From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 21 19:52:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07839; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:27:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14194 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:41:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:41:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199704212341.SAA14194@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #131 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 131 In this digest: IN> Night Music Update and Jordi Question IN> Remnants in My Campaign Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #2, #5, #8, #11, #13 Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle Re: IN> In Nomine problems IN> Q:About these Lillim Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> In Nomine problems RE: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle Re: IN> Phasekiel - Angel of Heresy Re: IN> Q:About these Lillim Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:55:07 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: IN> Night Music Update and Jordi Question I just wanted to drop the list a quick note to say I'm still alive and skimming the digests when I have time. Night Music, the first supplement, is getting ready to slide off to the printer in a week or two, so expect it in stores around the end of May or the first of June. As a reminder, it'll contain: - -- Expanded writeups for Laurence, Archangel of the Sword, and Saminga, Prince of Death, as well as expanded game mechanics and character creation guidelines for Soldiers of God, Soldiers of Hell, Saints and Undead. - -- New Superiors: Fleurity, the Demon Prince of Drugs and Christopher, Archangel of Children. - -- There should also be a bunch of new Discords (like Addiction, Guilt (for the good Catholic angels) and Obsessed), as well as game mechanics for various drugs and poisons. - -- In Nomine Austin: Don't Mess With Texas, an In Nomine setting where angels and demons get along with each other, even if they're not exactly friends. Introducing a bunch of Tethers and their Seneschals (like Enchanted Rock, Hippy Hollow, the Hill Country Catacombs and the House That Pain Built); Wrenchial, demon of Amplifiers; Tomas, angel of Catchy Tunes; Lauren, demon of Strippers; and my personal favorite, Druiel, the angel of Teenage Death. - -- The Demon Prince of Rock and Roll, an adventure that attempts to tie everything together, introducing Furfur, Demon Prince of Hardcore. It'll be out soon. A bunch of people have put in a lot of work on this book, from writers to artists, and we hope it maintains if not exceeds the standards set in the core rules. Somebody wrote: > A Servitor of Jordi, say a Malikim, sets some explosive charges on a bridge > that is used by a logging company. He moves some distance away where he can > still see the bridge and puts the radio detonator on the ground. He changes > from his human vessel to his wolf vessel and waits. A bus taking loggers > comes along and the wolf steps on the detonator setting off the charges and > killing about a dozen people. > > How much disruption to the Symphony is there? I know that John K, our excellent netrep, has already stepped in with his version of an answer, but here's what I'd intended when I wrote this. Technically, there'd be no disturbance. So why wouldn't every group of angels have a servant of Jordi hanging around to do their dirty work for them? Well, Jordi doesn't get along that well with the destructive Archangels; he's more likely to be hanging with the Eli/Novalis crowd, who wouldn't be taking advantage of their natures just to avoid the repercussions of dicking with God's creation. After all, it is God's creation you're dicking with, and there's a reason your actions have repercussions. Anyway, I can't imagine a servant of Jordi would be messing with dynamite in the first place. After all, they disdain all such matters. Humanity, its trappings and its constructions are beneath them. They're primal forces of nature, and while some of them may have weasel vessels, they still wouldn't stoop to game weaseling. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:57:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Remnants in My Campaign On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > Oooh... Do tell. If not on the list, please email me with a > summary of your campaign. I've been toying with some Remnant concepts > for a while and would love to hear about your game. Well, the campaign started with the PCs believing that they were human. None of them have any memories going back more than twenty years. They all felt a subconscious urge to visit NYC, and when they arrived, they made their way to a particular museum. Inside the museum they found a glass case with four mysterious gems, glowing with a light that only they could see. At this point they noticed each other and found each other strangely familiar. Before they could do much, the entire museum was taken hostage by a group of terrorists. While the terrorists set up a perimeter, two of them wandered around taking people's names. After a while, it became clear that these two were looking for someone, probably the PCs, and that they were inhuman (one had a forked tongue). Just as the two terrorists/demons learned who the PCs were, a group of Malakim burst through the ceiling. Chaos ensues, the demons flee, and the PCs (and the gems) are taken across the street to a Catholic Cathedral. There they meet angels, talk to the Archangel