From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Sep 22 18:44:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29022 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:44:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA10429 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:03:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:03:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199709222303.SAA10429@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #352 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, September 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 352 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Canon--working off two Geases/1 by bringing things up on the list Re: IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN>The four cherubim IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN>My Take on Fallen Malakim Re: IN>Undead (was: Mundane soul-trading) IN> artwork Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> just a thought IN> Superiors and their coffee RE: IN> artwork Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN> artwork Re: IN>The four cherubim Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> artwork Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> artwork Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Superiors and their coffee Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:04:53 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Canon--working off two Geases/1 by bringing things up on the list On Sun, 21 Sep 97 22:50 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >> I think canonizing some >>word other than superior for an immediate supervisor would greatly improve >>the clarity of future In Nomine products. I've > >I like "supervisor", myself. Some of my (N)PCs use "Boss" for their >Superior (OK, so they're angels of Creation, and Eli's not too big on >titles....) Supervisor seems too...mundane, as if the Celestials were clerks or assembly workers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:37:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:38 AM -0400 9/18/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >Ray Snyder's stuff was particularly evocative, though sometimes hard to > >comprehend (there's a point where style _does_ overcome form!) > > Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" > > If anyone knows, please, tell me.... It looks like a flaming demon skull to me, but that is just MY interpretation. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:40:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:24 PM -0500 9/18/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: > >> Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" > > > >I'm pretty happy to see the work of more atists. (No offense to Dan.) > >Also check out the upper-leftmost silhouette on p109. That ain't a > >spear... > > Guitar. Obviously. > > >> If anyone knows, please, tell me.... > > > > My guess would be a Gigeresque monster burning. *shrug* > > That's all I could come up with. > > >Oops da Ogre, Gabe's pic on 18 seemed too feminine to me, but the face is > > suitably creepy. > > (Karakash and I were arguing over which of us would be likely > to acquire the original, should such a thing be available... > We also liked the idea of T-shirts or prints.) If it is a web auction I'll give you both a run for your money. ;-) T-shirts sound cool to me. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:48:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN>The four cherubim On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote: > > >And when I read Beth's response, I saw the four cherubim with not only > > >GBHAE but also in the Small Body manga-style as befits the current > > >misconception of that choir. ("Ahh, kawaii!") > > > > > Oh, no! Not super-deformed Cherubs! > > > > Now think of super-deformed Dominic, with six great big eyes peeping > adorably out of his cute li'l hood. I am getting an image of Le Petite Morte from XXXenophile with six eyes. Beth make it go away...PLEASE. > > [panel 1: SD Dominic and SD Laurence on a cloud, chatting] > > [panel 2: An SD angel with several big jagged angry notes of Discord > hovering over him goes by] > > [panel 3: Before SD Laurence's amazed eyes, SD Dom whips out a mallet > that's twice as big as he is and flattens the Discordant angel, > knocking a hole in the cloud under him with predictable results] > > [panel 4: SD Dom holds up the mallet (we can now see that it has > 'REJECTED' carved backward in its face) and grins a goofy Seraph > grin.] This just makes it worse. Shadowcat ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There are 3 sizes of men: small, Medium, and OH MY GOD. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:37:37 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> A thought - opinions wanted this will be my first post to this list... a lot of enjoyable posting i've been seeing here, and i hope that this can repay some of the enjoyment i have gotten: the discussion recently of Malakim-as-demons-in-Heaven complements very well the "secret history" of my own (formative) campaign... i would, however like some commentary on the idea... my idea is that, long in the past, the Ethereal Gods reigned supreme, and even that entity now known as God was once counted among their number... for whatever reasons He may have had, God decided that the universe needed to be run in a different fashion, with Himself alone suited to command it (not surprising, actually, considering that only He had the foresight to devise this plan)... to do this, He had to rewrite the Symphony, but the other Ethereal Gods would not look on this kindly, being unwilling to give up their own positions and powers... to this end, God needed an army to enforce His great plan... he looked around to find followers at first, but was not able to find many from among the Ethereals (perhaps only one, who may have once been named Asherah, and may have later become known as Lilith?)