From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 24 02:47:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA02404 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA32179 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:43:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:43:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199707240543.AAA32179@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #257 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 257 In this digest: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) IN> Eli (no longer Dominic....) Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Secrets of the Universe IN> Missing issues? IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) Re: IN> Eli (no longer Dominic....) Re: IN> Dominic, Again Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: Why Mix Superiors? (Re: IN> Malakim of Creation) Re: IN> Malakim of Creation Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) IN> Dark In Nomine IN> Dark In Nomine IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy IN> Was: Truth of the Universe or something... Re: IN> Dark In Nomine Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 14:32 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) >I wonder - if a Kyriotate possesses a demon, picks a fight with it's >body, and then leaves it, bloody and damaged, does he get Dissonance? > By the book the answer is yes, but my feeling is otherwise. I would say yes, probably, but can see it going either way. The only justification for the negative side that I can see is that a vessel is not part of the Symphony. (That would also be consistent with the Mercurian dissonance, which I believe refers specifically to humans and not other celestials.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 14:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Eli (no longer Dominic....) >> >Angels don't seem to care about lovers or minor "sins" such as extramarital >> >sex; they're more worried about the War as a whole. If a man and his >> >girlfriend (for example) have sex, they won't care. >> >> Actually, Eli does care -- it falls under his word. > >> And despite his generally laid-back attitude, he might actually dislike >> homosexuality slightly, but only because it doesn't create children. > > This would certainly make him more interesting. There is a danger in In >Nomine to end up with a division between "Good" Archangels and "Bad" >Archangels. Politics is much more interesting when there is something to >be said for and against each. Giving Novalis an opposition to abortion >might be interesting - as would giving her an opposition to marriage... I don't know about Novalis, but I can certainly see Eli opposing abortion -- that's essentially directly in opposition to his Word. There's some implication (in his summoning modifiers) that he may be opposed to birth control, too. Though I can't see him being fanatical about it -- he has to have enough sense that he'd see that destroying the world through overpopulation is not a Good Thing. (And it's pretty clear he's not in favor of abstinance....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:01:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) At 8:52 PM +0000 7/22/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> > Impudite's social status, etc.; and the Kyriotate could ATTEMPT >> > TO TAKE OVER THE DEMON! (Well, that answers *that* question about >> > celestials possessing other celestials...) [...] >I wonder - if a Kyriotate possesses a demon, picks a fight with its >body, and then leaves it, bloody and damaged, does he get Dissonance? > By the book the answer is yes, but my feeling is otherwise. The trick is to get the demon-body *started* doing something dangerous, and bail out just before the train hits the vessel... Walk up to the thug, for instance, insult his momma, and then possess someone else in the area, leaving the demon standing and blinking in front of this 300lb (all muscle) guy in leather, chains and tattoos. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Coon" Subject: Re: IN> Secrets of the Universe On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > >According to the rules, Seraphim discover the Truth of any statement > >if they get a 6 on their check digit. And yes, they can just go and > >ask a bunch of people at random and the law of averages says they're > >going to get the secrets of the universe real quick, according to the > >rules. > > I think this comes down to a GM call sort of thing to stop such things. One > possibility: > > "You divine the Truth of the Matter, and then, just as suddenly, you forget > it. You here a voice in your head saying, 'Don't do that again.'" > > Perhaps God *wants* certain things to remain hidden. > -Loki Actually, the information on the Archangel of Revelation indicates strongly that secrets are Not Good. But of course it also indicates that the secret of the Symphony is one that *must* be kept for the safety of all. Of course, some of those answers may result in others just looking at the Seraph and saying, "Yes, and...?" My answer: just be cryptic. Explain things in concepts the character can't understand (make up gibberish). After all, an answer is just a prompt for more questions. It should be entirely true, just incomprehensible. Either that, or the answer is infinite. Just keep jabbering until the player gets bored... Just my penny (I'm not smart enough to put in two