From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 21 12:51:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06711 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:51:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08732 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:59:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:59:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199707211459.JAA08732@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #253 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 253 In this digest: IN> Cain and Abel Re: Lilim in the Hospital (Was: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... Re: IN> Malakim of Creation IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 IN> Seraphic resonance Re: IN> Moral Decisions Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN>Malakim of Creation IN> Seraphic resonance IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: Lilim in the Hospital (Was: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:54:52 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Cain and Abel Hi Folks! I'm finally back home - just to find a mail box FULL of msg!! Some discussions are rather interesting, but I'm just not in the mood to dive in them... But I found some worth answering... James Rand wrote: > I'd suggest based on this that Abel and Cain are around still, in the > Marches most likely, ala Sandman. Well, James,either Abel has inaugurated the Marches (save by Blandine) or he is in High Heaven by now. As for Cain - who knows? If he died, he may be in the Marches too, or in Hell - or maybe he's still around in the Corporeal Plane (Vampire, Vampire!!:-D)... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:31:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Lilim in the Hospital (Was: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations > Well, I don't hink I ever claimed it was a Big City hospital to > begin with. You're right, though, she does in general work better in a town Oh, no..I don't think you'd said either way. Don't get the impression I hadn't liked Nadine; she's a nicely evil idea...it just happened to suit the point well. > she works for. True, one you do realize that, she probably bears watching. > If she's extemely patient, though, maybe, maybe she'll be overlooked. > She'll defianately have to religously avoid things like consorting with > other local Demons and summoning Kronos. Main risks I see coming from > Ofanites of Judgement and uninformed Lilim of Fate. Hard to say...the OoJ had been my immediate thought; any Seraph or Malakim getting her into a conversation by the coffee machine once they've noticed her as a Celestial; a Cherub who Attunes himself to one of her subjects MIGHT be trouble; assuming Gabriel's Servitors' Attunements work on demons as well, several of those (Seraph, Cherub, and Elohim) would have a good chance of spotting her in at least that regard...the other problem is that she has to invoke her Resonance all the time; eventually, she's going to pull an Intervention. Whichever side it's from, that'll tend to risk drawing attention to her... (You might want to get that Role/6 in part by having Kronos inflicting her with the Bound Discord, to avoid some of those temptations, though any kind of Discord carries other risks..) > Hospital, save in those cities with Angelic Tethers. I seem most Hospitals > as being checked on by Angels periodically, mainly to look for jumps in the > Death rate, and things like that. Without calling the Geasa up, Nadine's With somewhat frequent exceptions, I'd agree with that..though I'd tend to assume there are a lot of Relievers around, or doctors/nurses that are on the Soldier of God level. > Besides, I just like the idea of an Ofanite of Judgement wandering > into town and saying, "Hm. That kid has a powerful Geas. And so does that > street vendor. And Him. And Her. And Him. And Him. And--What the Hell's > going on here?" Probably be the best way to put her in somewhere...Angels being sent into some small town where some OoJ, just passing through, noticed `something weird'. Let them try to figure out what's happened in a town (population MAYBE 100) where virtually -everybody- owes the Lilim... (Nadine had, in part, inspired in me the idea of a Lilim running a little curiosity shop called `No Cash Needed'...where you can just walk in and get, or at least order, virtually anything you need. For free. For now... 'Course, the idea went on with the thought of Nybbas's people working the area into an absolute frenzy trying to get one particular toy for their children, which you could only get at this one shop...not only do the Angels have to figure out what's going on and stop it, but when they do, they're splashed all over the news as the grinches who stole Christmas.