From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 16 19:06:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21696; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10868 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:46:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:46:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199704162246.RAA10868@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #121 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 121 In this digest: Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Re: IN> Calabite of War Re: IN> Music, Music, and Noise Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan IN> Adventure: A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) IN> Xexistanai (new Demon Prince -- Long!) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #119 Re: IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Pagan Gods (Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan) Re: IN> Adventure: A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 Re: IN> Music, Music, and Noise Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Re: IN> Why conceal? Re: IN> Why conceal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:37:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Russ Collins Subject: Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 > >thank the Archangel of Sanity-Preservation! another Know the Enemy list. > >did i just come late to the dance, or are you planning to do a KtE > >series from the heavenly viewpoints? > I wish she would! I'm playing an angel's campiagn(being me, I serously mess > with the concepts of good and evil) and I could use the help. Of course, I'm sure that Beth wouldn't object if someone else wanted to tackle the angelic POV while she continues with the demonic... Russ Collins rgc@io.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:34:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Tom Beliech wrote: "The IN book itself doesn't really say that "pagan" gods are allied with demons - it suggests, if I am correct, that non-Christian deities have been consigned to the Ethereal realm by Heaven's hosts. So these gods are not necessarily "evil", only opposed in nature to the Christian hosts so neither demons nor angels have much to do with them. But that doesn't mean that these gods are dead or evil within the game's context." Not only that, but when Uriel when on a killing spree against the pagan myth creatures, he got mysteriously yanked upstairs, and hasn't been seen in centuries. Before being allowed to finish. Tom, you also described the game as based on "Gnostic" Christianity. What do you see about the game that is Gnostic? When I think of Gnosticism, I think of a belief in salvation through knowledge of sacred secrets or mystical experience as contrasted with faith, antipathy toward the body and the material creation, and frequent anti-Semitism. I don't see that in IN. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:45:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Joshua Mosqueira wrote: > And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value > judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's > monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being > aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, > but it opens a whole can of ideological worms. Actually, I tend to have the opposite problem with the group of people I play with. Many of them have a pagan bent, and have some measure of hostility towards Christianity. They tend to automatically trust any pagan spirits they run across, and dislike all the angels. I do my best to give an even handed presentation of things; I believe that all the various spirits - angelic, demonic and pagan - have complex motivations of their own, and I try to alternate portraying them in a positive and negative light. > I'd like to point out that I don't mean to criticize Paul for his > adventure, which I liked, his treatment of the Zappatista movement was well > handled, my only concern is with the ideological constructs possibly > operating within the game Thanks. To be honest, I was much more nervous about using the Zapatistas than I was about the Aztec god. Its good to know that it came off all right. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:37:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Glimmer Man Subject: Re: IN> Calabite of War On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Corey wrote: > Okay, whilst making a new Calabite of war, I ran into a problem. > Baal's Clabim attunement is that they get to add their Corporeal Forces to > attacks to destroy flesh. Does this mean CF*2 + Check digit or what? That's the way I've been reading it; ditto for Belial's (somewhat more useful) Calabim attunement. -Heath Reynolds (hareyn01@morehead-st.edu) "Not a man to mince words. People, yes. But not words." -Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:39:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Glimmer Man Subject: Re: IN> Music, Music, and Noise On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote: > I haven't got much beyond that concept; would there be any