Laurence and discover that their gems are in fact their Celestial hearts. Several questions arise: * How did the hearts leave Heaven or Hell? * Who are the PCs, angels, demons or something else? * How did they come to be where they are? It is initially thought that they are Remnants, but Remnants don't have hearts. Laurence sends them to New Hampshire for some angelic psychoanalysis, and threatens that the reason for their "fall" will have serious repercussions on how they are treated by Heaven. In NH, the PCs have several strange dreams in which events of their recent lives (in the last twenty years) are mixed with events in the distant past. While dreaming, they are attacked by a Shedim. The PCs subconsciously assume Celestial form, drive off their attacker, and are revealed as angels. The PCs are told by their psychologist that it seems very unlikely that they are Remnants, and that most likely they are angels who have (somehow) had their memories erased. This is a feat that would take incredible amounts of power. It also seems that they are slowly regaining their memories. Their psychologist recommends that the PCs wander around, following their whims and dreams, in the hopes of recovering their lost pasts. At the moment, that is exactly what they are doing, wandering from place to place, getting into random trouble. The PCs do not entirely trust Heaven, and aren't sure what to make of Hell, either. It is clear that both Heaven and Hell are interested in the eventual result of their quest. It is slowly becoming obvious that in the process of going from place to place, they are following someone or something, a powerful being that cannot be found through a straight forward search. To be honest, I haven't really decided exactly what is going on, but it seems likely that it involves the second coming, the old gods and all sorts of scheming on both sides of the Celestial War. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 13:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #2, #5, #8, #11, #13 >#8: As delivered by a Servitor of Jordi > >Lilith: Rarely concerned with animals. I'd add: "Lilith's servitors and the Lilim may sometimes be persuaded to aid in freeing animals from the vile captivity enforced by Men. Be careful of making deals, though." - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:50:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Paul F. Strack wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: > > A Servitor of Jordi, say a Malikim, sets some explosive charges on a bridge > > that is used by a logging company. He moves some distance away where he can > > still see the bridge and puts the radio detonator on the ground. He changes > > from his human vessel to his wolf vessel and waits. A bus taking loggers > > comes along and the wolf steps on the detonator setting off the charges and > > killing about a dozen people. > > > > How much disruption to the Symphony is there? > > Urk! Touch question. IMHO, Servitors of Jordi simply have extremely > high Roles as animals. They don't disturb the Symphony, but only as long > as they act like the animal they are. Setting off bombs is outside their > Role, and disturbs the Symphony. Gnawing on a human would not. Hmmm...what if the fox just happened to be walking by and just happened to step on the trigger? - -Q - --------------------------------------- I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi. Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:02:04 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 > > I'll work on the errata to that one... Ought to have >it when I get the Creation view on things put up. > >Thanks. I hadn't been aware that Vapula'd been infiltrating. VAPULA? WHO SAID ANY... YES. THAT'S RIGHT. VAPULA. CERTAINLY. - -DominicNet. Keeping Heaven safe from Heresy. >I doubt that anyone put in In Nomine games in the schedule, because the >GM cutoff date was well before IN hit the stores. On the other hand, I >suspect SJG will be running demo (if not demon...) games at least. > >Perhaps someone could organize a pickup game there. (Not me! I'm >running 4 GURPS games already. Assuming they're accepted, which I >expect....) > > >- ---Walter I'd enjoy a pickup game, as well! I am very anxious to see how everyone else is running things. I'm going to struggle mightily to attend this year- if anyone else wants a pickup, let me know, we can work on something.... And John, do you know if SJG is runnning a demo(n) game? > >Is it just me or has anyone noticed that the majority of the big >questions about the game stem from those do-gooder Angels? > >I mean with Kyrios and now the Elohim, those guys are just too confusing, >the thing is you KNOW where you stand with a demon...;) >Then again my players call me biased... hrmm whatever could they mean??? You're right about that, pal. But then again, good is just about always more complex than evil! I can't wait for On Wings Of Angels (Angelic players guide, or so the rumor goes)... hopefully it will clear up some questions. On the topic, has it occured to anyone else how much spinoff this game could produce? If SJG ever sank so low as to take the T$R approach (not that I think they would).... lessee.... a "Complete Guide To" every Choir/Band makes 14 books.... one for each Superior makes 27 more.... the mind boggles. - -Rogue, He Who Has Not The Money For 41 More Books ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:26:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle Mmmmm! Book! :-d Devoured, reccomended. *Strongly* reccomended. God goes on vacation... with no forwarding address. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:01:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Typo: In my previous post, under "Melancholy," the phrase "tip the up" should have been "trip them up." Sorry. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:50:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Chad H." Subject: IN> Q:About these Lillim We are having a problem concerning the fact that followers of Nybbas automatically get a servant with a certain amount of points. My only question is...how do you figure points if you want to buy up the level of your servant. The same question applies to Lillim who get a bonus to their role and status as well...how do you figure the cost to buy these things up since technically the cost is Role*Status/2. Anybody know the answer. Thanks, Chad H. =========================================================================== | http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~malkav | Chad Horsley | | | Member of the Camarilla: | | The TRUTH is out there! | Membership #9609-098 | | | Character: | | e-mail:setite@ukans.edu | Henri Boumaza | =========================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:00:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 At 4:02 PM -0500 4/21/97, RogueLdr wrote: >> >> I'll work on the errata to that one... Ought to have >>it when I get the Creation view on things put up. >> >>Thanks. I hadn't been aware that Vapula'd been infiltrating. > >VAPULA? WHO SAID ANY... YES. THAT'S RIGHT. VAPULA. CERTAINLY. > >-DominicNet. Keeping Heaven safe from Heresy. Gotta watch out for those Lilim "cracker" sorts. >On the topic, has it occured to anyone else how much spinoff this game could >produce? If SJG ever sank so low as to take the T$R approach (not that I >think they would).... lessee.... a "Complete Guide To" every Choir/Band >makes 14 books.... one for each Superior makes 27 more.... the mind boggles. > >-Rogue, He Who Has Not The Money For 41 More Books I'm sure SJG wouldn't sink so low. They'd only do books for Archangel/Demon Prince opposed pairings, not one book per Superior... (Or AA/DP "similar" pairings, or something.) And I'm sure that they'd do the same with the Choir/Band books -- one for Seraphim/Balseraphs, etc. Except it would be one for Kyriotates (or maybe two, you know how those guys are) all to themselves... O;> (Angel Smilies... O:::) <--a Seraph }:::> <--a Balseraph O) <-- an Ofanite }X) <-- a Calabite O;> <-- the personal smilie of the Archangel Beth) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:03:18 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Mark Grundy wrote: > > Hi, Hi Mark - I recognize you from the Feng Shui list, being one of the few Australians who seem to play the game. > I've run two games of In Nomine now -- a very straight investigation/get > the bad guy game to introduce the players to the game, and a curlier > intrigue game to explore the world and its influences more. > > What I'd hoped for from this game was: > > * support for playing beautiful stories about moral choices, the > grandeur and wonder of the world as it `really is'. > * diabolical plots, cunning betrayals and hidden hands. > * support for my players to explore what makes celestials tick. > > The introductory story in the book seemed to promise all of these things. I > was so convinced by the story that I bought two copies of the game -- one > for me, and one for my friend. > > The two games we've run though, have been disappointing. The games felt > very different from the kind of story in the front of the book, and > I've come to wonder if this game could support long-term play with the > `look and feel' of the introductory story at all. > I hear some of where you're coming from on this. I've thought a lot about IN (haven't actually run it yet), and I've been working on some IN fiction (hopefully to be included in the first IN anthology). One of the problems is that IN was marketed as a 'cinematic' game, and tends to emphasize action in many ways in the rulebook. As a cinematic game, though, it's not that hot - FS works a whole lot better. IN combat would be (I think) overlong, almost AD&Dish. It also doesn't help that the adventure in the GM screen is kind of ordinary - a McGuffin hunt with NPC interaction, no moral points past the obvious. The are some much better ideas on the IN resource page that Elizabeth McCoy runs - look for the ideas by Rob 'Bodhi' Wolff in particular. I think the best way to run the game is to emphasize areas other than action. Make sure that the players come in with a solid character conception. Make sure they realize that they're playing a character who, while they _seem_ human, actually has far less 'free will' in some ways - that they are constrained by their particular nature in some respects. Angels aren't _made_ to do good deeds - by their nature, 'good' is what they want to do, what they do by default. Acting against that nature causes them to lose connection with themselves - hence Dissonance - and thus Fall. Demons (and I admit, playing demons sound shithouse and stupid to me, so I don't think about them as much) have a lot more 'free will' than angels, but are expected to enforce the will of Lucifer and their Prince, or be punished - dissonance is the punishment for failure. Get players to solidify their PCs aims and goals. 