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:12:48 +0200 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 At 02:20 20/07/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>>>No, Dom is *not* justified. I suggest you read that section again. p. >118: "...for Islam, she recited the Qu'ran to Mohammed at Yves' >instruction...Although she was only following orders, Dominic (who, along >with Laurence, supports Christianity in particular) declared her heretical >and tried to have her exiled from Heaven. Yves and Michael defended her, >but she stormed away angrily and has yet to return. That was over a >millennium ago."<<< > >Two points I'd like to make: > >1) Possibly (this is just a hypothesis, but it makes sense to me), Dominic >was not so much coming down on Gabriel personally, as trying to make an >example out of her so as to crush the new religion (which he disagreed with >at the time) before it gained more support in Heaven. I wonder if there was a little more to it - for example, why was she accepting an order from Yves? He could have done that recitation himself, after all. (Perhaps the notional heresy was in accepting orders from another archangel in place of God. (I wonder how long it will be before Dominic has enough evidence to try Yves for heresy ;) :) ). > No, not very nice, but justifiable >if you take a the impersonal attitude that the greater good is sometimes >served by making a harsh example of one individual. I can imagine that. Perhaps he never intended to really press the charges hard - just to make a point to the other archangels that no mere angel should ever be taken as the voice of God - even Yves? Naturally there is plenty of politics there also (because after all, why should an angel accept Dominic's judgement in lieu of God's). We angels have to accept that hubris exists, but we also need to be made aware of it occasionally. jo (would have to be a Habbalah of the Game - thats 'of' the Game, not 'on' the Game ;) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:50:25 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > For some reason, I keep finding myself wanting to defend Dominic. I > guess it's because so many people seem to have a knee-jerk negative > reaction against "Judgment". Well, he does seem like all the bad things about organized religeon rolled into one... > >>>PR, and the name of the Superior that will track down your ass if you > screw your side over. (At times I wonder if name really *is* the > only thing seperating Dominic and Asmodeus.)<<< > > Not even remotely. (And I realize you were probably being tongue-in-cheek, > so pardon me for using this comment as a springboard to go off a little > rant. ) Actually, I was speaking from the side of my game, which is needlessly dark, dank, and depressing. Trust me, he's not a good guy in my game. Not many people are, mind you - or at least, not the ones would think. > -David (who thinks assigning oneself a Choir and a Superior is silly, but > if I had to, I'd say I have a certain resonance for Elohim of Judgment....) Elohim of Technology/Lilim of Lust in training. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:48:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... > Another possibility is just that Joe the baker is a really great guy and > getting his soul is worth more than getting the souls of thousands of > middle-of-the-moral-road individuals. Or that maybe an angel has invested a lot of themselves in Joe's welfare (this works best on Cherubim, obviously). Get to Joe, maybe get to the angel, which is a sweet prize indeed. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:48:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... > >Remember - they are Heroes. It's a symptom of every RPG - most > >games, whether they like it or not, are cinematic. The PCs are > >destined for great things. > > I've never been fond of this excuse, but there is some logic to it.... Well, it's just not fun to play the average joe. That's why most WoD MUSHes don't work - nobody will play a normal human. > >Sounds good - I'd say about 2/5 Angelic, 3/5 Demonic, with the vast > >majority of the Demons being 7 Force. > > Actually, I'm running Boston as a bit of an angelic stonghold, at the > moment -- the split is about 50/50, but the angels have a slight upper > hand due to the current state of human society there (destruction of the > Combat Zone, for one). Needless to say, the demons are hiding out and > looking for opportunities to turn the tables.... I was speaking more in generalities. The consensus is that 1/3 of the Host Fell, and that demons have been doing quanitity over quality, so I spat out some numbers. The actual split will vary widely from place to place. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:48:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations again.... > > Ah, but you get the troublemaker/troubleshooter syndrome to > >help you. Demons cause problems in town A for some nefarious > >purpose, Angels arrive to deal with Demons, more Demons arrive > >to ensure long-term plans evolve correctly, Angels establish > >tether to keep eye on Demons, etc. Even small towns could have > >stuff like this happen! > > That's fine, but with a limited number of Earthly servitors, a > Superior's best strategy is to concentrate on only those activities that > affect large numbers of people. Following that notion out to its > logical conclusion, nearly all the demons in the US should be in > Washington DC, state capitals, and major corporation headquarters -- you > get more bang for you buck corrupting people there. I don't like this > result -- I want demons out there corrupting Joe the baker in Timbuktu, > Arkansas. You can't have inexperienced Demons working at the top - they might screw something up. They work on the less important stuff. Plus, much damage can be done only from the bottom. Start a general trend of sloppiness in workers at an aircraft parts factory, for instance. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords." - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:04:35 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Jeff Miller wrote: > > True, although the most useful idea from Feng Shui (which absolutely > >ROCKS guys) for In Nomine (which ROCKS too, don't get me wrong) G.M.s, or > >for any G.M. running a rules-low but somewhat cinematic game, is that any > >flamboyant and interesting way of performing an action is no more > >difficult than a mundane way of performing the same action, provided that > >no benefit is gained. > I'm going to have to find Feng Shui.... > > I like that. I *really* like that. Not that I'm biased or anything... but Feng Shui is probably the best RPG on the market right now, and has the perfect attitude for anyone interested in cinematic gaming. In Nomine tries for that cinematic feel, but doesn't always get the point across effectively. FS knows where it's at. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You kill me with your smelly fingers Your smelly fingers from the sex you had on Christmas Day And now you say you're feeling guilty You're feeling guilty 'cos your God was shining on your face SKUNK ANANSIE, "Selling Jesus" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:37:06 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>> Heh...a knee-jerk negative reaction to knee-jerk negative reactions? <<< Nah, I reserve my knee-jerk negative reactions for silly things that annoy me.... like spelling "grin" with a y. >>>Just to start off on the more abstract note, one of the reasons I LIKE to be `down on Dom' is because, personally, I don't like the idea that the Angels are necessarily all nice people doing good deeds. A lot of my impression on this does come from the Bright Dream story...Nicole's treatment of her Servant and Tariel's of his subject are bad enough, and then there's what a snot Gabriel was...*shrug* I just prefer the idea that there are nice Angels and there are mean Angels, and there are mean Demons and, yes, even nice Demons.<<< Of course, this is a basic premise of the game. None of it contradicts what I was saying, in fact, it supports it. >>>Dominic just happens to be one of the easiest Archangels to be down on; I also tend to hold David, Gabriel, and Janus in the kind of light one would tend to put demons, while people like Jean, Jordi, and Laurence certainly aren't always the sorts of people you'd want to WORK for...in other words, I do it not so much as a knee-jerk reaction against the concept of Judgment, as because I don't WANT the Host to be perfect - and the Inquisition is such a good model, it would be a shame to waste. <<< I'm not arguing that Dominic is a nice guy, nor that people should like him. He's not very likeable. I'm arguing that he's not the petty, vindictive bastard he's often made out to be. (Granted, anyone can cast any interpretation they like on any of the characters -- it's your game. But I don't think some of the portrayals of Dom that have been presented here are consistent with official canon.) >>>By whose opinion? If you know someone is a thief, what punishment is `appropriate'? A fine? Thirty days in jail? Twenty lashes with a cane? Hands cut off so they don't do it again? Or, to pull from _Witches Abroad_, head cut off so they don't THINK about stealing again?<<< The fact that they can't inflict a punishment greater than the crime kind of implies that there is a standard by which this can be measured, at least as far as Servitors of Judgment are concerned. Otherwise, this would never be a problem for them: "Well, *I* think burning at stake is a perfectly reasonable sentence for jaywalking...." As for what standard they use, I'd go with the Biblical one, since Dominic tends to favor Old Testament justice. This standard is usually harsh, but not absurd. Eye for an eye, not head for a stolen candy bar.... >>>One major point - he is *NOT* the Archangel of Justice. He is the Archangel of Judgement, which is a far harsher term.<<< True. He Judges according to the prevailing standard -- he's had his OWN standards changed on him a couple of times (like when God intervened with Michael.) He accepts it, and operates within whatever framework is given to him. >>>Well, there's one other quibble against Dominic - he tells people who is and isn't following God's plan, but he doesn't KNOW God's plan any better than the rest of them...and has several times run counter to Yves, who is suggested as more likely than anyone TO know it.