From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 30 00:18:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00216 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:18:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24937 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:25:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:25:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199705300325.WAA24937@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #188 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 188 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question Re: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Re: your mail IN> A few things. IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday IN> KYD addenda -- Alaemon IN> KTE addenda -- Litheroy IN> Archetypes [long] IN> Know Your Diabolicals #9 (Laurence) Re: IN> A few things. IN> Celestial Outcasts Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday IN> Re: forces Re: IN> Needs and Perception Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim Re: IN> Celestially damaging a Human Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:18:02 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail > > Sounds to me like Herr John is dodging The Awful Things That Tear Out > Eyeballs and Their Even More Awful Kindred That Feast On Entrails again. > ()[===] Would I be so craven as to avoid mere horrible physical pain when important questions needed to be answered? Fie, I say! I laugh at mere mutilation and dismemberment! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:21:43 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: Re:IN> Lilim Resonance Question [Summary snipped] > No additional qualifiers can be put on the geas until the Lilim gets > around to using or "actualizing" it. Thus, when the Lilim fulfills a > need, she can promise to only ask for a specific favor later. However, > she can always welch on that promise and ask for something else. The > only option left to the victim is to try and resist with a Will roll. Exactly. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:24:46 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail > >> As a rule, any being with a Corporeal form is immune to Celestial damage. > > > > Yup. That's pretty much the case. However that is a > >_general_ rule, not a universal one. There may be very special > >circumstances where a being with a Corporeal form might take > >Celestial damage. I'm not saying that I know of such a case as > >of right now, but it's possible in the future. > > Calabim of Andrealphus are a current exception, though they cannot > cause the loss of Forces, just soul hits. Yup. An important point... and enough to make most Celestials _very_ nervous. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:18:02 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Re: your mail > > Sounds to me like Herr John is dodging The Awful Things That Tear Out > Eyeballs and Their Even More Awful Kindred That Feast On Entrails again. > ()[===] Would I be so craven as to avoid mere horrible physical pain when important questions needed to be answered? Fie, I say! I laugh at mere mutilation and dismemberment! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:45:05 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> A few things. OK, first of all I would like to say that I am looking for one or two people for my PBeM. Email me if you are interested. With that out of the way, I would like to mention the IRC channel #innomine on EfNet. I started teh channel shortly after In Nomine was released and a few regulars have come along since then. It is a place to talk about the In Nomine game as well as to Role play in character. Rules for the roleplaying aspect of the channel are located at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/6694/ or, if you are unable to go on the web, email me, and I can send you a copy. The roleplaying aspect is being run by DarkNyte/Khallas and he can be reached at khallas@geocities.com or look him up in #innomine. There is probably something I am forgetting to mention, but I guess that will come to me later. Remember to use an Efnet server when connect to visit us in #innomine. If you need some EfNet servers, Email me or Khallas and we should be able to give you a few that will work for you. If you need an IRC client, there are various ones to be downloaded from the web. my personal favorite is mIRC and can easily be located by most search engines. Bye for now, Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 rbeall@fdl.fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com grim88@as-if.