cents) Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:07:36 +0300 From: Tommi Putkonen Subject: IN> Missing issues? Hello everyone. I was just browsing through the old digests and I couldn't find the issues 1-12 - 1-30 from anywhere. Is this some demonic work of Nybbas or what's the catch? - -- ======================================================= = Tommi Putkonen = tputkone@cc.joensuu.fi = = Servant of Cthulhu = http://cc.joensuu.fi/~tputkone = ======================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:16:41 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:19:46 +0000 >From: "Nathaniel Eliot" [snip] >Demons could do angst, if they weren't written as so irredeamably >bad. Of the Demons, my favorites are the Djinn and the Lilim, >because they don't seem all that committed to evil. My least >favorite are the Shedim - alien as the Kyriotate are, I can't see one >realistically being a Redeemed Shedim. Shedim are pure evil, and >fairly mindless, as well. I'd been thinking about this too. To me, it seems virtually impossible for a Shedim to get Redeemed. Take the case of Joe Shedim. After being sent to Earth, he has become extremely disgruntled, and gone renegade. Now he wants to be redeemed. Unfortunately, while he's on Earth, he has to occupy a body. If he doesn't he gets dragged back to Hell, which is the last place such a Demon wants to go. He's also got to keep corrupting his hosts. Failing to do so gets him Dissonance, and Dissonance lowers his chance of grabbing a New host when time's up, unless it's converted to Discord, which has its own problems. If he wants to stay on Earth, and be Redeemed, he has to successfully balance the individual harm and the greater good that he does long enough to attract the attention and gain the trust of an Archangel. No other Band is forced by their nature to hurt people. Bright Lilim may be rare, but I think Redeemed Shedim are at least as uncommon. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:57:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Eli (no longer Dominic....) At 2:38 PM -0400 7/23/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >>> >Angels don't seem to care about lovers or minor "sins" such as extramarital >>> >sex; they're more worried about the War as a whole. If a man and his >>> >girlfriend (for example) have sex, they won't care. >>> >>> Actually, Eli does care -- it falls under his word. >> >>> And despite his generally laid-back attitude, he might actually dislike >>> homosexuality slightly, but only because it doesn't create children. (Though that would be in humans, primarily -- celestials don't have gender, and what they do with what vessels is probably fine; if they want kids, they'll go up and create relievers or whatever...) >> This would certainly make him more interesting. There is a danger in In >>Nomine to end up with a division between "Good" Archangels and "Bad" >>Archangels. Politics is much more interesting when there is something to >>be said for and against each. Giving Novalis an opposition to abortion >>might be interesting - as would giving her an opposition to marriage... > >I don't know about Novalis, but I can certainly see Eli opposing >abortion -- that's essentially directly in opposition to his Word. >There's some implication (in his summoning modifiers) that he may be >opposed to birth control, too. (Either that, or regards the displaying of same as an invitation. ) >Though I can't see him being fanatical about it -- he has to have >enough sense that he'd see that destroying the world through >overpopulation is not a Good Thing. (And it's pretty clear he's >not in favor of abstinance....) At the least, I would figure that "creating" a relationship (which would likely lead to raising kids (not necessarily genetically parented by the people in the relationship) in a happy environment) would be enough to get at *least* a grudging, "well, that's cool then." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:37:03 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Dominic, Again At 01:43 AM 7/22/97 -0600, you wrote: > You know, the more I think of it, the more I like > my original interpretation of Dominic: > > He's young. > > Alright, he's been around for 2000 years or so, that > we can presume. Heavenly duty -- he hasn't had to deal > with the unusual circumstances of corporal Earth duty > all that much. He's...aware of it, but he knows where > his job is. > > And, being a Seraph, he's DETERMINED to do what's right. > He was given a WORD. And, for God's sake , he's > going to perform his duties to his utmost. > I like this version of Dominic. I don't think he'll get played this way much but if he was, *I* might play a servator of Dominic (much as that might shock a couple of you ). Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:14:28 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) At 08:52 PM 7/22/97 +0000, you wrote: >> > Impudite's social status, etc.; and the Kyriotate could ATTEMPT >> > TO TAKE OVER THE DEMON! (Well, that answers *that* question about >> > celestials possessing other celestials...) >> >I wonder - if a Kyriotate possesses a demon, picks a fight with it's >body, and then leaves it, bloody and damaged, does he get Dissonance? > By the book the answer is yes, but my feeling is otherwise. > I would think that the Kyrio *would* gain Dissonance. It might not be convenient at the time but it *is* their nature to protect their host. Such thoughts would be very dangerous to a Kyrio. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:05:26 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation At 12:44 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Actually, I would nix the wet-noodle bit from the outset. No rules needed. >> Though given enough time, the MoE could so a MacGuyver. >> >> Hmmm.... MacGuyver as a MoE.... > > No way! MacGadgetman _never_ makes weapons. That's right now that I think about it. I stopped watching after he used a chocolate bar to fix a nuclear power plant. I mean, sheesh... ...what a waste of good chocolate.... I'm >almost certain he's a Mercurian of some sort. A Mercurian >of Eli possibly? > Maybe that guy from that new show... ...Spy Games(?). BA from the A-Team would probably be a MoE though. And Murdock, an Ofanim of Janus...? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:58:05 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #252 At 12:20 PM 7/21/97 EDT, you wrote: >>> I wonder if there was a little more to it - for example, why was she >>> accepting an order from Yves? He could have done that recitation himself, >>> after all. >> >>Yves knew this would irritate Dominic, and therefore got Gabriel to do >>it. > >I can't see Yves doing this -- he seems least likely of all the >Archangels to be petty. I see the whole Islam bit as being an example >that even Yves makes mistakes -- *he's* not infallible. > I'm not so sure that Yves would consider it a mistake. Islam is one of the biggest religions on earth. Also, from my experience, the average Muslim is more likely to follow the tennants of his faith than the average Christian or Jew. No I'm not Muslim, and I don't really think that that kind of obedience is such a good thing but Yves might have other ideas. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:13:04 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy At 03:17 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>>Actually, I haven't seen ANYONE make him out to be petty. >Vindictive, yes - that's his job.<<< > >Some people have suggested Dominic is persecuting Eli and Gabriel because >of a personal grudge, and that he went after Michael for similar reasons. I >see him as being more impersonal than that. > >Dominic is NOT still persecuting Gabriel for the founding of Islam-- he's >accepted that. He's investigating her now because of all the things she's >done *since* leaving Heaven. > Gee.... I'll persecute you then when they stop me from doing that, I'll persecute you for being pissed off that I persecuted you. Sounds like someone *I* want in charge of Judgement. Beyond redemption? Has he ever tried apologizing? OTOH, maybe that puts her beyond redemption since he doesn't seem likely to fix his mistakes or even acknowledge them. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:54:32 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-l@lists.io.com At 03:25 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:25 PM -0400 7/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>At 10:31 PM 7/19/97 +0500, you wrote: >>>> At the mention of manga, I had a horrible vision of a Malakite and a >>>>Calabite going at it just like A-Ko and B-Ko (lobbing tanks around, etc). >>>> >>>> Would a tank qualify as a Large Weapon? :P >>> >>>In A-Ko's case, a tank falls under Throwing. >>> >>C-Ko, would have to be one heck of a Lilim. > >UGH! Nah, she's an Impudite -- with a constantly "on" Charm field. >Mind you, she has no Ethereal Forces... > Gee, hi Beth... Unless, she set this all up beforehand and everyone is acting on geases.... She'd have to be pretty crafty but she *does* have a back history with everyone who's after her (at least in the first movie). Maybe her whole plan all along was to destroy Tokyo.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:10:32 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Resonating Celestials (Re: Seraph resonance) At 06:28 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >>that would mean >>concentrating the Kyrio all in one place. It's not specifically MENTIONED >>under their Dissonance, but that's a clear step towards Shedim... > >I don't think so -- it's not an easy thing for them, mayhap, but >being "just one person" at a time probably isn't risking dissonance. >Now, if they got *addicted* to that or something... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh, Ick. >(Besides, if it's a 10-force Kyrio or a 7-force demon, the Kyrio >wouldn't have a problem. Take the Demon, walk it to the >nearest Heaven-Tether, let it loose there... "Hi!") > Walk into a Tether of Michael and start a discussion with the Senshal about creative things to do to an Impudite and then ask him to gather the stuff that's needed. When he asks why, grin and say "because I'm in one." Or think of the fun a KoY could have with one.... Or a KoG summons Gabriel, "Hey! Gaby, got a present for ya." Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:26:58 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation At 02:56 AM 7/22/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:32:31, Jeff Miller wrote: > >>Why would an Archangel *want* angels from another Arch? Their own way is >>much better isn't it? > >Different capabilities. > How does that make anyone else different from Eli's Servators (or Lilim for that matter)? To whom do the angels report? Does that mean that a Servator of Jordi must follow an order that will devistate an area of wildlands just because Michael who is hiring the Servator from Jordi spotted a nest of demons hiding out in it? Aside from the Eli case, the only Archangel who has the athority to give orders to another's servator is Lawrance. Now I can see Jordi saying, "Go help Michael's group get rid of those demons but make sure they behave themselves in the forrest." That is a far cry from Jordi saying, "You work for Michael for the time being." The first way makes much more sense since it gives the Archangels access to angels of different capabilities but it lets them retain control of their own angels. By everything I've read in the book, a Servator is a large investment made by the Archangel. They shouldn't be so willing to give them up. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:27:38 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: Why Mix Superiors? (Re: IN> Malakim of Creation) At 03:10 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:32 PM -0400 7/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>At 12:59 AM 7/19/97 GMT, you wrote: >>>Just FWIW, my take has been that a player's Archangel orders him to serve >>>some other Archangel, and generally all the PCs serve the Archangel(s) >>>appropriate to the task they're assigned. IOW, the GM says, "Ok, your >>>Archangels have all assigned you to work for Novalis this month." I pick >>>Novalis just to scare the hell out of my own players. ;) >>> >> >> >>Wouldn't bother me none. >> >>However, I think that most non-Eli angels work only for their own >>Archangel. They may be ordered to cooperate with angels of other >>Archangels but they are, ultimatly, following the orders of and responsible >>to their own Archangel. >> >>Why would an Archangel *want* angels from another Arch? Their own way is >>much better isn't it? > >If it's only a temporary loan, they might want someone who >could "bend the rules" of dissonance conditions... Say you're >one of David's, and your Soldier-pals are getting mowed down by >this demon-led gang with guns. Grit the teeth and call in >the angel of Creation in service to Stone -- and hand him an Uzi. > >At least you get to see the surprised expression on the enemy's >face when a "Servitor of Stone" grins and opens fire... > >When Fate is getting tricky, sometimes you want someone who >can read Destiny, but who won't get too hurt if they accidentily >help Fate. > >And those are reasons to want angels of Creation working for you. >Sometimes it's simpler to just call in your good buddies who >work for someone else, and get synergy... > Granted but I was under the impression that he was talking about all angels not just Servators of Eli. I just don't see David saying to Michael, "can I have one of your angels for a while." And Michael actually *giving* him one. I can see Michael telling one of his Servitors to go work *with* David but not *for* David. It seems too much like trading Servitors like cards in a Magic: the Gathering game. They're angels, not pawns. They represent the angel they serve. I would imagine that most Archangels would have propriatory feelings toward their Servitors. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:06:56 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Malakim of Creation At 03:23 AM 7/22/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:38:42, Jeff Miller wrote: > >>So if you are in a room full of crowbars fighting demons and you get a CD >>of 3, you can pick up any crowbar and use it at Power/3. > >You can pick one up and use it at crowbar-power, whatever that's decided to >be. Maybe they're only crowbar/2 that you need small weapon for; but >there's a pile forming a crowbar-caltrop/3 that you can use fighting to >throw someone onto. You'll have to choose based on which opportunity is >most advantageous for you. > >>In in a later fight in another room with crowbars in it, if you get a CD of >>2 then you don't notice any crowbars in it? > >If they're the same type crowbars, I'll give you the same power. > For how long. How long do you remember the poewr for every single thing he gets his hands on? And that totally negates the situational aspects of the objects. Sometimes, he might be able to see a way to use a letter opener as a weapon/6 other times, in different situations, he may only be able to use it as a weapon/1 (or not as a weapon at all). >>What about the ability to create matter? If a MoE uses a 2x4/6 against a >>demon, does that mean that in later combats that he can create a 2x4 and >>know that he'll get a Power/6 weapon? > >Wood would be Novalis' domain. This isn't *Mage*. Besides look at those attunements a bit harder. One of them allows the servant of Eli to change things into organic or even living substances. You could create iron. I don't know if you >can shape it well. The rules don't say, but improvising: It would depend on >your skill in Artistry (scupting). I'd be tempted to give you the lower of >the power of the weapon you perceived (crowbar, sword, whatever) and the >check digit of the Artistry roll. Or, you could ask the demon nicely to >wait while you go do a machine shop to get your metal shaped. Some demons >might agree. :) > So, a MoE could create a weapon of a given Power? Why would he ever give it up then? If that MoE finds a 2x4/6, why would he ever put it down? That's why the rules state that the MoE rolls for an object each time he gets into combat. It's not to discover a bigger weapon it's to see how creatively he can use an item as a weapon in a situation. I can see tweeking rules to get rid of exploitable situations but doing so to create them? >>I think that the rules, as stated in the book, make much more sense if you >>consider that a MoE might actually be *creative*. > >Absolutely. Still, if demons pick the battleground, they may try to >restrict your options; they may or may not succeed. I'll give you full use >of your attunements within reason but not stupid demons that are going to >ignore what they know of your capabilities (when and if they learn of >them). "Be afraid. Be very afraid." :) > True. That would be their goal. The MoE's strength is that he might see weapons where the demon might not. ...and he can always create a big rock over it's head.