... so He turned elsewhere, and His attentions settled on a group of outcast, run-down entities who lived in the neighboring Celestial realm... they were known as Demons... their wild and unpredictable ways, however, were not well-suited to His plans, and so He developed a philosophical/metaphysical discipline, one which promised the Demons a spiritual evolution of a type and majesty that they could never before have hoped for... some of them, many of them (perhaps even most of them), began following God's discipline, and so transformed, becoming Angels (except the Malakim, for God understood that the destructive nature of Demons was still needed, though it may have pained Him to come to that decision)... with this new army of Celestials, God's Crusade forced the Ethereal Gods into the Far Marches, where they reign to this day... God sited His capital city, Heaven, in the Celestial realm, to honor his Angelic host... He also rewrote the Symphony, so that a new history, in which He created all (and this is, in fact, true, in the sense that the rewritten Symphony is His creation)... afterwards, though, God's most trusted, most loved Celestial wondered why the Throne of Heaven should belong to God... it was, after all, in the realm of the Celestials, and God was not from there - He was an outsider... Lucifer's rebellion spread through the other Celestials fairly quickly, and he led a third of the Angelic host in an attempted coup against the Throne... most of the remaining Angels fought against the rebels (though there were quite a few who decided to remain uninvolved), more, in fact, than Lucifer had expected... his revolt was crushed, and he and the Angels who followed him were cast out of Heaven, and found their way to the ancient capital of the Demons, Hell... in addition, they gave up the discipline that was of their enemy, God, and reverted to the forms that they held long ago, before the rise of God... there you go... my only question, though, is why are there no Malakim among the Demons? perhaps even Demons, deep in their hearts, prefer Heaven (maybe it was, in fact, the original city of the Demons, and Hell is a slum?), and the Malakim, being the only Demons allowed to stay, do so? Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Get thee down. Be thou funky. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:02:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! David Wood writes: > I'm not saying many of the other deities of myth were also played by > Archangels. Jean, for instance, has the complete opposite personality > of Zeus. Yes, but how does he compare to Hephestus/Vulcan, the god of smithing and artifice, who MADE the thunderbolts FOR Zeus?... On the general issue of resemblance between Superiors and gods, I'll bring up another possibility that I mentioned once before: Perhaps the ethereal gods are "shadows" (in the Amber sense) of the cognate Superior. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:26:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Kingsley Lintz wrote: > But then, he's also strongly associated to medicine (the caduceus > symbol), and that's, what, Novalis? I don't think there is a Superior for medicine or healing, yet, though in actual tradition, that would be Raphael. As to the caduceus, that is SUPPOSED to be the symbol of Asclepius, god of healing, and so natural patron of doctors. There has, however, been a confusion. Asclepius's emblem is an un-winged rod with one snake twined around it. Somehow, this got swapped for Hermes's winged rod with two snakes. National Public Radio had a little filler spot about this a few months ago. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:49:47 -0400 From: Dominic Braun Subject: Re: IN>My Take on Fallen Malakim I love the band idea, but I think that the resonance is a little out of tune for a fallen Malakim. Mind you, I still like the idea of a band that can't fall, but if they were to fall I think the resonance would still be somehow tied to honor. I think that a fallen Malakim would be the _most_ persuasive member of Hell's armies. (Danger, spur of the moment write-up follows) A fallen Malakim ( Mikalam for brevity's sake ) can invoke its resonance to cause any being to act contrary to its nature. This can take different forms depending on the Mikalam and its current prince ( ex. M of Nybbas might be extremely persuasive, M of Andrealphus might be extremely persuasive in a _different_ way :), M of Baal and Belial might just intimidate the hell out of the poor slob ). Basically the Mikalam, knowing the flaws of honor and moral structure from the inside, automatically know exactly how to exploit those flaws and cause a lapse in the target's moral code. It would probably end up working very similar to a Habbalah's resonance. Quick Mechanics: The Mikalam makes a Will roll to invoke his resonance, with the Check digit showing the amount of effect that he has on the target. 