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks "The world is a joke, and humanity is the punchline." - Kobal, Demon Prince of Dark Humor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:06:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Thanks to Hunter S. Thompson, the guy who gave us the quote about the Universal Symphony (actually unretouched, as it happens) that opens part two of the Book, we can now mathematically know the exact height of God. Seriously. In _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ (the source of the Symphony quote, I believe), the renowned Doctor of Journalism tells of a Vegas hotel with a giant video screen on its side, which will (for just $5 IIRC) project your image, 200 feet tall, upon the screen. Five bucks (or whatever the sum was) more for a voice message ("They'll hear you, don't worry about that -- remember, you'll be two hundred feet tall"). "This is some bad craziness," is more or less what Thompson says, "when anyone with ten dollars [or however much it was -- AGL] in his wallet can walk into a hotel and appear on the Vegas skyline twelve times the size of God, howling any deranged nonsense that comes into his head...." So, if somebody 200 feet tall would be twelve times the size of God, then God Himself must stand 16'8" tall. QED. Woodstock ueber Alles! And while we're on the subject of God's height and weight and such, I just wanted to say that G.K. Chesterton's 1908 book _The Man Who Was Thursday: a nightmare_ should IMAO be required reading for any GM planning to have the Almighty make a personal appearance in their campaign. And does anyone who's read the book have thoughts on whether the other six Days (Monday, Gogol, St. Eustache, Syme, De Worms and Bull), and Lucien Gregory, are meant to represent specific deities? Or, at least, specific Archangels? Austin George "Gregory is probably Lucifer, for one thing" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:00:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> KYD addenda -- Alaemon [Beth, feel free to tweak these comments if you feel they need it. Beth *and* Paul, please add these to the appropriate listings.] Know Your Diabolicals (series created by Elizabeth McCoy) A young angel's guide to the Fallen and their masters. Addenda -- views of Alaemon - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #2: As delivered by a Servitor of Stone "A wait for one to attack can last days -- but when he *does* strike, only the most Perceptive will have any warning." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #3: As delivered by a Servitor of Judgment "The present Prince of Secrets is the greatest traitor since the First Fall. Fortunately for us, however, his minions are more concerned with their master's vendetta against Litheroy than with enticing others to join Alaemon in the Pit. They are, however, still worth investigating, as many times, the secrets they hide relate to a Casting Out or a Fall." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #4: As delivered by a Servitor of Creation "These guys spend a lot of time trying to track down the boss. If you feel the need to find him, follow one. If not, get creative with laying false trails." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #5: As delivered by a Servitor of Fire "Most often found by Seraphim, Cherubim, Ofanim and Mercurians. In the cleansing light of Heaven's fire, all secrets are exposed." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #8: As delivered by a Servitor of Animals "Unimportant to us -- most concerned with keeping secrets from humans. Tell our friends when you see a Servitor of Secrets, then go on about your business." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #11: As delivered by a Servitor of War "Keep everything aboveboard and the Servitors of Secrets can't do you any real harm. Watch out for Distinguished types with invisible Corpus - -- they can hit you harder than you expect." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #13: As delivered by a Servitor of Destiny "Alaemon's Fate is sealed now, it seems. His Servitors, however, are by no means beyond rescue." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Austin George "Up next: the Litheroy KTE comments" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:02:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> KTE addenda -- Litheroy Know the Enemy (series created by Elizabeth McCoy) A comprehensive course for young demons, in determining the strengths and weaknesses of The Enemy. Addenda -- views of Litheroy - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #1: As delivered by a (probably Balseraph) Servitor of Lust "They say they're all for exposure -- then, when you greet them wearing nothing but a smile, they get all huffy and tell the world you're really a demon. And some of 'em can *make* people believe it too! Not worth the risk." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #2: As delivered by a Servitor of the Game "As useful as Seraphim and Elohim for uncovering Suspects, but be wary, lest they ruin your own cover." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #3: As delivered by a Servitor of the War "Not combat-oriented, but they're the *perfect* spies. Pity they're on the other side." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #4: As delivered by a Servitor of Nightmares "With a few words, these Servitors can undo weeks of work. And unlike the Elohim, they're not reliably vulnerable to fear. Above all, beware the Masters of Discovery, who can often trace you back from a victim." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #5: As delivered by a Servitor of Fire "Nothing but talk, talk, talk! A little hotfoot usually shuts 'em up." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #6: As delivered by a Servitor of Gluttony "Surprising sometimes -- but then, who wants the same thing every day anyway?" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #7: As delivered by a Servitor of Dark Humor "No sense of humor. Boring. Avoid." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #8: As delivered by a Servitor of Fate "These Servitors occasionally reveal a target's Destiny. Get them to reveal it to *you*...and make sure that the patient himself *doesn't* find out." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #9: As delivered by a Servitor of Factions "A bunch of busy-bodies who stick their noses in just when you're having fun. See if you can convince them to keep a secret or two of their own, then watch 'em swell Alaemon's ranks." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #10: As delivered by a Servitor of the Media "Cast similar sorts as nosey private detectives -- the kind who'll run you in for a 20-year-old traffic ticket. That puts a little gum on their shoe." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #11: As delivered by a Servitor of Death "They dig into secret stuff. Good rite-fodder. It makes Alaemon happy when you whack 'em, so don't let him know." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #12: As delivered by a Servitor of Theft "Astoundingly good at finding you out and taking the swag back where you got it. Get one of Al's people to help you out -- they'll be glad of the rite-fodder." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #13: As delivered by a (probably Habbalite) Servitor of Technology "Often useful for getting our devices out to the masses, but they can't be automatically relied on." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #14: As delivered by a Daughter of Lilith "`Information wants to be free,' right, sis? These guys have the right idea, but sometimes they go too far with it -- not having a Role is just borrowing trouble, if you ask me." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Austin George "Coming up next -- another KYD" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:35:54 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Archetypes [long] Ok, ladies and gents, here's my contribution to Kobal Peace Foundation International. Hope you like it! The Four RPGer Archetypes in In Nomine - ----------------------------------------- The Archetypes-- Real Man: The big, tough guy that warns the enemy Superiors to leave before they get hurt. Real Roleplayer: The intelligent, cunning guy that tricks the enemy Superior into letting the party go free. Loony: The crazy guy who will do anything for a laugh, including giving the enemy Superior a wedgie. Munchkin: Need I say more? DIVINE SIDE Choir: Real Men play Malakim. Real Roleplayers play Mercurians. Loonies play Ofanim. Munchkins play Malakim with 6 Corporeal Forces and Level Six gun talismans Archangel: Real Men serve Michael. Real Roleplayers serve Dominic. Loonies serve Gabriel or the Angel Of Potted Plants. Munchkins serve whoever gives them the most plusses. Favorite Mission Type: Real Men like search-and-destroy demons. Real Roleplayers like inner conflicts over free will. Loonies like anything taking place in a pie factory. Munchkins like anything that allows them to use their level six gun talismans. Favorite Method of Dealing With A Demon: Real Men destroy it. Real Roleplayers talk it into Redemption. Loonies throw water balloons at it and yell "Puttin' out the fire!!!" Munchkins shoot it with their level six gun talismans. Dealing With Outcasts: Real Men scare them into reform. Real Roleplayers play them. Loonies tie their shoelaces together and shout "Have a nice Trip, see you next Fall!" Munchkins turn them over to Dominic, hoping to earn more plusses. DIABOLICAL SIDE Band: Real men play Calabim. Real Roleplayers play Balseraphs. Loonies play Ethereal Marches Spirits. Munchkins play Lilim owed two geas/6s from Lucifer himself. Prince: Real men serve Baal. Real Roleplayers serve Asmodeus. Loonies serve the Demon Of Stale Bong Water. Munchkins serve whoever gives them the most plusses. Favorite Mission Type: Real Men like destroying churches. Real Roleplayers like slowly corrupting angels. Loonies like driving humans to suicide by constantly singing "Oh I'm Henry the Eight I am, Henry the Eight I am I am..." Munchkins like whatever job convinces their princes to award them mroe plusses. Favorite way to deal with an angel: Real Men gang up on it and destroy it. Real Roleplayers plague it with doubt until it Falls. Loonies go at it with a bucket of KFC, shouting "Look! Wings!" Munchkins call in one of their geas/6 from