'Doing good' is too vague - construct a project or plan for the PC, in accordance with their Choir's nature and their Archangel's goals. In play, offer them chances to 'do good' outside that plan, so that they have to make choices about what they should do and they could do. For rules, start off by ignoring the bit about getting attunements from other choirs or other Archangels. Too confusing. Start with concept, choose Archangel, then choose Choir. Limit the amount of rules that a player has to learn. The Essence thing is important, to put some measure of restraint on the more powerful abilities, but ignore the whole 'noise' aspect for a while till people are comfortable. As for action/conflict - play up the 'Cold War' angle, rather than an 'armed conflict' angel. Make the demons charming, intelligent or interesting - not psychos (well, apart from Shedim). Lilim, Balseraphs and Impudites are probably the most 'likable' types. Try creating some 'opposite numbers' - a demon of the opposing Band for each (or at least some) of the PCs. Umm... look, I'd go into this more, but I'm late for work. From what I've gathered from your posts on FS-list, you're a very experienced 'Southern-style' GM (there's a very definite North/South style differnec in this country, I think), who knows what he's doing. Use your instincts. Feel free to mail me back if you want to discuss this further. Gotta go. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Thanksgiving's coming on the Fourth of July In the form of a girl with a needle in her mind Well she come from out west on a nickel-worth of gas Got her mind on her money and dope up her ass. BUTTHOLE SURFERS, "The Lord is a Monkey" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:12:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems At 11:35 AM +1000 4/21/97, Mark Grundy wrote: >I've run two games of In Nomine now -- a very straight investigation/get >the bad guy game to introduce the players to the game, and a curlier >intrigue game to explore the world and its influences more. > >What I'd hoped for from this game was: > >* support for playing beautiful stories about moral choices, the > grandeur and wonder of the world as it `really is'. >* diabolical plots, cunning betrayals and hidden hands. >* support for my players to explore what makes celestials tick. Well, I haven't read Feast of Blades (or Night Music), so I can't tell if there's "official" support for all of that yet... I would *hope* so... (I ...anticipte...? playing in FoB sometime...) >The two games we've run though, have been disappointing. The games felt >very different from the kind of story in the front of the book, and >I've come to wonder if this game could support long-term play with the >`look and feel' of the introductory story at all. It may depend on your group. Are they willing to go "in character" at the drop of a hat? Are *you* willing to tuck in some side-plots that you run one-on-one with some PCs? (I've been doing some "pre- game setup" (partly because we want to get that "special" mix of players!) with my character (Gray Lilim) interacting with some angels and minor plots -- and just plain talking to the various angels about theology, differences in the celestial planes ("You just leave your Hearts *lying around*? For anyone to mess with?" "Without permission, they'll protest. Sometimes we'll give them to a friend, so we can visit." "You can *touch* each other's Hearts? I've heard they *burn* people!" "Hm. Perhaps it's inherent in the discordancy of demons -- their own personal symphonies conflict." "Um. I wouldn't know. I don't have a Heart." "You don't? How do you travel to Hell?" "Push in the front gate with all the damned souls, usually. Unless I'm summoned by someone, or use a Tether."), etc.) >Has anyone else had these kinds of comments from IN players? > >* ``It feels like superheroes, only more constrictive.'' This may depend on the kinds of plots that you've run -- so far, you haven't run a really "Straight yet difficult" plot, right? I.e., "turn this person away from [x], but don't force him." Or "help this runaway get home, and figure out what needs to be done to make the family happy (divorce, counseling, a new job in the family, whatever), and make it so." No bad guys (necessarily), only a problem to solve that depends on emotional/moral issues... >* ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' I'd start them small, tell them, "Design a character for Superior [x]," and let them get the politics in small doses. >* ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' Hmph. Subtle. The word is *subtle*. *Alien*. >* ``The game system is too complicated.'' Don't make them learn it all at once -- do a lot of "describe while the GM rolls"? >* ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' Angels: what's *right*, what furthers humans living in harmony, with enough resources for all. Demons: what makes their Prince happy, what POs angels. >* ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' So import some. Heck, run a varient campaign, where you're doing In Nomine Pendragon... >* ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' I dunno -- are they? You're the GM. >* ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' Life is not simple. Let the GM handle things. >* ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' Only the ones for your Choir and Archangel. And not all the attunements for your Archangel -- only the ones that *you've* got. >* ``Why do characters take so long to generate?'' Because it's the first time you're doing them! Practice! >* ``Why should a celestial care which city he's in, or who he meets?'' Beats me. Possibly just because he's been told he's the celestial cop on this beat, and