From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Sep 14 18:04:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01416 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:04:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA06542 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:49:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:49:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199709142249.RAA06542@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #341 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, September 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 341 In this digest: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] IN> A Few Questions IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls IN> Superior Intervention IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine IN> Bright Malakim Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) Re: IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #340 Re:IN> INRI Tattoo Re: IN> INRI Tattoo IN> Bright Malakim Re: IN> Fallen Malakim Re: IN> Superior Intervention Re: IN> Superior Intervention IN> Re: INRI IN> The Imp of the Perverse Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) IN>The four cherubim Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) Re: IN> Superior Intervention IN> Adventure Seed: The Greys ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:08:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > That I don't see so much; Lucifer was Seraphim, so he didn't HAVE > the Vows. (I still like Casca's thought - I'm pretty sure it was Casca's, > anyway - that Lucifer went because Light included free will...which is > essentially what you're saying here as well, but without making Lucifer a > Dark Malakim.) Yup, that was me. :) Rather proud of that post, and slightly puzzled as to why it hasn't made it onto AA Beth's website.....ah well. Don't try to eff the ineffable, and all that. ;) - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:16:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] It's an interesting concept. I enjoyed reading it, but quite honestly, they seem _very_ overpowered. I may end up doing a modified version of them, but thanks for the interesting ideas nonetheless. Oops da Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:35:28 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A Few Questions >>>First off, is it allowable to make a character who serves a word-bound celestial who is not an AA or DP?<<< Yes. >>>You'd be missing out on attunements (I assume only AAs and DPs can grant attunements) but you'd have a much wider range of words to serve.<<< All Word-bound angels serve an Archangel. So your Angel of Friendship must be a Servitor in turn-- Novalis would be my choice. All Servitors of Mihr would then also be Servitors of Novalis. You could think of them as Angels of Flowers in service to Friendship, though they'd actually refer to themselves as Angels of Friendship. Non-Superiors cannot usually grant attunements of their own, but Angels of Friendship would still be able to take Flowers' attunements. And the Angel of Friendship probably *does* have a Rite or two of his own, which he can grant to his Servitors (they can also use Novalis' Rites). In my campaign, I usually say almost every Word-bound angel has at least one Rite s/he can grant. Powerful Word-bound angels may have a Servitor attunement or two also....but only the most powerful non-Superiors can grant their own Choir or Band attunements, in addition to those of their Archangel/Prince. For an example of how all this works (including dissonance restrictions and such), see Izrann, the Duke of Cities, a powerful Word-bound Servitor of Malphas: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Izrann.htm >>>On a related topic, are we going to see Raphael? I'm thinking he'd be the Archangel of Healing.<<< R.I.P. See the latest issue of Pyramid. >>>Finally, I was wondering about the Pseudo-Dionysian choir scheme as it relates to IN...we have seraphim, cherubim, thrones, powers, virtues, and dominations. We have archangels, although not as a choir. I'm assuming the Mercurians are the plain ol' angels. So where are the principalities?<<< One might hypothesize they are one of the "powers even greater than the Archangels", residing in the upper Heavens, which are vaguely referred to in In Nomine. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:02:41 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls >> I'm guessing the character probably only took 2 Celestial > Forces, right?< 5 Corporeal 2 Etherial 2 Celestial. Role Nun, Attunement Ax. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:35:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Superior Intervention >>>So he's the Imp of the Perverse[1], then?<<< I am sure I've graduated beyond mere Imphood! - -David (I'm a *Prince*, dammit!) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:02:38 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Homosexuality in In Nomine Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com From: David Edelstein >Well, the point with the diabolical perspective on homosexuality is that THEY don't think it's "evil", and they don't care-- it's what HUMANS think that motivates them. If humans think homosexuality is evil, and demons can thus use it to their advantage, then it benefits them to keep homosexuality regarded as "sinful". < Unless of course it really is a sin, in which case Andrealphusand Nybass are probably behind the softening attitude to it in modern western societies.... Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:35:23 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Bright Malakim Serious "Hmmmmmm......" - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:27:46 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) >> I'm afraid I disagree with the idea of Malakim being already "fallen". >> I've recently been skimming the Old Testament, and I've been finding some >> evidence for the existance of the Malakim. Here's a few of my favorites >> from Psalms: >> >> >> "O Lord, you God of vengeance, you God of vengeance, shine forth!" >> - Psalm 94:1 >> >> >> "The Lord is at your right hand... He will execute judgement among the >> nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter heads over the wide >> earth." >> - Psalm 110:5-6 >> >> >> "The Lord watches over all who love him, but the wicked he shall destroy." >> - Psalm 145:20 >> > >Actually, the violent side of God makes the Fallen Malakim argument >just that much stronger. God embodies GOOD and EVIL - he did, after all, >create the World, and the World isn't all fluffy bunnies or genocide. And >from heaven, he executes both. I'm afraid I don't follow you. The Fallen is defined as angels who have lost "their purpose, their grace." (IN pg 57) It seems to me that the Malakim retain their purpose to a disturbing degree. As for their grace, I would say their grace is the wrath of heaven which they embody. Grace, n, The state of being protected or sactified by the favor or God. (The American Heritage Dictionary) - -Perry "The Lord is a warrior, the Lord is his name." - Exodus 15:3 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:29:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Really Bad Perception Rolls >> A Seraph, with a Perception of *4*???? Let's keep him off used-car >> lots, or he'll get laughed right out of the next Seraphim Council >> meeting . >> >> Seriously, though, I'd have to look hard at a character that was >> that obviously focused on "other stuff" for strong signs of >> munchkinism. > >If munchkinism were the name of the game, why would they take a >Seraph, and a crippled one, at that? They want a Combat Monster, and the Seraph of War has that lovely penalty against a target's Dodge. I've seen players who say, "Aw, screw the Truth, I just wanna kill something! Gotta have Strength for beatin' on demons, gotta have Precision for shootin' em... guess we just ignore that stupid resonance stuff, and role-play later around the hacked and mangled bodies." At least, that's one possible interpretation of their motive... Maybe they're taking that "Most Holy" thing a little too far, too... but this is just idle speculation, of course. I've also run across munchkins who think that taking one particular kind of character will let them boss the other players around. Never *lasts* very long, but... . >> I'm guessing the character probably only took 2 Celestial >> Forces, right? > >I have done that for one of my characters, as well. Yes, the lack of >resonance power sucks, but it makes for a more interesting character, >and one that is less capable of self-sufficiency. (In case you are >wondering, the character is a Kyrio, and I am slightly screwing >myself in the bargain. Fortunately she has a vessel from Mike). It's a perfectly *valid* choice to make, but if one of *my* players didn't want to really worry about a resonance, I'd recommend that he play a Soldier. Remember, he'll get dissonance for the exact same actions no matter *how* well or how poorly his resonance works. That Seraph may be incredibly gullible, but he *still* can't lie. Characters that *have* to have other celestials around have too much of a munchkin flavor for my taste, although specialization is something else entirely, of course. If your game works better with hit squads of celestials coming in to do one specific type of job, more power to you. Michael I'd happily trade ten concerned citizens for one intelligent one. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:16:06 +0200 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #340 >From: "cd skogsberg" > >So he's the Imp of the Perverse[1], then? > >cd >[1]: C.f. Ambrose Bierce. Something I only found out today -- the original meaning of the word 'pervert' was someone who had converted from Church of England to Catholicism (!) >From: "Nathaniel Eliot" >Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... > > >That is an interesting idea - how many of you Bible quasi- >authorities can find stuff that either supports or opposes the way >IN is set up? This works for the Torah and Koran, too, as well as >non-Biblical dogma (Papal creed, etc). There is very little in the Torah to back up the God-Satan conflict. There is some stuff about angels (ie. Gabriel telling Samson's father about his unborn son, and the angels who visited Abraham re: Sodom & Gemorrah) -- also there is a quote in Exodus which translates along the lines of 'And