From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 27 19:21:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23638 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 19:21:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22282 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 May 1997 18:34:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:34:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199705272334.SAA22282@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #184 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 184 In this digest: IN> Jadis errata IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #183 IN> Celestial Breeding Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question IN> RE: Celestial breeding IN> The Characteristic of Perception Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Re: IN> Too much intervention? [none] Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:51:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Jadis errata There was a pronounced error in my recent Superior data on Jadis, which I didn't realize until I'd already sent it out to the list. Change two of the Band Attunements to read as follows: Habbalah - A Habbalite of Winter may induce emptiness without automatically gaining dissonance, though he is still subject to dissonance from absorbing its backlash, and to the risk of redemption on the dissonance roll. Impudites - An Impudite of Jadis adds his Ethereal Forces to any Resonance attempt made in the presence of ice, snow, or other frozen water within (total Forces) feet. That's all. Oh, and Jadis is probably © the estate of C.S. Lewis. Austin George "So I'll understand if she doesn't appear on the INC pages" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:54:08 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #183 [mass Interventions] >My calculation of the odds of a single one is 1 in 216; what about the >odds of pulling five in one session??? > >ODie... Welcome to the club, Odie. One of my players, a Malakite Of Michael, had tsomething similar. Three Intereventions HIMSELF in one fight. You're right about the odds being 1 in 216, for one type of Intervention. The odds of hitting one of either type are 2 in 216, of course. But I think han Solo said it best: "Never tell me the odds!" BTW, if anyone's curious, that Malakite became our first full-scale player casualty. He accepted a Celestial duel with a demon four forces higher than him and got ripped apart. It's a tradition with my group to burn the sheets of fallen characters. Normally, my group isn't big on roleplaying at all. A fallen character is nothing, just roll up a new one. But In Nomine has changed that- players actually *cared* that Joseph Of War had died. It may sound silly, but we sang 'Amazing Grace' while his sheet went up. His fellows have already petitioned Michael for permission to track down and rip apart the demon that did that. It's great actually seeing some *real* role-playing! - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:49:02 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial Breeding >>>Are all the angels the same ones that were created before the universe, because that would raise many question about why the PCs are so weak if they have been around for 15 billion years.<<< Some celestials may have been around for aeons, others are recent creations. The chronological age of a celestial is not necessarily an indication of his power; you may be thousands and thousands of years old, but if all you've been doing until now is sitting in Heaven singing praises to God, or doing Dominic's filing, or toiling in Hell cleaning test tubes for Vapula, then you haven't been accumulating Essence and growing more powerful. Thus, "beginning" characters can be ancient in mortal terms, but still fledglings as far as more worldly celestials are concerned. I let players decide whether their PC is a newly-created celestial, or one who's been around since before the Fall, but it's always assumed that they've only recently been promoted to Earth-duty. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question I originally wrote: >> A very honorable Celestial might willingly *accept* a Geas in such a >> situation, as a way of discharging the Debt, but they might also put >> qualifiers onto it, thus increasing the level of the Geas. "Nothing that >> causes me dissonance or goes directly against my superior" certainly seems >> like a good qualifier, and I'd rule it as imposing an extra level of Geas. >> If she punted the Perception roll earlier, though, she's just SOL on >> *forcing* a Geas onto him, though, I'd say. And His Mightiness John Karakesh replied: > I'm not sure if 'qualified' Geasa even exist. This removes >the delicious sense of _not knowing_ what you will be asked to do >and thereby cheapens the drama that a Lilim (or anyone) might be >drawn in to by conflicting responsibilities. Oh, I'm sure that they do exist... they're the ones you take as an Ethereal Discord, that you can't weasel out of just by having a high Will. After all, there are *surely* Geasa out there that didn't come from some effort of a Lilim, and the description of them seems to imply that they can be taken on with a specific goal in mind. You don't get much more "qualified" than that. A cunning Lilim might well trade in one of her "general, non-specified" Geasa for a more rigidly defined one that was of a higher level. Example follows: Jane Lilim establishes a Geas/2 over Bill Cherub by successful use of her resonance and fulfilling a minor Need. No restrictions so far on what she can ask of him, as long as the GM rules it OK for a Geas/2. She asks, with GM approval, for him to intentionally misdirect angels pursuing her for 24 hours, so that she can get out of town and hide. Bill really doesn't want to