Lucifer. Dealing with Renegades: Real Men destroy them. Real Roleplayers manipulate them into taking care care of their angelic foes. Loonies leave them endless loop cassettes of Garth Brook's 'Standing Outside The Fire.' Munchkins report them to Asmodeus, hoping to earn more plusses. AS HUMANS Favorite Side to Serve: Real Men serve heaven. Real Roleplayers serve the Soldiers Of Humanity. Loonies serve the Ethereal God Of Silver Plated Eating Utensils Used In Inappropriate Ways. Munchkins serve whoever gives them the most plusses. GENERAL Favorite Weapon: Real Men like Fiery Swords. Real Roleplayers like holy/unholy derringers. Loonies like banana cream pies and shaving foam cans. Munchkins like whatever gives them the most plusses. Favorite Song: Real Men like the Song Of Thunder. Real Roleplayers like the Ethereal Song Of Light. Loonies like the Corporeal Song Of Hyperactivity. Munchkins like the Song Of Enemy Slaying. Favorite non-weapon Artifact: Real Men like Body Bags (extra vessels!). Real Roleplayers like Serpahim Scalpels. Loonies like Neverending Bags Of Banana Peels. Munchkins like Level Six Reliquaries holding all three versions of every Song. Favorite Skill: Real Men like any Weapon/6. Real Roleplayers like Savoir Faire/4 and Fast Talk/4. Loonies like Tie Shoelaces Amazingly Quickly/6. Munchkins like Do Anything/6. Favorite Transportation: Real Men like motorcycles. Real Roleplayers like motorcycles, too. Loonies like travelling in Celestial form while spending Essence constantly. Munckins like the Celestial Song Of Motion, unlimited range and no-disturbance version. OK, no more, I promise. Any comments, please feel free.... I managed to avoid burning at the stake for Ultimus Maximus, I can but hope for the same this time.... - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:05:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #9 (Laurence) Know Your Diabolicals (series created by Elizabeth McCoy) A young angel's guide to the Fallen and their masters. #9: As delivered by a (Malakite) Servitor of the Sword (Laurence) Bands ===== Balseraphs: Some of these are worthy opponents; others prefer to spout their lies from outwith the place of battle. Show them that the edge of truth cuts in two directions. Djinn: Use the power of the Hunt to remind them that they are not the only ones able to track a foe unerringly. Be warned -- they are worthy opponents. If they be not attuned to you, they can fight back; even if so, they may be clever enough that they interpret your attack as a request to be harmed. Calabim: These destroyers are a poor substitute for Malakim, but not without their own dangers. Other demons stay well back from Calabim; if not actively attacking one, you should do likewise. Habbalah: Let the punishment of these creatures be tempered with pity for their delusion. Lilim: Destroy the temptresses -- but if a Lilim should glimpse in your eyes the need to slay her vessel, be willing to stand down and let her go rather than enter debt to a creature of Hell. Shedim: If madness could be manifest in celestial form, it would wear the shape of a Shedite. Best is to drive the Fleshless one from its stolen body and strike it down celestially. Sadly, however, this is not always possible, particularly if the Shedite have been in its host long enough to drive out all trace of honor and decency. In those cases, at least, you may strike down the mortal without regret. The others are a necessary tragedy; comfort yourself if you can with the thought that the final fault lies with the Corruptor, and pray that the creature may meet its judgment soon. Impudites: This Band is Honor's opposite. They use the friendship Mercurians offer as a mask to drain the energies of the human soul. Attack them if you can, but bear in mind -- like their counterpart Choir, they are free to attack celestials. Servitors of... =============== Alaemon: This Prince is the worst possible mockery of honor -- a Fallen angel, become the opposite of his former Archangel's Word. Servitors of this traitor to the Symphony are to be thwarted at every turn, and their persons and schemes exposed in the Sword's name and that of the noble Litheroy. Andrealphus: The greatest danger we face from the Servitors of Lust is that their nascent religion of Self may displace the Faith entirely. The second greatest is that of a more personal seduction; they are very skilled at such things, we learn, and gain Distinctions for enticing angels to submit to their detestable lusts. We must be on our guard. Asmodeus: The Servitors of the Game are a danger only to the Outcast and their own side. That Dominic's triads work with them is -- must be -- a necessary evil, allowing the Servitors of Judgment to determine which Outcasts and Renegades are in truth seeking redemption. Baal: War's Prince is a worthy opponent, though he absent himself from the ranks of battle. As with Malakim and with the Servitors of Michael, Servitors of infernal War can never retreat save by direct order. Since their Prince will never give