<<< Actually, he tells people who is and isn't following the rules. He infers what the rules are from what he understands of God's plan. He can make mistakes -- see above. But he's right more often than he's wrong. Being overruled a couple times in a few thousand years is hardly the record of a rogue judge.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:16:20 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 Jo Hart wrote: [snip] > I wonder if there was a little more to it - for example, why was she > accepting an order from Yves? He could have done that recitation himself, > after all. Yves knew this would irritate Dominic, and therefore got Gabriel to do it. Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Down with categorical imperative! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:05:23 -0400 From: speaks@mindspring.com Subject: IN> Seraphic resonance At 04:41 PM 7/19/97 -0400, David Edelstein wrote: >This is a case where the rules should be ignored. Or rather, amended. >Technically you're correct, asking someone "Was Jesus the Son of God?" >should give a Seraph the *real* answer on a CD of 6, regardless of what the >person he asks says. I'd say that this falls under the category of >"Mysteries God does not wish to be revealed in such a cavalier manner", >however, and come up with some other interesting revelation. In my world Seraphs who even TRY to use their resonance to solve ineffible mysteries are immediately "recalled to heaven" and get to see what happened to Uriel. They do not of course get a chance to tell anyone. The same thing happens to Seraphs who ask questions of people who couldn't possibly know the answer in order to hope for a 6 on the resonance check. God works in mysterious ways. Speaks "He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice." -- Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:19:33 +1000 (EST) From: Len Undy Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions At 09:12 AM 18/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Jul 17, 5:47pm, Walter Milliken wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> Moral Decisions >> >> "You two are both disgusting -- okay, so you can do what you want to >> >> the humans, but don't you *dare* damage the rainforests!" >> >> >> >> (Other two demons look at each other, sigh, and mutter, "Habbalah. >> >> He still thinks he's working for Jordi.") >> > >> > Hey, wouldn't this a cool eco-terrorist? Do whatever you >> >have to to save the trees, including murder, destruction, mayhem >> >and ruined lives! }=) >> >> So how is this different from Jordi's servitors...? > > Ummmm... a Habbalah might enjoy the destruction more? >Okay, so I can't come up with a difference! Hmph! O=) Okay, let me have a go at this. I'm afraid I don't know to much about In-Nomine, but I think I can get the "evil, Twisted" environmentalist mentality down. Example One: Okay, a Habbalah of Jordi know has George has decided his going to save the Amazon Rainforest. The first "threat" George encounters is a massive highway being built through the jungle. Cutting down thousands of trees, messing with the earth ect. Now how does he stop this rape of the forest? He carefully studies the camp, and notes several things; most the workers are natives from a village nearby, and they cut down most the trees etc. Sure there being forced too by the evil and cruel bosses, but that's not the point. His George can get rid of the workers, these bosses will leave, won't they? So George then stakes out the village nearby. The villagers seem to have been living in harmony with nature since the dawn of time, but thats just a trick. What human could really live in harmony with nature? Hah! At this point George changes focus in his quest. Its these villagers who are destroying the forest. If they can keep up this masquerade of peacefulness, they could have manipulated the building of the highway. There the main workers arn't they? So George waits until a fuel truck comes along, steals it and drives the truck into the village. He then blows it up, destroying the village and killing everyone in it(except the men folk who slept at the camp.) He leaves to continue his mission, perhaps burning the oil fields in the middle-east. The fire from the village spreads, destroying more rainforest then the highway would have. Environmentalist terrorist are blamn, causing negative feeling in general about all those "damn greenies". And the Highway is built anyway. Example Two: George has studied the USA for awhile now, and has noticed a major problem. Much of the damage done to america is because of cars and highways. But why do cars cause so much polution. Because of the fuel they burn! Ah!! George thinks, that's the real threat. But oil, and petrol etc comes from so many places around the world. Its to big for just one fallen angel. Besides, his main aim is to protect the U.S.A. But petrolum(sp?) is transported by ship. Its the weakest link in the chain. So George stocks up on explosives, rents a small boat, and goes on a sucide mission, ramming his boat full of explosives into a