interest in > seeing further stats for these three developed? Oh yes, very muchly interested. >;[) BTW, if anyone's Servitors could get access to the anti-Songs discussed elsewhere, wouldn't it be those of the Prince of Noise? Say, a high-up Distinction, perhaps? Just a suggestion... -Heath Reynolds (hareyn01@morehead-st.edu) "Not a man to mince words. People, yes. But not words." -Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:01:07 -0400 From: Tom Beliech Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Tom, you also described the game as based on "Gnostic" Christianity. > What do you see about the game that is Gnostic? When I think of > Gnosticism, I think of a belief in salvation through knowledge of > sacred secrets or mystical experience as contrasted with faith, > antipathy toward the body and the material creation, and frequent > anti-Semitism. I don't see that in IN. > > Earl Wajenberg I was using "gnostic" in the sense that some people that I game with use it - referring to the "mythic" aspects of Christianity, like Angels, Demons and Indulgences (well, I consider the belief that you can use money to buy 'grace' as pretty mythic ;> ). I realize that this isn't really what "gnostic" means, though - thanks for correcting me; I was to busy thinking up the post to realize that I wasn't really using the correct terminology. Tom Beliech ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:03:45 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) Quoth John Karakash: > _Any_ angel can have multiple vessels (except for most > Kyriotates), but can only use one at a time. Kyriotates of > Michael can buy vessels like other Angels and may > have more than one. They can 'energize' as many as they > have the Forces to support (a human vessel counts as > five forces for this calculation). So Kyriotate of Michael > with 10 forces could 'buy' two human vessels and have them > both active at the same time. Or he could energize one > and still possess things with his other forces, etc. > > Quoth Steve Feldon: > > Okay, so at character creation, I bought a human (five forces), a cat > (two forces) and a falcon (also two forces). I descend to Earth and > energize my human form. . . > > What I've been trying to get an answer to is how much Essence it will > cost me, if any, to energize my cat and/or falcon forms once I already > have one vessel in existence. You seem to imply none, but. . . Wanted > to be sure. > > Also, I take slight exception with "he could energize one and still > possesss things with his other forces." I asked about this last month > and I thought that Moriah said that a Kyriotate of Michael or Laurence > would _always_ have the forces that were invested in having a vessel > tied up in that vessel, even if it wasn't currently manifest on the > Corporeal Plane--the word I was asking about was "abandoning" the > vessel. So if I buy a five force human and two two force critters, I > have _no_ forces for possession at _all_, even if I'm in Celestial > form. Ever. Please tell me this is right--the character becomes even > more fearsome if he can do Kyriotate schtick, too. . . . > > I'm sorry to have done such a bad job describing what I was asking > every time, but Kyriotates are just as inherently mind-boggling on > paper as they are in Celestial form, I think. :) > > steve > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:17:01 -0400 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan At 09:50 AM 4/16/97 -0400, you wrote: > But to get back on >topic - consider that not even the Archangels are described as being >anywhere near perfect; heck, if it's your campaign, why not have an >adventure seed where your angelic party runs into a non-christian deity >who is actually a nicer, more kindly and more perfect (maybe even more >powerful!) being than the players' Archangels? It would put a spin on >things... > >After all, this is a game about roleplaying the Christian concept of >Heaven and Hell's hosts, through a "modern" and somewhat skeptical >viewpoint. This I understand, and my post was not meant to challenge the game, I just thought that these are issues are revelent; if not as players and GMs then as readers. If the angels and demons are painted in IN in shades of gray, so should the Marches and the pagan gods that inhabit them. I think this would add more depth to the game. I think an interesting story seed would have a bunch of Celestials haveing to deal with human worshipers of some "pagan" god: do they force them to abandon their ways (echoes to the Conquest of North America by the Europeans, and the treatment of Native Americans) or find some way in which to meld Celestial beliefs with those of the human worshipers, or just leave them alone....... >Heck, why not have an adventure where an Aztec or Mayan "spirit" >actually fights off a group of demons to preserve a sacred area? >It would give the PC's something to think about! > This is what I was trying to get at, but the manner in which pagan gods in IN are presented does not invite this kind of reading. It also ties in nicely to the brief seed I mentioned eariler. >But the game is ABOUT these Christian "constructs", so these