such an order, let us not ourselves turn Turk in the face of their attack. Beleth: The soi-disant Queen of the Night concentrates more on the Marches than she does on the corporeal realm. When a Soldier's dreams become haunted by a Servitor of Nightmares, there is no dishonor in standing aside to let Blandine's Servitors handle matters. Belial: This crude rabble fancies itself great warriors, and they are not wholly wrong in this estimation -- sufficiently heated, even metal melts. Press on through the flames to quench them at their source in your blood or that of the Fire-starter's vessel. Haagenti: These overfed miscreants should rid themselves of their excess weight. Pay particular attention to the lumps of ugly fat atop their necks, which they only use for chewing their food anyway. Kobal: Everything, even honor, is a joke to these Servitors. Let them taste your blade, and see who has the last laugh. Kronos: Hell's subtlest and most important Prince may count us beneath his notice. Let us do our best to prove him wrong. Malphas: These detestable creatures seek to undermine all trust and all faith. You may strike them down without regret. Nybbas: The Media's Servitors are the foremost threat to the Faith in this degenerate age; only his ally the Prince of Lust approaches his role in the destruction of humanity's ties to the Symphony. They rarely if ever resort to direct battle, but are no less dangerous for that. Saminga: The Prince of Death is our most direct opponent, as commander of Hell's front-rank Soldiers and overlord of the Undead. It is a shame, then, that he is so devoid of honor, or indeed any worthy attributes save perhaps a certain low animal cunning. His individual Servitors are not wholly devoid of worthwhile traits, but they do approach that level. Valefor: The similarities of his Servitor's to those of Janus threaten, at times, to outweigh the differences. The difference is that Janus has never been found lying to angels. Be wary. Vapula: Technology's Prince, we learn, seeks to make a god of the Machine, that his personal symphony may drown out the one true Symphony. Let us work to overturn his soulless clockwork deity *now*, before another Uriel becomes necessary. Lilith: The screech owl is not to be trusted. Strike down her daughters unless it would mean entering debt to the one you slay. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:18:51 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> A few things. > OK, first of all I would like to say that I am looking for one or two people > for my PBeM. Email me if you are interested. I am definately interested. I'd like to play a Seraph serving under Dominic, if that will fit within your campaign. If there's anything special I should know about the game before making a character, please tell me. I'll get to work on him right away and send him to you as soon as he's finished. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:19:25 GMT From: marcus.evenstar@greymatter.com (Marcus Evenstar) Subject: IN> Celestial Outcasts To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com In her message of 28May97, the ArchDean asked: EE> Renegades can go Celestial, but Outcasts can't.... Why is this? Perhaps this has something to do with the essential nature of angelic and diabolical Hearts. IMHO, the angelic Heart is a pure jewel-like construct that reflects the inner nature of the celestial. The diabolical Heart is much the same but the construct has inherent flaws since it was made by a Demon Prince. By acquiring so much discord, the Outcast has such flaws in his Heart. Neither Renegades nor Outcasts can return to their realms but the flaws in the angelic Heart make their lot more tragic. Cut off from their Archangel, unable to use their Superior's rites, the Outcast is unable to achieve the state of grace needed to become celestial. The diabolical Heart is already flawed so a few more cracks don't matter. EE> If an Outcast Falls entirely, what happens to his Heart? Does it EE> shatter then, or only when a demonic Heart is crafted for him? Is he EE> locatable by his Heart till then? Can he go celestial now, being, EE> essentially, a Heartless demon (the same as a Free Lilim or a Renegade EE> who shattered his own Heart before running)? In the section on Falling (p.58), it's noted that the Fallen can't get to Hell without the help of another celestial. Since angels can normally go to Hell if they wish, this would imply that the Fallen's Heart has become so flawed that this ability has been compromised. The Fallen celestial will only have a new Heart made after service is pledged to a Prince. Until this happens, there will be an extremely flawed Heart in Heaven. Personally, I'd say that the Outcast can still be traced by his flawed Heart but there would be difficulties. Superiors could find their wayward servitors but might be constrained by the Upper Management. Extremely flawed Hearts might just be given to Dominic before it's too late... ================================================================= | marcus.evenstar | Sturgeons' Law has been revised: From now | | @greymatter.com | on only 87% of everything is crap. | | @helix.eskimo.com | - Professor Ed, Frequency One Management | ================================================================= - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s+:++ a+ C++ U? LU? E? W- N++ o? K++ w+ O? M V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+++ tv b+++ DI++ D G++ e+ h--- r+++ y++(**) - -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- * RM 1.3 02440 * I am Jesus of Borg. Blessed are they who are assimilated. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:38:23 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> God's exact height, and a happy Thursday Austin George Loomis wrote: > So, if somebody 200 feet tall would be twelve times the size > of God, then God Himself must stand 16'8" tall. QED. Woodstock ueber > Alles! And He looks just like Charlton Heston. Having seen HAMLET last week, I now know that Charlton Heston _is_ God. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Some say a comet will fall from the sky Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits TOOL, "Aenima" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:37:00 -0400 From: Donnellys Subject: IN> Re: forces > another thing, does anyone else think its too cheap for pc's to buy > forces? for ten points they can raise each attribute under the force and > all corresponding skills. i'm thinking of using a scale where you cannot > raise forces and each attribute costs your current level to raise. > > jahon One option is to make the cost at least the present level in a stat to increase that stat, making the only way to increase a force is to increase 4 stat points in a catergory. Focus on stat increasement and make force increases a derived result... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:40:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Needs and Perception At 1:19 PM -0400 5/29/97, gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: >in response to the vampire and needs, no. he could fulfill the need >during the night so that the next sunset he gets essence. but can a >vampire have another need, instead of blood? Oh, of *course*! But then we wouldn't call him a vampire... A "gaki," maybe -- those Japanese critters ate things besides blood, IIRC... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:09:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) At 9:36 AM -0500 5/29/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >THe Lilim present a painful paradox to the American value system, [...] >It wouldn't surprise me at aall if many Americans would be >ready to defend Lilith and her Lilim as being merely "misunderstood", not >truly "evil" and actually not actually serving Lucifer in the least. > >Silly People... (yes, I *am* one) I call Lilith Ambigious, myself... And she serves Lucifer -- for he is a "powerful protector" -- but possibly only when he asks. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:14:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beginning Bright Lilim At 11:56 PM -0600 5/28/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Second, I need some help. A new player wants to create a Bright Lilim as a >> starting character. From what I read in the book, it doesn's seem possible. >> Is it possible, and if so, how? > Um, not to steal from a certain sneaker commercial, but I think >you kind of..just do it. Create the Lilim per normal, figure out who she >HAD served (because the Attunements, if I remember right, don't go away - >once you're Attuned, you get to stay that way forever), (No, they go away -- p. 60, the box on Redemption.) >[...] in either case, don't >forget her assorted Geasa. Then just work out the story on how she got in >touch with Heaven and who, if anyone specific, she's working for Up There; >probably assign at least a couple of her Geasa to Archangles. (You know - >a level 5 Geas owed to Laurence for not killing her the instant he saw >her, another to Dominic for not killing her the instant he saw her, maybe >one to Jordi for not killing her the..well, you get the idea.) If she'd gone Bright by the time they saw her, then they wouldn't need or want to kill her... If you want some "Bright" Attunements, check out http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/rules.html ... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:37:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestially damaging a Human At 1:06 PM -0400 5/29/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >I have given one of my NPC's a weapon to do celestial damage as well as >corporeal. If he did enough to rid a human of all celestial forces what >would happen to the human? The human would be toasted, dispersed into the Symphony, upon corporeal death. In the meantime, it would look a lot like a really wimpy Remnant. Could be confusing, save that it wouldn't have some of the mostly-forgotten celestial memories. Probably register as Alzheimer's or a stroke... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:31:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Resonance Questions At 12:18 AM -0600 5/29/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> If you're doing the Perception deal, and fulfill the Need, *then* >> there's that "not knowing" sense... And with those little Geas/1's >> running around the Lilim community, they probably don't matter enough > Heh...I bet they get annoyed with those. "Oh, you only want me to >get the mayonnaise off the top shelf? Fine. Great. You owe me. Someday >I'm going to require you to..to...oh, heck, tie my shoes so I don't have >to bend over for it, or something. Sigh." Way I see it, other demons make jokes about that, while Lilim scoff that some things are *too* trivial. And then, amongst themselves (their fellow Lilim), they keep careful track of those unofficial favors... "It's your turn to get the pizza, sis." Failing to honor non-Geas-level favors is one of the things that gets them into feuds, or even bloodshed... ;-) >> Ah, blackmail. Hmmm... Yeah, that could work. Very nice and evil... > Oh, good..we've evenly traded evils, I don't owe you anymore... >(Er, then again, I may have too much Lilim on the brain.) Makes sense to me! At 9:46 AM -0400 5/29/97, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: >> Heh...I bet they get annoyed with those. "Oh, you only want me to >>get the mayonnaise off the top shelf? Fine. Great. You owe me. Someday >>I'm going to require you to..to...oh, heck, tie my shoes so I don't have >>to bend over for it, or something. Sigh." > >Remember favors are cumulative. So if oyu reach for the mayonnaise enough >times, you can get a lot out of your victim. "Remember how I used to wait >on you hand and foot in the house? Well, could you do me a little favor, to >repay all those times I fetched you the mayonnaise? Here, take this letter..." While I like it, I don't know if we want to introduce the concept of fractional Geasa... };) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:47:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Still more Kyriotate/Shedim questions... At 9:46 PM -0500 5/28/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >About Kyiotates leaving their hosts in at least as good condition as when >they found it... if the host is unaware of what the celestial is doing in >his body, when he finally comes to after a few days of doing whatever with NO >clue what the hell happened to three days of his life, how could the Kyrio >possibly leave the befuddled host in good condition if the host is >confused as all hell? > >"While possessed, the host consciousness roams the Marches and will have >no memory of the events which occured during the divine takeover." pg 101 > >Wouldn't that be distressing to "wake up out of a dream, be missing two or >so days of your life, and have other people telling you all the things you did? > >Perhaps we should politely IGNORE this fact, but... Why do you think that Shedim are so nasty? Kyrios are the most morally/ethically dubious Choir of all, save for those of Destiny, who at least can act "normally" when it matters... So when they Fall, they get nasty. (Yes, about the only really ethical thing that a Kyrio can do is possess animals, and people who would be sleeping anyway and only for as long as they'd be sleeping. Rough life.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:35:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lillim are Evil! (What, all of them?) At 12:09 AM -0400 5/29/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Error: look at Lilith's Rites and Invocation modifiers. While Lucifer >and the Princes may *want* Lilith to promote Anarchy, she does *not* >exclude "good" freedom.<<< > >Right...she advocates ALL freedom, regardless of whether it's good or not. And regardless of whether it's evil or not. She is ambigious. (I like this. Ambiguity is useful.) >[...] She COULD choose >to side with Heaven, or if she really wanted to, stay out of the War >completely (a lot of the pagan gods are doing this.) A lot of the pagan gods are *DYING* or *DEAD*! From a survival perspective, you pick a side in the War, and "her experience with the Host involved being a mortal's slave." It may be easy for her to rationalize what side she picked. (Mind you, that doesn't make it the *right* side, but she's not doing it entirely for spite and cruelty.) [...] >Every Prince has his own reasons for opposing Heaven, some of them believe >they're in the "right". But they are all ultimately acting out of >selfishness and spite, like Lilith. Or for survival and due to certain misunderstandings between her and the angelic side... Is it selfish to have a survival instinct? That's gotten around in angels mostly because they don't die very easily... Sacrifice a vessel for a greater good, and no problem. Sacrifice your very existance for no gain (Lilith's likely fate if she'd tried to stay neutral)? More dubious... >>>>Resist the Government [ambigious; depends on government] > >And