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:45:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) At 5:16 PM -0400 7/23/97, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: [...] > I'd been thinking about this too. To me, it seems virtually >impossible for a Shedim to get Redeemed. [...] > He's also got to keep corrupting his hosts. Failing to do so gets >him Dissonance, and Dissonance lowers his chance of grabbing a New host >when time's up, unless it's converted to Discord, which has its own >problems. If he wants to stay on Earth, and be Redeemed, he has to >successfully balance the individual harm and the greater good that he does >long enough to attract the attention and gain the trust of an Archangel. No >other Band is forced by their nature to hurt people. Bright Lilim may be >rare, but I think Redeemed Shedim are at least as uncommon. Lessee... Asmodeus' (!!) don't have to "wear out their welcome" by corrupting the host. One of Beleth's might be able to run to the other side of the Marches. A Shedite of Belial might take up residence in some fire that didn't ever get put out, but that's getting pretty dubious... Shedim of Death can wander around in corpses... And Shedim of Valefor don't *need* a host (if you really want to be a big target for all the celestials in the area...). Shedim of Technology can stay in their laptop. And those are the only ones who wouldn't *necessarily* have to walk *quite* as narrow a tightrope... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:16:04 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > > Dominic doesn't just "practice" Judgment, or "impose" Judgment, or > > "create > > his own standard of" Judgment...he IS Judgment. Just as Michael IS > > War, and Gabriel IS Fire. > > At least, the heavenly concept of them. Gabriel is God's idea of > Fire - but Belial is what Lucifer thinks Fire should be. Or rather, Belial is what Belial thinks fire should be, and Lucifer agrees... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords. - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:16:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > > Oh, fair warning: I'm a big WOD goob. > > > > Glad to here it. Too few WOD goobs realise how good In Nomine could be > > for them. Welcome aboard! > > I like to think of myself as omnivorous when it comes to gaming. If I see > a concept I like, I shamelessly steal it to integrate into my games. Thats what this (my Dark In Nomine) is turning into - so far sources include In Nomine, GURPS Voodoo, GURPS Vampire (because I don't have, or especially need, the original), Werewolf: the Wild West (because it was thicker than W:tA for the same price), Werewolf Players Guide, GURPS Mage: the Ascension, GURPS Martial Arts, and smatterings of Shadowrun. More may come, if it fits well. > Of course, I'm -still- hacking at Precedence's _Immortal: the Invisible > War_, but it'll port over eventually. I can feel it. ;) If I do Immortals (which I think I'll avoid - they are really cool only by themselves), I'll hack at the Highland: the Gathering netrules. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com I seem to have forgotten what families are actually for...Families seem to be a form of SM relationships without safewords. - Neil Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:14:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim (Was: Dark In Nomine) On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > A Shedite of Belial might take up residence in some fire that > didn't ever get put out, but that's getting pretty dubious... There's an Eternal Flame in Arlington Nation Cemetary, I believe. For the Kennedy monument if momory serves. Then there's the sacred fire in Greece that lights all Olympic torches. Plus all those semi-active volcanos, if one allows lava. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:20:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy > David Edelstein wrote: > > > Dominic doesn't just "practice" Judgment, or "impose" Judgment, or > > "create > > his own standard of" Judgment...he IS Judgment. Just as Michael IS > > War, and > > Gabriel IS Fire. > > At least, the heavenly concept of them. Gabriel is God's idea of > Fire - but Belial is what Lucifer thinks Fire should be. > They had better have at least *some* free will apart from God's concepts because God is perfect and archangels are sometimes wrong. If Dominic was God's idea of Judgement, I don't think he would ever lose a case. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > > > Hello, all. Consider this an official de-lurk, even though I joined the list > > yesterday. ;) > > > > Oh, fair warning: I'm a big WOD goob. > > Glad to here it. Too few WOD goobs realise how good In Nomine could be > for them. Welcome aboard! I would just like to point out that my above statement does not, in fact, include a spelling mistake that would shame a two year old. It was just that I thought that it would make a WOD goob feel at home if I gave him some text that was not only just not proofread, but was actually mangled. Yeah...that's it... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:13:42 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dark In Nomine >>>I'm of the school that states "There's always something more powerful than you in the campaign world." I mean, if the PCs are the most powerful, then what's the point of playing?<<< The argument wasn't that the Player Characters are personally the most powerful beings in the universe, but that what they represent are-- celestials. I think the point about putting WoD-style Mages into In Nomine is a very good one. As it stands, celestials are fighting a War in which humans have an important role to play (unlike the WoD, where humans are irrelevant), but it's often in a different theater. Add human mages capable of routinely smoking demons and celestials, and suddenly the celestials and what they do isn't nearly as important. This is the same reason why I'm against the notion of God being a former Ethereal Spirit who just happened to elevate himself above all the other pagan gods. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:13:42 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dark In Nomine >>>I'm of the school that states "There's always something more powerful than you in the campaign world." I mean, if the PCs are the most powerful, then what's the point of playing?<<< The argument wasn't that the Player Characters are personally the most powerful beings in the universe, but that what they represent are-- celestials. I think the point about putting WoD-style Mages into In Nomine is a very good one. As it stands, celestials are fighting a War in which humans have an important role to play (unlike the WoD, where humans are irrelevant), but it's often in a different theater. Add human mages capable of routinely smoking demons and celestials, and suddenly the celestials and what they do isn't nearly as important. This is the same reason why I'm against the notion of God being a former Ethereal Spirit who just happened to elevate himself above all the other pagan gods. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:13:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic is not a Bad Guy >>>It can go either way. Either they're all held strictly to Dominic's view (whatever the GM decides that may be), or, like the Malakim choosing their Oaths, each Servitor of Judgment has their own standard.<<< No way. Dominic, Mr. "One Standard Fits All", is NOT going to let each and every one of his Servitors make up their own standards of Judgment.... >>>Matter of opinion, though I'll note again that there's no significant evidence that Gabriel WAS insane before Dominic drove her there...he's CERTAINLY the reason she left Heaven.<<< Upcoming supplements will be clarifying a lot of these issues. >>>Well, yes, I'm sure that's HIS answer. I'm not so sure Michael, say, would agree.<<< Why wouldn't he? Michael isn't going to deny Dominic is the Archangel of Judgment. He simply chose not to follow Dominic's rules-- in effect, thumbing his nose at the younger Seraph. Dominic put him on trial, and remember, God didn't say Dominic was *wrong*, just that, in effect, Michael's virtues outweighed any alleged sins. Now, Michael doesn't LIKE Dominic-- he's pretty open about the fact that he doesn't like the way Heaven is being run currently. But he does recognize that this IS how it's being run currently. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:28:03 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Was: Truth of the Universe or something... >"You divine the Truth of the Matter, and then, just as suddenly, you forget >it. You here a voice in your head saying, 'Don't do that again.'" Either that, or the Malakim in Black show up.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:53:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine > > > Yeah, well, some of us would rather NOT see In Nomine become "Celestials: > The Angst'ing." ;) > Actually, judging from this list I think there are quite a *lot*. This makes things difficult for SJG, because there is a much wider variety of feels they need to cater to to keep In Nomine fans happy. I can't really think of any other game that inspires such dispirate playing styles. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:50:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Dark In Nomine (was Dominic is not a Bad Guy) > > > > Oh, fair warning: I'm a big WOD goob. > > > > Glad to here it. Too few WOD goobs realise how good In Nomine could be > > for them. Welcome aboard! > > I like to think of myself as omnivorous when it comes to gaming. If I see > a concept I like, I shamelessly steal it to integrate into my games. Cool! I hope you have discovered GURPS, because you may need it. > > Of course, I'm -still- hacking at Precedence's _Immortal: the Invisible > War_, but it'll port over eventually. I can feel it. ;) I'm not really up on that one. > > > I know that they were to have more status than angels, and even, IIRC, > > that in the Koran, angels had to bow down to Adam and Eve, but I never > > thought there was any question of humans having more