are going >to be the most likely themes in an IN campaign. But who says you have to >cooperate? Why not just use the rules and change the backgrounds to suit >your group's preferences? Exacetly, this is all I wanted to raise in my first post. Adios ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:48:39 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:31:14 -0400, Joshua Mosqueira wrote: >And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value >judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's >monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being >aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, >but it opens a whole can of ideological worms. It seems to me the major worms would be those of marketing a game in the US that went any farther. Indeed, some have complained about Marc's smuggling, Janus's stealing, and so forth. But it really doesn't change game play whether a GM wants to treat God as the God merely of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; the God of the entire Earth; or the God of the Universe. Suit yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:28:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Adventure: A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Hollis McCray wrote: > You know, I don't really think it's important to find out why the War > remains a secret. but here's a story idea based on keeping the war a secret. > The "Other Side" is planning on presenting quantitative proof to the mortal > realm. The PCs are dispatched to stop it. How about this: A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing The player characters (preferably angels, but demons are a possibility) are called in to deal with an urgent problem in Kentucky. It seems that the ministry of a televangelist by the name Reverend Harold Bishop has recently had a Celestial encounter. According to an (un)holy spy within Bishop's church, the good reverend witnessed the miraculous appearance of a Celestial being, and plans to share the good word with his flock. The PCs must prevent this revelation from happening, and learn of what is going on. The spy was not a witness to the miracles, so few details are known. The Celestial being appeared in a glowing field of light, and supposedly healed a badly injured man. He then spoke comforting words to Reverend Bishop, telling him that he had been chosen for a special revelation. Reverend Bishop agreed to allow the apparent angel to speak to his flock on live TV. The celestial being itself could be almost anything: a rogue or Outcast angel, a demon, an Ethereal spirit with an ax to grind, or maybe just mortal chicanery. What Happened The Celestial being in question is in fact a Balseraph Servitor of Nybaas name Caliban. His demonic compatriots arranged an accident that injured one of the technicians on the set of Reverend Bishop's show. Caliban then appeared and - with a judicious use of the Celestial Song of Form (for wings) and the Corporeal Song of Healing - demonstrated his divine nature. Caliban wasn't lying when he told the reverend that he was an angel. He just neglected to mention the "fallen" bit. Caliban has been working on the reverend with his Resonance for the last few days. At this point Bishop is completely convinced of Caliban's holy nature. Bishop is beginning to air commercial advertizing that he will have an actual angel of the Lord speak in an upcoming show. A great deal of PR is being devoted to getting out the word, and the mainstream media is beginning to pay attention as well. Caliban is laying low until the actual day of the show, but several other demonic servants are watching the reverend's organization for the Celestial intervention that is likely to come. They hope to delay and confuse the issue until the day of the show arrives and Caliban can make his "revelation". Reverend Bishop's Ministry Reverend Bishop is actually a sincere man, devoted to spreading the word of God. His ministry has gotten large enough that it is not entirely under his control, however. Bishop's church has grown to the size of 5000, and his weekly television show reaches nearly a quarter million more. Bishop's ministry rakes in big money, from donations, advertising and marketing spinoffs. This sort of money attracts avarice. Bishop's PR person is one Samantha Stone, a greedy and grasping woman more concerned with wealth and reputation than Christian works. Oddly enough, she is the person most likely to want to stop the TV appearance of the angel; she is worried that it will somehow blow up in the ministry's face. Furthermore, Stone is used to having the reverend wrapped around her own finger, and doesn't like the competition. For now, she is going along with the reverend's plan, but is seeking some sort of alternative. The rest of Bishop's ministry is an odd mix of devoted Christian's (many of whom are extremely loyal to the charismatic Bishop) and cynical media technicians. Demonic and angelic spies are seeded amongst this cast of characters. A Servitor of Marc is watching the ministry to make sure a signifigant percentage of its collected wealth goes to charity foundations (this is the holy spy). There