he'd better take care of his turf, and the people on it. Pick a city that people are familiar with, so they can play with landmarks. >* ``Do devils really have to go around parking badly?'' No, but they like to -- it promotes annoyance and selfishness among mortals, which ticks off angels. >* ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' Well, Seraphs can't stand lies, so they hate Balseraphs. And Shedim are just icky, while Habbalah are a little weird in the head. Aside from that... Why *should* they hate each other? It's *easy* to do that -- they're on opposite sides, and will come into conflict and hurt each other, but they don't have to *hate* each other. Lookit Nicole and Marcus. [...] >So, here are some questions: > >* What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM >sees > fit? Yup. However, Essence isn't a "reward" -- it's the "fatigue" (GURPS term) or "Gnosis" (Werewolf term, I think) or "Blood points" (Vamp term) used to control how much "cool stuff" of a certain type the PCs can do. You use Essence-expenditure to ensure that the PCs can't just Sing their way out of trouble any time they want. They can use their Resonances, but they have to be *clever* about those, mostly. Dissonance and discord are the universe's way of saying, "You have done something that is against your nature -- against *who and what you are*." You have twisted your *selfness* in the pursuit of your goals (or laziness or something). This *hurts* you, as much as striking off a hand to free yourself from a bear trap would hurt! Maybe it's the only way you see to get out of the trap, but it's still going to *HURT*. If your players are good enough, they'll suffer marvelously enough that you might not *have* to use dissonance or discord mechanics (though I think that those mechanics are more fun, myself). But it's like a game of cops and robbers -- "Got you!" "Did not!" "Did too!" If there were no game-mechanics reason to avoid Discord and Dissonance, then PCs wouldn't fear it as much, and even the best roleplayer would be tempted to get a little expedient from time to time... If you, the GM, want to impose dissonance when you think it's appropriate and they, the players, trust your impartiality enough to let you, then by all means, go for it. >Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) I thought you didn't want a Superheros game? >* The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each >other, > due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at times. They >argue > that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else run such a >game? Well, look at the pre-game I described above -- one Lilim who's not ready for Heaven, but none too fond of Hell. A few angel NPCs who are willing to harbor her (and try to gently convert her) for as long as they have her Geased word that she won't try to mess with their mortal charges they've been assigned to protect. My Lilim has some level 6 (!!) Geasa that can get called in at any time... She's pretty sure she won't be working for *certain* Princes (that's why they're level 6; bargained with Mom), but that doesn't mean she's going to get to work for the Demon Prince of Happy Happy Joy Joy... >* There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? It's complicated because complexity in a world makes it more interesting. In a totally different GURPS game, I just introduced a whole new sector full of a new government, new races, and new politics/situations. Because the old one didn't have enough complexity to suit me. It's on the other side of a stargate, though, which means the PCs don't have to deal with it all at once -- small doses will work. This is good, because I'm still making parts of it up!! >* What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or > self-agrandisement. That's because Demons do that, and Nicole's a Servitor of the Archangel of revenge... Check out the Cherub -- he's protecting (in a somewhat warped way) a human woman without knowing why! And trying to help out his fellow angel on the side... > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? Of *course* celestials can have ties with *anything* on the mundane world. Tell your players to pick three things that their character likes about staying on the corporeal plane. If they can't find even 3 things, then what are they doing there? Why aren't they still flunkies managing things in Heaven? >* Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. Psychotic? They're not always psychotic -- a lot of the time, they're just going around being grit that gets in the works of the Universe. (Except Shedim, and Shedim are icky.) They *are* generally arrogant (though often hiding it) and self-centered. They have some amount of enlightened self-interest (as in, if you don't work together, the angels kick you back to Hell, and then your Prince tears your Forces apart because you failed in the mission due to lack of cooperation), but they're pretty much every demon for himself in the long run. Have the *players* read either of the Dream intros? Have they made characters like the human servant/proto-soldier, or Marcus? Or have they made a bunch of Malakim? >* In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > (Too many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) Doing demons, were we? Or fighting them? If you think there are too many rolls of one sort of another, consider making the threshholds higher before a roll is needed -- if a mortal has a Will of 2 or less, don't bother rolling to impose your Demonic resonance on him, say. Or decide