From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 22 13:46:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07755; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:16:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28353 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:56:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:56:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199704221656.LAA28353@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #132 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 132 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed Re: IN> Why conceal? IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #131 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 Re: IN> Night Music Update and Jordi Question Re: IN> Inspired by The Saint Re: IN> In Nomine problems Re: IN> Remnants in My Campaign RE: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #122 IN> I will grant you three wishes... Re: IN> In Nomine problems IN> Beg, Plead, & Big, Big, Puppy Dog Eyes Re: IN> Jordi Question Re: IN> I will grant you three wishes... IN> Re: Djinn,Shedim &Kyriotaes Re: IN> I will grant you three wishes... Re: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:04:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems At 8:03 AM +1100 4/22/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > Demons (and I admit, playing demons sound >shithouse and stupid to me, so I don't think about them as much) have a >lot more 'free will' than angels, but are expected to enforce the will >of Lucifer and their Prince, or be punished - dissonance is the >punishment for failure. It's also the punishment for going against their diabolical nature -- which is, at root, fragile self-deception. If their little personal universe gets thrown out of whack (usually happens when they exert their Will on the bigger universe, and the rest of the Universe says, "No Deal" [I've been terming it "lashback"]), then they are literally *damaged* by it, as it tears at the roots of what they consider their Self to be. > For rules, start off by ignoring the bit about getting attunements >from other choirs or other Archangels. Too confusing. And too bloody rare anyway! You should *earn* those suckers... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:35:54 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance Mixed stuff of original posts, Bodhi's responses, and Ms. McCoy's additional comments... then Ms. McCoy wrote... > > Frankly, one of the *saddest* setups I can think of is if an Elohite > and Lilim got together and then the Lilim got hit with a Geasa that > demanded she work against him. He would have to work against her, > unabashedly, no holds barred, all information gleaned out of the > relationship used against her. She'd have to do the same, or become > dissonant. (And I don't know if Superiors can remove Geasa! Even if a > Lilim went bright, she might *still* have to fulfill the Geas, or > become Dissonant and Fall...) Both with agony in their souls, working > against each other, maybe even to kill each other... Serious tragedy. > > On the other hand, a Lilim might understand the Duty that drives an > Elohite (it's like being Geased to the Symphony's will) enough that, if > they both survived, they could get back together. Maybe. Now THIS is soap-opera stuff I could sink my teeth into! I like this idea! ... and personally, I'm SURE that any Lilim who can understand and empathize enough with an Elohite (emotional commitments always subserviant to Duty and Responsibility) is going to be forgiving enough to get back together afterwards. After all, she is absolutely subserviant to the same things, regarding her geasae (sp?) Hmmm... I never noticed how similar Elohites and Lilim are! Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com And the Creator said... "Fiat Lux" c=(lambda)(freq.) c=3.0 x 10^8 m/s e=mc^2 ... and he saw that it was Good. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:05:23 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 >>How would a Murcurain handle the lust Discord, and the Emote skill? > >A Mercurian? A Mercurian would seduce people happily... And Emote >delightfully how much they desired the target. Yea...mistake on my part...I meant an Elohim, not Mercurian. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:57:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed At 10:35 PM +0000 4/21/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:31:26 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>You don't get a chance to defeat Perception-based resonances, IIRC. >>You get a chance to do so with Will-based ones. (So you can't stop >>a Lilim from reading your Need in your eyes (unless you don't look >>at her), but you *can* spend Essence when she tries to lay the Geas >>on you. You can't stop a Seraph from reading the Truth (except by >>saying nothing), but you *can* contest a Balseraph's attempt to >>foist his own personal truth on you. You can't stop Elohim (or >>Habbalah) from reading your emotions, but you *can* thrust a >>Habbalite's twisted emotions back on it. Etc.) > >Taking