I shall bring you out of the land of Egypt, I and no angel (Malakh), I and no Seraph, I and no messenger (Shali'akh) ...' Ezekiel's vision also describes the 'wheels of fire' (and probably a lot of other stuff which I can't remember). The only mention of Satan I can remember is in the Book of Job, and since Hebrew has plenty of words for angels but very few for demons I think its pretty much a given that the whole infernal lowerarchy was a post-Judaic sort of invention. There is a certain amount of commentary about angels, but basically Judaism doesn't preach the heaven/ hell dichotomy in any consistent way. Some evangelical christian once asked me at college whether Jews believed in Hell and damnation adn I had to say that I wasn't sure but I didn't think so ;-) (Sheol is mentioned, and so is Gehinnom (Gehenna) but I think they were actual places, and not supposed to be metaphysical domains :) ). Any of the jewish folklore about demons is .. well.. folklore and mythology and as such its really not mainstream. There may be some mystical/ kabbalistic branches which go more deeply into it, but its not encouraged as far as I know. (Isaac Bashevis Singer is a really good source for that style of Yiddish folk-story about dybbuks et al). The impression I've mainly had of demons in Jewish folklore is that they were seen in many ways in the same way fae were in medieval christian folklore. I'll shut up now ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:35:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re:IN> INRI Tattoo On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Michael C. Nutt wrote: > >I don't know about the main book, but there is such a thing (if that's a > >demon, of course; you know you can't tell in this game :-) on the GMs > >Screen. > That's not a demon, that's a *motorcycle*. There's a picture of For the second time in as many days, I run back to my room to grab gaming books. Damn it, you're right (although you never know, that *could* be a vessel of some sort :-). This has me bugged, now, too, as I'm sure I've seen this, and I've not picked up a Pyramid with IN content until the most recent. Meanwhile, the one I thought I saw instead has "I'm Going To Hell" tattooed on her arm. Methinks either I need to wake up, or someone needs to tell Dan Smith not to draw Balseraphs quite so *well* in the future... :-) alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "He was the patron saint of quality footwear." -- David St. Hubbins, "This Is Spinal Tap" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:41:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> INRI Tattoo On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 speaks@mindspring.com wrote: > Iesu Nazeri, Rex Iudicae > (Jesus of Nazereth, King of the Jews) > I may have slaughtered the roman spelling of Nazereth, but I am pretty sure > the rest is spelled right and in the right case. > "Romanes Aevnt Domvs" springs to mind for some reason... :-) alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Oh, we've got a bigger dressing room than the puppets? How refreshing!" -- David St. Hubbins, "This Is Spinal Tap" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:44:36 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (Brent DeHut) Subject: IN> Bright Malakim Whew, I haven't posted to the IN list in a long time... but Kingsley Lintz's Bright Malakim post seriously caught my attention. Kingsley- *brilliant*. I adore it. Within three seconds of finishing reading that post, I was already mentally debating which of my players to suggest a Bonakim to. Since they're so rare, the others might not know what s/he is at first....... This list has seen many a great idea, but I think this is my fave so far. Oh, and one last thing- "this applies to the 23-Force Angel of Munchkins just as much as any" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You're thinking of Ultimus Maximus, Archangel Of Munchkins. ;) - -Brent, formerly known as Rogue, who wishes it wasn't 11:30 PM so he could call up one of his players and rant and rave about Bonakim.... P.S. Although it occurs to me- the party's resident Malakim of War is *not* gonna like this........ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 08:19:38 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim Previously, from the desktop of Perry M. Lloyd... >I'm afraid I disagree with the idea of Malakim being already "fallen". >I've recently been skimming the Old Testament, and I've been finding some >evidence for the existance of the Malakim Agreed (with the disagreement). And I think I can explain 1) why Malakim really are angels, and 2) why they don't actually "fall" in the conventional sense. Remember that the resonance of the Malakim is not violence, but honor. They know how closely a subject has adhered to his or her principles. As falsehood is met with truth from the Seraphim, so the Malakim respond to dishonor with honor. The violent aspect of the Malakim is really just icing on the cake; the notion of dishonor is far more abhorrent to them than lies are to the Seraphim if you judge by their reaction to it. Now, as to the matter of their not falling... They may acquire dissonance, especially if they don't choose their vows carefully. They may even acquire enough to make a regular angel fall. But think about what happens in their cases. Seraphim (truth) become Balseraphim (falsehood). Cherubim (protection) become Djinn (stalkers). Elohim (objectivity) become Habbalah (subjectivity). Malakim (honor) would become something different, whose resonance would be *dishonor*. And what's the first thing that a being with a resonance of dishonor would do? Right -- CHANGE SIDES! Malakim don't Fall, They BOUNCE! - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ No, not THAT David. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:06:03 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention David Edelstein wrote: > >>>So he's the Imp of the Perverse[1], then?<<< > > I am sure I've graduated beyond mere Imphood! Hey, like, be cool. It's an ancient and venerable title, having nothing to do wiht Imphood (hmmm, Imphood, angel of hunger?), but more with a state of mind, y'know? (If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.) > -David (I'm a *Prince*, dammit!) David (I'm not!) - -- cd skogsberg cd@afakonsult.se Outbound on the endless trail... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:06:03 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention Donald G Bixler wrote: > > So he's the Imp of the Perverse[1], then? > > > > cd > > [1]: C.f. Ambrose Bierce. > > Don't you mean Edgar Allen Poe? ;'} Actually, as far as I could find, no. Perversity here implies more a perverse turn of mind more than anything else. cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: INRI Ieasus Nazerenaum Rex Iudorum Jesus of Nazereth King of the Jews (or King of Judea) This was the official placard, telling onlookers what Jesus had been convicted of. The irony was that the Jewish leaders wanted it to read "Who called himself King of the Jews." Equally ironic, is that Nazereth is in Gallilee, a seperate Roman Province, which was never under the same Roman leadership as Judea. Mark (Where do I get this? Don't ask...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:48:32 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> The Imp of the Perverse The Imp of the Perverse, or Maxwell's Demon, is essentially the embodiment and personification of Entropy. The place where he gets the most "air time" is in Christopher Stasheff's _Her_Majesty's_Wizard_ and its sequels. He is described as having power over Quantum Mechanics, and as being the modern world's equivalent to Puck. He is described as "*not* of "Hell-Crew"" because his Word, Murphy, describes man's perception of the unfairness of the Universe. I'm not sure how he translates into In Nomine, but I'd suggest: Max, Demon Prince or Archangel of Murphy's Law known as the Imp of the Perverse (for his own perverse reasons ;) ) But I don't think this describes "Prince Edelstein" terribly well. Mark (Who dosen't want to know where Bierce comes into it...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:43:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) Perry Lloyd noted, with a response from Emily Dresner buried in there; > >> I'm afraid I disagree with the idea of Malakim being already "fallen". > >Actually, the violent side of God makes the Fallen Malakim argument > >just that much stronger. God embodies GOOD and EVIL - he did, after all, > I'm afraid I don't follow you. The Fallen is defined as angels who have > lost "their purpose, their grace." (IN pg 57) It seems to me that the The way I'm looking at it, `Fallen', in this case, is a question of..mechanics. Not the meta game mechanics; the internal Resonance mechanics that God was working with when he first created the Celestials. Basically, it's on the note that every Celestial has been designed with a Bright resonance and a Dark resonance, intentionally. [Regardless of your view on just how powerful God is and how much He had planned from the start, I think it can be taken as given that He designed and created the Angels, and that He knew at least what COULD happen...and built them with that in mind. ie. they may not have been specifically designed TO Fall, but they were designed such that certain things would happen if they DID.] Where "Fallen", with the imagery of Lucifer dropping from the clouds and smacking down into Hell, usually refers to that loss of standing in Heaven and changing sides completely...it's also taken for granted to encompass the Dark resonance, since in every known case, it does. Malakim would be much BETTER described as "Dark" than "Fallen", in kind of the way Karakash is working to correct "Angelic vs Demonic Resonance" to "Perception Based vs Will Based" so it's not confusing in the couple cases it doesn't hold. So calling them Fallen is a bad choice of word; they were just built Dark-side-up. [Presumably because God was looking at it as he built them all and said, "Whoa...I'm going to need someone on this side who can really kick butt." But I tend to work with the idea that He was setting up a chess game with Himself..] (Though on the note of it; by "lost their purpose", I believe they mean strictly their intended Angelic purpose. It's hard to say Shedim don't have a purpose...) {Mind, I got a definite chuckle from David's, "They bounce"...I suppose any Malakim who WAS going to Fall would be well overdrawn on his Evil account anyway...er...} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:05:00 GMT From: marcus.evenstar@greymatter.com (Marcus Evenstar) Subject: IN>The four cherubim In her response of 12SEP97 to Earl Wajenberg, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: EW> [...] Around the throne stand an honor guard of four "living EW> creatures," the originals of the cherubim of IN -- a human, a bull, EW> an eagle, and a lion, each with six wings, each "full of eyes," EW >however exactly we are to picture that. EM> I am suddenly struck by the image of 6-winged angels with Great Big EM> Huge Anime Eyes. EM> I think I shall slink away and whimper now. And when I read Beth's response, I saw the four cherubim with not only GBHAE but also in the Small Body manga-style as befits the current misconception of that choir. ("Ahh, kawaii!") Then I consoled myself with the image of the Scarlet Woman of Babylon done in the Hentai style... ObIn-Nomine: The Hentai design concept (leggy child-women with slinky battle armor, lecherous cthuloid aliens, demon torturers, etc.) is a great example of the co-operation betwixt Andrealphus and Nybbas. ===================================================================== | GAT3.1 d- s+:++ a+ C++ U? LU? E? W- N++ o? K++ w+ O? M V? PS+++ | |PE- Y+ PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+++ tv b+++ DI++ D G++ e+ h--- r+++ y++(**)| ===================================================================== | marcus.evenstar | "I thought usenet was free of this sort of | | @greymatter.com | tyranny, of despots, of raging ego maniacs." | | | - mariposa@tezcat.com | ===================================================================== * RM 1.3 02440 * Evolution is God's way of issuing updates. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:40:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] > It's an interesting concept. I enjoyed reading it, but quite honestly, > they seem _very_ overpowered. I may end up doing a modified version of > them, but thanks for the interesting ideas nonetheless. Hmm...(well, okay, "Hmph." But I'm trying to avoid that. ) Unfortunately, keeping things from overbalancing is one aspect of futzing with game mechanics that I've always considered myself kind of good at, though admittedly, I sometimes leave myself a broader window for it than most might. Still, I'd like to note a few things; The first, right before I start suggesting otherwise, is of course the admission that you're right. I wouldn't quite say `overpowered', but they are intended to be a little more...special, particularly in the Superior Attunements. (Every time the idea of a Fallen Malakim comes up, people say, "Whoa..wouldn't THAT be Nasty?" So in designing Bright Malakim, I couldn't avoid thinking, "Whoa...wouldn't THAT be Nice?") They unfortunately are intended to be balanced somewhat on the large scale just by their rarity, though that does come with some internal checks - they should get increased attention, and no one will know quite what they are...and, of course, only a couple of Superiors don't consider what they do to be extremely dangerous. (Very useful, applied carefully, but if they see it being applied liberally...that's Bad.) Otherwise..let's see. Their Resonance, from a practical sense, operates in two aspects; alleviating Discord, and blocking Dissonance. (Discord is only blocked in the indirect sense, and while there are a few cases that alleviating past Dissonance for a few hours could be helpful, it's definitely a secondary aspect.) Alleviating the Discord can't last long, though long enough for just about any `scene' (5-8 hours, the upper half only available to those of War for specific problems), and is balanced with the added difficulties to their Resonance roll and the high check digits required. Blocking Dissonance ends up being stronger, though I suppose it's not so much that THEY'RE powerful as that they can let everyone ELSE cheat...the major note on this one, honestly, is just that with the check digits required, even one with a Will of 12 won't be able to just Forgive everyone everything every few hours. (I'd say it can be taken as given that you can't roll again until the current effects have worn off, so if you succeed with a 2, you've cleared up a little guilt, but can't try to let that Seraphim lie again for a couple hours...which in most game-related cases, is likely to mean you fluffed it.) Superior-based conditions are easier, but personally I think they ought to be; this'll let that Malakim of David go ahead and pound that taunting demon. {And won't they be surprised. "Haha, I'm a demon, but I'm not attacking...whatcha gonna do about it?" Then smirks as the Malakim's friend lays a hand on his shoulder and says, "He's a twit; go for it." Then falls down as the Malakim thwops him one.} In any case, I'd take it with the common sense point also that the Superiors of the Angels you're freeing up are likely to get upset if it happens too often...