music (especially after the earlier comment from someone who didn't particularly like Melody and Thrash), and it occurred to me that what we probably have here is a triad, not a duet. Music is extremely old and extremely powerful; it's capable of swaying humans in a thousand different ways, inspiring them and degrading them, bringing them hope and despair, love and war, triumph and tragedy. It's as close as humans can come to the Symphony the angels hear... and it's not going to be any minor thing. Not for either side. On the Celestial side, we have Harmony, Archangel of Music, Director of the Celestial Choirs, occupying the position Lucifer had before his fall. He wants the Symphony to sound clear on Earth as in Heaven, to lift mortals up to the heights God meant them to have before the Fall. Like any good musician, he's torn between wanting the mortals to perform their assigned parts perfectly, and admiring any worthwhile variations or compositions they come up with. True music needs the conductor, but it needs good musicians as well. On the Diabolical side, things are a bit more complicated. Descant, the Prince of Music, thinks music is wonderful. Really wonderful. _Such_ a powerful tool for leading people down the paths of despair and irrationality. Artists who sacrifice power, friendship, wealth, love, everything for the perfect tune. Groupies who break at least nine of the Ten Commandments to get closer to their idols. Teens who kill themselves because their favorite singer did. Oh, the agony and the ecstasy... and maybe, just maybe, if he can get enough mortals singing _his_ songs, the whole Symphony will start shading over into darkness and drag humanity with it to the Pit. "Hmmphh," snorts Cacophonix, Demon Prince of Noise. "The Symphony is _heavenly_, after all, not diabolical. Heaven, where everything that is not silence is music. How I hate them both! But we'll shout them down in the end!" Music is as close as the human soul can come to eternity, and the silly fools shouldn't be _thinking_ about eternity; they should be thinking about the here and now. Or, better, not thinking or reflecting at all. And if Earth can be filled with Noise, then none of them will even be able to _hear_ the Symphony, and that will be the ultimate Diabolical triumph. Needless to say, the two Princes _hate_ each other, and the Archangel tries to rescue true music from both corruptions. It's been a long, long battle, and Harmony is beginning to get weary, but neither of his two adversaries have ever quite been able to get the upper hand. Descant inspires (if that's the right word) the sell-your-soul-to-rock-and-roll crowd, Cacophonix "improves" it to heavy metal and big noisemakers, and Harmony manages to snatch a few Christian rock singers out of it all. And that's just one small skirmish; they've been fighting since the Fall. I haven't got much beyond that concept; would there be any interest in seeing further stats for these three developed? Tony Zbaraschuk E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu Special Collections Librarian & Archivist Phone: (909) 785-2382 La Sierra University Fax: (909) 785-2445 4700 Pierce St., Riverside, CA 92505 Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:46:51 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> House Rules On Apr 15, 7:42pm, Walt Mazur wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> House Rules > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:08:14 -0400 (EDT), Kellskn@aol.com wrote: > > > Thanks for the ideas. One of my players had body hits of 90, and another > >had 136! The rest of the group was around 16. Now I can even it out while > >still giving a (small) advantage to those who payed for it in creation. > > Also, combat is deadlier!! > > Sounds like they've been optimized for Corporeal combat. Throw some > Ethereal or Celestial attacks at them. Those with huge bodies will > probably be wimps in the other realms. My suggestion exactly. Numious Corpus: Tongue is nasty, nasty, nasty! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:56:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) On Apr 15, 4:57pm, Perry Lloyd wrote: > Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:52:35 -0400 (EDT) > Glimmer Man wrote: > > that nice combat-ready vessel/6 from being easily replaced. Besides, if > > vessels were as cheap as 1:1, why isn't _every_ Celestial puttering > > around in a 5 or 6? Also, any suggestions for Charisma cost? One or two > > > > I didn't know any angel could create spare vessels? I thought that > only certain angels could, like a Kyriotate of War... _Any_ angel can have multiple vessels (except for most Kyriotates), but can only use one at a time. Kyriotates of Michael can buy vessels like other Angels and may have more than one. They can 'energize' as many as they have the Forces to support (a human vessel counts as five forces for this calculation). So Kyriotate of Michael with 10 forces could 'buy' two human vessels and have them both active at the same time. Or he could energize one and still possess things with his other forces, etc. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:45:35 -0400 From: "Stephen B. Mann" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan > >> This is an interesting adventure, but a Mayan god is more likely to be at > >> home in the Yucatan than an Aztec one, IMHO. Possibly, just possibly, the Mayan pantheon were part of the victims of Uriel's purge of the "pagan" gods, and the Aztecs have taken over their sphere of influence. - -- Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu Webmaster Center on English Learning & Achievement http://www.albany.edu/cela ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:29:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Corey Subject: IN> Calabite of War Okay, whilst making a new Calabite of war, I ran into a problem. Baal's Clabim attunement is that they get to add their Corporeal Forces to attacks to destroy flesh. Does this mean CF*2 + Check digit or what? "Angels to some, demons to others" -Pinhead "Hellraiser" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:12:53 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Mammon, Prince of Greed At 01:02 PM 4/15/97 EDT, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >[Paul Strack:] >> Although he is technically the Demon Prince >>of Greed, Mammon has expanded his word to the point where he is nearly the >>Prince of Materialism. > >Reading somewhat between the lines in the book, I get the impression >that Haagenti is already covering this somewhat -- he's the ultimate in >"comsumerism".... As I recall, one or more of his attunements cover >more than just consuming food. > >Which wouldn't mean that Mammon couldn't also cover this area -- that >would merely put them in comflict, which is nothing new for Demon >Princes.... That was provided for in the original entry. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:09:46 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Mammon, Prince of Greed At 04:46 PM 4/15/97 GMT+10, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >In reply to: > >> The ones in IN are the most potent; Mammon may be politically >> potent, but in terms of raw power, he wouldn't be as tough as, >> say, Saminga (though a helluva lot smarter). > >Come on. A side of beef is smarter than Saminga. Not after Haagenti gets there... >> Hmm. Mammon seems more like a Lilim than a Balseraph. > >Except that I don't think Lilim were around before the fall..... So? Slight change, make him newer. Also, according to some theories the Fall of Man came before Lucifer's Fall. >> Err... Calabim of Mammon get penalized? How about the ability >> to obliterate sources of income? Gold mines, stocks, etc. > >Since all Calabim have to take one type of Discord anyway (except >servitors of Kronos), this is not really a penalty, except that the >player loses the choice. However, it's definitely not any kind of >powerful attunement, either. :) Loss of choice is always a penalty. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:45:14 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #119 > >"I figured out that the odds of getting an Intervention roll are 1 in > 109. 1 in 218 for eacc type. So someone please explain how one of my > players, a Malakim Of War, managed THREE Divine Interventions in the > space of twelve rolls!?!?!?! He wasn't cheating, I watched every > single roll. The dice were not loaded. The poor bastard demon he was > fighting didn't have a bloody *chance*." > >Ah, well, just because God doesn't play dice with the universe, it >doesn't follow He might not play with YOUR dice occasionally... > >Earl Wajenberg Just so long as Lucy keeps away... the thought of my RPG supplies portraying choice scenes from 'The Exorcist' does not appeal to me! "God help us, that Shedim's got the d10! RUN!!!!!!" > "Not a man to mince words. People, yes. But not words." > -Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_ ^^^^^^^^^^ Great book! The Church of Om could even be used for some ideas on Inquisition type IN campaigns. >Once again I've been thinking about those Word bound guys who are so >much fun to encounter. (I love the idea of the Demon of >Forgetfulness....err what's his name again? heheheheeh) >The one I've been thinking about is the Demon of Drug Abuse. Now there >would be a popular guy albeit a little undependable. Any thoughts on >this guy?? Wasn't he supposed to be portrayed in Night Music? >>ERROR. ERROR. THIS TRANSMISSION DEEMED HERETICAL BY DOMINICNET. REPORT TO >>THE HALLS OF JUDGMENT IMMEDIATELY. > >Who, me? But what did *I* say? Besides, I've got all >these books to shelve. Is it okay if only part of me reports? > >Archangel Beth, Kyrio of Archives... ALL OF YOU. DOMINICNET HAS SPOKEN. >>So someone please explain how one of my players, a >>Malakim Of War, managed THREE Divine Interventions in the space of twelve >>rolls!?!?!?! He wasn't cheating, I watched every single roll. The dice >>were not loaded. The poor bastard demon he was fighting didn't have a >>bloody *chance*. > >The Dice Never Lie. > Never been to Vegas, have we, Arch Beth? ;) - -Rogue, who wishes he could get some Divine Intervention in his next craps night ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:09:22 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates of Michael with multiple