From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 4 08:07:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29115 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:06:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17106 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:26:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:26:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199707041126.GAA17106@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #236 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 236 In this digest: Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions IN> people who run In Nomine IN> Disturbance Q Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions IN> Do androids dream in the Marches? Re: IN> Yet another Word-bound... Re: IN> Adventure : Graduation Party Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> GenCon Revisited IN> Character Creation and GM aid Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions Re: IN> Attunements IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) Re: IN> Yet another Disturbance Q Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malakim) Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions Re: IN> Disturbance Q Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions Re: IN> Yet another Disturbance Q Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki IN> IN:> Disturbance Thoughts IN> Roundly Chastised.... :-) Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 13:42:08 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Who > >was Jesus? Some claim he was the Son of God... is this necessarily > true > >(in game world)? If not, then who was he? And what role does he > play in > >the Symphony? > > Who was he? Well, that depends on what you believe... (And what > the GM decides.) He's not around in the lower Heavens to answer > any questions. Even angels debate about whether he was celestial > or human (haven't found anyone willing to admit to having taken > the Role: Jesus...). In some texts, you can find some reference to Jesus as the Archangel Michael - he would have came to Earth as Son of Man to save the human and he choosed to be born (a level 6 Role!!) in order to learn the hazards of being human... It doesn't quite fits the Michael *we* know - unless his trip downhere had served some other unknown purposes... After all, the jews of that time always expected their savior to be a warrior, one who would destroy Rome once and for all... What leaves us some questions: What powers worked behind Rome? Hasn't Christianism destroied Rome after all?? Michael is the first Angel - Who else could better fit the Role of "Son of God"??? The Book says Michael is "Pig-headed and individualistic", but it also says his servants "are also sympathetic to the human condition, and try not to miss out on an opportunity to relieve a human of his pain" - Could it be that Michael came here to learn something indeed, and his servants' actions of today mirrors that lesson? If so, Michael wouldn't be so pig-headed anymore, would he? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:37:50 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions On Jul 2, 6:59pm, Walt Mazur wrote: > Subject: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions > What is the interaction of Kyriotates, Shedim, and Song of Possession with > attunings by Cherubim, Djinn, and Celestial Song of Attraction? Cherubim/Djinn only can track something as long as it is on the Corporeal Plane. And they need to _touch_ the object of their Resonance. Also their Dissonance takes affect when the object's Strength is reduced to zero. All this indicates to me that they are locked onto the _physical_ form, not the mind/soul of the being. So what happens if a Cherubim/Djinn tries to track a Celestial (with possibly multiple Vessels or one of the body hoppers like the Kyriotates)? My first impulse is to say that they can't be tracked with this Resonance, but the text on p.143 implies that this _is_ possible. Damn. Okay if a Cherubim/Djinn suspects that the above might be a problem, they can _at the time of attumement_ try to attune to the soul, rather than the body of a being. This has a -4 penalty but will track independent of the body. Remember if the soul leaves the Corporeal plane, the tracking doesn't work. Kyriotates are so fragmented, even if the Cherubim/Djinn is tracking it, the Resonance only works on check digit of 6 unless the Kyriotate happens to be in only one form. A roll of 6, however, will tell him where ALL the Kyriotates forces are (on the Corporeal plane). Celestial Song of Attraction will work under the same penalties, but you have to track down the Kyriotate piece by piece. [Note: If the Superiors writing up Cherubim/Djinn have a problem with this or an alternate ruling, please speak up!] ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:13:44, -0500 From: ErinTheBlack@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH B CONNOLLY) Subject: IN> people who run In Nomine The other night me and some friends sat down and tried running this game. Let me tell you, I've read the books, I've read the mailing list for a while, and I *love* the In Nomine setting. The rules for it, IMHO, suck severely. Also, I think some of the various attunements need to be powered up or powered down for considerations of game balance. My friend told me "I don't think God was thinking in terms of game balance when he created the angels" but, for instance, Smite (Gabriel attunement) versus Animal Magnetism (Jordi). Or even Cherubim of Jean versus Calabim of Belial. Granted, a lot of these abilities are pretty cool, but some of them hardly seem worth the points. Anyway, game balance isn't my main problem with the game. It just seemed like something most of the players pointed out as they were making up characters. The problem is how confusing and vague the rules are for generating characters. I think it's a great setting, but the poor layout and hard to find, poorly thought out, and often arbitrary rules seem to prevent some people from enjoying the game. I recall someone a while back said they were thinking about converting the game to White Wolf style rules. Did they ever post it to the list? If so, is it on a web page somewhere? My thought was to convert the game over to the rules system from Cyberpunk 2020. That's always been my favorite system for logical and slick as spit game mechanics, if not for the setting. In Cyberpunk people don't get to be as tough as helicopters. :-) I don't think the system is runnable as it is presented in the book, although I've seen people posting various house rules, and canon "patches" for some of the various weak spots in the book rules. Still, I think personally I'll be ditching the whole d666 thing in favor of a game system that make me wince when I notice that a Long Sword, a Battle Axe, and an M-16 all have the same modifier to the check digit for damage? Likewise, brass knuckles and a derringer have the same damage bonus? This just doesn't seem to me like someone gave it a great deal of thought. Anyway, I'm interested in how many people decided to just go with the setting and the supernatural powers, but run the game with a different set of game mechanics. Anyone? --Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:58:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Disturbance Q Kingsley Lintz rote: >> My kludged proposal : [Current DoD] rounds without causing any >> Disturbance effectively halves what you've accumulated for stacking >> purposes. So if said Demon Plugs a human for DoD=12, than waits one > Hmm...I like it conceptually; in play, I'm not sure I'd want the >added bookkeeping. Myself, I think I'd keep it more as a conceptual The bookkeeping is a pain, yes. Actually, I've thought of a better solution. DoD bleeds off at a rate of 1 per minute. This corresponds nicely with the Echo mechanics and is much easier to keep track of. >thing...if you're doing it all as part of the same `thing', it builds up; >if you actively separate the events, it doesn't. So if the demon sat up >there picking people off quickly, it would build...if he waited between >them (not just taking aim, but actually breaking off from killing for a >moment and starting again...though reloading might qualify), it could be >alright. This is kind of nebulous, and allows players to be pretty noisy with minimal consequences. Consider the Malakim bounding overwatch situation. You are allowing celestials to engage in large scale military action against humans here, which is something I'd like to aviod. > To take the example from the book...the Cherub killing the three >muggers is presumably doing it all in one brawl. Goes into the fight, >kills one, keeps fighting the other two, gets another, finishes off the >third...but isn't for even a moment there NOT working to kill one, or at >least taking the actions that risk it (eg. bashing them up against the >wall as hard as he can). If he killed one and the other two ran off and >he had to give chase, that'd probably qualify as a `break', in my mind... >(If the other two ran off and he threw a brick and smashed in the second >one's head, that wouldn't, of course..) Theoretically, a tough angel could literally ignore the fight for one turn after every kill to minimize DoD. Not an idea I like. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:36:53 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions At 06:40 PM 7/2/97 EDT, you wrote: >>Now, what happens when the Celestial leaves the host? A Cherub--the model >>for the other attunings--holds his attuning, "As long as it exists on the >>corporeal plane" (p. 95, under Resonance). So one view would be that the >>attuning would be lost as soon as the attuned went celestial, > >Going celestial leaves you on the corporeal plane still -- you have to >take a separate action to ascend to the celestial plane itself. > OK, what if that piece of the Kyrio *does* go to the Celestial plane but the rest of it stays on the Corp. plane? -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:09:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> Do androids dream in the Marches? Re: IN> Yet another Word-bound... [Apologies if I'm covering old ground.] On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, at 09:38:56 CDT, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [...] >Bringing this back to IN, a standard question regarding robots, >androids, intelligent computers and AI generally is Do they have souls? Poul Anderson wrote a Noh play called "Rokuro" that looks at just that question in a very -- well, a Noh way. It appeared in Bantam's _Full Spectrum 3_, and I recommend it. >The answer to this question might be easy for an IN character to get, >but not the next question -- What do you DO about their souls? > The question is either meaningless or redundant. You do (or try to do) about their souls what you do about the souls of mortals -- get them on your side and headed your way. The question is, *do* they go to an afterlife? Or does the soul of a construct just disband at death? Austin