are the allies of Caliban as well, looking to make trouble for anyone meddling in their plans. The Infernal Plan With demons, few things are ever as they seem. Caliban has no intention of revealing the existence of angels. In fact, he plans to stage an "angelic appearance" that is so hopelessly fake that even Bishop's most adoring fans will see through it immediately. He will walk on stage with a chicken feather and wire wings, spout a few prophecies that he clipped from a tabloid, bungle a healing and generally make an ass of himself. Caliban's control of Bishop is great enough that he expects to be able to get through the whole performance before he is yanked from the airwaves. After Caliban's disastrous fraud, Bishop should be ruined. Betrayal by their minister could extend in doubt in the Lord, and hundreds of thousands of mortals can be led astray. Caliban hopes to utilize any divine interferance to make the situation even worse, since the angels should be unaware of his true plan. The angels may find themselves in the uncomfortable position of accessories in Caliban's plot. Caliban won't appear until 15 minutes into the show, so direct attacks on him will be nearly impossible without thousands of witnesses. Caliban isn't above labeling his attackers as demons as well. Reverend Bishop is also impossible to sway. He is caught too deeply in Caliban's lies. The PCs will have to work carefully and indirectly if they want to save the reverend's church. - -- Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:48:51 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:16:39 +0000, "Perry Lloyd" wrote: >Yes, yes, got that. Question is, how much does it cost to create a >NEW vessel during the game? >Let's say that I'm playing an Ofanim of Fire, or any ole celestial. >Let's say that during the frist session of play, before earning any >character points, I manage to get both the vessels which I purchased >during character creation, destroyed. Doh!!!! What do I do now? Unless you're a Malakite, you're in Trauma (P.67) for a long time. >Does on lose those Vessels? How much essence would it cost me to >regenerate my vessels? Or, would I simply get those vessels "back" >because I purchased them at character creation? If you're a Malakite or after you get out of trauma, good question. The old vessel is dead at a body of -(vessel level x Strength). I suppose it has to heal, at least, but it can't until it's occupied again (p.63, end of Physical Healing). Since vessels can magically move (p.53, Returning to the Corporeal Plane), after your Superior reams you for dying, he probably dumps you at your local Tether or other base. Unaided your vessel will heal at 1 body per day. If you have friends who know the Song of Healing at high levels, you'll heal pretty fast. If you had to pay experience points to buy a new vessel after death-- well, that doesn't seem to work with Malakites, who are expected to die a lot. They'd be constantly in debt for vessels and never advance. Even for non-Malakites, a vessel costs 3 points per level, so it could take several gaming sessions to work off the debt. This just dosn't work to me. >Or, what if during the course of the adventure, I discovered that I >really, really, wanted to turn into a bird, but I hadn't given myself >a bird vessel during character creation... am I out of luck and just >can't until I earn more character points, or can I spend essence and >make a new one? Or, perhaps, redefine an old one, turning my Vessel/2 >(cat) into Vessel/2 (bird)? I think you're out of luck until you can buy a another vessel with experience points. But instead you can buy the Song of Form at a very high level or the Song of Possession pretty cheaply. Or you could use Numinous Corpus to have a cat with wings--hey, it would be different from the usual pigs and toasters... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:18 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) On Apr 16, 9:03am, Steven Feldon wrote: > Subject: RE: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) > Quoth John Karakash: > > > _Any_ angel can have multiple vessels (except for most > > Kyriotates), but can only use one at a time. Kyriotates of > > Michael can buy vessels like other Angels and may > > have more than one. They can 'energize' as many as they > > have the Forces to support (a human vessel counts as > > five forces for this calculation). So Kyriotate of Michael > > with 10 forces could 'buy' two human vessels and have them > > both active at the same time. Or he could energize one > > and still possess things with his other forces, etc. Whoops! I flubbed there. For each vessel a Kyriotate of Michael has bought through the 'normal' channels, those forces are unusable for possessing things. Sorry about that mixup! (Human vessels count as five Forces for this calculation btw...