fuel tanker. The ship sinks, and George takes another vessel. But thousands of litres of oil is spilt across the ocean, causing untold damage to the sea. And it will happen again and again, has George earns his word in Explosive Speed Boats. I don't know if the above really fits into the Habbalah mind set, but I hope its of some interest. Bryce Bringer of Chocolete Death ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:35:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > >>>Just to start off on the more abstract note, one of the reasons I > LIKE to be `down on Dom' is because, personally, I don't like the idea > that the Angels are necessarily all nice people doing good deeds. A lot > Of course, this is a basic premise of the game. None of it contradicts what > I was saying, in fact, it supports it. Well, no, it doesn't specifically do either; that's just the general groundwork for how I feel about the matter. (Honestly, I'm not TRYING to `contradict' what you're saying, on the whole...just explain one reason, at least, why someone takes Dominic with a darker tone. I think we've ALL made the point at least once by now that anyone can read any Archangel or Demon Prince in whatever way suits them best, haven't we?) > I'm not arguing that Dominic is a nice guy, nor that people should like > him. He's not very likeable. I'm arguing that he's not the petty, > vindictive bastard he's often made out to be. Actually, I haven't seen ANYONE make him out to be petty. Vindictive, yes - that's his job. > The fact that they can't inflict a punishment greater than the crime kind > of implies that there is a standard by which this can be measured, at least Kind of implies? I don't see it...what standard do you see being kind of implied? > As for what standard they use, I'd go with the Biblical one, since Dominic > tends to favor Old Testament justice. This standard is usually harsh, but > not absurd. Eye for an eye, not head for a stolen candy bar.... So...what, then? A stolen candy bar for a stolen candy bar? Or do you go ahead in good Old Testament style and take the one step back from the head, chopping off the hand? Personally, *I* consider that a little harsh...(and I'll say again, there's a decent case for the head. Cut off the hand, and you leave them every opportunity to commit, at best, other crimes...you already KNOW they're a criminal.) > True. He Judges according to the prevailing standard -- he's had his OWN > standards changed on him a couple of times (like when God intervened with > Michael.) He accepts it, and operates within whatever framework is given to Well, he accepted it the one time God Himself stepped in, yes. The time Yves and Michael stepped in, on the other hand, he didn't...and he judges according to HIS standard, not necessarily the prevailing one. > Actually, he tells people who is and isn't following the rules. He infers > what the rules are from what he understands of God's plan. He can make As I said. Among other things, he has `inferred' that Christianity is the way to go, and taken some considerable efforts to that end. > overruled a couple times in a few thousand years is hardly the record of a > rogue judge.... Again; never called him a `rogue' judge. Just a scary one, and a fanatical one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 05:31:18 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > It was "The Abyss Gazes Also," which was a small bit from the same quote, but a different, less accurate, more poetic translation. "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster. And if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." The important difference being that Nietzsche didn't say "Battle not with monsters," he said "be careful when you do so." An important difference. . .but the Watchmen quote sounds cooler. Hell, everything in the Watchmen is cooler. < That may or may not be so but Nietzsche's advice is more useful to Paladins, Wizards and Angels than the watchman quote. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com "And who shall watch the watchmen?" :-Yves "Dominic and Nietsche" :- God "Nietzsche?" :- Yves "After he's finished practicing on Airstrip One" :- God "Don't you think that might be a little rash concidering his views on you?" :- Yves "Well if he doesn't work out we can always get Yoda to help out." :- God "Micheal will just love being told that one should only attach not defend.":- Yves "Lawrence though will do well with 'try matters not, there is only do or not do'.":- God "And Lucifer?" :- Yves "You begin to approach the core of the matter.":- God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 05:31:13 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN>Malakim of Creation >From: Elizabeth McCoy At 9:29 AM -0500 7/16/97, Oscar Rodriguez wrote: [...] >"Anything they pick up can be used as a weapon with a power equal >to the check digit of a successful Perception roll, for the length >of a single combat." > >The problem is does the character receive penalties to use such a >weapon. The weapon skills all require specifics. So should he >come up with small weapons (spoon) or should we go broad with >small weapon (blunt)? Or do we drop that all together given the >nature of his attunement? I'd probably base it on his Corporeal Fighting skill, myself, with a Power-bonus (i.e., damage bonus) equal to the check digit. Or Throwing skill, if tossing spoons like shurikin. Yes, you get scary things like a spoon with a +6 Power. Creative Malakite-players will find some way to explain this... (Why am I reminded of that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" movie scene, about her being saved by her impeccable fashion sense? Hairspray and a lighter...)