vessels. (was: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:45:20 -0700 Steven Feldon > You're missing my point, Perry: I purchased all three vessels at > character creation. I only want to know how much it costs me to > materialize a second (or third) vessel when I already have one active > vessel on the corporeal plane. This isn't about creating vessels, but > about toggling the Corporeal/Potential bit for each of them. > > steve > Ahh, I see. I was under the impression that celestials were GRANTED vessels by their superiors. But looking on page 48 that "...angels and demons may *create* animal vessels to inhabit as well." [*'s put added for emphasis] Thus, it seems that celestials do create vessels themselves Also, on page 14 ".. he'll [Tariel] generate enough Essence to create a new Corporeal vessel for himself...." But how much does this cost? Ahh... I see... On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:58:58 GMT+10 "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: > I could be wrong here, but I got the impression that a Kyriotate of > Michael could only generate one vessel at a time with his > attunement. That's still a bonus compared with having to desperately > try to find one all the time. Oh well, it's up to your GM I suppose. > In terms of materialising more than one vessel, I suppose either A) > you can't do it (it's more than your total Forces), or B) 1 Essence, > the same as switching a vessel. > Celestials can create as many vessels as they like at Character > Creation. They are only limited by Character Points. Of course, they > can only manifest one at a time. > > Leath. Looks like one essence, the same for switching a vessel. Sorry about the confusion. As for the cost of CREATING a new vessel on the spot, that's another story. Perry M Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:16:39 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:01:09 GMT+10 "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: > In reply to: > > > I didn't know any angel could create spare vessels? I thought that > > only certain angels could, like a Kyriotate of War... > > > Celestials can create as many vessels as they like at Character > Creation. They are only limited by Character Points. Of course, they > can only manifest one at a time. > > Leath. > Yes, yes, got that. Question is, how much does it cost to create a NEW vessel during the game? Let's say that I'm playing an Ofanim of Fire, or any ole celestial. Let's say that during the frist session of play, before earning any character points, I manage to get both the vessels which I purchased during character creation, destroyed. Doh!!!! What do I do now? Does on lose those Vessels? How much essence would it cost me to regenerate my vessels? Or, would I simply get those vessels "back" because I purchased them at character creation? Or, what if during the course of the adventure, I discovered that I really, really, wanted to turn into a bird, but I hadn't given myself a bird vessel during character creation... am I out of luck and just can't until I earn more character points, or can I spend essence and make a new one? Or, perhaps, redefine an old one, turning my Vessel/2 (cat) into Vessel/2 (bird)? Perry M Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:31:14 -0400 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan At 02:11 PM 4/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Russ Collins wrote: >> This is an interesting adventure, but a Mayan god is more likely to be at >> home in the Yucatan than an Aztec one, IMHO. > >Yes, I agree. But I found it much easier to find out information about >Aztec gods than Mayan ones. Plus Aztec dieties have a nastier reputation >in modern circles. And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, but it opens a whole can of ideological worms. The Fire in the Yucatan seed, though interesting, shows one of the potential pitfalls of In Nomine. Being Mexican, I can understand why certain aspects of Aztec religion may seem to "modern circles" as nasty, but to categorically place 'pagan' gods in the roles of "bogey" men that perform heathen sacrifices is a little too problematic for me. I'd like to point out that I don't mean to criticize Paul for his adventure, which I liked, his treatment of the Zappatista movement was well handled, my only concern is with the ideological constructs possibly operating within the game Just figured I'd add in my two pesos. ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:42:29 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Songs. "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:01:51 GMT+10 > > This > > would allow characters to accidentally create new songs, kinda. > > > > You may wish to only have new song creation occur with a 1/1/1 or a > > 6/6/6, in the character's favor, of course. New songs are fun, kinda > > like creating a new magical spell by messing up a previous one. > > My favorite still remains having the song blow up in the singer's > > face. Nothing quite like that chaotic energy looking to do something > > without enough guidance. > > On the Songs topic, here's an idea I've been toying around with: > Anti-Songs (for want of a better name). Basically I see this as if a > Celestial sings a Song BACKWARDS it can cancel the effects of the > same Song just sung properly. Whether this would require the > character to learn the Song backwards, or merely take a Will > (Perception, Intelligence?) roll to be able to reverse the 'words', > I'm not sure. The time limit would be either while the original Song > is still in effect (for duration Songs) or the character's Will in > rounds (for instantaneous Songs). For example, an Angel sings the > Corporeal Song of Healing on a mortal who just got hit in a > crossfire. Our Demon (with a Will of 6) has 30 seconds to sing the > Anit-song if he wants that Mortal to stay damaged. If the opposing > Anti-song is sung correctly, then the system to determine which Song > takes effect is the same as any other contested roll (look at the > Check Digits) although I'd allow the characters to spend extra > Essence to add to the CD for purposes of letting their Song establish > dominance (in efffect they are pumping extra fuel into it while it > fades). This could make Songs quite a bit more Noisy, but would add > an element of 'anti-magic' to a game, as well as allowing for 'Song > Combat'. > > Anyone have any comments? > > Leath. > SInging a song backwards, eh? That sounds really hard to me, depending on how difficult the tune is, and then only if you took the time to figure it out. I'm a singer, been singer since age 8 years of age and a Baritone since age 13... Make the anti-songs new songs, learnable as songs unto themselves, it would be possible to learn it from the song it cancels out. Anti-songs, after studing the song and it's possible antithesis, you may use the antisong at a level equal to the orginal at a penalty of 4. Thus you may use it effectively only through taking extra time, as it takes you a while to figure it out each time. Once this has been accomplished multiple times, the character has a chance to spend earned character points on this song, as a new song. Example: Nimrod, Ofanim of the Sword, has studied the Etheral Song of Form so that he can pierce the shroud of his foes. He already has Eth. S. of Form/3, thus his effective anti-Eth. S. of Form is at -1, he must take extra time to use it effectively, until he is allowed to spend character points on it. [Please forgive my lack of literary knowledge on Nimrod.] Perry M Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:22:57 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Songs. In reply to: > SInging a song backwards, eh? That sounds really hard to me, > depending on how difficult the tune is, and then only if you took the > time to figure it out. I'm a singer, been singer since age 8 years > of age and a Baritone since age 13... The reason I thought that maybe you wouldn't have to learn a new song is that I don't really see *Songs* as being like human songs. Sure there may be some words, and a tune, but Songs are more an extension of Will for a Celestial, therefore it would be more akin to extending that Will in a different form. I'm not sure. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:19:53 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs Perry, > Yes, yes, got that. Question is, how much does it cost to create a > NEW vessel during the game? This was discussed a week or so ago, so I'll sumarise what I can remember. The general feeling and concensus was that it costs the same amount of Character Points to create a new vessel as it does to create them when the character is created (3 points per level of vessel + 2 points per level of charisma if desired). If you get your vessels killed and are yanked back to heaven (or hell) and you have the points you can make a new one on the spot. If you don't have the points but have been doing a good job you can try to convince your master to *lend* you the points (and have to pay them back eventually). If they are really pleased with your job when you got killed, they may give you a new vessel (equivalent to the old one) free. If they are annoyed at you, they may only loan you enough CPs for a crappy (low level) vessel. If you really screwed up, they may even keep you off Earth for a while to do menial tasks and prove you deserve a second chance... > Or, what if during the course of the adventure, I discovered that I > really, really, wanted to turn into a bird, but I hadn't given myself > a bird vessel during character creation... am I out of luck and just > can't until I earn more character points, or can I spend essence and > make a new one? Or, perhaps, redefine an old one, turning my Vessel/2 > (cat) into Vessel/2 (bird)? That's what the (Celestial?) Song of Form is for. To do such a radical change would probably require a lot of Essence and be noisy, but it can be done. The Song of Possession can also be used to *borrow* a bird's body for a while if you really need it. Otherwise you're out of luck (unless you've been doing a *really* good job and can summon your boss and convince them to lend you the points you need). I hope this helps. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:14:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> House Rules >> two house rules we have instigated. >> >> First is not too radical. Body hits formula changed to vessel level * >> (Strength + Corp Forces.). This brings the body hits of everyone down a >> bit, but still makes 40 achievable and one PC ended up with 68. >> >> Second - No Essence spent on a failed Song Roll. This is a bit of a >>change. >> A couple of reasons for it. First there was a thought that characters >> should just buy all the Songs they really wanted to use at rank 5 or 6 to >> make sure they succeded and that they didn't spend all their essence for >> nothing. This means no one would have a lot of Songs or they wouldn't >>have anything else. Second I didn't want characters spending all their Essence >> and getting no result. So now on a Song Roll failure you still generate >>the base disruption to the Symphony, but you don't spend any Essence. A >>variant of this which I just thought of is that a failure expends 1 Essence, >>rather than the full amount. >> > Thanks for the ideas. One of my players had body hits of 90, and another >had 136! The rest of the group was around 16. Now I can even it out while >still giving a (small) advantage to those who payed for it in creation. > Also, combat is deadlier!! Umm... 136 hits would require a Strength of 8 and a (Vessel Level + Corp. Forces) of 17. You've got a math error in there someplace. Since the maximum level for a Vessel is 6, the player could have only had something less than 88 hits, since an 8 Strength implies less than 6 Corporeal Forces. Doesn't sound like your players with the 16-hit characters *needed* deadlier combat, anyway.... "evening out" your group is something more easily done by asking players to redesign their characters toward a more harmonious goal. Frankly, I don't have a problem with the "lethality" of combat the way the rules stand right now, either. I'm cool with the idea of Celestials taking more damage to destroy than helicopters, sometimes. That's why they are *Celestials*. If you really *must* have deadlier combat, I like the idea of just doubling "killing damage" attacks. As a GM, I can come up with *plenty* of ways to throw as much firepower at my players as I want to. > Second, half my group are Soldiers of Hell, with average corporeal >forces of two. Since all their songs are corporeal, the average target >number for songs is 3. Twice characters have wasted ALL their essence on >failed songs, and only once has any song succeeded. Still, a 1 essence >penalty for a failed song is appropriate. You mean these Soldiers only bought their Songs at level 1, and never take any extra time to improve their chances? No wonder they're failing all the time! It only takes five minutes of preparation to give yourself a +3, and adding Essence just improves your chances on top of that! Still, you're better off spending just a few little Character Points on improving your skill with the Song, if you're going to bother with it at all. A Soldier starts with 24 Character Points... surely he can squeeze a couple more in there to get that Song up above Level 1 from *somewhere*. I think a Soldier with 3 Corporeal Forces, and a level-3 Song, who takes 5 extra minutes to get everything *right*, has *all* the chance he needs to get the Song to work. If he just *has* to have it work, OK, *spend* a little extra Essence, but remember, that target number of 9 succeeds 83% of the time, and if he spends just 2 extra Essence, his chance goes up to 97%... and if he spends *3* extra Essence, it'll require Intervention to stop him!! Soldiers aren't *supposed* to be the bigshot, Symphony-changing, saviors of the day. They are there to do *other* things, and if you simply *must* have a combat monster, go play a Malakite or a Calabite instead. Just my opinion.... Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:35:43 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) > Yes, yes, got that. Question is, how much does it cost to create a > NEW vessel during the game? > Let's say that I'm playing an Ofanim of Fire, or any ole celestial. > Let's say that during the frist session of play, before earning any > character points, I manage to get both the vessels which I purchased > during character creation, destroyed. Doh!!!! What do I do now? > Does on lose those Vessels? How much essence would it cost me to > regenerate my vessels? Or, would I simply get those vessels "back" > because I purchased them at character creation? GM's call. Officially, you have to pay for the new vessel with _character points. Hit up your Superior for a loan. Some GM's might have the Superior just _give_ a vessel to a servant who is competent, but just got unlucky. Except as a house rule, you cannot regenerate a vessel with just Essence. > Or, what if during the course of the adventure, I discovered that I > really, really, wanted to turn into a bird, but I hadn't given myself > a bird vessel during character creation... am I out of luck and just > can't until I earn more character points, or can I spend essence and > make a new one? Or, perhaps, redefine an old one, turning my Vessel/2 > (cat) into Vessel/2 (bird)? Each new Vessel cost character points. Period. If you want to 'trade in' a vessel for another, talk to your Superior (i.e. the GM). Of course, all these rules are subject to modification by the GM, but all the stuff above is official. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:55:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Joshua Mosqueira wrote: "And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, but it opens a whole can of ideological worms." Yes, but I'm afraid such a can of worms is inevitable when any game is based on monotheism. It is probably inevitable when any game involves any religion, real or imagined. You can't touch religion AT ALL without opening these worm-cans or ones very like them. Furthermore, condemnation of pagan gods is fundamental to all the major monotheistic religions, both historically and conceptually.It's what the "mono-" means, after all. Monotheism asserts there is exactly one god, so any religion asserting a different number is essentially wrong about the most important topic there is. There are some ways of softening the blow. In the late middle ages, when Classical paganism was safely dead, it was fashionable to interpret the gods of Greece and Rome as misunderstood angels, and "Jove" was sometimes identified with God. (I know of one such place in Dante's "Purgatorio" or maybe it's the "Paradiso.") C. S. Lewis, who had a great deal of sympathy for both Classical and Norse paganism, used the misunderstood-angel trick in his Space Trilogy, which I mentioned in a recent post. For instance, there is a creature who governs the planet Mars, who is simultaneously a science-fiction "energy being," an angel, and the being known on Earth as the gods Mars, Ares, and Tyr. Likewise, the angel of the planet Mercury is identified with Hermes and Thoth. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:50:57 -0400 From: Tom Beliech Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Joshua Mosqueira wrote: But I found it much easier to find out information about > >Aztec gods than Mayan ones. Plus Aztec dieties have a nastier reputation > >in modern circles. > > And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value > judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's > monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being > aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, > but it opens a whole can of ideological worms. The thing is, In Nomine is designed around Gnostic Christianity, and as a result reflects the biases of that religion. Don't forget that the game was originally designed by a Frenchman; I'm not an expert on foreign affairs but I would guess that France is somewhat less concerned about diversity than we tend to be in North America. The IN book itself doesn't really say that "pagan" gods are allied with demons - it suggests, if I am correct, that non-Christian deities have been consigned to the Ethereal realm by Heaven's hosts. So these gods are not necessarily "evil", only opposed in nature to the Christian hosts so neither demons nor angels have much to do with them. But that doesn't mean that these gods are dead or evil within the game's context. But consider also that Christian beliefs aren't necessarily treated with kid gloves by this game - My worry is that some fundamentalist is going to run across this book and we're going to have a new Inquisition into RPG's by the latest batch of intolerant hypocrites. But to get back on topic - consider that not even the Archangels are described as being anywhere near perfect; heck, if it's your campaign, why not have an adventure seed where your angelic party runs into a non-christian deity who is actually a nicer, more kindly and more perfect (maybe even more powerful!) being than the players' Archangels? It would put a spin on things... After all, this is a game about roleplaying the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell's hosts, through a "modern" and somewhat skeptical viewpoint. > The Fire in the Yucatan seed, though interesting, shows one of the > potential pitfalls of In Nomine. Being Mexican, I can understand why certain > aspects of Aztec religion may seem to "modern circles" as nasty, but to > categorically place 'pagan' gods in the roles of "bogey" men that perform > heathen sacrifices is a little too problematic for me. Heck, why not have an adventure where an Aztec or Mayan "spirit" actually fights off a group of demons to preserve a sacred area? It would give the PC's something to think about! > I'd like to point out that I don't mean to criticize Paul for his > adventure, which I liked, his treatment of the Zappatista movement was well > handled, my only concern is with the ideological constructs possibly > operating within the game But the game is ABOUT these Christian "constructs", so these are going to be the most likely themes in an IN campaign. But who says you have to cooperate? Why not just use the rules and change the backgrounds to suit your group's preferences? > > Just figured I'd add in my two pesos. > ______________________________________________ > Joshua Mosqueira, > effigy@total.net Tom Beliech ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #120 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.