1 - The target commits a minor violation: shoplifts a comic book, lies about something ( minor ) to a friend, etc. 2 - Slightly larger or longer lasting: shoplifts something more valuable ( a sourcebook maybe :) ), lies to a spouse/significant other, looks the other way in a situation where they might interfere ( a mugging where they could possibly get hurt ) 3 - Large Violation: Steal something from the target's workplace, Telling an important person "what (the target) really thinks about (the person)", etc 4 - Major: Large scale theft, hurting ( emotionally or mentally ) someone who is either an acquaintance or minor friend of the target, Small scale cheating on a significant other ( i.e. no sex ) 5 - Extreme: Grand theft auto, hurting a friend physically, fully cheating on a significant other ( Andrealphus really loves these guys ), etc. 6 - Life-Affecting: Murder ( of significant other or less ), or nearly anything else Obviously anything that could be accomplished with a smaller check digit could be accomplished with a larger check digit ( with a 6 you could definitely get someone to steal a comic ). Additionally, keep in mind that these are for a general moral code. Someone who routinely cheats on his wife might only need a 2 or 3 ( or maybe even a 1 for some scum ) to hop into bed with someone, whereas someone might need a 3 to give a bum some money for food. Finally, the Mikalam's resonance only works if the situation is in the process of occuring ( he walks up on someone with a stripper sitting on his lap ). In some situations the Mikalam may make a suggestion ( "Go ahead. Take it. No one's watching..." ). Additionally, the violation must be limited to one situation. Theft of one or two things is possible, a full scale burglary is not. Second degree murder is doable, taking a rifle up on a tower and taking potshots is not. When in doubt, ask yourself, would the target be able to think about what he/she is doing more than once? If the answer is yes, another resonance check would be required. Finally, the Mikalam must be near ( Celestial Forces in yards ) the target to invoke its resonance. Dissonance: Not really sure, but I would say that anytime the Mikalam causes someone become more honorable it gains dissonance. Additionally, I think because of the nature of the Mikalam, there are relatively few of them, and I think most would be watched over by Kronos ( they have an incredible ability to drive people to their fate ), so I think that anytime a Mikalam could not allow a person to approach their destiny without gaining dissonance. Finally, the Mikalam must keep ( or in the case of a beginning PC, create ) the oaths which the Mikalam had as a Malakim ( this for dealing with the above backlash which I forgot to mention ) Backlash: All Mikalam resonance checks may be resisted with a successful will roll by the victim. If the victim succeeds, and the check digit is higher than the Mikalam's resonance CD, then the resonance backfires. The Mikalam must bring back one ( GM or Player Choice ) of the oaths which the Mikalam had as a Malakite and obey it or gain dissonance. The Mikalam may avoid this by spending one essence ( this expenditure does disturb the symphony, in fact make it a 3 x ( essence spent ) disturbance due to the amount of effort required to change the Mikalam's original tie to the symphony ) Finally any Mikalam resonance may be countered by spending an amount of essence equal to the check digit of the roll ( alternatively you may spend one essence to reduce the CD, but this could cause some twinkishness among players ). This is because essence is produced by following your nature and the expenditure represents your resolve to obey your nature. ******************** OK, sorry it got kind of long winded there, but it was a spur of the moment thing ( besides, I haven't had breakfast :) ). I do like the Chandim though, I think I'm just going to use them as a separate minor band ( and create the corresponding angelic counterparts ). Let me know what you guys think about the Mikalam ( I've got to find a new name for these guys ). Dominic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:04:48 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN>Undead (was: Mundane soul-trading) John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Are there other ways of becoming undead than being promoted to it by > > > Demons of Death? I like the thought of egyptians creating real > mummies > > before Saminga learned about it. Could Ethereal beings (ie Egyptian > Gods) > > create promote mummies? And can Vampires create other vampires (as > > according to Ann Rice, and World of Darkness)? > > the in nomina main book states ( under the discription for undead I > believe ) that the followers of death are the most accomplished at the practice of creating undeadI personally take that to mean that others could accomplish the same affect but probably with an even greater chance of creating a vampyre or zombie. > -- > ___________________________________________________ > / \ > |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | > | (919)380-4629 | > | | > | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | > | -Chief Justice Marshall | > \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:23:37 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: IN> artwork I was just wondering if anybody was interested in a piece of original artwork of the Arch Angel Michiel in .BMP format and if so should I post it here or sent it to spacific individuals CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:02:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > there you go... my only question, though, is why are there no Malakim > among the Demons? perhaps even Demons, deep in their hearts, prefer With the Malakim-as-Demons theory, I'd go with the point that since God chose them and kept them that way, he took that extra moment to bind them in those chains, which he didn't do to anyone else. Malakim stay in Heaven because, unlike virtually everything else in the cosmos, they DON'T have the Choice. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:26:05 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > there you go... my only question, though, is why are there no > Malakim > > among the Demons? perhaps even Demons, deep in their hearts, prefer > With the Malakim-as-Demons theory, I'd go with the point that > since God chose them and kept them that way, he took that extra moment > to > bind them in those chains, which he didn't do to anyone else. Malakim > > stay in Heaven because, unlike virtually everything else in the > cosmos, > they DON'T have the Choice. I read someware once that god gave 1/3 of his angels free will hey how many angels fell < wink,wink> CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:23:01 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: IN> just a thought Here's one for contemplation I was just looking at the In Nomina collection2 in the section on reasons for the fall( under In Nomina misc. ) and I noticed one of my personal favorites was missing ( more on that later ) I am currently running an In Nomina game involving mostly human characters ( my friends always did root for the underdogs) and the underling theme of the campaign, that the players are just starting to relies now is that the diabolical are right and are conducting a justified rebellion against a maniacal heavenly government ( with or without gods leave) this all started with an old story I had read in a book on angles ( I try to find the title if anyone is interested ) in witch lucifer, while still in his position as light bringer was commanded by God that he should bow down before none save the lord mighty much latter God granted man a soul and raised him " for the first time above all gods creatures" ( try to remember that this interpretation being old testament and originating in the Jewish religion believed that angels did not have a soul in the same way that humans do therefor making humans superior to angels ) God called all his angels together and command them to bow before man and most did but Lucifer refused remembering God's earlier command and at this insolence god cast him out of heaven and banished him to earth. now if this sounds odd take another look at the In Nomina misc. and think of this as the same God that destroyed an complete choir of angels for failing ti sing his proper praise I know this is hard to follow from a christian perspective but remember the Jewish God the God of the old testament was not infallible he was simply all powerful a very sever difference when you think about it so imagine a world where God is not perfect ( though several of his angels ESP dominic & laurence believe he is ) and Lucifer was cast out for following orders & is simply trying to reclaim his rightful place in heaven / maybe a bit bitter but not evil a patriotic revolution against the fascist regime another provocation for thought Lucifer is the LIGHT BRINGER usually thought of as an illuminator bringer of enlightenment source of KNOWLEDGE the bible curses adam and eve for eating the apple and therefor gaining the knowledge of good and evil what kind of a government finds knowledge a threat even evil from it's perspective say Germany circa 1940 Just a thought CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:40:46 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Superiors and their coffee (with assistance from the Archangel Beth - anyone who can work out which of us wrote which gets a round of applause) ArchDean : "I'm still waiting for Jean's people to come up with a variant for my cats." Archives : "Well, I'd rather have some hot chocolate..." Blandine : "Coffee. Caffeine. Insomnia. What do you think?" Christopher : "Now, now, wait till you're older." David : "The spirit of fellowship burns more brightly than any caffeine-induced flames in the hearts of those who work together. Black, no sugar." Dominic : "My Servitors are ever-watchful. Or I will know the reason why." Eli : "Hey, man, I know this ecellent place round the corner that grinds it on the spot for you." Gabriel : (coffee explodes in gout of steam. Gabriel walks through it, droplets hissing off her skin.) "Rise up and take the fire, nurture it how you may: but do not let it be lost." Janus : (shifts on his feet) "Hey, can't you hurry that stuff up!" (Servitor of the Wind : "Someone took the coffee! We're having to get more!") Jean : "Put it next to the cups over there. I'll get round to drinking them as soon as I finish this programming job." Jordi : "Was this obtained ecologically?" or "Coffee is a degenerate creation of humanity." Laurence : "I have no time for coffee while there is still evil at large." Litheroy : "Are the advertisements true?" Marc : "What would you say a fair price is?" Michael : "And to continue the training session, in three easy steps one can convert a cup of coffee into a simple yet effective explosive..." Novalis : "Oh, dear. Don't you think that there's a rather imbalanced amount of this stuff grown? I mean, it's good, but..." Yves : "Yes, there is a purpose to coffee. If you feel that it will advance your Destiny, then by all means drink it." Alaemon : "Who let the formula for mochaccino out!?!" Andrealphus : "I can show you better things to do with cream, my sweet..." Asmodeus : "Coffee is unnecessary for those dedicated to their work." Baal : "Drink enough, and they'll be immune to poisons..." Beleth : "Drink all the coffee you want. In the end, you must sleep, and you must dream..." Belial : "HOT COFFEE! YEAH!" or : (tosses coffee