From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 14 21:15:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA13132 for ; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:15:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA31790 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 14 May 1997 20:15:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:15:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199705150115.UAA31790@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #170 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 170 In this digest: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement Re: IN> Sharing Roles Re: IN> Superiors... IN> Developing Roles Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement Re: IN> Superiors... Re: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement Re: IN> Malakim Honour Re: IN> Superiors... IN> Redemption and Abyss IN> What happens to an outcast when they die? Re: IN> Sharing Roles Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Re: IN> Redemption and Abyss Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Archangel of haling - Raphael Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Developing Roles Re: IN> Sharing Roles Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music Re: IN> In Nomine Mood & IN> Archangles. Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Sharing Roles Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Celestial Population Density Re: IN> Malakim Honour ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:51:31 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement All right, they can add their Corp forces to the power of any object they pick up. So a weapon with a power +4 (such as a sword) used by such an angel with 4 corp forces becomes a power +8 weapon, correct? - - Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:53:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Roles On establishing Roles: The book says nothing about how you get various levels of Roles. Since I'd think it *would* say something about having to execute an actual childhood (which reduces to Incarnating, if the emulation goes all the way back to the maternity ward), I tend to suppose that the level of Role reflects how much effort went into faking your background. A level 6 Role certainly implies you've been at it for some time, I think. You've lived for several years in the same place or at least among the same circle of people, so even if no one knows you well, many people do know you. Furthermore, should one of them take it into their heads to check up on you, they will find a faked paper trail of more-than-human verisimilitude, right back to records inserted in "home town" files in the town hall, doctors' offices, schools, etc. Even pictures of your youthful "self" inserted in every edition of the high-school year book. If someone starts looking for eye-witnesses who remember you as a kid, even a level 6 might start to wobble, but it could be protected by planting imposters who allege to remember you, etc. And where does this paper trail come from? Nothing in the book about that, either. Maybe an archangel waves its magic want. Maybe the character had to go to all the trouble of laying the paper trail themselves. Maybe the character's archangel has a staff that of other angels dedicated to insertion jobs and Role design. I think the last two are more likely, and also provide interesting hooks for espionage-type adventures. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:00:05 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Superiors... > If a superior falls or becomes bright, do his followers suddenly > lose all their superior based attunements? How do they (the followers) > compensate for the loss? I realize this is similar to the Eli dilema, but > he didn't fall, he isn't still a visable figure in the War... Well, just > something that came up at a game once... Here's my shot-in-the-dark response: That AA/DP's Servitors are kind of screwed -- at least, in the short term. Unless the followers Fall with him (voluntarily?), they're going to have to lose the Servitor attunements. They wouldn't exactly be Outcasts, but they'd be without a Superior, and it's probably in their best interests to sign on with a new one -- that kind of "starting over" is probably the only way to compensate for the loss. It's sort of like an employee getting into financial difficulties because his employer's gone out of business... it's not exactly fair, but it happens. Now, if the Superior isn't an AA/DP, but rather a "middle manager" who reports to one, chances are that the AA/DP would find another spot in his heirarchy for that Falled/Redeemed angel's Servitors... they'd lose the attunements of that angel, but keep the ones relating to the AA/DP. - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:46:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Developing Roles On Wed, 14 May 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > Which leads me to another question -- how are Roles established, anyway? > Especially the higher level ones. IF I have a Level 6 Role, my human life > is as real as any in the Symphony, right? Does this mean I have a family? > Friends who've known me for years, even for a Celestial freshly on Earth? > To establish a