she doesn't care what government. Nope -- it's *ambigious*. Not evil, not good. Ambigious. >>>>Quit Their Jobs [I tell the people at AGIS to do this all the time] > >Lilith says "Quit your job", whether or not quitting their job will >inconvenience or devastate coworkers, friends, family members, etc.... Yup. Could go either way. Did I say otherwise? >>>>Leave One-Sided Relationships [is there *any* way to make this "Evil"?] > >Possibly. And Lilith wouldn't care about other issues like children, the >health of both people in the relationship, finances, etc. "Leave now! Leave >your children behind, they're just anchors tying you down!" I have seen one-sided relationships. Take the kids and go; staying is worse for them than leaving. Any "we're together for the kids" is a laugh. (Okay, maybe not *any* -- that's too big a generality. But there is *no* excuse for some things.) The point of a "one-sided relationship" is that it's one-sided -- one person gives and gives and gives, and the other takes. Amusingly enough, this could get someone urging a mortal to dump an Impudite... Anyway, I see that one as the clearest indication that Lilith doesn't let herself be restricted by petty concerns of doing "Evil," any more than she's restricted to doing "Good." >>>>Lilith obviously takes her Word to mean what she feels it should >mean at the time -- and sometimes, *often* apparently, it has the >more "angelic" metaphoric meaning of the overthrowing of tyranny.<<< > >Only because tyranny is common....but the point is, Lilith doesn't make ANY >value judgments. She advocates freedom for completely selfish reasons, >without regard for anyone else. This makes her a more evil entity than Janus, who advocates change and chaos and swiping things for "completely unselfish reasons"? If they weren't on opposite sides, they'd probably be Allied! >She isn't advocating freedom because she >wants mankind to be free of unjust restraints, she wants mankind to be free >of ALL restraints, including those that are necessary for a healthy >society. *That* is unclear. Ambigious. Easy enough to go either way on. It's what makes her a fun Demon Princess. You can't always be sure what her motivations are. You may think she's going for a Good thing, and wind up discovering that it's totally twisted and selfish, or you might be agonizing 'cause you're doing something that looks horrid and winds up being a task that angels would approve of... Her word is *not* necessarily "evil," nor is it necessarily "good." Hm... There is an implication that she doesn't like her Lilim being victimized -- which you could take to mean as an anarchy where *nobody* gets to play "I'm bigger and badder than you, so you're my slave." A tough thing to manage! But who said she had to be sane, either? >>>>Somewhat of a semantic quibble here -- "Each Lilim, more than any >other demon, wants to be completely free, answering to no one." That >they give up on this doesn't mean they're not still *oriented* towards >it. Just that they'd have to do more backstabbing that it's usually >worth to get there, once they've gone and Bound themselves...<<< > >They are devoted to freedom for *themselves*, that doesn't mean they really >care about anyone else's freedom. (Their Resonance, in fact, is designed to >restrict the freedom of others!) (Any more than a Divine Contract?) And no, it DOESN'T mean they care about anyone else's freedom! But neither does it mean that one *can't*. I'm *HARDLY* arguing that *all* Lilim are really good!! I'm merely pointing out that they're one of the more ambigious of the Bands, as befits their unique and ambigious Mother. This is already hinted at in the book, where they have the only demonic Perception-based Resonance. >>>>If they're not dissonant, they aren't Renegades in the sense of p. 30. >They *are* "insufficiently devoted to Evil," and therefore Renegades in >Asmodeus' mind, but in mentality, they are more complex than the >p. 30 thumbnail sketch...<<< > >Actually, the ONLY technical requirement to be a Renegade is for your >Prince and/or Asmodeus to regard you as such. Error: p. 30 clearly states that Renegades start the game with Discord, unable to summon their Prince or use Rites. In the case of Lilim, one could be off trying to establish a power-base with the Ethereal Gods (under the nose of Asmodeus) and without any Discord whatsoever (save the Geasa, which may or may not count) and still able to use the Rites of Freedom. Of course, if she's caught out, Asmodeus is going to say she's not devoted to Evil and lable her Renegade! (And Dominic would probably help get her...) Lilith might cut her off when she was found out, or might not... But she's not, *game-mechanic-wise*, a Renegade. She's only an in-play Renegade. >[...] So you can be a non-dissonant Renegade. (You can also >be a non-dissonant Outcast, in fact.) Not according to pp. 29-30 -- at least, they are stated to start with Discord. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #188 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.