{Rolling a 111 on a Resonance roll very often ISN'T a good thing for a Bonakim, as sometimes a Superior looks over and says, "That's odd...I KNOW my Elohim has been acting on his vendetta this week. I'd better give him the Dissonance he should have and look into this.." I've been TRYING to work out a way to limit this part to more specific actions, or at least events, rather than a blanket alleviation for the duration, but so far haven't liked anything I've come up with on it...I'm relatively content with the note that about a third of the time, they're not going to get ANY of the Celestial mechanics. (Granting, in an emergency, you can always spend Essence, but Essence expenditure has pretty good limits built into the game...mainly on the note that you better not run into more than a couple emergencies in a week, which, in the course of a scenario, is unlikely..) Which leaves Blandine, Gabriel, Marc, and Novalis's Attunements... Blandine's, if it somehow actually comes up in an adventure, could be annoying - if they just need to protect a given person from Beleth, a Bonakim of Blandine pretty much does it, period, with only that teeny percentage chance of Beleth getting personally involved that can stop it. If they're actually marching off to Beleth's realm, on the other hand..you can't have one, because they can't GO there. Fire's ability to purify is powerful, but also loud, costly, and dangerous. Between subtracting the Level of the Discord and the fact that it burns all your Essence just to do it, you CAN'T get a `perfect roll' on this one, either. Trade's chance at breaking Geases could seriously annoy a Lilim, particularly given my personal belief that an uninvoked one, if you happen to know about it, wouldn't subtract as a Discord, though an active one would. But ANYONE can break a Geas with a Will roll when it's invoked, so this really just comes to one more crack at it.. Novalis's are a good bit stronger in the vein that I've noticed a lot of the Superiors seem to boost Choirs that compliment their Word more than the rest, and whether Novalis is taken as one or not, they definitely fall right in with what she does...the strongest for them, I think, is the option of removing a point of Dissonance after the fact, but it's got that `self defense' modifier, and will still require a Check of 5 if it was a Choir violation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:37:55 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Bright Malakim [Longish] >111 on a Resonance roll very often ISN'T a good thing for a Bonakim, as >sometimes a Superior looks over and says, "That's odd...I KNOW my Elohim >has been acting on his vendetta this week. I'd better give him the >Dissonance he should have and look into this.." Following this logic, perhaps the Benekim would better described as fallen Malakim. Malakim who have given up their angelic purpose, casting aside any concept of honor, instead focusing on their selfish decision to forgive the dishonorable instead. Hmmmm... I could see these guys working for the diabolicals. I envision demons seeking out the crazed Benekim, each demon trying to win the Benekites favor in order to be forgiven first.... Hmmmm... - -Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:49:42 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Malakim (was IN> Dissonance, Discord, and Falling) > So calling them Fallen is a bad choice of word; they were just >built Dark-side-up. [Presumably because God was looking at it as he built >them all and said, "Whoa...I'm going to need someone on this side who can >really kick butt." But I tend to work with the idea that He was setting >up a chess game with Himself..] Ahhh... So you view them as ass-whipping angels... I don't see their resonance being for ass-whipping, I see it as honor. Perhaps what we need to do here is not use the word Fallen ANY MORE. As for using the word Dark, the Malakim are Dark as presented in IN, I see no need to "decide" that they are Dark. Perhaps what we need is not to create a Choir of Angels which would be "Bright" Malakim. I find the concept a bit silly. SO far as I can tell, the resonance of the Benekim as presented here on this list is Mercy. Mercy is in no way the "reverse" of Honor, is it? You tell me. So, I say drop this whole "Bright" Malakim thing and lets just make a new choir! - -Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:59:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Superior Intervention > > Don't you mean Edgar Allen Poe? ;'} > > Actually, as far as I could find, no. > > Perversity here implies more a perverse turn of mind more than > anything else. Do you mean perverse as in an odd or strange mind, or merely one prone to contrariness? If you mean the latter, then I must say that that is precisely what I am talking about. If you can find it, Poe's story, "The Imp of the Perverse", does with a person's tendency to do such. "Examine these and similar action as we will, we shall find them resulting solely from the spirit of the _Perverse_. We perpetrate them merely because we feel that we should _not_. Beyond or behind this there is no intelligible principle; and we might, indeedn deem this perverseness a direct instigation of the arch-fiend, were it not occasionally known to operate in furtherance of good." > cd Oops da Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:25:58 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed: The Greys THE GREYS (UFOs FROM THE HOLLOW EARTH) - -------------------------------------- This