the last example, a Habbalite would (apparently) evoke his >resonance to sense emotion based on his Will even though he's sensing >something, That's what's said (sort of), but I might make one use Perception to sense emotion, and Will to impose it. Or Will to just impose an emotion without sensing anything first. They're psycho "angels," they probably can earn that specialness. >and p.56 seems to say all demon resonances are based on >Will (except Lilim) and all Will resonances can be opposed. The >problem with this is that if the angel can explicitly oppose the >resonance, then demons can't sense without saying, "Hear I am! Kill >me!" I feel it unbalances angel and demon powers. I think Habbalah are a "special case" in that regard... If a Band has the ability to "sense" something, I'd say that the Band uses Perception for that, and Will to impose it. I don't *think* that anyone besides Habbalah and Lilim use Perception- type resonances at all... A Balseraph can't tell if anyone's lying to them anymore (which is why they're all so paranoid?); a Shedite never did need that Perception as much as Will; Impudites Charm and Drain, not detect relationships; Calabim destroy, not move. >To further confuse matters, p.56 says, "A resonance, in itself, does >not disturb the Symphony. If any Essense is spent to use the >resonance, this /does/ disturb the Symphony and may be noticed by >other celestials." This implies that if you don't use Essence, you >cannot be detected, yet most resonances of demons are Will-based, even >the sensing ones; and opposing the resonance if you can spend essence >is noticing it, contradicting the previous. Call it a sudden feeling of "something is eating at my Will!" -- the celestial instinctively *can* fight back with Essence expenditure. If he wants to call attention to "Look! I just spent Essence deliberately here! I'm something more than mortal!" On the other hand, make it even more subtle -- let them use Essence to resist a Seduction attempt, or a Fast-Talk one... Or any other mundane skill that has a Will resistance. Cloud the issue. >This also provides a way >of distinguishing a demon from an angel before he disturbs the >Symphony, much less does anything truly demonic. Hrm? I'm not sure I follow you here. I'll let Karakash or Derek answer the multiple guess question. ;-) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:42:11 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Why conceal? At 02:48 PM 4/21/97 +2, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >> Angels, for their part, seem to generally seek to guide man to make a >> choice in the destiny they could attain. Simply showing up and saying 'I'm >> an angel, there's a God, now lets get to work.' would shatter the ability >> of man to uplift himself by faith. By the same token, if demons popped up >> it would probably scare the good (and bad) folks of earth into the arms of >> Heaven. Of course they can't have that. > >IMO, _knowing_ there is a God wouldn't necessarily destroy all >of the faith: one still has to believe the God is _God_, the >almighty creator. I do not think faith means simply a faith in >existence, IMO it has to be faith in powers too. And if demons >showed themselves to humans, the effect doesn't need to be so >dramatic: after all, they are not necessarily the rotten >completely evil type. After all evil is highly subjective thing. For starters, if a Malakite shows up and tells you to believe in God, you WILL. No choice involved. Demons don't pop up because of protection; the Malakim enjoy killing demons, and if they can find one.... Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:21:26 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #131 >>> I'll work on the errata to that one... Ought to have >>>it when I get the Creation view on things put up. >>> >>>Thanks. I hadn't been aware that Vapula'd been infiltrating. >> >>VAPULA? WHO SAID ANY... YES. THAT'S RIGHT. VAPULA. CERTAINLY. >> >>-DominicNet. Keeping Heaven safe from Heresy. > >Gotta watch out for those Lilim "cracker" sorts. WE WATCH. AND WAIT. WE ARE VERY PATIENT. - -DominicNet. Keeping Heaven safe from Heresy. > I'm sure SJG wouldn't sink so low. They'd only do books >for Archangel/Demon Prince opposed pairings, not one book per >Superior... (Or AA/DP "similar" pairings, or something.) And >I'm sure that they'd do the same with the Choir/Band books -- one >for Seraphim/Balseraphs, etc. Except it would be one for Kyriotates >(or maybe two, you know how those guys are) all to themselves... > >O;> That's better..... but it's *still* 21 books..... ;) - -Rogue, He Who Does Not Give Exact Change ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:17:02 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 On Apr 21, 12:13pm, Walter Milliken wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 > >Speaking of GenCon, I'm going to be trying to make it this year (no > >guarantees). Is anyone going to be putting on a game of In Nomine? If so, > >I'd love to sign up! > > I doubt that anyone put in In Nomine games in the schedule, because the > GM cutoff date was well before IN hit the stores. On the other hand, I > suspect SJG will be running demo (if not demon...) games at least. > > Perhaps someone could organize a pickup game there. (Not me! I'm > running 4 GURPS games already. Assuming they're accepted, which I > expect....) I fully expect to be running something (something that would've been run at DragonCon grrr.....) involving In Nomine. Perhaps with a co-GM, perhaps not. If I do, it will be displayed prominently in the SJG booth. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:14:31 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed > > You don't get a chance to defeat Perception-based resonances, IIRC. > You get a chance to do so with Will-based ones. (So you can't stop > a Lilim from reading your Need in your eyes (unless you don't look > at her), but you *can* spend Essence when she tries to lay the Geas > on you. You can't stop a Seraph from reading the Truth (except by > saying nothing), but you *can* contest a Balseraph's attempt to > foist his own personal truth on you. You can't stop Elohim (or > Habbalah) from reading your emotions, but you *can* thrust a > Habbalite's twisted emotions back on it. Etc.) I couldn't have said it better myself. Will-Resonances are an _imposition_ that can be resisted. Perception-resonances is just a Celestial noticing that you've got something written in bold letters all over your face (from their point of view). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:12:24 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:57:52 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >I think Habbalah are a "special case" in that regard... If a Band >has the ability to "sense" something, I'd say that the Band uses >Perception for that, and Will to impose it. I >don't *think* that anyone besides Habbalah and Lilim use Perception- >type resonances at all... A Balseraph can't tell if anyone's lying >to them anymore (which is why they're all so paranoid?); a Shedite >never did need that Perception as much as Will; Impudites Charm >and Drain, not detect relationships; Calabim destroy, not move. Djinn use their resonances to attune just like Cherubim. And speaking of Attunements, I can't find any special rules for them, so I assume they are essentially special case Resonances, and follow Resonance rules, basing on Perception for Angels and Lilim and Will for other Demons (unless otherwise noted as for Kyrios). If so, any number of Demon Attunements are sensory--for instance, several of Baal's Attunements are arguably sensory. (I'm using "sensory" because I think part of the problem is that perception is used sometimes in the sense of the number and sometimes in the sense of sensing.) If Angels can get all their Attunements through Perception, while Demons use some through Will and some through Perception, it's a significant disadvantage for the Demons, it seems. And many angelic Resonances and Attunements are every bit as active and offensive as demonic Resonances and Atttunements. I guess it all works if *all* Resonances are through Perception if sensory and through Will if offensive, the difference in resonance mechanics between angels and demons disappearing. This would mean a major Errata for page 56. >>To further confuse matters, p.56 says, "A resonance, in itself, does >>not disturb the Symphony. If any Essense is spent to use the >>resonance, this /does/ disturb the Symphony and may be noticed by >>other celestials." This implies that if you don't use Essence, you >>cannot be detected, yet most resonances of demons are Will-based, even >>the sensing ones; and opposing the resonance if you can spend essence >>is noticing it, contradicting the previous. > >Call it a sudden feeling of "something is eating at my Will!" -- the >celestial instinctively *can* fight back with Essence expenditure. If >he wants to call attention to "Look! I just spent Essence deliberately >here! I'm something more than mortal!" If the demon is using Perception, presumably the angel couldn't sense it and wouldn't get a Will roll. If the angel did get a Will roll against a sensory Resonance or Attunement, not only do demons have to split points between Will and Perception to use their Resonances, not only do they reveal themselves, but angels also get defense rolls that demons don't. Too unbalancing IMHO. >On the other hand, make it even more subtle -- let them use Essence >to resist a Seduction attempt, or a Fast-Talk one... Or any other >mundane skill that has a Will resistance. Cloud the issue. Sure. Page 46 sidebar (topbar). >>This also provides a way >>of distinguishing a demon from an angel before he disturbs the >>Symphony, much less does anything truly demonic. > >Hrm? I'm not sure I follow you here. A demon's sensing Resonance or Attunement (by the book) would trigger a Will roll, revealing themselves. An angel's sensing Resonance or Attunement would *not* trigger a Will roll, so the angel isn't revealed. So, if it triggers a Will roll, it's a demon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:31:42 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 > >On the topic, has it occured to anyone else how much