raw power than > > angels. > > Raw power? Not at all. But take a look at the WOD games and IN, and > you'll find they all revolve around a common theme: humans. You know, > those non-powered folk who still manage to drive more powerful vampries > into hiding, create the consensus of reality, and even manage to turn the > tables on Celestials now and then. > > My point here is that while humanity is without raw power, it still has > tremendous influence. Heck, a good case could be put forth for humanity > having been the reason behind the war in heaven, and we weren't even > created yet! How's that for influential? That's fine - I have no problems with it. What worried me were individuals that had more supernatural power than an angel or demon. That, to me, would get in the way of the feel. There are mages all right in my In Nomine, but they are either demonic dupes, servants of lost causes sitting in The Marches, or simply schollars who are more powerful than other mortals, but nowhere near as tough as celestials. You can find Faust all right, and maybe even some hero who tricked a demon and won, but you won't find anyone who takes a celestial on in a one to one fight and wins. > > It's not what we can do....it's what we're -worth-. Actually, my problem was with what we can do. In my game, humanity is what the war is over - they are supremely important. But the real power stems from upstairs and downstairs. > (I detect a tanget regarding "do angels have/need souls" approaching, but > I'll save that for later.) Its worth thinking about, I agree. > [snip] > I'm of the school that states "There's always something more powerful > than you in the campaign world." I mean, if the PCs are the most powerful, > then what's the point of playing? Oh, I agree with that. But anything more powerful is probably another celestial - and the *most* powerful things are definately celestials. > > It all comes down to -application- of said power. Clearly, there's no > point to having an NPC wipe the floor with a party, but I don't have to > use mages for that. I can use a Superior to accomplish the exact same > thing and still stay within the confines of the game. Which is what I do. > > > Perhaps another > > example might be closer to your heart. Imagine if in the Mage campaign I > > am running (I am, for real), I introduce a new type of individual called a > > Schmage, much like a Mage but with the power to effortlessly negate any > > magick a Mage tries to produce. The whole atmosphere would be lost in one > > fell swoop. Even in an adventure with no Schmages in it, playing a Mage > > just wouldn't feel right purely through knowing that the Schmages are out > > there. That's how I feel about dropping Mage's into In Nomine. > > This is what I call the Point-Defense NPC: a creature whose sole purpose > is to screw with the party for no good reason except as a plot device. Well, its a bit contrived as written, but any group that is similar enough to mages but more powerful will ruin the atmosphere, IMHO. High powered mages are not *much* like angles, but they are similar *enough*. There isn't the difference between say, mages and paradox spirits. > Now, if you made said Schmage incapable of preforming sphere magick, and > was able only to counter it -- in effect, a magickal anti-aircraft gun -- > then that would be a little more fair because balance is maintained. Here you use the word "balance", but its a lack of the proper balance that is exactly what I fear. The Order of Hermes could take on the servants of Marc and win, Technocracy allowing. This feels as destructive of atmosphere to me as having a group much like mages (call 'em shmages) that could take on the Order of Hermes and win. Suddenly the Order just doesn't feel the same. Now, its true that vampires are at least as similar to mages as mages are to celestials, but it doesn't spoil the feel of Vampire so much if there are individuals out there of much greater power. In In Nomine, you lose the whole mythos. Its not quite as bad as introducing NPCs who are stronger than God, but its competative. > > But I don't see where you're going with the notion that mages are > UberPCs. They don't *have* to be UberPCs, but mages *can* be so Uber that they dwarf celestials. Even NPCs with this sort of power bug me if they aren't celestial. I lose the feel of the game. > I think they're balanced, if used properly. Personally, I don't want balance. In my world, there is no doubt that celestials are stronger. > A party of angels against a > high-power Nephandus? Sounds like an epic struggle to cap off a climactic > chronicle showcasing just how much Hell has corrupted humans, The *less* power the humans get from the deal, the stronger this impression is IMHO. If a demon can win your soul for a pitance, so much more insult to God. > what Hell > gets out of it, and why Heaven should be vigilant to guard against this > sort of thing. I don't go for this myself. The interest of Heaven and Hell in humans shouldn't get too focussed on their value as soldiers. Their value as souls that are loved/hated matters more. All this is, of course, MHO. I'm just trying to express why this doesn't float my boat. I don't want to give the impression that I think there is something *wrong* with what you are doing - its a game after all. Whatever works for you is just what you should do. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #257 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.