do this, and instead offers to take care of getting her out of town himself, completely avoiding all the other angels he knows about, and he promises to never tell anyone what he knows about how she got away. (As if he'd *ever* want anyone to know about his complicity in the deed!!!) Bill would much rather just have his angel friends say "We couldn't find you Tuesday" rather than "Why did you lie to us about which way you saw that Lilim go?". Jane would *much* rather have the Cherub actively aiding her. It would *obviously* be a much more difficult task, and one that would involve more work on Bill's part, so it would probably count as a higher Geas level... I'd call it either Geas/3 or Geas/4, depending on the amount of effort required to smuggle Jane out, and just how hard the other angels are looking for her. Jane would also probably love the idea of having a potential blackmail tool over an angel, but Bill might be willing to accept the potential risk to avoid the *certainty* of getting caught if she goes through with the initial Geas. After all, he *might* be able to come up with a cover story for his not beign around on Tuesday that nobody will question... but he's taken one small step towards Falling. Maybe he'll be OK in the future, and completely avoid any other circumstance where Jane could ever get another Geas on him... and maybe he *won't*, or *can't*. A celestial might be willing to accept a Geas under certain circumstances, too, as a way to *show* that he recognizes just how much someone else has aided him. If Jane Lilim goes Renegade, and happens to save the life of someone crucial to the plans of a Servitor of Laurence, he might well feel honor-bound to offer to perform a limited task for her, especially if everything he'd planned would have come crashing down in flames without her aid. *That* would be where I'd put in the restrictions like "Doesn't cause me dissonance...", and if she's not subtle enough to come up with ways to *still* possibly corrupt him, even *with* those qualifiers, then she ought to turn in her Lilim union card. One example: "Search the waterfront tonight, and kill any demons you find there. However, you may *not* go near the First City Bank until daylight..." Look at how the drug lords wormed their way into many Latin American police and military forces, if you need more examples. Michael There are two secrets to success: 1. Never tell everything you know. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:59:50 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question Just a quick comment on 'Qualified Geasa'. John Karakash said that he wasn't sure that they even existed, but I'd just like to point out that his own PBEM game has a lilim with qualified geasa. Elizabeth McCoy's Lilim states in her character profile that she has level 6 geases to Lilith (instead of level 3) on the proviso that they wouldn't be traded to certain Demon Princes. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:33:03 +0100 From: Niall Teasdale Subject: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Two questions: 1. In the "God" sidebar, it implies that God created the world through some kind of "Big Bang" type mechanism. How do you get the Garden of Eden, etc., to fit in to that kind of cosmology? i.e. What is the origin of the In Nomine universe? 2. While you can dismiss a lot of pantheistic religions as Ethereal Spirits, there are some that still have significant numbers of followers, e.g. Hinduism. How do Hindus fit into IN? Looking forward to hearing some interesting answers, Niall. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:31:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions Niall asks two questions: First, how does IN cosmology line up with concensus science, which the IN book appears to accept? -- Pending a canonical answer, a GM can *make* an alignment in several ways by borrowing material from existing religious thought. Contrary to the simplistic impression one can get from the media, there are a wide variety of religious positions on how to reconcile the Genesis account with mainstream science. One of the commonest is to assume that the "days" of Genesis 1 are not 24-hour days, but rather indefinitely long ages. (This is bolstered by the facts that the sun doesn't appear until the 4th "day" and that, early in Genesis 2, the whole creation account is referred to as one "day.") As to how the Garden of Eden relates to evolutionary theory, there are again many options. Aside from making Adam and Eve metaphorical figures (no fun for role-playing, especially with Lilith knocking about your cast of characters), all these options entail a super- natural interruption in the evolution of natural hominids. Examples: 1) God "created Adam from the dust" by having the dust evolve into life, ultimately into hominids, and then endowed one particular hominid with a "rational soul," i.e. a soul capable of communing with God and understanding values such as true and false, right and wrong. The "Abraham" Scenario. 2) Same as above, only the transformation is physical as well as mental. More dramatic. The "Narnia" Scenario. 