spinoff this game could > >produce? If SJG ever sank so low as to take the T$R approach (not that I > >think they would).... lessee.... a "Complete Guide To" every Choir/Band > >makes 14 books.... one for each Superior makes 27 more.... the mind boggles. > > > >-Rogue, He Who Has Not The Money For 41 More Books > > I'm sure SJG wouldn't sink so low. They'd only do books > for Archangel/Demon Prince opposed pairings, not one book per > Superior... (Or AA/DP "similar" pairings, or something.) And > I'm sure that they'd do the same with the Choir/Band books -- one > for Seraphim/Balseraphs, etc. Except it would be one for Kyriotates > (or maybe two, you know how those guys are) all to themselves... You are quite right in your faith, Elizabeth! From the master schedule here which Cannot Be Released in Detail Lest Hideous Creatures Come and Tear My Eyes Out, each of the upcoming releases (except for two exceptions) have a _minimum_ of four superiors plus a whole lot of other stuff. Unless the schedule gets revised dramatically, expect most of the supplements to be similar to 'Night Music'. Some superiors, details on some part of the symphony, expanded or new rules on a variety of subjects, and an adventure. Maybe not ALL of that EVERY time, but pretty close. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:24:01 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Night Music Update and Jordi Question > > I know that John K, our excellent netrep, has already stepped in with his > version of an answer, but here's what I'd intended when I wrote this. > > Technically, there'd be no disturbance. So why wouldn't every group of > angels have a servant of Jordi hanging around to do their dirty work for > them? Well, Jordi doesn't get along that well with the destructive > Archangels; he's more likely to be hanging with the Eli/Novalis crowd, who > wouldn't be taking advantage of their natures just to avoid the > repercussions of dicking with God's creation. After all, it is God's > creation you're dicking with, and there's a reason your actions have > repercussions. > > Anyway, I can't imagine a servant of Jordi would be messing with dynamite > in the first place. After all, they disdain all such matters. Humanity, its > trappings and its constructions are beneath them. They're primal forces of > nature, and while some of them may have weasel vessels, they still wouldn't > stoop to game weaseling. In other words, all you GMs out there can give them Dissonance if you like for going against their natures. ;) Hmmmmm... I meant that as a joke, but that might be the proper answer (or _a_ proper answer). The Dissonance rules were specifically put in as both an important game element, and as a game-balancing device. If you, as the GM, decide that someone is acting against their natures (or that of their Archangel), feel free to warn them and then give the Dissonance if they don't take the hint. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:00:40 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Inspired by The Saint On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:46:02 +1100 "Patrick O'Duffy" wrote: > > I'm _reallll_ dubious on The Saint. The trailers look bloody awful, > and my memory of the books (never saw the TV show) is cringing... > -- > Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia > > Here's a plug for The Saint. Suspension of Disbelief is a requirement for this film. I found it to have a nice James Bond flavor what with the toys and sexual tension and all. Plus, this this is perhaps one of the least violent action films I've seen with the movie still havinga lot of action. He's like the old Batman, he doesn't kill his foes. Plus, the element of love in this movie was very touching. Your mother might even like it. :) Simon Templar's reluctance to kill does smack of celestial nature... Perry M Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems Howdy! On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Bodhi wrote: > Hmmm... now THIS I find interesting. There are some people on this > list (myself being one...) who've posted quite a few adventure seeds. > Mr. Newquist and Ms. McCoy have collected all of our adventure ideas > at > > http://www.io.com/sjgames/in-nomine/articles/ > > These adventures should provide MUCH insight into the types of games > people have been modelling their gameplay after. I seem to recall > there are about 20 different adventures posted there. This should be > a significant indication of the styles of various In Nomine sessions, > no? You bet. When I mentioned a lack of adventures, I was of course referring to published SJ Games adventures. Not everyone has access to the Web . Most people's exposure to a game is often limited to what is on their local store's shelf. This list and the Website that you mention are nice resources, but not everyone knows about/can get to them. Laterish! Ken PS Maybe one of these days I can get Web access.