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:05:02 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> Xexistanai (new Demon Prince -- Long!) Xexistanai (Prince of Pain) No matter where you go in the world, you can find pain. Emotional or physical, no matter what the cause, a servant of Xexistanai will be there . . . smiling. One of the original Fallen, it is rumored that this former Angel of Pleasure revolted because of the bounds placed on him by his old Word. When Lucifer whispered of the pleasures that could be had in a world without restrictions, he found fertile ground with which to work. As Hell's torturer supreme, he is sought out by the other princes, but not too often, and only with reluctance. He is known to be a bit indiscriminate about practicing his trade at times. Andrealphus frankly despises him, both for the fact that the Prince of Pain's servants are frequently ugly from self-multilation, and the fact that their Words and methods sometimes conflict. He and Beleth get along well, however and have collaborated several times. He considers himself an artist without peer and the other Princes to be mere amateurs (talented at times) to be tolerated. His servants are among the most loyal in Hell since they enjoy their duties as much as their master enjoys his. Those who falter in their devotion quickly find themselves playing a much different role in Xexistanai's next exhibition. DISSONANCE A servitor of Xexistanai must never alleviate pain in any form unless the ultimate goal is to inflict even more by the temporary cessation of agony. A starving man might be given spoiled food, for example. Or a jilted lover's sorrow temporarily soothed, only to betray that person worse than before. BAND ATTUNEMENTS Balseraph Can sense what lies will cause the person the most pain. On a successful Resonance roll, the Balseraph can inflict Mind hits (with a power of +1) to their victim. Djinn Can tell what any attuned person treasures most and the best way to damage it. For one Essence, the Djinn can transfer the damage from _one_ attack to an attuned person. Calabim Xexistanai has the most controlled Calabim. When they succesfully use their Resonance on a living, feeling creature, the damage inflicted occurs over the course of a number of minutes equal to the damage done (one point of damage per minute). During this time, the affected creature is at a penalty equal to the Calabim's Celestial forces for _any_ action. Habbalah With a Perception roll, the Habbalah knows exactly what to do to cause a person emotional pain. With a successful Resonance roll they can use a new Emotional Effect: Pain. Any specific thing the Habbalah specifies causes the victim anguish in its presence. The victim must make a Will roll _each round_ to voluntarily stay in the presence of the indicated object. This lasts a number of days equal to the check digit of the Resonance roll. Lilim Lilim of Xexistanai can grant a new type of favor: pleasure. The Lilim damages one-sixth of the person's Body hits for each Level of the favor but the victim feels it as pleasure. Each time the addict meets the Lilim again, he must make a Will roll (minus the Level of the last 'favor') or beg for another Favor from her. A successful roll means that addict never has to involuntarily ask another Favor again, but if he does it voluntarily the addiction is reinstated. And each Favor must be at least one level higher than the last. The seventh time automatically kills the victim. Shedim Can _automatically_ possess any human that takes pleasure from pain and use such a Vessel for [Celestial Forces] days without having to increase the 'sin level' each day. Impudite With a successful Perception roll, these Impudites can start rumors that will eventually harm or destroy their chosen victim. For example, they could start a rumor that a certain person was the murderer that the police were looking for and soon many people would believe it, possibly even the police themselves! Any individual person can make a Perception roll to shake off the effects of the rumor if confronted by obvious counter-evidence. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Twisted Pleasure: Any single attack that does 5 or more points of damage to the Servitor increases their Strength by one for an hour (this can take it higher than 12). Shared Pain: For any attack they do with their bodies (without a weapon) they gain hits equal to one-quarter the damage of the attack, rounded down. DISTINCTIONS Knight of Pain Feels all pain as pleasure, never suffers shock effects Captain of Agony Can sense all pain within [Perception*10] yards and its cause on a Perception roll if within [Perception] yards. Baron of Suffering For one Essence they can make any successful physical attack do Mind Hits equal to the Check Digit of the attack. RELATIONS Allied: Beleth Hostile: Andrealphus, Saminga Associated: Everyone else BASIC RITES Torture someone physically or mentally for 24 hours Cause someone to commit suicide due to suffering (2) CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 INVOCATION MODIFIERS A child with a skinned knee +1 An IRS audit in progress +2 A messy divorce +3 A heroin addict in cold-turkey withdrawl +4 A person who is dying of cancer +5 A person with over 50% of their skin flayed/burned off +6 - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:50:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #119 At 10:45 PM -0500 4/15/97, RogueLdr wrote: >> [...] >"God help us, that Shedim's