adventure can be played seriously, for laughs, or both ways... Recently, there has been an upswing of UFO sightings and reported abductions in the area, including cattle mutilations. If the PCs are angels, a favored servant is adbucted, tortured, and left, Essence-free, in the middle of a field a nervous wreck, able to do little besides recount the experience. If the PCs are demons, or don't have any servants, one of them might get kidnapped -- but the kidnappers hastily drop them off as soon as they realize the PC isn't blowing all his Essence in fear. In fact, if the PC is a demon, they might apologize before beaming him down from the mothership -- tho they won't explain, muttering something about "the Dero". What's going on? Well, the PCs are seeing part of an alliance that has been going on since the before the second World War (or possibly earlier). It seems few Faeries, members of the Unseelie Court, bumped into a Dream-Walking servitor of Vapula while terrorizing a young child's dreams, as part of their traditional tithe to Hell. The servitor of Vapula was trying out few new high-tech torture devices, seeing if they caused the right amount of terror, which is why Beleth was allowing him to hang around. Being a nice guy (and interested in further field tests), he lent some of them to the sprightly, big-eyed little buggers for extended use. Suffice it to say that the Ethereal spirits did quite well. Dreamers started talking about the strange grey, big-eyed aliens that were abducting them and experimenting on them. As the power of these nightmares grew, the small cadre of Fae were transformed by the overactive (but mundane -- no one believes in faeries anymore) imagination of those dreamers into the Greys -- tiny extraterrestrial humanoids with big, black eyes, oversized heads and inscrutable motives. The Essence and imagination of the terrified dreamers created more Greys, which became a seperate (and modern) "pantheon" of Ethereal spirits. Beleth was pleased with the Greys, and, as part of her policy of taking the War in the Marches into the Corporeal plane, contacted Vapula about getting the Greys more equipment: better torture devices and a way to tool around on the Corporeal Plane. (Flying Saucers make use of the varous Songs of Motion...) As long as alien abductions remain disturbing and strange, yet wierd enough to be dismissed as unreal by the authorities, Beleth allows the Vapula-equipped Greys to manifest on Earth, causing even more terror and sucking humans dry of their Essence with a wide variety of demonic devices, inspiring weeks or even years of nightmares. But what of the tales of "space brothers" and other kindly alien visitations? Well, while most of the Greys (and similar "extraterrestrial" spirits) stick to the Unseelie Court method of Essence-through-terror, a small minority have decided to use Vapula's equipment to spread messages of peace and love, with instructions on how to contact the aliens, thereby creating Rites for the "worship" of aliens, in a modernized varient of the more peaceful methods by which Ethereal spirits gain Essence from humans. These renegade aliens have to be very careful, because if Vapula or Beleth found out what they were doing, they could easily be destroyed -- they often have to go on a "terror mission" as a cover, and then spread their message of peace and light a couple of states away. Some of the "space brothers" (inspired, perhaps, by Michael Gibson) have discussed going the voodoo loa route, and attempting to contact Jean about an alliance. Others think that they should go back to their roots, and contact the Seelie Court for advice. How do the PCs fit into all this? Well, once they find out about it (which has the potential for some interesting X-Files style adventures -- maybe the US Government *is* working with the aliens, and certainly Beleth and Vapula want to keep things under their hats for the moment), there are many ways they can go. Servitors of Jean may be interested in talking to the "space brothers", or they may be interested in shutting the Grey's operation down all together, since they're using technology light-years ahead of God's plan. Servitors of Vapula or Beleth may want to help, once they know what's going on. Other Superiors might have mixed feelings about the whole thing, especially considering the "space brothers" faction -- and to make things even more interesting, Kobal might take an interest in the general goofy nature of UFO phenomena. Not to mention the Greys aren't likely to give away the whole thing at the drop of a hat -- they refer to Hell as the "Hollow Earth" and demons as "the Dero", a form of doublespeak that might confuse the PCs for a while, once they use a Song to decipher their surreal, alien dream-language. ("Our allies in the Hollow Earth have provided us with this anal probe. Use it well, and take copious notes...") The Greys operate by a strange dream-logic, and are notoriously difficult to track, even by demons working for Vapula. It could take the course of an entire campaign before the PCs figure out the "aliens" are really spirits... -Loki (the Truth is Out There) - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #341 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.