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:07:18 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Remnants in My Campaign A comment on: > * How did they come to be where they are? It is initially thought that > they are Remnants, but Remnants don't have hearts. Based on the RPG "Immortal: The Shadow War (?)", I've been developing this idea as well. Basically, under these ideas it's possible for celestials to 'forget' who they were, essentially becoming mortal. They merge with the Symphony, but lose all the powers, attunements and dissonance characteristics that make them celestial. If they got killed they would wake up next to their hearts in heaven (just because they forgot doesn't mean their superiors did) SEVERELY traumatised (it's a shock to discover 1: You're dead and 2: you're not human). Slowly, over the course of the game, I was going to have these characters experience events, meet people etc. that reminded them of the past. Eventually they would emerge as full celestials, but their views on the way things are may have a definite human slant. I would hope that some of them would take to their celestial nature whole-heartedly, while others would try to cling to humanity, regretful that they now had to manipulate those they once thought of as friends. That's my opinion, anyway. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:58:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: RE: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle Greetings! On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Steven Feldon wrote: > On a bit of a different note, for those of you with a taste for the > slightly profane, is _Towing Jehovah_ by James Morrow. See, God dies > and drops a two mile long corpse in the Atlantic, and the Vatican hires > a super-tanker to tow it to the Arctic for preservation. Geez... :) The _Jehovah Contract_ by Victor Koman is neat. In the near future, a famous Televangelist hires an assassin to kill.... you guessed it. Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 97 01:18:16 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #122 >Patrick O'Duffy: > Hmmm.... > It all seems a bit contrived, Moriah. I mean, it reads well, but >players might get annoyed with being led through a series of seemingly- >pointless adventures, and then finding out at the end that they were >being had all along. > > (I know I said I'd start saying nicer things soon. Sorry. I'm >actually a very pleasant chap in real life, believe it or not.) Tough being a pawn, eh? ;> But just remember, the players can't blame the GM, it's all Eli's fault for jerking them around. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: IN> I will grant you three wishes... In a message dated 97-04-21 13:45:46 EDT, Brian Emford wrote: << Is it just me or has anyone noticed that the majority of the big questions about the game stem from those do-gooder Angels? >> Mostly from the angels, but okay, I have a demon question. Regarding Djinn, I quote the following paragraph on page 143. "Unlike a Cherub, who gains dissonance when the object of his attunement is hurt, the Djinn could care less about what happens to a pattern to which he's attuned...but he can"t bring himself to cause it harm by his own hand. The only exception is when a person to whom the Djinn is attuned asks the demon to do something. In this case the ensueing mayhem doesn't generate dissonance in the demon." Call me thick, but I'm not quite sure I get that. Is that... A) The demon could care less if you get hurt. He cannot attack you himself. But if you ask a favor then he CAN attack you? (perhaps because it ticks him off?) or B)The demon could care less if you get hurt. He cannot attack you himself. But if you ask him to do something that results in your harm then it doesn't create dissonance. (EG the old D&D efreet who will do your bidding but will try to pervert the intent of your requests...) There. You now have a demon questions. Questions about In Nomine I have. I'm even getting close to having ansers but I've just a little ways to go yet. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:38:33 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems In reply to: Demons (and I admit, playing demons sound > shithouse and stupid to me, so I don't think about them as much) have a > lot more 'free will' than angels, but are expected to enforce the will > of Lucifer and their Prince, or be punished - dissonance is the > punishment for failure. Think long and hard about that one. Demons may seem (on the surface) to have much more free will, but that's because they're goals are selfish, so it seems that they are pleasing themselves most of the time. However, a demon has to constantly worry that they're not treading on anyone's toes who is more powerful than they are, that they are furthering the goals of their master, and that they're not getting too powerful and worrying their master who may suddenly have them killed! Many a demon has disappeared unexpectantly for getting a little too close to the boss. Angels on the other hand, generally try to do 'good', but they have more freedom of action, because their Archangels are not likely to kill them if they get powerful, and generally don't get too annoyed if the servant doesn't do something exactly right, as long as the goal was achieved. The average demon who doesn't do something exactly the way the master wanted, but who gets better results, had better pray (pardon the pun) that the Demon Prince is 1) smart enough to realise that their goals were furthered without following the plan to the letter; and 2) humble enough not to kill the servant for thinking of it first. That's a pretty tall order. Leath. (why do all my posts seem to end up long?