3) Same as either of the above, only the hominid is raised from the dead (and having been dead, was "dust" if you wait long enough after the first demise). The "Christ" Scenario. Recently, a Catholic bishop made the interesting suggestion that Adam lived so long ago as to be a member of some earlier species. Rambling a little further, I have heard two interesting suggestions about the locations of the Garden and the Flood. One is that the Garden was in the Mediterranean basin, which has been dry a number of times, and flooded a number of times, depending on whether Gibraltar is a strait or an isthmus. This goes with Adam and Eve being pre- Homo-sapiens, since the last such flooding (presumably the Flood of Noah) was quite a long time ago. The other place is in the Persian Gulf, which used to be lower, when the Ice Ages were upon us. This is easier to fit with the Tigris and Euphrates being mentioned as flowing through the Garden, and lets you make events more recent. Having Adam, Eve, and their descendents be the same biological species as spiritually non-human hominids opens interesting possibilities and at least lets you give a non-incestuous answer to where Cain got his wife. The second question was What about Hinduism in IN? Niall remarks that Ethereality seems unlikely because there are so many Hindus. I don't think Ethereality has any connection to popularity. It is possible that Hinduism, like materialism, is just plain wrong in the IN universe. If that makes you uncomfortable, you can amuse yourself by trying to match archangels to various Hindu gods, and saying that the distinction between pantheism and monotheism is one of Those Questions that even angels don't have a clear answer to. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:28:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The White Witch as Superior Lilim is a good band for Jadis, not only because of her geas-laying habit, but because, in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," the beaver describes her as not really human at all, but descended on one side from Lilith and on the other from "the Jinns and the Giants." Djinn and Grigori? Jadis, however, does not appear to be a direct creation of Lilith. In "The Magician's Nephew," she is described as having a family, and so appears to belong to a non-human race of some kind, native to (or at least ruling) the world of Charn. So there is scope for still more complication if anyone wants to try integrating the world of IN with the world of Narnia (which includes our Earth as well as the worlds of Narnia an Charn, and the possibility of as many more worlds as you please). I was once involved in a project by Iron Crown to produce role-playing materials set in Narnia, by the way, but the project foundered on the conflicting demands of the various parties who hold copyright on Narnia. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:15:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question On Tue, 27 May 1997, Leathal Weapon wrote: > Just a quick comment on 'Qualified Geasa'. John Karakash said that he > wasn't sure that they even existed, but I'd just like to point out > that his own PBEM game has a lilim with qualified geasa. Elizabeth > McCoy's Lilim states in her character profile that she has level 6 > geases to Lilith (instead of level 3) on the proviso that they > wouldn't be traded to certain Demon Princes. I think what Karakash meant (and I agree with this) is that the geasa *itself* cannot be qualified. The circumstances around a geasa can be negotiated like any other contract. A Lilim can say to an geased angel "Do this for me" and the angel can say "I'd rather not do that. If you ask me to do that, I'll resist. On the other hand, I can do this." The Lilim then has the option of changing her request. Furthermore, the geasa can have some negotiated restrictions such as "Don't trade this geasa away," and those restrictions can even be backed up with additional geasa. Remember, a Lilim can always geas herself to make her keep a promise. However, the restriction are negotiated and no more binding than a human contract. The geasa itself has two attributes: a favor owed (a) by a particular being at (b) a particular level. Within those two restrictions, the Lilim in question can ask *anything*. Once the geasa has been invoked, the victim has two choices: resist and risk dissonance, or obey. I think most Lilim are willing to dicker with a victim to reach something mutually agreeable before the geasa is finally invoked. That way there is less risk of Dissonance for all parties involved. Furthermore, when a Lilim first gains a geasa on an Angel or Demon, she might be convinced to "self-geas" herself to put additional restrictions on the geasa (most commonly of the "do not trade" variety). None of it really binding, though. The Lilim can always break her word when invoking the geasa; she can even violate the self-geased restrictions, although doing so will cause her Dissonance. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Durall Subject: IN> RE: Celestial breeding Actually, I've made the Grigori, the Children of the Grigori and the Nephilim the focus of my campaign. Research material has come from Gustav Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels" (mentioned in the sourcebook as an indespensible reference- I've found more than fourty names of Grigori and/or Nephilim in it), Storm Constantine's Grigori trilogy of fantasy/horror novels and the reference book "Angels A to Z," along with the Books of Enoch and Elizabeth Clare Prophet's books about fallen angels and Enoch. I've described the five tribes of the Children of the Grigori (the Zamzumim, Emim, Gibborium, Anakim and the Rephaim- all from sources named above) and identified the twelve members of the Council of Watchers and their roles. All this, and the Nephilim! I'd post it to the list, but I'm trying to polish it up for submission to SJG, Pyramid, or another magazine and don't want to release it to a public forum and then expect to sell it. Should all those avenues fail, expect to see the info here (assuming my players aren't looking!). _________ Jason Durall triton@seanet.com jason.durall@milliman.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:10:15 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: IN> The Characteristic of Perception PG 35 "Perception is a rating of how well a characters processes his sensory imput in all three realms, as well as how sensitive he is to the fluctuations of the Symphony at large." My question is this, if a human has 5 forces, 2 of which happen to be Celestial,and he has a Will of 4 and a perception of 4, would he perceive the symphony as well as a celestial with 3 celestial forces, 8 of which are Will and 4 of which are Perception? Perry M. Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:08:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Questions: Cosmology and pantheistic religions On Tue, 27 May 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > The second question was What about Hinduism in IN? > > Niall remarks that Ethereality seems unlikely because there are so many > Hindus. I don't think Ethereality has any connection to popularity. > It is possible that Hinduism, like materialism, is just plain wrong in > the IN universe. I must say, something about that statement rubs me the wrong way. In the In Nomine universe, Zeus exists. Thor exists. Amaterasu exists. Eris exists. Shiva exists. It's just that they all live on the Etherial plane, not the Celestial. And why do they live there? Well, in part because Uriel drove them there. Were they just Etherial spirits before that? Dominic et al say yes, but the old gods claim otherwise - they say that once, all the pantheons, Heaven included, were on a more or less equal footing, until Heaven gained an advantage and managed to persecute the others to near-oblivion, which would imply that at that time, either Heaven was Etherial too, or the other pantheons had realms that were Celestial or some now-vanished equivalent. Who's correct? Ultimately, I think, that's a matter for individual GMs to decide. It's not likely to matter much unless the PCs are actively investigating the old gods for one reason or another - although, if you put them in the right setting (India for Hinduism, Japan for Shinto, etc.) it's bound to come up sooner or later. And then again, it's doubtless possible to devote an entire campaign to matters dealing with the pagan gods and just what the *real* history is... > If that makes you uncomfortable, you can amuse yourself by trying to > match archangels to various Hindu gods, and saying that the distinction > between pantheism and monotheism is one of Those Questions that even > angels don't have a clear answer to. The think is, of course, that once we start doing that, we ultimately end up with no non-Heavenly/Infernal gods at all - it's possible to do a mapping (albeit not necessarily a *good* mapping) between just about any set of powerful immortal beings. ("Okay, so Jean is Zeus, and Thor, and Susano-O-Mikoto, and... who was the Hindu god of storms and lightning, again? Get me that dictionary of mythology...") Of course, this might be just the thing for some campaigns - it's just something to watch out for. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:37:17 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Too much intervention? > My calculation of the odds of a single one is 1 in 216; what about the > odds of pulling five in one session??? The odds for _any_ intervention is 2 in 216. The other calculation is impossible to determine without knowing exactly how many rolls were made during the combat (and whether you want exactly 4 and 1, or any 5, or at least 5 of any sort, etc). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:49:30 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] question: if a celestial reaches 0 celestial forces he becomes a remnant. Does this mean he has a will and perceoption of zero? is there no way a human can take celestial damage? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:47:17 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question On May 27, 3:59pm, Leathal Weapon wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question > Just a quick comment on 'Qualified Geasa'. John Karakash said that he > wasn't sure that they even existed, but I'd just like to point out > that his own PBEM game has a lilim with qualified geasa. Elizabeth > McCoy's Lilim states in her character profile that she has level 6 > geases to Lilith (instead of level 3) on the proviso that they > wouldn't be traded to certain Demon Princes. The Geasa themselves aren't qualified: Lilith made a _promise_ not to trade them away. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:41:34 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > >Remember that even _Kyriotates_ aren't considered exactly normal and > >rational. ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Normal, no - their multiplicity is definately unique. I would argue otherwise on the rational part; there's nothing in the rules that makes any > indication of that. If anything, the Ofanim seem to be the most > irrational, followed by the Malakim (if you see them that way). p.101 "...Kyriotates have given up on 4/4 time altogether... ... they are also the most fundamentally alien..." p.102 "...and wildly irrational in their reasoning." - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:58:47 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Question John wrote: > The Geasa themselves aren't qualified: Lilith made a > _promise_ not to trade them away. ;) Which in essence qualifies them. Saying "I'll change these geasa to level 6 IF YOU promise not to trade them" is qualifying them. If Elizabeth's character (Serah) had 9 level 3 Geasa and then had an additional Geas because she owed Lilith for not trading them, then that would be unqualified. But by making the Geasa more powerful on the condition that something didn't happen, they've been qualified. Whether the Geasa were qualified or not, it comes down to the same thing. If Lilith trades them away (whatever the original conditions were) then she will suffer for it :) Leath. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #184 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.