got the d10! RUN!!!!!!" I'd thinkit would be worse with a d4, myself. >>Once again I've been thinking about those Word bound guys who are so >>much fun to encounter. (I love the idea of the Demon of >>Forgetfulness....err what's his name again? heheheheeh) >>The one I've been thinking about is the Demon of Drug Abuse. Now there >>would be a popular guy albeit a little undependable. Any thoughts on >>this guy?? > >Wasn't he supposed to be portrayed in Night Music? Fleurity, Demon Prince of Drugs... Arguable. Maybe a Demon under him? >>>ERROR. ERROR. THIS TRANSMISSION DEEMED HERETICAL BY DOMINICNET. REPORT TO >>>THE HALLS OF JUDGMENT IMMEDIATELY. >> >>Who, me? But what did *I* say? Besides, I've got all >>these books to shelve. Is it okay if only part of me reports? >> >>Archangel Beth, Kyrio of Archives... > >ALL OF YOU. DOMINICNET HAS SPOKEN. But, but... Yves *expects* me to finish this. What if some of me shows up now and the rest follows along when I'm done here? >>>So someone please explain how one of my players, a >>>Malakim Of War, managed THREE Divine Interventions in the space of twelve >>>rolls!?!?!?! He wasn't cheating, I watched every single roll. The dice >>>were not loaded. The poor bastard demon he was fighting didn't have a >>>bloody *chance*. >> >>The Dice Never Lie. > >Never been to Vegas, have we, Arch Beth? ;) Well, they're not Lying. They're just not telling you the Truth you want, eh? >-Rogue, who wishes he could get some Divine Intervention in his next craps >night Gambling. Tsk. Is that any behavior of an Angel not of the Wind? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:11:51 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? Walt Mazur wrote: > [I wrote] > >Hey, who said God *knows* it's going on? > > Who sees with equal eye, as God of all, > A hero perish or a sparrow fall, > Atoms or systems into ruin hurl'd, > And now a bubble burst, and now a world. > --Alexander Pope > > Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? > And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. > --Matthew 10:29 All made up. Fnord. OK, let us consider first of all the proposition that God is omniscient and omnipotent, and keeping that in mind, the problem of the existence of the War between Heaven and Hell. Clearly, there are three alternatives: 1) God knows about it, would like to do something about it, but can't 2) God knows about it, but isn't going to do anything about it 3) God doesn't know about it 1) is, as I understand, the line taken by INS/MV, the original French version. 2) is the line taken by In Nomine, and can be summed up as ineffability, i.e. cop-out. After all, if the War *is* a straight fight for dominance between God and the Devil, and God really wants to win, he can't be omnipotent (by this I mean being able to rewrite history, uncreate Hell and its legions, the whole shebang). I think God is *potentially* omniscient: He doesn't necessarily know everything that happens, as soon as it happens, but He can find out if he's interested. Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Of course there's no reason for it, it's just our policy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:07:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) At 8:35 AM -0400 4/16/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: [...] > Each new Vessel cost character points. Period. If >you want to 'trade in' a vessel for another, talk to your >Superior (i.e. the GM). So Lilim can't swap vessels even-steven? Ah, well. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:05:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Pagan Gods (Re: IN> Adventure: Fire in the Yucatan) At 12:31 AM -0400 4/16/97, Joshua Mosqueira wrote: >At 02:11 PM 4/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >>On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Russ Collins wrote: >>> This is an interesting adventure, but a Mayan god is more likely to be at >>> home in the Yucatan than an Aztec one, IMHO. >> >>Yes, I agree. But I found it much easier to find out information about >>Aztec gods than Mayan ones. Plus Aztec dieties have a nastier reputation >>in modern circles. > >And here lies my one complaint with In Nomine; it seems to invite value >judgment towards those systems of belief that do not fit into the game's >monotheistic paradigm. While this whole business about 'pagan' gods being >aligned with the demonic never set well with me, I know it 'fits' the game, >but it opens a whole can of ideological worms. I'm not sure that it's *quite* as bad as all that, eventually. We'll have to wait for _The Marches_ to tell, but I was thinking that the non-aligned Ethereal Gods were living in the Far Marches, outside the scope of either Blandine or Beleth. Maybe only the Fair Folk, who make their teind/tithe to Hell, are still *really* allied with Beleth... And that not entirely willingly. But then, I'm inclined to believe the Ethereal Gods when they talk about the days when Jehovah was just another snotty-nosed brat... ;-) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:20:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Adventure: A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing Ooo. I *like* this one... I always enjoy a good chance to misdirect my players (they always wind up somehow derailing *my* plans, anyway). Now I just need to actually start running IN... Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:23:47 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: Re: IN> Know the Enemy #4 At 09:37 AM 4/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >thank the Archangel of Sanity-Preservation! another Know the Enemy list. >> >did i just come late to the dance, or are you planning to do a KtE >> >series from the heavenly viewpoints? >> I wish she would! I'm playing an angel's campiagn(being me, I serously mess >> with the concepts of good and evil) and I could use the help. > > >Of course, I'm sure that Beth wouldn't object if someone else wanted to >tackle the angelic POV while she continues with the demonic... If I had the time. As it its, I barely have time to run my campaign. Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:23:42 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: Re: IN> Music, Music, and Noise At 06:39 PM 4/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >Well, I've been thinking about music (especially after the earlier comment >from someone who didn't particularly like Melody and Thrash), and it >occurred to me that what we probably have here is a triad, not a duet. >Needless to say, the two Princes _hate_ each other, and the Archangel >tries to rescue true music from both corruptions. It's been a long, >long battle, and Harmony is beginning to get weary, but neither of his >two adversaries have ever quite been able to get the upper hand. Descant >inspires (if that's the right word) the sell-your-soul-to-rock-and-roll >crowd, Cacophonix "improves" it to heavy metal and big noisemakers, and >Harmony manages to snatch a few Christian rock singers out of it all. >And that's just one small skirmish; they've been fighting since the Fall. > > >I haven't got much beyond that concept; would there be any interest in >seeing further stats for these three developed? Yes, please. This could make an _interesting_ campaign. Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:43:06 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) On Apr 16, 3:07pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Vessel costs (was: Dreamscapes) > At 8:35 AM -0400 4/16/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > [...] > > Each new Vessel cost character points. Period. If > >you want to 'trade in' a vessel for another, talk to your > >Superior (i.e. the GM). > > So Lilim can't swap vessels even-steven? Ah, well. As a plot element, I can easily imagine a GM letting this happen, but not as a 'on the fly' sorta thing. So a Superior might say, "I need you to be a fifty-year old janitor for the next year. Here's your new vessel." But just deciding that the year's fashions demand a new vessel is probably out of the question. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:02:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? Sam Kington wrote: "After all, if the War *is* a straight fight for dominance between God and the Devil, and God really wants to win, he can't be omnipotent..." I don't know if IN has an obvious stand on this, but in standard monotheism, the War is *not* a straight fight for dominance. The War is a war between the angels and the demons (including Satan), not between God and the Devil. God stands to the Devil not as one rival king to another, but as a king to a crimelord. But going much further into this runs the risk of shifting from game to real theology. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:07:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Sam Kington wrote: > OK, let us consider first of all the proposition that God is omniscient > and omnipotent, and keeping that in mind, the problem of the existence > of the War between Heaven and Hell. Clearly, there are three > alternatives: > 1) God knows about it, would like to do something about it, > but can't > 2) God knows about it, but isn't going to do anything about it > 3) God doesn't know about it It's always dangerous to guess at the motivations of an all-powerful, all-knowing being. God as he is in the Christian faith is so far beyond anything human that there's just no way anyone could really understand him. It could very well be that for some reason which is unknown to or unknowable to mer mortals or even most angels, the war between Heaven and Hell will end up being the best thing... I guess that's a cop out, but seems quite reasonable to me. Who knows? God or a direct messenger might show up and ask the players to do something that seems totally random but is somehow very important The other argument I've seen for why bad people and bad things happen (and IN supports this even more with demons creating problems behind the scens) is that true Free Will can't exist if you don't have the choice to do evil and follow through... I'm not going to go into the details (frankly, I haven't studied it a whole lot). Bolie IV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #121 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.