High-level Role, does one have to go through childhood et > cetera in a Vessel? ("Oh, isn't Joan such a sweet angel..." "My Bobby is a > perfect demon...") Hmm. I answered a similar question a month or so ago. Maybe its worth expanding on: Roles A Celestial role is a measure of how deeply enmeshed she is within human society. The level of the role determines how "well established" her credentials are, and how much scrutiny the Celestial can withstand. Level 1 (Very Shallow): The Celestial has all the basic credentials of her role: driver's liscence, credit cards, etc. Unfortunately, if anyone actually *checked* the liscence, they would discover that it was not registered with the DMV, despite the fact that it appears to be authentic in every other way. The Celestial has a job, but is little more than a name on the books. Level 2 (Shallow): Basic credentials would be properly registered, but some details might not check out (e.g. the address to which it is registered is not where the angel lives). Deeper credentials - like birth certificates or life insurance - would be very spotty or non-existent. The Celestial drops in on her job occassionally, and people there vaguely know who she is. Level 3 (Average): The details of basic credentials would check out. More intimate papers, (birth certificates, social security records) would still have irregularities. The Celestial's co-worker recognize her and are familiar with her, but she has no intimate relationships with them. This is about the level of "cover" you might expect from a well established spy. Level 4 (Deep): All the paper work would be fine, including detailed stuff like social security records. The angels is a regular part of her work place, and has solid relations with her co-workers. She has something of a social network outside of work. Her only real weakness is her "past". If for example, someone went and talk to people who supposedly went to the same high school as the Celestial, they would not remember her. Level 5 (Very Deep): Only the deepest investigation will reveal that there are irregularities in the Celestial's life. People from her past will remember her, but there may be inconsistencies in their testimony that might arouse suspicion. Level 6 (Almost Perfect): The Celestial's background appears to be completely normal to anything less than superhuman scrutiny. Developing Roles Level 1 and 2 Roles can be developed quickly with nothing more than creative bureaucratic work. Both sides have a stable of such off the rack roles they can hand out if need be. Roles at this level can be made to order as well. Level 3 and 4 Roles take detailed work on papers, and a few months to a year of work on the part of the Celestial, actually "living out" her role. This is the typical role level of established Celestials that have a particular mission in a given city. Lower level roles can develop to this point given time. Both sides have a number of pre-made roles at this level on stand-by at key locations; the basic details are of the role are maintained by Soldiers or human allies. Level 5 and 6 Roles take huge amounts of effort to develop, and are comparatively rare. It is conceivable that a being with the power of an Archangel or a Demon Prince could create such a role out of whole cloth, but the massive Disturbance to the Symphony would make the role practically useless. To get this level of role, *someone* has to have lived the mortal life in question. Very often, that someone must be the Celestial who is undertaking the role. The Celestial must be born, grow up, live and die. At level 5 there were a number of points where the Celestial took little vacations for up to a month or two at a time from the tedium of youth, others (like Soldiers) covering for her absence. At level 6, the Celestial did her absolute best to life as normal life as much as possible. High level roles are not ready-made. It is conceivable that another Celestial could "hand off" such a role, but this is very unlikely. It is usually easier to put the right Celestial into the role in the first place. The only other way high level roles can be created is by taking over the life of a human. Heaven sometimes manages this through the noble sacrifice of Soldiers (who are given new identities), or by replacing a human who died an untimely death. Hell can be a little more ruthless, and is not above killing and replacing a human if it is important enough. Roles require a certain amount of mystical attunement as well in order to work probably. This attunement applies to the Celestial directly, linking them to the Symphony. Once done, the attunement is easier to re-establish. That's why it is easier for Celestial's to replace a role as opposed to getting their first one. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:56:43 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... Shadowcat wrote: > And Bastet has a small following of humans, but HOW MANY > FELINES > ARE THERE IN THE WORLD??? > > Shadowcat last priest of Bast (as far as I know.) > ********************************************************** > ********************* > " I've met many thinkers & many cats, but wisdom of cats is far > superior" I'd make a snide remark about cats, but it's not really on topic... Actually, an adventure seed would be rather easy for the "pagan" gods. After all, even if they are scattered in the Marches with no real power, perhaps there are angels _and_ demons interested in assisting them (for whatever reason) and others interested in scourging them entirely... or perhaps Lilith gathers Geasa from them, working to increase their influence, then she calls in her favors... make for an interesting wildcard. Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:59:32 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement TSRInc@aol.com wrote: > All right, they can add their Corp forces to the > power of any object they pick up. So a weapon > with a power +4 (such as a sword) used by such an > angel with 4 corp forces becomes a power +8 weapon, > correct? > > - Sean Ummm... maybe you mean different choir/superior... Eli's Malakin can use anything as a weapon, "with Power equal to the check digit of a successful Perception roll, for the length of a single combat." Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:48:45 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: Re: IN> Superiors... Brian Emord wrote: > I have a little question about superiors (AA/DP): > > If a superior falls or becomes bright, do his followers > suddenly > lose all their superior based attunements? How do they (the followers) > > compensate for the loss? I realize this is similar to the Eli dilema, > but > he didn't fall, he isn't still a visable figure in the War... Well, > just > something that came up at a game once... > I'd say that, should a Superior fall, God steps in and raises the highest Servitor of whatever Word and makes that angel Archangel, or the demons squabble amongst themselves to attain Prince ranking. Perhaps the Seraphim Council does the selection for angels. Maybe demons need political clout to get on top of the heap. Could make for an interesting plot, although it most certainly would shake up the hierarchies... ("Saminga's done WHAT?!?") Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:07:48 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Eli choir attunement On Wed, 14 May 1997 10:51:31 -0400 (EDT), TSRInc@aol.com wrote: >All right, they can add their Corp forces to the >power of any object they pick up. So a weapon >with a power +4 (such as a sword) used by such an >angel with 4 corp forces becomes a power +8 weapon, >correct? It's the check digit of a perception roll, not corporeal forces. IMHO, since it works off perception, I'd take it as meaning they perceive the weapon suitability of anything around them. A sword would still be power +4, but they might notice an exceptional pointy stick that they could improvise into a +6 weapon. OTOH, if they're in an empty room, nothing is available to improvise into a weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:07:39 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Honour On Wed, 14 May 1997 17:49:04 +1000 (EST), Peter Frederick wrote: >Another thing about Malakim, how pervasive is their conviction that everyone >follows their personal Code of Honour, as stated on page 100. Note also on that page, "...all the Malakim demand from their servants and their peers is discipline and respect." No mention of adhering to their stardard of honor. Malakim'd like them to, but they don't get dissonance from them not doing so. >Example. Characters have been tracking some badguys and have found their >base. They gather to plan their attack. "Who can get us weapons?" asks one >character. "I can" says the Malakim and everyone goes on to other things. >Night of the assault turns up and the group assembles and are offered a >selection of fine swords and axes. Every one looks at the Malakim who >exclaims slightly hurt and surprised "What you don't use guns do you??" I presume this would be a Malakite of David. First, while Malakim get dissonance from dishonor, getting dissonance from another source isn't necessarily dishonorable. And while he "expects" that others will behave with his exact code of honor, he's not stupid and may know they won't. Specific oaths aside, the Malakite is honor-bound to fight as effectively as possible on the side of Heaven. Not being stupid, he knows others use ranged weapons and knows that they would expect ranged weapons to be understood in the term, "weapons." If he were honor-bound to not assist in the use of ranged weapons, he should be specific and say he can get hand- to-hand weapons, but ranged weapons will have to be gotten by someone else. If he's honor-bound to do everything possible to stop ranged weapon use, he should tell the others that and suggest he be left out if they're to be used. The key here is that Malakim are weasel-detectors. They cannot weasel their way into keeping their oaths: they have to do it the hard way, up front and honest. Hm. Maybe weasel doesn't have the same implications down under. Your team is your mates. You have a strong moral obligation to help them in any way possible. Looking for technical ways to not satisfy that moral obligation is weaseling, and a person who does it is a weasel. i think there's an Aussie word for this, but it isn't coming to mind. >Would a Malakim who had an oath against seeking medical aid before a combat >was finished not realise he should assist an ally. "You wanted me to do what??" I would take that oath as restricting only him to keep to the fight. For others, I think it would be ok if he could do something to get them medical aid while not disengaging himself from the battle, such as yelling, "Someone call paramedics!" If the oath applied to others, it would be disregarding his comrades, a selfish act; I'd disallow the oath in those terms. >Thanking you for your indugence. Welcoming you for your interesting questions, mate. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:23:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Superiors... General observation: The effect on servitor attunements of a superior's fall or rise depends on whether these attunements are things the superior does FOR the servitor (in which case they go away when the superior goes away) or things the superior does TO the servitor (in which case they stay when they superior goes away). My general impression was that attunements were alterations done to the servitor by the superior -- software upgrades, so to speak. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:28:22 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tapio Erola Subject: IN> Redemption and Abyss A new subscriber to the list, I bought the game just today. (I've been reading archives for few hours.) I just thought about two counterparting celestials for your campaigns. These are rought drafts, but anyway... Alita, Elohim Master of Divine Knowledge, Angel of Redemption (Ok, the name is stolen. Any better ideas?) One of the most trusted servants of Yves, she personally handles the most cases of Demons redeeming themselves. (They come and chat to her and she guides them to suitable ArchAngel.) Corporeal Manifestation: A brown-haired, somewhat pretty woman in white business-suit. She fairly radiates trustworthiness and desire to help. The quintessential Counselor (in legal and spiritual sense.) And her counterpart.... Abaddon, Habbalah Baron of the Book of Days, 'Angel of Abyss' (The name suits excellently. Especially the Habbalah part of seeing themselves as angels...) An counterpart and fierce enemy of Angel of Redemption. He is just the person tempting outcasts, glorying the service to suitable demon prince and helping fallen to meet their fate in their service. He appears as the quintessential smooth operator, with that demonic, seductive smile. He wears black suit (Armani, of course) and black tie. He _reeks_ of dark camaraderie. Opinions? - -- Tapio Erola "Live and learn. And learn so that txr@paju.oulu.fi you can keep on living." -Jonah Matthieson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 97 13:03:12 PDT From: Christopher Paul Subject: IN> What happens to an outcast when they die? Curious: What happens to an outcast when their last vessel dies? Is that it? Are the over with a capital 'O'? If they can't ascend to Heaven, can they get to their heart "the hard way" or not? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:55:01 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Roles >Which leads me to another question -- how are Roles established, >anyway? Hmm - I'd say it might be a thing that Relievers, Imps, and Gremlins do, as part of the work to becoming a full Celestial. That would only work if it is possible to create an exact duplicate of a (destroyed) vessel with a role and have it take on the role seamlessly, or (and I like this feel better) if vessels can, with the proper rites, be given to another celestial. In addition to simply maintaining the role, the spirit would be supporting the Word of their superior in their own minor way. >Then, when a bad man takes a knife to Jennifer, Jonny the Servitor of >Haagenti, watching from afar, discovers that Jen's friend Jill has the >Smite attunement...) Interesting idea...(might also be a good way for a long-sighted Lilim to build a power base - "I'll trade you my Joe Montana rookie...") ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:27:22 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... >>> Can a celestial cause disturbance while Ethereal/Dream Walking? >> >> I'd say no unless something was damaged in the process. > >Ah, but what is damage? Is causing a nightmare (moving a human from >one side of the Marches to the other, for example) damage? Can you >damage a dream? How many ethereal hits does it take... :) Ethereal hits don't disturb the symphony in any significant way. This is canon: pg 55. >> I'm still iffy about whether crashing a computer is 'harming' >>it for the purpose of Disturbance. I'm leaning toward no at the >>moment. Not to try to cheese my way out of an answer, but this may >>very well be a GM's call. What's being destroyed? Information. >>How much Body does information have? ;) >> > Or should Information have soul hits... Well, only if its Deep >Blue I guess... (I know, the servitors of Kobal were fooling with >the chess computer, that's why it won...) I'd say that almost *any* action by an angel causes Disturbance, but for the most part the disturbance from a computer virus is more of a thematic disturbance rather than a single note disturbance, and is thus both harder to distinguish (it isn't jarring) and harder to isolate (finding one source of the Disturbance is hard). Think of it as conducting part of the symphony a different way as opposed to truely playing it - it may be possible to find the conductor as the problem, but it's not nearly as easy as the player. As for Kasparov vs Deep(er) Blue: Kasparov said that "...for one moment, it stopped playing like a computer, and played like a god..." - maybe Jean had a hand in it. Why would Kobal? I'd think Vapula and maybe Nybbas, as perpetrators of the fear/dependance relationship most humans have with technology, might be involved, too, but I doubt Kobal would find it all that funny (except maybe for Kasparov's storming off...). ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:43:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Redemption and Abyss On Wed, 14 May 1997, Tapio Erola wrote: > Alita, Elohim Master of Divine Knowledge, Angel of Redemption > (Ok, the name is stolen. Any better ideas?) > Abaddon, Habbalah Baron of the Book of Days, 'Angel of Abyss' > (The name suits excellently. Especially the Habbalah part of > seeing themselves as angels...) Both of them sound quite interesting. If you do a more detailed write-up on them, I'll archive them both. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 97 18:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances > I find the idea >of earth assigned celestials being posted ayt strategic locations as >'lookouts' highly unlikely. Full demons and angels are probably wasted this way, true, but what about imps, gremlins, and relievers? Maybe it's good experience for them.... On the other hand, most of these won't have remarkable Perception scores. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of haling - Raphael Raphael was also responsible for pursuing an archdemon across the globe before imprisoning him... BTW, Michael originally had the Word of Healing in addition to that of War. With the rise of a new AA of Healing, one wonders what Michael's true feelings are... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:10:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... In a message dated 14.5.97 07:24:59, you write: << Mimes are exempted from this. They are not part of the symphony :) >> Mimes are a product of Hell, pure and simple... Long live the Olive Loaf Vigilantes! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:01:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality In a message dated 13.5.97 20:23:06, you write: << It's just a very common, very old idea in modern fantasy literature. Terry Pratchett uses it a lot in his "Discworld" series, and I recall Fritz Leiber applied it to the gods of Nehwon >> As a matter of fact, the idea harks back to Celetic and Pre-Celtic faiths, where the concept that 'Faith Lends Substance' was absolute canon. There is an interesting illustration of this principle as the guiding background to the reworking of the Paedur the Bard legends in a fantasy format, if you want to check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:18:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Developing Roles While we're on the subkect, I offer for your edification one of my players who doesn't HAVE a role, and deliberately chose not to. His opinion: Roles are nothing but trouble. If you don't exist, you don't exist - at all. Sad as it may seem, many people DO slip through the cracks; in essence, he has a 'non-role' as one of these. Unlike a Role, it can't be proved or disproved. (This may work better in Britain, than America; it may be only my perception, but I've heard the US has a more intricate paper trail than we do). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:13:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Roles In a message dated 14.5.97 14:35:23, you write: << Which leads me to another question -- how are Roles established, anyway? Especially the higher level ones. IF I have a Level 6 Role, my human life is as real as any in the Symphony, right? Does this mean I have a family? Friends who've known me for years, even for a Celestial freshly on Earth? >> My opinion, as I was recently tasked on this by my players, is Yes. As soon as your Role is brought into existence, it has ALWAYS been in existence - as far as it is possible to tell. This includes school photos, old friends, the works (presuming your role is high enough). Lesser-level roles start losing the corroborating evidence, if you like, of their existence. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:15:03 +1000 From: Mark Grundy Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality | On Tue, 13 May 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: | > There is a great danger for an angel on earth to miss the | > forest for the trees. The energy humans can give is secondary | > to the human soul itself (and the whole world on top of that). An | > angel who forgets that humans are important in and of themselves | > rather than for the energy they can give, is perilously close to | > Falling. Paul wrote: | Ah, but a demon would say that Heaven is just as concerned with the | "trees" as Hell is. That the whole point of elevating humanity is so | that Heaven can collect as many souls, and their energy, as possible. | They may dress it up in pretty terms like "Salvation", but in the end, | Heaven is playing the same game as Hell from a slightly different angle. | Since no one *really* know what's going on in the upper reaches of Heaven | where human souls go, the demons could even be right... In my account, the Symphony is a unity. That's sufficient