< My self I would substitute Precision or Perception for the skill roll required, working on the assumption that most of the Malakim of creation effects are either the Quantum Weather Butterfly trick [ using Perception to spot the point that chaos theory will cause the weapon to have an effect that is not usually causally related to its use, i.e the Malakim waves his fan at you and all the nitrogeon molecules in your lungs decide to go on vacation to you blood supply and give you the Bends] or the judicous application of force to achieve his ends[ Precision, ie Throw the playing card just right to trigger the funny bone effect on the targets solar plexius or hit some one with the polystyrene cup in such a way as they rupture a gut laughing.] These guys are supposed to be creative. But personally I am not sure about the argument that says I use my resonance to pick up teh worst thing he did last week and then I use that As a weapon against Him. Though that does leave the concept of the Malakim going so you pushed an old granny under a bus, I shall now use that to tease you to death as a Power 6 weapon. Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com Guns don't kill people, People kill People. or alternatively Bullets can kill people but Cream pies are usually far more effective for us. :- Malakin of Creation recruiting among Kobal's minions ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 05:31:22 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Seraphic resonance >>>>Don't believe me? Try this thought experiment. A Seraph goes and gets a buddy and asks him if Jesus was God Incarnate. The Seraph's buddy, who doesn't know, says "Yes." Now, if the Seraph were able to unerringly determine if this were true or false he would now know if Jesus was god incarnate, even though the person he was talking to didn't know.<<< < I believe in this case the first paragraph in the game mechanics section makes it clear that the truth is not necesserily fixed nor are the seraphs given this power for this purpose. Since unless the friend met Jesus and had some proof that he was god incarnate all the seraph is getting is an opinion and that cannot be measured against a universal truth even though there is a universal truth. As a side matter most seraphim are unlikely to want to know what God is upto since if he wanted them to know he would have told them and if they know then they are going to get in trouble with their duty to maintain the important secrets. Alternatively one can pull the that truth is not hidden in men's hearts so you can't find it there or That truth is to big for you to comprehend [Al la the character in one of the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy books who was sworn to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and promptly did so and equaly promptly forgot most of it as a method of staying sane.] The note to players that this is a dangerous power to use gives you an out on things like resonance feedback or just falling over smoking at the ears if it is important to the plot not to tell the characters the Truth. As long as you make it clear that some bits of the symphony are dangerous to listen to or so peculiar as to be incomprehensible. Ie. Does God Know what is going on? God is watching Dimeon Wu. God does not need to act in a causal fasfion so questions of what he is doing or what he knows can have large logical gaps in them. since god does not need to know what is going on now more have a feeling for what it will do. [This is based on Ars Magica Guardian Angels who can tell you that you should do some thing but not how that will achieve the end result they want for you, let alone exactly what that result is.] It would I think upset the Seraph to discover that as far as god is concerned the symphony is just a combination of God and Lucifer's opinions of the truth and thus no Truths directly involving god can be gathered by their resonance . Adam Canning Dahak@Compuserve.Com What is truth asked jesting Pilate but would not wait for an answer. :- Pam Ayres? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 05:31:26 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >Precisely....Dominic takes the stance (shared by many Earthly theologians ) that there IS an objective morality.... as opposed to the philosophy more popular in the West right now that everything is relative. Since most people in the U.S. have been brought up on cultural relativity and subjective morality, of course Dominic seems like a narrow-minded hard-ass. < All the word bound angels in In Nomine believe that there is an objective morality. They just disagree as to what it is. Gabriel is as bad as dominic in that respect. Dominic belives in order over all. Gabriel believes in exterminating the cruel. Lawrence believes Honour over comes all. Micheal believes All's Fair in War Blandine believes the world is just a dream from which all must eventually wake. David believes there is no unacceptable level of brutality. Eli believes in the triumph of will over entropy. Janus believes in change over stagnation. Jean believes in control of information Jordi believes in nature red in tooth and claw. Litheroy believes Information wants to be free. Marc believes in the deal Novalis believes that every one has a good side to them. Yves believes in that will come will come. Each sees part of the truth but none can represent all of the truth. They each exist to provide a facet of God's plan. Which by definition is ineffable and therefore cannot be understood by lesser beings such as Archangels. See the Metranon in Good Omens for an example. On the Gabriel vs Dominic trial It is dissonant for servitors of Judgement to overlook what they feel to be heresy in an Angel and the early years of the Islamic faith caused a lot of disorder. So Dominic thought that Gabriel who after all was the entity who acted as opposed to planned the conversations with Mohammed was most guilty. For much the same reason he doesn't like Eli's current stance that his angels should learn to use their initiative and fight Hell creatively. No Chain of command, no orders, not even a cell structure, this is anarchy and therefore must be stampted out. By the Way of course Players are going to hate him he provides a standard to measure themselves against and it is one they are bound to do badly at. By modern american standards all angels are bad. [They want you to be chaste,hetrosexual, temperate, Marc excepted they think that capatilism is wrong [It encourages Greed and Selfish behaviour],they don't like betting, profligacy, Teleevangalists, Atheism or Freedom of Speech. ] On the other wing, most demons are good. [They want you to have fun and worry about the consequences later, They like Voodoo Economics, promiscuity, nonconventional choices of sexual partner, Hustler Magazine, Alcohol, Hire Purchase, Saying whatever you feel like and of course the end to any concept of a national health service, The National Rifle Assossiation's rather illogical interpretation of the second amendment to the US constitution as a call for every citizem to own all the fire power they can afford and some more they have to go into debt for. They loved Marget Thatcher's doctrine of there is no such thing as society.] So its not suprising that Dominic and Lawrence who stand more than the other angels for a code of behaviour get written off as an unpleasent Judge Dredd impersonater and a prissy wimp with no idea of the real world. Many of the statements above are intended for their satirical or ironic content and do not constitute an accurate statement of the authour's personal beliefs. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.Com Dominicans _ Black Friars founded by St Dominic in 1220 to spread the faith and combat the Catharist Heresy through superior learning and the power of arguement. The tribunal of the inquisition was entrusted to them. Notible Dominicans include Peter the Martyr and Thomas Aquinas :- Mtford's Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend. By his works shall you know him. :-Various ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:36:18 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: Lilim in the Hospital (Was: Re: IN> Back to celestial populations At 10:31 -0600 7/20/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >(Nadine had, in part, inspired in me the idea of a Lilim running a little >curiosity shop called `No Cash Needed'...where you can just walk in and >get, or at least order, virtually anything you need. For free. For >now... 'Course, the idea went on with the thought of Nybbas's >people working the area into an absolute frenzy trying to get one >particular toy for their children, which you could only get at this one >shop...not only do the Angels have to figure out what's going on and stop >it, but when they do, they're splashed all over the news as the grinches >who stole Christmas.) That kind of reminds me of Stephen King's "Needful Things"...at least, the parts of it that I saw on TNT one hungover Saturday morning...:) "Wow, a Mickey Mantle baseball card! How much?!" "Free, kid." <> "I remember being a kid growing up, always looking for the good cards..." A few days later... "Like the card, kid?" "Yeah!" "Well, if you want to keep it, I need a favor..." (no, that's not a quote, just something I thought up...remembering the kid and his baseball card in "Needful Things", then being asked to throw apples through the windows...) SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #253 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.