that all celestials with Perception above 6 can automatically succeed at their (perception-based) resonance with a check-digit of 1. In Nomine should be slightly cinematic; if the angels/demons have some auto-successes here and there, because they have a skill at a high enough level to make for "this is trivial, I don't want to roll for Intervention"... Then don't roll! What, you pick up the TV and the infernal forces of Hell smile upon you? Heck, even if you're working for Valefor, that doesn't mean anything... (Unless you want it to mean that you work quickly enough that you beat the cops out that you didn't know were on the way, and pass them racing in with lights flashing...) Intrepret rolls broadly and quickly where the story demands it (if you *must* play with a "story" and not just a situation where the PCs get to roleplay and problem solve and don't have any sort of set "this happens next, get to the next scene" plot to follow). Stay out of combat (especially early on, unless your players will just explode without it, since combat mechanisms always are nasty), and use the Basic Combat stuff. "Roll [mechanics in combat chapter] plus the level of your Fighting! Hit him? Good, what's the CD? Good. Now roll the target of your Dodge." [HINT!! ALWAYS WRITE DOWN *TARGET NUMBERS*, not just skill!] At 8:45 PM +0000 4/20/97, Bodhi wrote: >Check out the plot lines on the In Nomine Collection. (hi, Ms. McCoy) Howdy! Try: http://www.io.com/sjgames/in-nomine/archives -- SJG has kindly lent space to my unofficial pages. [...] >> * ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' >What motivates a human being? Different things for different people. > You need to define a character BEFORE you even open the book to >begin rolling it up. Or, for us Develop In Play sorts, as you're creating it. But you need a basic concept... (Concept: "I *love* Lilim, but it's too easy to do a Bright one, they're supposed to be rare. Hm. I don't want a demon-bound one, this is an angel game. What about a 'Gray' one, who is a little too selfish to get redeemed off the bat, but has had some reason to dislike the Princes... Freedom...she dislikes how Hell enslaves mortal souls, and figures that mortals might actually do better in Heaven, though she isn't sure. Wants to buy off her Geasa, doesn't want to work for some Princes (for game- issues, as well as moral ones). Why doesn't she want to work for these particular ones, what drove her away as the final straw? Maybe she had to work with a Shedite...destroying personal freedoms of mortals..." See how it develops?) (Or Concept: Bright Lilim of Creation... http://www.io.com/~wileyc/nomine/game.html -- look at Serah. I came up with the utterly cool character description *first* and had to do up the character to fit. About the first time I've ever done that... Basically, a Lilim goes Bright for two reasons: #1: she was feeling under-appreciated in her own Job (Singing/10 and she's stuck in a "band-singer" Role where it's more important that you look the look than have the skill and voice), and #2: she fell in love with an Archangel -- without knowing that's what he was. But man, is her demonic stage manager POed at her... No dissonance (yet), no discord, no signs that she's doing anything but getting herself a new servant (she was serving Nybbas), she was even being more enthusiastic at practice... and then *wham*, her Heart's shattered in Hell and she's apparently vanished and Nybbas is on the Impudite's case about losing his little proto-MTV star! WHAT HAPPENED???) >> * ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' >They don't necessarily. Some do, some don't. They're on opposite >sides, but not EVERY angel hates every demon. Think spies. Some >hate the "enemy", while some recognize that time heals all wounds, >and thus cultivate careful relationships with their "opposite >numbers", banking on the day when they might be working together >again. > >SNIP > >Okay. Here's my take on the subject. Morality games tend to be >either driven by player interest, or dead-boring! Bingo. If the players aren't creating characters who *care* about morality, ethics, "theology" of some kind, then what are you going to do with them? If all they care about is the next shoot-em-up, then yeah, it's going to feel like constrained superheros... >I've got another guy who knows every rule by heart! He's a great >rules lawyer. However, he is having trouble finding his purpose in >In Nomine, because he failed to develop a character in his mind >before he really rolled it up. Now that he's settled on a couple of >character-based obsessions and interests, he's coming along just >fine. Once I had it figured out in my head *why* my Gray Lilim was so down on Hell (a mission for Fate that she found seriously painful to complete...), her personality just started coming *alive* in my head. And this with just a few solo-sessions of just talking! The Bright Lilim, she turned into a personality and insisted on being written up... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:15:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems At 2:01 PM -0500 4/21/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Typo: In my previous post, under "Melancholy," the phrase >"tip the up" should have been "trip them up." Angel-tipping... Is that anything like cow-tipping? (Sometimes Typos are *good* things! ) emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:05:34 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle On a bit of a different note, for those of you with a taste for the slightly profane, is _Towing Jehovah_ by James Morrow. See, God dies and drops a two mile long corpse in the Atlantic, and the Vatican hires a super-tanker to tow it to the Arctic for preservation. Morrow is to Christianity as Rushdie is to Islam, but nobody in Christianity has the balls to put a contract out on him. (No offense to any Christians who _do_ have the balls to put a contract out on him. :) ) steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth McCoy [SMTP:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 2:27 PM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle > > Mmmmm! Book! :-d > > Devoured, reccomended. *Strongly* reccomended. God goes on vacation... > with no forwarding address. > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net > GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:16:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Phasekiel - Angel of Heresy At 9:13 PM +1000 4/21/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >Dear Elizabeth (and List) > >> Garak is one of my favorite characters... He's so... unrepenetant. > >When I see a Klingon run from a fight or a Ferenghi give a refund I'll start >to look for a Cardassian to repent. Oh, *that'll* be a cold day in the Pit...! >>>I have been working on a full write up for Phasekiel, but true to his nature >>>he is unhappy with the results of a single definitive version of his history >>>and abilities. >> >>Well, if you can ever pin him down to something he at least is amused >>by... > > By your command. BTW Phasekiel got a but funny when we got >to the bit about Summoning and the modifiers to it, so that bit may not be >as accurate. Otherwise here he is. A bit funny? I see... An Elohite with a sense of humor. How... Heretical. Thank you! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:46:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Q:About these Lillim At 1:50 PM -0500 4/21/97, Chad H. wrote: >We are having a problem concerning the fact that followers of Nybbas >automatically get a servant with a certain amount of points. My only >question is...how do you figure points if you want to buy up the level of >your servant. The same question applies to Lillim who get a bonus to >their role and status as well...how do you figure the cost to buy these >things up since technically the cost is Role*Status/2. Anybody know the >answer. Simple. Figure the cost of the automatic advantage (servant, Role, etc). Then figure the cost of the "improved" advantage (servant, Role, etc). Subtract the auto-cost from the improved-cost. Pay what's left. How's that? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:35:02 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:31:26 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >You don't get a chance to defeat Perception-based resonances, IIRC. >You get a chance to do so with Will-based ones. (So you can't stop >a Lilim from reading your Need in your eyes (unless you don't look >at her), but you *can* spend Essence when she tries to lay the Geas >on you. You can't stop a Seraph from reading the Truth (except by >saying nothing), but you *can* contest a Balseraph's attempt to >foist his own personal truth on you. You can't stop Elohim (or >Habbalah) from reading your emotions, but you *can* thrust a >Habbalite's twisted emotions back on it. Etc.) Taking the last example, a Habbalite would (apparently) evoke his resonance to sense emotion based on his Will even though he's sensing something, and p.56 seems to say all demon resonances are based on Will (except Lilim) and all Will resonances can be opposed. The problem with this is that if the angel can explicitly oppose the resonance, then demons can't sense without saying, "Hear I am! Kill me!" I feel it unbalances angel and demon powers. To further confuse matters, p.56 says, "A resonance, in itself, does not disturb the Symphony. If any Essense is spent to use the resonance, this /does/ disturb the Symphony and may be noticed by other celestials." This implies that if you don't use Essence, you cannot be detected, yet most resonances of demons are Will-based, even the sensing ones; and opposing the resonance if you can spend essence is noticing it, contradicting the previous. This also provides a way of distinguishing a demon from an angel before he disturbs the Symphony, much less does anything truly demonic. So I think I'm still not clear on demonic sensing resonances--and maybe a FAQ or Errata entry is needed. So, multiple choice question: When a non-Lilith demon uses a sensing resonance based on his Will: 1. It cannot be sensed or opposed; 2. It is opposed only by the implicit strength of the the subject; the subject doen't sense the resonance so he can't spend Essense to help resist the sensing; the GM will need to make the Will role for a PC so the player doesn't know something happened; 3. It is opposed as any other Will roll; the subject can spend Essence to resist the sensing resonance; and the subject will necessarily know something happened. In the case of (3) does the subject know what resonance is being attempted or does he just get told, "Make a Will roll"? Does he get a perception roll, which would at minimum tell him the direction? FWIW, (1) seems best. (2) is ok, but it's kind of a pain for the GM. I feel (3) is very unbalancing: you can't know what to do without percieving the situation, and (3) tips the demon's hand as soon as he tries to see if there's an angel in the vicinity. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #131 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.