reason to want to fight for humanity (and everything else) to be in harmonious union. There are angels that fight to protect the beauty of gardens, the majesty of animals, just as there are angels to fight for the protection of a human soul. This confirms that the moral and aesthetic dimensions are more important than any energy matters -- and when you consider that the Symphony is directly or indirectly the source of all matter and energy, and is potentially boundless anyway, this makes good sense. My demons would agree with Paul though. They like to cast a utilitarian slant on everything, since they're no longer able to appreciate symphonic beauty. They no longer believe in boundless anything, except frustration; thus they're confined to a world of limited resources and spiritual rationalism, which dicates how they conduct their conflict. Cheers, Mark - -- Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 Education Co-ordinator, Fax: +61-6-249 0010 CRC for Advanced Computational Systems, The Australian National University, Web: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Mark.Grun dy 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:40:27 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music >Novalis - The theme from Barney. > Aquarius -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:40:14 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mood & >> Ill post when I get the page ready for review, and maybe the kind >>McCoy can give it a home when people are satisfied. > >[snip] I think I'll ask some techinical questions about >FTPing it straight to that folder, though, rather than having it >go through my own mailbox! > No sense of adventure.... -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:56:11 -0400 From: corey@cfanet.com Subject: IN> Archangles. I do not wish to offend anyone but a good deal of the Archangels posted here are like little molds. For example a Archangel that I shall leave unnamed fits perfectly in a small mold of healing. The attunements do not even include malakim! On the grounds that they do not even have much concern for human healing. This is not true at all! There whole job is to heal, well at least in there minds. Even punching a person could be healing, as it can change there frame of mind with right and wrong. Which is healing on a high level. At least in there eyes. The other attunements assume that all healing is damage. For the Seraphim, "...They can add there celestial forces to there celestial healing spell..." In this case something that might have worked better would be for a special power of 'counseling', or to be able to calm a human out of a rage. Making her peaceful and held together, unable to fight. This could even transfer over to using it on demons! I do not mean to attack this atunement in particular, or even this Archangel. I just think that people could make a good deal better work if they used a little more abstract views on the subject. A good example is Gabriel, the Archangel of Fire. Fire! Think of it. What a small fraction of a word at face value, but with a little creative genius she becomes one of the best. Another example is The Archangel of The Sword... At any rate I have to go off now. If any of you have any flames to send my please send them to my private E-mail: corey@cfanet.com instead of this forum. If you feel the need to do it public try to make it tasteful so as not to contribute to the SPAM. -I hope I didn't burn you. corey@cfanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:40:05 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances >>>>Putting aside the point that GMs are omniscient in their own worlds, ok. :) >>> >>I think that Paul's assuming that the GM hasn't decided to create every >>single Celestial in the countryside. > > Is such a thing possible? ;) > I know it comes as somewhat of a shock.... >>Trying to figure out the chance of a high perception Celestial is withing >>range of an event involves some pretty hairy and subjective calculations. > >My thinking is generally that unless the disturbance gets to the level >where high perception lookouts hear it, the chances of a wandering >celestial hearing it are virtually nil. IOW, unless there's a story reason >for an enemy celestial to be in the vicinity, the GM doesn't have an excuse >to drop a random enemy in. > Who says it has to be an enemy? And who says that the enemy takes any immediate action? I see it more as a hook for future subplots. It also randomizes the risk of using essense. One way to account for the number of high Celestial Forces Celestials is to assume that there are 1/10 as many CelF 4 Celestials as there are CelF 3 Celestials etc. Thus: Celestial Forces Number of Celectials 1 10 2 100 3 1000 4 100 5 10 6 1 What do you think? >>>Celestial Forces 1 2 3 4 5 6 >>>Perception Adj. -4 -2 0 +2 +4 +6 >> >>I wish you'd gone into fractions. How else will I know how many birds it >>will take for my Ky., with a Celestial Forces of 5, to cover an area. > >Well, if you saw my earlier table of par and basic ranges, you can work it >out for any level of disturbance you want to detect. > I know, I was just beign lazy. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:36:31 +1000 From: Mark Grundy Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Roles Kirt writes: | Which leads me to another question -- how are Roles established, anyway? | Especially the higher level ones. IF I have a Level 6 Role, my human life | is as real as any in the Symphony, right? Does this mean I have a family? | Friends who've known me for years, even for a Celestial freshly on Earth? | To establish a High-level Role, does one have to go through childhood et | cetera in a Vessel? ("Oh, isn't Joan such a sweet angel..." "My Bobby is a | perfect demon...") There are a few ways you could play it: 1 have celestials live their roles from childhood 2 have angels take over the lives of people who are on the verge of destruction anyway 3 have lesser celestials spend time fabricating credible roles for later use by greater celestials 4 utterly change the fabric of reality (the Twilight Zone approach) Method 1 gives you a world where celestial roles are positioned strategically against future need... They have roles that last for 60-80 years before having to `reincarnate'. It's not possible to create a credible role in response to any short-term threat this way. With Method 2, you can either take over the body near death, or else switch an identical vessel for the original. To guarantee authenticity you need access to the history and mannerisms of the original subject -- which means either intensive study or some absorption process. Are there spirits of Destiny who hang around doomed people, scribing notes against future celestial need for their roles? Or do the doomed souls cooperate and transfer memories and habits? Or are they wrested from souls without their consent? Does the plane of dream have any part in this process? Method 3 is really a wrinkle on method 1 -- but instead of committing your best celestials to 3 years of dirty nappies and wailing, you get a reliever to do this stuff instead. You make a swap later on, as the role begins to be useful. I included method 4 for completeness, but I can't see a sensible way of doing it. If reality is so volatile, then it takes the edge off the moral issues, and raises the question of why symphonic disturbances are such a problem. Maybe you could use this method in a dark campaign, though. - -- Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 Education Co-ordinator, Fax: +61-6-249 0010 CRC for Advanced Computational Systems, The Australian National University, Web: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Mark.Grun dy 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:32:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... At 3:53 PM -0500 5/13/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Somehow, I think Eris and Lilith are too much alike to get along. "If you don't like war and stuff, then why don't you just stop?" "The world is what you make of it." Hm. Maybe they're actually the same entity now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:05:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Population Density At 12:58 PM -0400 5/13/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>It would vary; a good rule of thumb would be probably one per 100000, >depending on importance of the city, evenly split between up and down<<< > > >I disagree that it would be evenly split; Hell has always gone for quantity >over quality, which means there will usually be more demons than angels. And some of those (if not many) will be 7-Forcers, like the group from the GM screen adventure (at least I got to look at the *picture*...). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:59:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Honour At 12:30 PM +1000 5/13/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >Dear List > >I was considering a plot the other day when a question came to me. Does the >honour of a Malakim extend at all beyong their personal oaths? > >Example. Bob, a Malakim of Michael, has the two standard oaths, "not suffer >evil to live" and "no surrender to the forces of Darkness", as well as his >own "never abandon a fellow warrior" and "follow all orders to the letter". >He is sent to Earth with orders to stop a mixed group of renegade demons and >outcast angels from killing an archbishop.[...] >Recalling his orders Bob shoot the Archbishop, stopping the demon from >killing him, and then finishes the demon off for good measure. If the ArchBishop was an honorable soul, then Bob is toasties (or will be when Michael gets hold of him), and should feel bad about it. He should also probably feel a little bad about the innocent bystanders, but if it was unavoidable, then he will probably shrug and go on, or work on his skills so he doesn't take out people accidentily. If the ArchBishop was dishonorable, then Bob is in the clear there. If he toasted any particularly honorable (or bright-Destinied!) innocent bystanders, then *someone* will be there to pound on him. Eventually, if he's not careful, a Cherub of somebody (maybe even War!) will show up with fire shooting from his nose, saying, "You...Sideswiped... My...Attuned! Prepare to vanish into the Symphony!!!" >Additionally do Malakim oaths have to relate just to combat, or is "aid the >weak and helpess" a reasonable oath? I would think it were, especially with some of the more peaceful Superiors, such as Novalis. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #170 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.