George "Points to ponder" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 97 17:35 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Adventure : Graduation Party >>> The affair starts at IOU University, at the latest graduation. The >> >>What does the "U" stand for...? > >My error: IOU, where U stands for university. I stands for Illuminati. >You're not classified to know what the O stands for. (I'm not sure that >anyone short of the ArchDean is. :)) If anyone else knew, I suspect it would be me. And she won't tell me, either.... >>>K.K.'s Amusements >>>----------------- >>> >>> These will be running through Graduation, as and when the Lilim can >>>stage them. Use for maximum confusion and amusement. (Yours, not theirs.) >> >>Why would a GM want to maximally confuse himself? Never mind.... > >Their confusion, your amusement: K.K. clearly got at my grammar checker. >Darn Lilims get everywhere. I'm not complaining.... - ---Walter (aka Dean of WUSE) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:45:46 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > I recall someone a while back said they were thinking about converting the > game to White Wolf style rules. Did they ever post it to the list? If so, > is it on a web page somewhere? That was probably me. No to both, because I never actually did it. You know why? Because it would be an awful lot of work. Hey, summer school's over now, though, so I may get around to it. > I don't think the system is runnable as it is presented in the book, I agree. What you've said here is exactly my initial impression of the game. "Cool art! Cool setting! Oh, but do the rules suck..." [I bought the game solely based on the illustration of Michael.] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:34:56 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> GenCon Revisited > >Oops da Ogre, and we just broke down and bought a hardback version of IN > Demonic cover, of course. I loved some of the looks I got. ;'} I finally broke down and bought a SECOND hardback IN - this time demonic (the first was angelic). Now when I run my game I can hand the angels the white cover, the demons the black cover, and I have most of the rules memorized, or I can just confiscate one of the books - and that's assuming that I can't get ahold of the GM's screen before I start in about two weeks.:) SeanMike still recovering from his 21st birthday - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:52:30 +0100 From: steve.warner3@virgin.net (steve.warner3@virgin.net) Subject: IN> Character Creation and GM aid Dear In Nomine staff, I was wondering if there were any plans for a GM aid for the PC. If you have none in the pipline I was wandering how I stood writing one and using your source material, (GIF'S Character sheets etc) You can contact me at andrew@tsll.demon.co.uk great game keep up the good work,. ;-P ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:50:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions At 12:36 PM -0400 7/3/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >At 06:40 PM 7/2/97 EDT, you wrote: >>>Now, what happens when the Celestial leaves the host? A Cherub--the model >>>for the other attunings--holds his attuning, "As long as it exists on the >>>corporeal plane" (p. 95, under Resonance). So one view would be that the >>>attuning would be lost as soon as the attuned went celestial, >> >>Going celestial leaves you on the corporeal plane still -- you have to >>take a separate action to ascend to the celestial plane itself. >> >OK, what if that piece of the Kyrio *does* go to the Celestial plane but >the rest of it stays on the Corp. plane? [Listens to Karakash sobbing in the background...] Be kind -- let the Cherub/Djinn track the remainder, if it's all in one place besides other realms. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:47:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Attunements At 9:57 AM -0400 7/3/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> But could the Impudite get the "wicked cook" part, where he spent >> a while in the kitchen and made something so delicious that the >> victim would have a hard time resisting eating it? >> >> Or is that (the cooking) hooking into the Lilim Resonance >> in a subtle way, as the "favor" that will enable the Geas >> to be laid? > > The cooking sets up the potential for the Geas, but >only a Lilim can take advantage of it. The actual _cooking_ >attraction/skill itself is a gift from Haagenti. So if you want to poison food, you *could* set up something which seemed so delicious that it took a will roll to resist eating it, even if the victim suspected he shouldn't? Without being a Lilim, that is... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:39:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: IN> Beelzebub, Prince of Beasts (LONG) Dotti and I wrote this a while back and have just now gotten around to polishing it up and sending it out. Here's hoping you enjoy it. Beelzebub, The Lord of the Flies Prince of Beasts Quote- "The world is savage, red in tooth and claw." The Word of Beasts is an example of how a word, as well as its possessor, can change over time. Originally, Beelzebub detested modern technology and the urban environment; this way of life left no place for the feral creatures that he held close to his cold, Djinni heart. This inevitably led to a significant loss of power for him as humanity slowly covered the face of the Earth. Lately, however, his views have begun to change. Beginning with this century, Beelzebub has