From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 21 02:27:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10692; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:18:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22236 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:05:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:05:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199704210705.CAA22236@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 128 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Well, if everyone complained this politely, Heaven's job would be much easier :) On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mark Grundy wrote: > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM > sees > fit? Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they > want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) Essence as a limitation on power is pretty important, IMHO. In my experience, players tend to overuse supernatural powers to solve their problems. If those powers are a limited resource, they tend to save them for dramatic moments, making them, well, more dramatic. For the little things, they rely on their wits and simple tools, keeping the game for being *too* unbelievable. As for Dissonance and Discord, I also see them as useful mechanics. The way I interpret the game, when an Celestial goes against its own nature, generating dissonance, it is not being punished from above for breaking some law. Celestials are spiritual beings, with less "free will" than humans. Going against their own natures is physically harmful to them. This even applies to the Dissonance they get from their Superiors. By aligning themselves to their Superiors, Celestials attune themselves to the Superior's word, giving them access to additional powers, but restricting their free will even further. > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, > due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at times. They > argue > that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else run such a > game? So far, I've found that something in between is best. Some angels and demons get along reasonably well, others loathe one another. Some times they cooperate, sometimes they politely bicker and sometimes they brawl like it's the end of the world. In my game, though, permanent Celestial death is extremely rare. Most of the time, the worst that happens is that dueling Celestials lose their vessels, and return again to fight another day. > * There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? The easiest way to do it is to ignore everything you don't want to deal with. Start with a narrowly focused campaign, say the conflict between one Archangel and one Demon Prince. Make all your players have the same Superior. Restrict your characters to one song each, or something along those lines. Add further complexity as you go along and as it is needed. Another good trick is to start your player characters off as humans. Then their characters know almost nothing about the secret war, have no supernatural powers, and can learn about the world as they play. If you want your players to be Celestials, start them off as Remnants, having forgotten their angelic natures, and allows them to slow "rediscover" the War and their true natures. In fact, that's what I'm doing in my game right now. > * What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or > self-agrandisement. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? Well, my own players spend most their time just trying to figure out what's going on :) This is a tough question, not just for In Nomine. Simple goals of mayhem and profit are much easier to grasp and fulfill. I can compare my last two sessions. In the earlier session, the players had to try and convince a teenager to get off drugs and leave the streets (without revealing that they were angels). In the later session, they duked it out with some demons over a film with mysterious power. The drug session had more depth and moral complexity, but my players enjoyed to fighting more. In my experience, stories of love and personal enrichment are difficult to tell, but well worth striving for. It's easier, though, if you give your players the occassional "simple" session where the goals are clear cut and there is something nasty to pound on. > * Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. Again, variety is the key. My demons vary from diabolically cunning or insanely murderous through "just doing my job" up to "this guy is so nice, why is he a demon at all". Some demons like their lot, and revel in depravity. Others believe in the ultimate cause of Hell - personal freedom - and are unhappy with its methods. Others are simply creatures stuck in an unpleasant situation with no way out; they get along as best they can. > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > (Too > many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so frustrated > that > I thought about abandoning In Nomine, and working up a version using the > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? I'm not sure I can help you here. I've only used the In Nomine rules once, in a demo I ran at a convention. The rules were so-so, neither the best nor the worst I've seen. Most of the time I run my games without dice or rules at all. I've streamlined my In Nomine game down to the point where I have only one mechanic: Essence. Each player has a rough description of their character and based on that description, I decide what happens when they do something. Whenever the player really wants something to happen the character spends some Essence; the more fantastic, the more Essence they need. That overrules me, and the player's decision goes. It works for us. Anyway, I hope some of these suggestions help. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:35:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems > Essence as a limitation on power is pretty important, IMHO. In my > experience, players tend to overuse supernatural powers to solve their > problems. If those powers are a limited resource, they tend to save them > for dramatic moments, making them, well, more dramatic. For the little > things, they rely on their wits and simple tools, keeping the game for > being *too* unbelievable. Celestials _do_ get some supernatural abilities at no Essence cost, such as Resonances and Attunements. Paul does a good job explaining why the players don't really need more above. > Another good trick is to start your player characters off as humans. Then > their characters know almost nothing about the secret war, have no > supernatural powers, and can learn about the world as they play. If you > want your players to be Celestials, start them off as Remnants, having > forgotten their angelic natures, and allows them to slow "rediscover" the > War and their true natures. In fact, that's what I'm doing in my game > right now. Oooh... Do tell. If not on the list, please email me with a summary of your campaign. I've been toying with some Remnant concepts for a while and would love to hear about your game. > Most of the time I run my games without dice or rules at all. I've > streamlined my In Nomine game down to the point where I have only one > mechanic: Essence. Each player has a rough description of their > character and based on that description, I decide what happens when they > do something. Whenever the player really wants something to happen the > character spends some Essence; the more fantastic, the more Essence they > need. That overrules me, and the player's decision goes. It works for > us. You have very trusting players, Paul. > Paul Oops da "Trying to register for GenCon" Ogre PS- Remember when we were talking about Freddy Kueger as a demon? I've been working on the "Bogeyman" role for demons. Coming Soon... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:50:46 -0500 From: Scott Turnbull Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Mark Grundy wrote: Has anyone else had these kinds of comments from IN players? > > * ``It feels like superheroes, only more constrictive.'' No, but I can see players saying this. This is just an opinion, but it is likly that the folks feeling this way are the folks who play Vampire the Masq so they can feel like bad asses, instead of exploring the personal horror in the game. Aside from the vampire point, it may just be that the players are concentrating on the powers of the characters too much and not on the 'What's it all about' aspect. > * ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' I haven't gotten complaints on this perse, but if my players don't want to memorize every political detail of the game, then they just play characters not into polotics. Simple solution there. The players I've seen who do get into polotics start at a narrower base (i.e. the Archangles most strongly opposed/allied with thiers, there are only a few of each here) and learn the workings of more subtle polotics as the game progresses. The polotics of the opposite sides are even easyer.... Start from a view of absolute hate, and sprinkle seeds of intrigue as the game goes on so they learn. > * ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' Haven't run across this either, but if they need character classes maybe this isn't the game for them. > * ``The game system is too complicated.'' I've gotten quiet the opposite to this, that the game mechanics are very simplified. I've seen folks all the time trying to add or refine thing for more detail. I have heard and do agree that finding things within the book is VERY difficult, so ferriting out the exact roll for something or number can be a pain. > * ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' Yes, I've heard this. I think this is understandable though as In Nomine is a game of quiet a different genre. Give them a few games (with a good GM/story) and hopefully they will come up with some things. > * ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' Haven't heard this, but then again I haven't ever seen anyone who likes a system numbers system that controls character morality. This is resolved entirly in the 'Theater of the Mind' otherwise known as roleplaying. If morals were numerical we could write an algorithm and watch it play out on computer. > * ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' I've heard this question before, and it can only be answered by the GM. As a good rule of thumb though, if the players are asking this a GM may want to take a hard look at his plotline. > * ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' Haven't heard this before, but It is probably true. Players I've seen just seem to accept it as part of the game and par for the course in a complicated world. > * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement > rules?'' Never heard this, but there are only 2 types of dissonance for each character basically. One for their chior/band and one for archangel/prince. Attunements can be avoided if a player doesn't want to deal with them. > * ``Why do characters take so long to generate?'' Never this either. Long in comparison to what??? D&D maybe, but definitly Rolemaster or many of the other systems out there. > * ``Why should a celestial care which city he's in, or who he > meets?'' This is a valid question and Its been asked, and one that should be immediatly addressed by the GM or purposefully left unanswered to be explored as part of RP. > * ``Do devils really have to go around parking badly?'' Yes, why do you ask? Oh, no... I've got a handycapped sticker, I just forgot it at home. :) > > * ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' If they ask this they should go back to sunday school. Of course this could also be a something the GM want to point out in his game. > So, here are some questions: > > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and > `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have > discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever > the GM > sees fit? Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate > etc... as often as > they want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) Not tried it, but I find an numerical system of resource expendeture adds some flavor to the game by making players manage their affairs with some skill > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a > much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like > each > other, due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at > times. They > argue that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else > run such a > game? I play in a game where Celestials don't nessisaraly attack on site, but concentrate more on undoing each others plots. More like a chess game then a football game. It has been rewarding and gives a lot of chances for dialog. > * There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in > past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? > How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? I don't see it as that complicated. But This is not a game for the roleplayingly challenged either. > > * What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The > sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or > self-agrandisement. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things > of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of > the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? This varies too much to address here, but some character aspirations I've seen that are interesting is a character to probes every demon he finds to see if it's possible to redeam him. > > * Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to > play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. Yes it does, and should in my opinion. This may not be a popular theory, but I feel if folks are playing demons as misunderstood proponents of free thought, then they are missing something about the genre. On the other hand, if folks really do like playing a bunch of truly evil people and spend their night fantasing about doing evil, then they need therapy. There are ways of pulling off demon characters, but I find it difficult to pull of as a group. For instance, a demon being declaired evil by default because he let his emotions get away with him/her. > > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the > story needs. > (Too many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so > frustrated > that I thought about abandoning In Nomine, and working up a version > using the > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: > does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? I'm not sure, if the GM can't tweak a few things to streamline play perhaps he needs to reconsider running this game. > I'm not sending this mail to pick on the players who like In Nomine; > I did > want the chance to complain though, because I am very disappointed > in how > the game has played so far. I'm also hoping to pick up any advice > that > could improve the game for my players. I'd be very grateful for > thoughts or > tips from experienced In Nomine GMs. I appreciate your feelings and I hope I haven't made you feel attacked, It wasn't my intent. From your comments I'd like to make a few poorly informed statements on what may be getting in the way. It seems that you and your other players are very used to another way (system) of carrying things out and that this or any game the diverges from the main stream would be giving you problems. Roleplaying wise it seems that your group is having difficulty forming what should be the core of any roleplaying experience (i.e. character goals, social conflict, motivation...). It might be helpful if you all got together for a brainstorming session at character creation and talked about what type of person you wanted to play. Here you could all begin to feed of of each others most basic conecpts to form more specific details about how you want to relate to each other and the rest of the symphony. The GM would be of incredible help here, sharing with you what type of conflict he sees as typical or likely, giving you a direction to think in. Anyway, I know there are some very sort statements on what could be essays in some cases, but there was a lot asked. I hope some of it was helpful, and if not, just use the delete key, it works wonders. Cheers, Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:27:42 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems In reply to: > * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' I've had that one, but my players are usually very lazy about learning ANY rules system, so I basically ignore it. As long as they have an idea of what THEY can do, I'm happy. > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM > sees fit? Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) IMO, these rules are essential to the game (the ideas of them anyway, not actually the mechanics). If you allow your characters to do whatever they want, whenever they want the game loses its moral implications, which is what you stated earlier to be seeking. Celestials (from both sides) are not humans. They do not have the freedom of choice that humans have, and they suffer if they go against their basic natures. Without essence, dissonance or discord, your players will just leave your game for dead and do what thhey like. Essence rules are necessary to place characters in REAL situations where they don't know exactly what the outcome is going to be (eg. "If only I'd saved that last bit of Essence for a Healing Song"). Dissonance is necessary to show a player that unlike humans, the character is actually bound by behaviour codes, and Discord is necessary to show the players that if they ignore their dissonance, they will suffer for it. If you want your players to not have to worry about these mechanics, let them play humans or maybe Soldiers. They don't have to worry about any of them, except Soldoers must worry about Essence expenditure. > > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, Angels and demons are only violent towards each other if the character concept demands it. The only Choir that routinely goes around beating up demons are the Malakim, and if your player just wants a combat beast, they're going to get bored with the character before long (not to mention probably killed). Of the demons, none of them are required to be violent against angels, only if they have to or want to. According to the story in the book and several other references, your average demon is frightened of angels and will avoid them without conflict if possible. Demons are selfish. They certainly won't attempt violence against an angel if it's likely that they'll get their own butt kicked. > * There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? The politics and mechanics aren't complicated, it's simply interpretation (except for the Kyriotates, which cause everyone a few hassles). The politics are only as complicated as you make them. Most of the list traffic involving politics are simply different people offering their opinion. When you read all the views, it appears complicated, but if you read them only as ideas for forming your own, they are not complicated at all. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? "War" is probably not the best term to use. At best, the conflict between Heaven and Hell at the moment is a Cold War. Neither side wishes to launch a complete offensive, so the Earth-assigned celestials are 'special agents' trying to further their causes in hostile territory. Various celestials can stay on Earth and not get involved, but this makes for boring games, because if the characters try to do anything more interesting than their laundry they are eventually going to run into other celestials. Besides, because they are not part of the Earthly Symphony, they are going to have an effect on the world no matter how low they try to lie. > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > (Too > many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so frustrated > that Just drop the rolls if they get in the way. Make a decision about whether the celestial hears a disturbance/ possesses a human/ whaterver. As long as your decisions are fair, there are no problems (but you shouldn't let your Will 2 Kyriotate go around possessing every demon he meets). > I'm not sending this mail to pick on the players who like In Nomine; I did > want the chance to complain though, because I am very disappointed in how > the game has played so far. I'm also hoping to pick up any advice that > could improve the game for my players. I'd be very grateful for thoughts or > tips from experienced In Nomine GMs. I wouldn't call myself experienced, I've only run one game and have had some similar problems to your own. However, I think they are easily overcome. Keep going, and remember that as GM you have the final say. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:51:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Howdy! On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mark Grundy wrote: > The two games we've run though, have been disappointing. The games felt > very different from the kind of story in the front of the book, and > I've come to wonder if this game could support long-term play with the > `look and feel' of the introductory story at all. The game IS what you make of it. > * ``It feels like superheroes, only more constrictive.'' > * ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' > * ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' > * ``The game system is too complicated.'' Angels/demons are more powerful than mortals. Were your players expecting a superheroes game? The system actually is very simplistic (some say too much so). What did you find too complicated? Is it something that you can streamline? > * ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' There's plenty of flavour for that in the book. If it still bugs you, then read some of the suggested fiction in the back. > * ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' A lot more *rigid* mechanics, mind you . > * ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' Why? > * ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' Which ones? > * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' Why memorize them? Use the GM screen or copy them onto a page. If the numbers piss you off, fudge the mechanics. The greater the insult to the symphony, the easier it is to detect. > * ``Why do characters take so long to generate?'' Really? The system is simple, but maybe the rules are a bit distributed. > * ``Why should a celestial care which city he's in, or who he meets?'' What role is the celestial playing? What are their objectives? What are their *orders*? > * ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' Read the New Testament. Read the Book of Enoch. Read Milton. Read or view anything about angels/demons. :) > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM > sees > fit? Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they > want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) Limitations. The resonance/dissonance provides a moral/limiting framework, depending. Essence provides a limiting mechanism, so the game a> doesn't turn into Champions, and b> the celestials work more clandestinely. > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, > due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at times. They > argue > that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else run such a > game? Individual celestials may have fond memories about each other, but remeber there has been a WAR in heaven. Roughly 1/3 of the Heavenly Host fell. There's a lot of bad blood, due to God and Lucifer's differing views on the fate of humanity. :) You make a nice point about caricatures. The game can easily be drawn into more of a caricatured play. This depends on the group. I don't run that way because that type of thing does *nothing* for me. > * There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? Throw out what you don't like. A lot of people like the politics and the infrastructure. Ditch it if it means nothing to you. Come up with your own Princes/Archangels. Keep things mysterious. As RPGs go, the mechanics are quite easy, althought the rules are poorly distributed. If you don't like something, play with it. > * What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or > self-agrandisement. Not at all. The examples are neat, but simplistic as they serve as illustrations. Characters will be more complex. Some of the characters in my group are "following orders" and working through events because it follows their natures. Some follow events out of curiosity. Some have grave doubts as to whether things are being run right on Earth as well as Heaven. Some players are afraid of Falling, and the temptation offered from The Adversary. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? You BET. This provides some of the richest details of the game. > * Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. WHO says they have to be psychotic? Demons can be as normal, urbane, intelligent, charismatic, or plain as anyone else. Flesh them out, so to speak. > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > (Too > many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so frustrated > that > I thought about abandoning In Nomine, and working up a version using the > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? The game already is simple enough. If not, make cuts. I find that it is more simple than Feng Shui. If thy rule offends thee, pluck it out. > I'm not sending this mail to pick on the players who like In Nomine; I did > want the chance to complain though, because I am very disappointed in how > the game has played so far. I'm also hoping to pick up any advice that > could improve the game for my players. I'd be very grateful for thoughts or > tips from experienced In Nomine GMs. The first thing you have to ask is what do you want from the game. What do your players want? If you like moral choices and problems, put them into your games. In Nomine will support it wonderfully. There hasn't been a lot of adventures to really get an idea on how some people model their gameplay. draw yours from your own interests or from fiction. Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:20:32 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:35:35 +1000, Mark Grundy wrote: >I've run two games of In Nomine now -- a very straight investigation/get >the bad guy game to introduce the players to the game, and a curlier >intrigue game to explore the world and its influences more. > >What I'd hoped for from this game was: > >* support for playing beautiful stories about moral choices, the > grandeur and wonder of the world as it `really is'. >* diabolical plots, cunning betrayals and hidden hands. >* support for my players to explore what makes celestials tick. I'm still planning a first campaign, but I think the game is capable of doing what you want. But you say you're running, "a straight...bad guy game" and an "intrigue game," which sounds to me like a mystery. So, why aren't you running a moral choices game if that's what you want? The game isn't going to lead you into tough moral choices all by itself: it leaves the openings, but you have to take them. Ditto, plots. As for what makes celestials tick, maybe you should be thinking about what makes your players tick. >* ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' >* ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' >* ``The game system is too complicated.'' I tend to agree with these somewhat from a GM's perspective. It *is* a very complex game. From the player's point of view, it's not bad, I think. The book seems to want you to pick a chorus then an Archangel, but the reverse may be better for some. That gives you the Resonances and Disonances, which the players should read before choosing other stuff. You now pick Attunements from your Archangel's pages and Songs and any other resources you want. Then do the Forces and attributes to make those work. Done. I don't think it's worse for players than any fantasy game with many spells. >* ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' Don't do anything dissonant. Do things to make your Superior's word stronger. If you're an angel, try to help people; if you're a demon, try to help yourself. >* ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' I'm not familiar with it. Sorry. >* ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' They'll be whatever the GM puts into them. I'd say start with the moral issue and then decide what Archangels and Princes will be interested in it. The game has a very wide range of powers. If you start with a completely random set of characters, probably no plot will deal with them all. For example, Blandine and Beleth deal with a single individual's dreams at a time (Kyrios with a few): unless your campaign is going to have critical individuals, they're useless. Nybbus is only useful for a grand campaign where media will play an important role. So I'd say start with the issue you want to explore, decide which Superiors will be involved in it, and maybe give your player a hint what kind of powers will be useful: emotional, combat, etc. >* ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' Beats me. Feet here, yards there, miles... >* ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' The GM has to worry about all the dissonance that may come into play; they're his concern. The attunements are pretty much like spells in a fantasy game: you only need to know the ones you're going to use. For players, they just need to know the "spells" the bought, plus their own resonances and dissonances >* What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM > sees fit? Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) Dissonance is crucial: it's what keeps a celestial moral. From a story point of view, it keeps celestials from taking easy outs. Or, you can put the PCs in a situation where they'll have trouble not gaining dissonance, then they have to cure it. Discord is just a bad case of dissonance. Essence is just like the amount of ammo in a gun: it keeps you from slinging power all over the place instead of finding a more surgical solution. >* The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at times. They > argue that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else run such a > game? No problem with it, with the right selection of celestials. >* There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? I don't think players have much of a problem if they choose Archangel and chorus first, then pick what's natural in terms of resources from that. >* What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or self-agrandisement. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? Let me pick a celestial at random: an Ofanim of Gabriel. Gabriel is Archangel of Fire, but divine vengence might be clearer. (Yeah, that plays into your vengence comment, but I picked at random. Oh, well.) Ofanim want to get there, do the job, and move on; they don't wait to try to take out Mr. Big, they nail the baddie up front and move on. Gabriel is out to punish cruelty: Ofanim are into getting people who have run from justice. An Ofanim of Gabriel might decide, or be told, to specialize in fathers who desert their children to poverty while they live it up in another jurisdiction. (S)he would love the children and their mothers, with possible exceptions. (S)he would aspire to do a good job, gain Distinctions and perhaps eventually the word of Paternal Responsibility. >* Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. They only have to be psychotic enough to accomplish their goals. >* In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. (Too > many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so frustrated that > I thought about abandoning In Nomine, and working up a version using the > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? It's up to the GM to decide when rolls actually have to be made and when it's just a waste of time. If it's a situation where the PC could just keep trying until it works, it's silly to make them roll. I'd forget about reaction roles entirely. >...tips from experienced In Nomine GMs. That, I must confess, I'm not. But the game does feel pretty good to me, despite what you say about its complexity being true. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:21:16 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:50:46 -0500, Scott Turnbull wrote: >> * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement >> rules?'' > > Never heard this, but there are only 2 types of dissonance for each >character basically. One for their chior/band and one for >archangel/prince. Attunements can be avoided if a player doesn't want >to deal with them. One more if the celestial's working for someone other than his own Archangel or Prince (Eli excepted). This is a nice opening for the GM. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:40:38 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems > The first thing you have to ask is what do you want from the > game. What do your players want? If you like moral choices and problems, > put them into your games. In Nomine will support it wonderfully. There > hasn't been a lot of adventures to really get an idea on how some people > model their gameplay. draw yours from your own interests or from fiction. > > Laterish! > > Ken Hmmm... now THIS I find interesting. There are some people on this list (myself being one...) who've posted quite a few adventure seeds. Mr. Newquist and Ms. McCoy have collected all of our adventure ideas at http://www.io.com/sjgames/in-nomine/articles/ These adventures should provide MUCH insight into the types of games people have been modelling their gameplay after. I seem to recall there are about 20 different adventures posted there. This should be a significant indication of the styles of various In Nomine sessions, no? Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com And the Creator said... "Fiat Lux" c=(lambda)(freq.) c=3.0 x 10^8 m/s e=mc^2 ... and he saw that it was Good. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #128 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.