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:28:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: IN> Beg, Plead, & Big, Big, Puppy Dog Eyes Just got my copy of Pyramid#24 at long last! It was delayed 'cause our distributors are moving, so my local hobby shop had to wait. It looks pretty cool though and I'm way happy with the support for In Nomine thus far. However- "Hell Has Frozen Over" mentions the Pyramid #9 article "A Man of Wealth and Taste"- and that's one of the very few issues that I can't get. So I was wondering, could SJG be persuaded to post the article somewhere for the folks who missed it the first time around? - -Calabim@aol.com (who knew he should've played an impudite instead) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:13:01 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Question Dear Derek, John, Elizabeth, Rogue, Q and List At 10:24 PM 21/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Derek Wrote >> I know that John K, our excellent netrep, has already stepped in with his >> version of an answer, but here's what I'd intended when I wrote this. >> >> Technically, there'd be no disturbance. **Snip for Brevity** >> Anyway, I can't imagine a servant of Jordi would be messing with dynamite >> in the first place. **Snip for Brevity** >John Wrote > In other words, all you GMs out there can give them >Dissonance if you like for going against their natures. ;) >Hmmmmm... I meant that as a joke, but that might be the proper >answer (or _a_ proper answer). that was about where I was. So it is sort of a Super Role, you have to stay in character, but that is not a stretch cause Jordanians actually like being animals, so much so that they get Dissonance for acting against that nature. To continue the errr rorting the previously mentioned Malikim, we'll call him Wolf, instead of blowing up the bridge he follows the bus to the logging camp and watches it. When the camp goes to sleep he sneaks in, not hard for a Wolf, and with some effort bites and claws the petrol cap off the loggers bulldozer ( or bus or whatever). Then Wolf goes around, gets a lighted stick from a campfire and pushes it into the top of the bulldozer's fuel tank. Disturbance? Dissonance? The point being can the Servitor use his greater than human intelligence and knowledge of civilisation to work against civilisation without Dissonance? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:47:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> I will grant you three wishes... > "Unlike a Cherub, who gains dissonance when the object of his attunement is > hurt, the Djinn could care less about what happens to a pattern to which he's > attuned...but he can"t bring himself to cause it harm by his own hand. The > only exception is when a person to whom the Djinn is attuned asks the demon > to do something. In this case the ensueing mayhem doesn't generate dissonance > in the demon." > B)The demon could care less if you get hurt. He cannot attack you himself. > But if you ask him to do something that results in your harm then it doesn't > create dissonance. (EG the old D&D efreet who will do your bidding but will > try to pervert the intent of your requests...) It's B. The Djinn were so named because Derek thought that their behavior mathced what he wanted for the fallen Cherubim. And, as a matter of clarification- I'm sure that Derek didn't take this from D&D, but instead from the same source as D&D, arabian myths. > -Calabim@aol.com Oops da Ogre, now if they'd been named "Kender"... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:47:43 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> Re: Djinn,Shedim &Kyriotaes On Apr 20, 8:00pm, Katrina, divine feline wrote: > Subject: Djinn,Shedim &Kyriotaes > Hello again, John, a couple more questions. > Why do Shedim and Kyriotates need to have Corporeal Forces? Wouldn't > they just use the ones of the host they're in? Same question for > Corporeal characteristics. The possessor is not limited to the stats of the vessel they are in. Ever hear of cases of demonic possession where the person seemed supernaturally strong? The exact rules for this may change in the near future to balance this somewhat. > Also, the section on Dissonance for Djinn is confusing (paragraph 3 on > page 143). Please explain. The Djinn cannot directly harm the object of his attunement. If said object asks the Djinn to do something, the object might be injured or killed as a result of carrying out that request. The request does _not_ force the Djinn to do anything, though! Example time: Bob (the attuned object) is on a bus. Gralmur the Djinn cannot explode the bomb on the bus. Phooey. Bob asks Gralmur to kill Betty. Gralmur maneuvers Betty so that she is on the bus with Bob. Boom. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:32:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> I will grant you three wishes... > Oops da Ogre, now if they'd been named "Kender"... > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! That is _-=*BEYOND*=-_ Sadistic... we should keep those little beasties out of the serene and involved climate of IN... I guess we could use them in H*ll to torture the newbies, but... Nononononono we shan't let them in... they can all go to Heaven for all we care...>:-7 err... not that I have ANYTHING against the klepto-DM-destroyers... Brian Emord Balseraph Under-Sergeant to the Assistant sub-representative of the Secretary to the Human Resources Director of Malphas - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:54:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> _Hell on High_, by Holly Lisle On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Mmmmm! Book! :-d > > Devoured, reccomended. *Strongly* reccomended. God goes on vacation... > with no forwarding address. > Is this a follow up to "Sympothy for the Devil", and "The Devil and Dan Cooley"? Shadowcat %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "God invented whiskey so the Irish wouldn't rule the world. " ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:27:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 At 7:05 PM -0500 4/21/97, Grim88 wrote: >>>How would a Murcurain handle the lust Discord, and the Emote skill? >> >>A Mercurian? A Mercurian would seduce people happily... And Emote >>delightfully how much they desired the target. > >Yea...mistake on my part...I meant an Elohim, not Mercurian. An Elohite with Lust would probably be hitting dissonance right and left, unless s/he could get hirself into a situation where it was *appropriate* (working in a brothel, say, and counseling everyone else?) to go to bed with people! Emote is no problem, so long as it's not being used for selfish purposes. An Elohite can Emote any emotion (even one s/he is feeling!) s/he wishes (or Emote lack of emotion; more common?), so long as... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:10:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance At 5:35 PM +0000 4/21/97, Bodhi wrote: >Mixed stuff of original posts, Bodhi's responses, and Ms. McCoy's >additional comments... then Ms. McCoy wrote... > >> >> Frankly, one of the *saddest* setups I can think of is if an Elohite >> and Lilim got together and then the Lilim got hit with a Geasa that >> demanded she work against him. He would have to work against her, >> unabashedly, no holds barred, all information gleaned out of the >> relationship used against her. She'd have to do the same, or become >> dissonant. (And I don't know if Superiors can remove Geasa! Even if a >> Lilim went bright, she might *still* have to fulfill the Geas, or >> become Dissonant and Fall...) Both with agony in their souls, working >> against each other, maybe even to kill each other... Serious tragedy. >> >> On the other hand, a Lilim might understand the Duty that drives an >> Elohite (it's like being Geased to the Symphony's will) enough that, if >> they both survived, they could get back together. Maybe. > >Now THIS is soap-opera stuff I could sink my teeth into! I like this >idea! Shall I put it as an adventure seed on the INC? (Which is being moved around and I need to ask Kira if the new machine is stable enough for people to access...) It would *really* work out if you happened to have players who just did it, but if either or both were NPC, there are still some opportunities for dilemmas. (They're on the "opposing team" and get to see the pain that these two have fighting each other... While, nevertheless, they go all-out.) >... and personally, I'm SURE that any Lilim who can understand and >empathize enough with an Elohite (emotional commitments always >subserviant to Duty and Responsibility) is going to be forgiving >enough to get back together afterwards. After all, she is absolutely >subserviant to the same things, regarding her geasae (sp?) There is that. There's a chance -- though it might take a little while. Especialy if there were still Geasa on her! >Hmmm... I never noticed how similar Elohites and Lilim are! More-so than any other Choir/Band, really. They have to do things that they may not *want* to do because it's Right/because their Geas was invoked. The others have restrictions on what they *can* do -- don't lie, don't let your attuned person/object get hurt, don't sit still, don't hurt anyone else... Malakim are close, but they probably couldn't "accidently" get emotionally attached to a demon in the first place, not plausibly. To get the soap opera there, you'd need a Malakite and a *Bright* Lilim -- who still owed a Geas in dark places. (She's not evil -- she's just fulfilling the Geas, lest the dissonance cause her Fall. She doesn't fall under the "suffer not an evil to live" clause.) I got praise from *Bodhi*! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #132 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.