been inspired. After listening to some of his servants' reports of the calm, business-like way that gangsters were conducting their alcohol trade and the attendant murders during the Roaring Twenties, he was intrigued. He came to realize that the city had given rise to the most callous killer of all, the human predator- who more often than not targets his fellow man. Beelzebub began to start the laborious process of reorienting his servants during this time, but the end of Prohibition stalled his resurgence. The Lord of Flies, patient as only one of the Stalkers can be, bade his time, slowly building up a new version of his gangs. These new groups , like the Prince of Beasts, saw their influence wax and wane. However, in the eighties, these new gangs renewed their efforts and have achieved an apparently unshakable grip on today's urban sprawls. His power had fallen greatly, from once being worshipped as a god to being merely a kitschy staple of low-grade horror films. Now though, Beelzebub is regaining some measure of his previous might, making many Celestials, both Divine and Infernal, very uneasy. Dissonance- Those who serve Beelzebub gain Dissonance for failing to cull the weak out of the herd, human or not, whenever these poor creatures make themselves known. They also are forbidden to submit to one who has not proven their right to rule by besting them in battle (physical or otherwise, with staring contests being common). Choir Attunements- Balseraph- Ever the most evasive of bands, Balseraphim of Beasts add their Ethereal Forces to their Stealth rolls and impose a like penalty on any attempt to Track them. Djinn- These servants can use the supernaturally sharp senses of Beelzebub's animal vessels to great effect. They add the level of their vessel to Tracking rolls or hunting down their attuned while in animal form. Calabim- The Destroyers have an ability somewhat similar to that of Malphas'. With the successful use of their resonance, the target will be required to make a Will roll with a penalty equal to the check digit of the resonance roll to act according to society's rules over his animal instincts. This lasts for a number of hours equal to the demon's Corporeal Forces. Habbalah- Instead of mere disgust or anger, Habbalah of Beelzebub may attempt to invoke a Blood Lust. If successful, the target will, for a number of minutes equal to the check digit of the resonance roll, require a Will roll to restrain from attacking viciously (often to the point of attempted homicide) any who annoy the victim in any manner. If the victim succeeds in a Will roll prior to the duration's end, the effect ends immediately. Lilim- Lilim can attempt to obtain Geasa on animals, but this is rarely worthwhile, because most animals aren't that bright, nor do they often have a great Need. They also add their Ethereal Forces to any attempt to geas someone to act out an animal instinct that they are suppressing. Shedim- Shedim can possess a wild animal for a number of days equal to their Celestial Forces without the need to corrupt the host. Impudites- These are the servants that best embody Beelzebub's new focus on the callous human predator. They receive a servant of level equal to their Corporeal Forces from some group who work towards their Master's will. (IE- gang members, militia members, survivalists, etc.) Impudites of Beasts make excellent gang leaders. Servitor Attunements- Riot- In any gathering of more than 10 people who are watching or participating in an event that they are emotionally involved in, a demon of Beasts may incite a number of people into mindless violence. This costs 2 Essence for each person so affected and lasts for a time equal to the instigator's Celestial Forces. It only takes a few people to start a riot though... Feral Mask- For the cost of one Essence the demon can call upon his knowledge of beasts to bring an unholy light to his eyes and a predatory snarl to their smile. Those who witness this display will be struck with such a fear that they will automatically comply with the demon's wishes. Soldiers and Celestials get a Will roll to resist. Distinctions- Knight of the Fang- At this level of Distinction, the demon may choose one specific animal form, such as raven or timber wolf. While in this form, the Infernal causes no disturbance. Captain of the Wild- The rank of Captain brings with it the knowledge of how to control natural groups of animals, such as the proverbial pack of wolves or swarm of flies. Unlike Kyriotates of Jordi, the demon does not actually possess the creatures, but merely commands them. This direction lasts for a number of minutes equal to the demon's Celestial Forces minus the average number of Forces of a single member of the group controlled. Only animals that naturally travel in packs are eligible. Baron of Beasts- Barons may take an anthropomorphic or enlarged version of the animal chosen in the Knight distinction, still retaining the stealth of that Distinction. A wolf would become a werewolf, while a scorpion would simply become a man-sized version. Final description is GM discretion, of course. Relations: Allied: Saminga Associated: Beleth, Lilith Hostile: Asmodeus, Haagenti, Malphas Enemy: Nybbas Basic Rites: - - Successfully hunt and kill in animal form - - Convince someone to lash out against civilization's constricting rules. (Join a gang, strike an enemy, kick someone when they're down, etc...) Invocation: Basic Chance:1 Modifiers- +1 Wall with gang graffiti +2 Tracks of a hunter +3 While hunting +4 Scene of a recent drive-by shooting +5 Corpse of a human mauled by an animal +6 Free all of the predators from a zoo! - -- Oops da Ogre (mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) Donald G. Bixler "Why am I always quoted in your .sig? People are going to think that I'm some devil-worshipping wierdo. Oh wait, I _am_ a devil-worshipping wierdo. Never mind." -my wife, Dotti, on my choice of .sig quotes... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:43:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Yet another Disturbance Q > To take it to the extreme, the Demon brings a few million Imps in Killer > Bee vessels to the next recital - they swarm the choir, 50 deaths from (Of course, a few million Imps in any form are going to make quite a splash just manifesting in the Corporeal...) > Do I have this right? It seems like something of a loophole to me. But my understanding of it would be that the "event-Disturbance" would be 550 in each case...though it might reasonably break down in terms of trying to track it past the place it happened to find the perpetrators. Then again, it might not...the rules, if anything, lean towards the full Disturbance applying to everyone involved in full. They only note that several near-simultaneous "events" trigger cumulative Disturbance...not that they have to be done by the same Celestial. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:48:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malakim) > > > If you want to look at another way, Balseraphs (of Kronos) can 'lie' to > > >the Symphony so well, that they actually can function as an Angel! > > Does this mean they can take the Habbalah resonance, then? > Suuuuuuuuure, why not? O;) Actually, thinking about it, it just says the Balseraph can take the Resonance of any Angel...I don't see any reason it couldn't be from among the Fallen. (I'd still say they probably couldn't take the Lilim Resonance, though, because they aren't Angels to start with..) {Of course, THAT brings up the amusing twist of a Balseraph of Kronos choosing the Balseraph Resonance...supporting, perhaps, two entirely different views of reality, able to use whichever suits his current purposes, and as long as they don't conflict within themselves, they can probably conflict between each other...hmm...nah.} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 03:07:12 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:37:50 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" wrote: > Okay if a Cherubim/Djinn suspects that the above >might be a problem, they can _at the time of attumement_ >try to attune to the soul, rather than the body of a being. >This has a -4 penalty but will track independent of the body. >Remember if the soul leaves the Corporeal plane, the tracking >doesn't work. Ok. Any particular reason for the choice of -4 as the penalty? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:37:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance Q > This is kind of nebulous, and allows players to be pretty noisy with > minimal consequences. Consider the Malakim bounding overwatch Potentially, but it keeps that allowance down mostly to what best suits the game and the circumstances. Like I said straight off; most of what I'd do is KEEP it nebulous...I don't think it should be the sort of thing an Elohim can sit down with a calculator and say, "Alright, if you peg both of them, the average demon will be able to hear us up to 33rd Street, but since they're on 35th, we should be cool." (To a certain extent, they should be able to guess about how big a disturbance it's going to make, of course...but I don't think they should always be sure exactly what's going to do what.) > situation. You are allowing celestials to engage in large scale military > action against humans here, which is something I'd like to aviod. How so? It'd be really hard to cut loose with any mass killing device if you have to keep breaking off and doing something else between each kill...especially when 1) they -DON'T- have any such restriction, and 2) You can keep the Disturbance down a bit...you certainly don't get rid of it, so if you're doing anything truly large scale, `they' are going to notice... > Theoretically, a tough angel could literally ignore the fight for one > turn after every kill to minimize DoD. Not an idea I like. Theoretically, but like I said - it takes more than just, "I pause for a turn." They have to refocus themselves on something else. Yes, a really tough one could, but they could do that under your system as well, just by holding the two pinned against a wall, killing one, waiting about 15 minutes, and then killing the other...either way, minimizing the disturbance is just a matter of making things a little bit more inconvenient for them. The difference is your system will tend to take longer, mine is going to be a little less reliable...*shrug* (On further thought, though, I definitely retract the idea that reloading might count...) I have to admit in this, the mechanics of Disturbance annoy me to start with. I mean, every time someone spends an essence, the GM is expected to start calculating out everyone's perception and Celestial forces and making rolls to see who might notice? {Once Adam Canning got me set straight on them, I realized I'd had it all backwards...it's annoyingly easy to detect.} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 03:07:37 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio/Shedim/Possession vs. Cherub/Djinn/Attraction questions On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:50:00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>OK, what if that piece of the Kyrio *does* go to the Celestial plane but >>the rest of it stays on the Corp. plane? > >[Listens to Karakash sobbing in the background...] > >Be kind -- let the Cherub/Djinn track the remainder, if it's all in >one place besides other realms. Ok, so what if the part of the Kyrio that went to the Celestial plane comes back to some other place on the Corporeal Plane and then the part of the Kyrio that was tracked goes to the Celestial Plane? ;> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 03:07:21 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Yet another Disturbance Q On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:00:50 -0500 (CDT), Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: >A demon unloads his uzi into the Vienna Boy's Choir, killing 50 CorpF1 >humans. The resulting DoD is 550. > >At the next recital, the demon brings a .44 and 10 of his best friends - >again, between them they kill 50. According to the rules, the DoD is 55 ... >To take it to the extreme, the Demon brings a few million Imps in Killer >Bee vessels to the next recital - they swarm the choir, 50 deaths from >1/10 point bee stings (effectively simultaneous) result. DoD here is >effectively nil... Well, in the last case whichever bees killed would get the +10 for killing a human. But the important part you're missing is the last paragraph on detecting a disturbance on page 55 (just above Echoes): "When several Symphony-changing actions take place together, or nearly together, in space and time, treat each one as a new event that includes all the preceding ones." So, all these would create the same ultimate disturbance, though they might sound a little different to the discerning celestial. Then there's the case of a skydiving team with a demonic parachute packer-- that's one for GM option, I think. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:10:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine > severely. Also, I think some of the various attunements need to be powered > up or powered down for considerations of game balance. My friend told me This aspect, I have to say, doesn't bother me. I mean, if you're going for the game balance aspect, why would anyone ever run a Soldier of God or an Undead, even with the advantage of not disturbing the Symphony? (Of course..does anybody? I have to say, for this reason, I highly recommend the way we're gearing up for, with everyone having several characters that may or may not come up in a particular session...) > characters. The problem is how confusing and vague the rules are for > generating characters. I think it's a great setting, but the poor layout I didn't have TOO much trouble with that, though I will admit there are a couple of big glitches in the layout on character generation..(the effects of Vessel levels coming under Combat, for example, and the comment about buying new Choir Attunements for 5 points only showing up way off under Archangels...I didn't even know about that one until I saw people talking about it on the List, and I'd read the book pretty thoroughly.) > for some of the various weak spots in the book rules. Still, I think > personally I'll be ditching the whole d666 thing in favor of a game system I don't know...I like the IDEA of the d666, but in practice, it's definitely too simplistic..*sigh* Too easy to get automatic successes, mainly, though that's somewhat justifiable on the note that we ARE talking about supernatural beings here.. > that make me wince when I notice that a Long Sword, a Battle Axe, and an > M-16 all have the same modifier to the check digit for damage? Likewise, In combat, however, I'd have to agree it has definite, crippling failings...though, again, there can be some justification when you consider that the weapons were designed by humans (who, with CorpF2 and Strength5 - relatively beefy for a human - would have 20 body hits..most will range from more like 4 to 12..). Within THAT range, just a couple points added to the Power of an attack would make a difference...and to an extent, there's actually NOT that much difference between a battle axe and a machine gun, except the note that it's generally easier to go at someone with the latter. (Their Accuracies I have more problems with, and their `unarmed combat' lackofsystem is a serious hole, but..) Particularly on the note that even their fully automatic weapons only, apparently, go up to `burst'... Considering it that way, the average hack with a battleaxe or single shot with an M-16 (both 7 hits) would take out about half the people...two would take out all but the toughest. A single burst-shot with the M-16 (11 hits) will kill significantly more in one shot and virtually anyone in two... Celestials, Soldiers of God, and Undead have the potential to have more than 100 hits, of course, for which a lot of the Power bonuses cease to matter..but when you consider this is five times any reasonable human maximum, it's similarly reasonable to presume that humans just don't have weapons in that range. What *SHOULD* be in that range are Songs...my personal feeling on it is, with Songs that do damage, forget about counting Essence as a +1...use it as a multiplier. Songs should be able to seriously rip through things, since they were designed by and for people capable of reaching that level... > Anyway, I'm interested in how many people decided to just go with the > setting and the supernatural powers, but run the game with a different set > of game mechanics. Anyone? But, to actually answer your question ()...no, not really, but we have considered dumping the mechanics almost entirely and just going by feel. {Using the Amber Diceless system's `mechanics', as it were..} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:18 +0500 From: "James Rand" Subject: Re: IN> Calibim of Kronos with Belseraph attunement (Malaki > be from among the Fallen. (I'd still say they probably couldn't take the > Lilim Resonance, though, because they aren't Angels to start with..) Lilim aren't celestials, if you ask me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:13:05 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> IN:> Disturbance Thoughts No answers here yet, just a different viewpoint and some of MHO. More information than "Something's Up." Could there be a qualitative difference between different disturbances to the Symphony? Somehow it seems odd that all disturbances are the same whether they occur because a Celestial set of a bomb and blew a big hole in the ground (lots of Body Hits) or poisoned a class full of children (no Body Hits, but plenty of Deaths) or expended a pile of Essence or Sang a big Song (fiddling with Causality). While I can't recall anything Canon that suggests such a qualitative difference, it is something that might add to the game and could be given as a roleplaying aid or as the result of a good perception roll to sense the disturbance (or both). Adding Disturbances. Eg Shep the Shed is in his favourite sniping post at the Uni of Texas. He has figured that if he shoots (and kills) one person every 2 minutes then the disturbances won't add up. 15 minutes later there are 7 dead people in the quadrangle below and the small(ish) disturbances haven't yet attracted any attention. Shep gets a bit carried away and starts shooting people every 30 seconds (which the Ref decides will add up). When is the disturbance heard? When Shep stops shooting people long enough for the disturbances not to add? After the first two disturbances have added do you have to wait twice as long (time based on the new higher Degree of Disturbance from the added disturbances) before the next disturbance won't add? Do the disturbances come out as bigger and bigger "booms", effectively saying "one dead", "two dead", "three dead" or as nothing then as one big "fifteen people dead" boom? Do disturbances from different Celestials add together? I know that the "Noise" of a disturbance is not a real noise but real noises don't just add up in a directly mathematical way, as far as I know, they tend to overwrite each other to some degree. Should Disturbances add directly, or should they combine to something maybe not as big, say half the smaller of the two before adding? This "discounting factor" could be bigger if the origin of the disturbances is different (eg a song and corporeal damage) and smaller if the disturbance comes from repeated similar actions (eg our sniper). On the question of the Sniper, does the combustion of the propellent in the ammunition cause a disturbance? Okay, I guess the answer is Yes, but bugger all. On the other hand the bullets will do the same damage to whatever they hit so there is gonna be a disturbance at the other end no matter what his skill is . From my quick count of the way Disturbances are heard the distance one can generally be perceived at is multiplied by 10 for ever 3 times the Degree of Disturbance goes up. This means if I do something three times quickly, say sing a Song of Healing, it can be heard ten times as far away. This seems a bit much,. but no idea what to do about it. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: IN> Roundly Chastised.... :-) Okay, okay. I get the point. So, not all the Grigori "fell". I misspoke. I used the wrong term. I wasn't thinking about the connotations of the word "fall"--particularly on this list. I meant "tripped" or "outcast" or what-have-you. I got about eight or nine responses and about six of them were about the Grigori. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:13:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Some Free Roaming Thoughts... On Wed, 02 Jul 1997, "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" sent me the following Celestial Song of Tongues... > > >2) While I liked the description of the Grigori given on this list/digest, > >the Nephallim have left a bad taste in my mouth. If I'm reading the > >description of the Grigori right, then *all* the Grigori fell. The > >Nephallim were children of the Grigori: "Legends say that the children of > >the Grigori created were... known... as the Nephallim...." > > If you're referring to my version of the Nephallim, I do cover that point... > You do? I don't remember it, honestly. I'm going to have to re-read it. > As for all the Grigori being Fallen, yes, traditionally, that is the case. > But the In Nomine rulebook doesn't really say -- it just says they were > "tripped up", spiritually speaking. In Nomine has the unique category of > Outcasts, so I thought it would be more interested if all the Grigori were > members of the Tripped. Actually, the book (as has been pointed out to me) uses the term "excommunicated". Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us - -------------------- Don't panic! I have a new .sig! - -------------------- Instruction Booklet for this message: STEP 1: Open mouth. STEP 2: Insert foot. STEP 3: Chew vigorously. STEP 4: Repeat as needed. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #236 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.