cup across the room to shatter) "IT'S NOT HOT ENOUGH!" Furfur : "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING COFFEE! TURN THE SOUND UP!" Haagenti : "And some cream cakes, and eclairs, and Haagen-Dasz icecream, and nuts, and truffles, and..." Kobal : "Want a cup? No, it's fine, really." Kronos : "Go ahead. Take some. Set it right there, next to your hand-written manuscript. Oh, you shouldn't have used felt-tip, should you?" Lilith : "How badly do you need it?" Malphas : "Let's take a vote on how everyone would like the coffee to be. It's the most efficient way, really..." Nybbas : "And on all our channels, now, advertisements for our new brands of coffee!" Saminga : "Do you take it with strychnine or arsenic?" Valefor : "Hey, who took the coffee!" Vapula : "Was that the universal solvent or the coffee?" And, for the last word: Lucifer : "You could ask me for anything, and you have requested a cup of coffee?" - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:18:29 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: RE: IN> artwork Original artword of Michael in .bmp format? Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me! Send a little my way. :) - -Perry "And the Lord was very sorry that he made humankind on the earth, and it grieved his heart." - Genesis 6:6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:16:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> just a thought The "old story" you mention, about Lucifer falling because he would not bow down to Adam, comes from the Koran: "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He said: Shall I make obeisance to him whom Thou hast created of dust?" -- 17.61:     Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:13:38 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The "old story" you mention, about Lucifer falling because he would > not bow down to Adam, comes from the Koran: > > "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made > obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He said: Shall I make obeisance > to him whom Thou hast created of dust?" -- 17.61: > > Earl Wajenberg thank you what do you think about the consept I put forth as a whole ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:51:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! At 10:38 PM -0400 9/19/97, dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org wrote: [...] >Janus and Valefor may very well be the same entity through some elaborate >trick. Could Hermes have been one of his alter-egos? Or did Hermes escape >the Greek myth and land himself seats both in Heaven and Hell? There's a notion... Another option is that the Ethereal gods are actually *copies* of the various Superiors (and lesser celestials), created by human intrepretation of the stories told of encounters with these beings. (Of course, this option nixes the "God is a souped-up ethereal" idea, but whether it's true or not in your game, the PCs will probably assume that's how it works. So Loki is the "brainchild" of... Janus? Lucifer? Both conglomerated together in human imagination? Thor and Ares/Mars all owe their existance to Michael, Aphrodite is related to Andre and/or Eli, Athena is probably akin to Jean...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:54:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review At 10:51 PM +0000 9/19/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >> Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" >> > >> >I'm pretty happy to see the work of more atists. (No offense to Dan.) >> >Also check out the upper-leftmost silhouette on p109. That ain't a >> >spear... >> >> Guitar. Obviously. > >Or a wierdly held MG... > >> >> If anyone knows, please, tell me.... >> > >> > My guess would be a Gigeresque monster burning. *shrug* >> >> That's all I could come up with. > >I'm thinking it looks a lot like Venom (ala Spiderman). But the >point is walid - I like some of the work in Marches (Perez and Smith, >mostly - p 82 is nice, too, if a bit cartoony). But some of it...p >63, aka "The Hand from Hell", and almost everything by whoever that >is with the arrowhead-like signature. It's a stylized "RS," so is probably Snyder. Some of it was good, but yes, personally, I could do with a lot less RS. (More Bruton, though! And Smif, of course. Perez, when he's "hot" is *hot*. (Gaby!) But I didn't like the Pachadim picture, I fear. *sigh*) >Personally I kinda dug the >unified feel that Smith brought to the game. True. Though his hands will fall off if he doesn't get a break. Ah, well. >> >Oops da Ogre, Gabe's pic on 18 seemed too feminine to me, but the >> > face is suitably creepy. >> >> (Karakash and I were arguing over which of us would be likely >> to acquire the original, should such a thing be available... >> We also liked the idea of T-shirts or prints.) > >Personally, I'm waiting for Micheal to hit the block... Hm. Yeah, I can see bidding on him. I probably wouldn't, but I can see the urge. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:08:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> artwork At 11:23 AM -0400 9/22/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: >I was just wondering if anybody was interested in a piece of original >artwork of the >Arch Angel Michiel in .BMP format and if so >should I post it here or sent it to spacific individuals You should not post it here! No binary files here! As for the rest... It's probably copyright violation, which should not be done on the list. *sigh* - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:07:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>The four cherubim At 7:48 AM -0500 9/22/97, Shadowcat wrote: >On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote: > >> > >And when I read Beth's response, I saw the four cherubim with not only >> > >GBHAE but also in the Small Body manga-style as befits the current >> > >misconception of that choir. ("Ahh, kawaii!") >> > > >> > Oh, no! Not super-deformed Cherubs! >> >> Now think of super-deformed Dominic, with six great big eyes peeping >> adorably out of his cute li'l hood. > > I am getting an image of Le Petite Morte from XXXenophile with six >eyes. Beth make it go away...PLEASE. I can't. It's a contagious meme. Help... [And if anybody will send me a GIF or JPEG, I will put in an art section for the INC, for the finest selections...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:04:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> just a thought Chuck Ryan wrote: > what do you think about the consept I put forth as a whole [i.e. that the devils are right and are making a justifiable rebellion against tyranny] I am afraid it is not to my personal taste. I am a Christian in real life, and the inversion ... just doesn't appeal. If you're going to do it, then you will have to clean up the IN Princes and Bands somewhat to make them acceptable "good guys." For instance, it'll be hard to have the Princes collecting human souls to torture in various ways for millenia or forever. Or to have Sheddim possessing people and committing attrocities with them, as in the book example. Likewise, you'll have to blacken the characters of the Archangels. For some, like Dominic, this will be trivial; clearly, even Derek didn't like Dominic much. But Novalis, for instance, would have to be re-written entirely or depicted rather like Eli, completely disconnected from reality. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:49:56 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> artwork Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:23 AM -0400 9/22/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: > >I was just wondering if anybody was interested in a piece of original > > >artwork of the > >Arch Angel Michiel in .BMP format and if so > >should I post it here or sent it to spacific individuals > > You should not post it here! No binary files here! > > As for the rest... It's probably copyright violation, which > should not be done on the list. *sigh* I created it hence the term " original art " no copyright violation here! and since the file is large and ( BINARY) I'll be glad to send it to individualls as long as they agree to give me there opinion of it & that its use will be creadited to me if you want to check it out drop me a line at cryan@us.bnsmc.com > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:11:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: Re: IN> just a thought On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The "old story" you mention, about Lucifer falling because he would > not bow down to Adam, comes from the Koran: > > "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made > obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He said: Shall I make obeisance > to him whom Thou hast created of dust?" -- 17.61:     > > Earl Wajenberg Great line! Sometimes it's credited to Azazel, too. ("Shall a child of fire bow then to a child of clay?") - --Dennis dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:37:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> artwork At 4:49 PM -0400 9/22/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 11:23 AM -0400 9/22/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: >> >I was just wondering if anybody was interested in a piece of original >> >> >artwork of the >> >Arch Angel Michiel in .BMP format and if so >> >should I post it here or sent it to spacific individuals >> >> You should not post it here! No binary files here! >> >> As for the rest... It's probably copyright violation, which >> should not be done on the list. *sigh* > > I created it hence the term " original art " no copyright violation >here! Ah! Okay! ("Original art" could mean a scan of the French IN version, too -- hence, the confusion.) If you had a GIF or JPEG version, I could put it on the INC pages. (In Nomine Collection.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:29:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > > > there you go... my only question, though, is why are there no > > Malakim > > > among the Demons? perhaps even Demons, deep in their hearts, prefer > > With the Malakim-as-Demons theory, I'd go with the point that > > since God chose them and kept them that way, he took that extra moment > > to > > bind them in those chains, which he didn't do to anyone else. Malakim > > > > stay in Heaven because, unlike virtually everything else in the > > cosmos, > > they DON'T have the Choice. > > I read someware once that god gave 1/3 of his angels free will > hey how many angels fell < wink,wink> > CHUCK I agree with Kingsley because I'm actually his mindless puppet. But, I read this weekend in the "A to Z of Angels" (which has fueled other stuff that will be coming to an In Nomine Mailing List Near You), a fluffy book to say the least, the theory was brought about by Thomas Aquinus, that God gave all of his angels free will. When this happened, 1/3rd of the Angelic Host rebelled, fell, became corrupted, and ended up in the Pit. Of course, the Lilim are another story altogether. They are not counted into that 1/3rd at all. Lilith was created from the same dust as Adam, but Adam didn't want an equal, he wanted a wifey slave. So she said, "to hell with you" and walked out, and cavorted with far more interesting demons out on the vacation banks of the red sea. When the Angels came to bring her back, she said, "Up yours." They said nasty things about her, but she still has a good time. Generic Demon goes into bin A. Lilim go into bin B. I'll take one of each. My question has always been, if Hell is so bad, how can the Lilim do such a good job with their makeup? And their CLOTHES? Mahvelous. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:16:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and their coffee > And, for the last word: > > Lucifer : "You could ask me for anything, and you have requested a cup of > coffee?" Heheh...oh, great. Lucifer the Paranoid Archangel. "Here I am, soul the size of a planet, and He asks me to close the pearly gates. Life. Don't talk to me about life." No WONDER he rebelled...that pain down all the feathers in his left side... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! > Another option is that the Ethereal gods are actually *copies* of > the various Superiors (and lesser celestials), created by human > intrepretation of the stories told of encounters with these > beings. (Of course, this option nixes the "God is a souped-up > ethereal" idea, but whether it's true or not in your game, the PCs > will probably assume that's how it works. So Loki is the "brainchild" > of... Janus? Lucifer? Both conglomerated together in human imagination? > Thor and Ares/Mars all owe their existance to Michael, Aphrodite is > related to Andre and/or Eli, Athena is probably akin to Jean...) If you don't want to nix the uber-Ethereal idea, it could go in reverse. Michael owes a lot of his design to Ares & Thor, Andre (before he fell) was modeled on Aphrodite, et all. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > > what do you think about the consept I put forth as a whole > > [i.e. that the devils are right and are making a justifiable > rebellion against tyranny] > > If you're going to do it, then you will have to clean up the > IN Princes and Bands somewhat to make them acceptable "good guys." > For instance, it'll be hard to have the Princes collecting human > souls to torture in various ways for millenia or forever. Or to > have Sheddim possessing people and committing attrocities with them, > as in the book example. Why? Just because God is tyrannous, doesn't make the Demons good, or even make God necessarily bad. Maybe he was doing it because he saw the mistreatment the Ethereals heaped on humanity, and wanted to stop it. He made the Demons stop their raping of human souls, but some of them didn't like the bargain too much, and when Lucifer renegged, went back with him. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > the discussion recently of Malakim-as-demons-in-Heaven complements very > well the "secret history" of my own (formative) campaign... i would, > however like some commentary on the idea... You know, you're scaring me with this. It's a little *too* close to my ideas. Perhaps some cross fertilization is in order... > my idea is that, long in the past, the Ethereal Gods reigned > supreme, and even that entity now known as God was once counted > among their number... for whatever reasons He may have had, God > decided that the universe needed to be run in a different fashion, > with Himself alone suited to command it (not surprising, actually, > considering that only He had the foresight to devise this plan)... Yep - pretty close to me. In my game, it isn't his foresight that makes his plan work - it's a new source of power he has discovered: Words. > to do this, He had to rewrite the Symphony, but the other Ethereal > Gods would not look on this kindly, being unwilling to give up > their own positions and powers... to this end, God needed an army > to enforce His great plan... I dunno about rewriting the Symphony - for me, the Symphony only really exists in the Corporeal, with some shadow in the Ethereal. It's not something you can rewrite. But for the most part, it's not important. Very few things that aren't Celestial remember before Yahweh. The angels have all been programmed to believe that God created the universe. It would have been perfect, but Yahweh didn't count on one thing - anything with Celestial Forces has a *real* will, and can't truely be brainwashed. > he looked around to find followers at first, but was not able to > find many from among the Ethereals (perhaps only one, who may have > once been named Asherah, and may have later become known as > Lilith?)... Okay - question here. How far are you taking the Snow Crash references in your game? I plan to have some fun with them (like the Celestial tounge resembling glossolalia) > so He turned elsewhere, and His attentions settled on a group of > outcast, run-down entities who lived in the neighboring Celestial > realm... they were known as Demons... Interesting! This I hadn't thought of. > God sited His capital city, Heaven, in the Celestial realm, to > honor his Angelic host... He also rewrote the Symphony, so that a > new history, in which He created all (and this is, in fact, true, > in the sense that the rewritten Symphony is His creation)... Again, interesting. My Heaven is just an extension of God's Celestial Form, and Hell is the Celestial corpse of Metatron. Technically, it's just part of the Ethereal (which fits fairly well with the cannon description). > there you go... my only question, though, is why are there no Malakim > among the Demons? perhaps even Demons, deep in their hearts, prefer > Heaven (maybe it was, in fact, the original city of the Demons, and Hell > is a slum?), and the Malakim, being the only Demons allowed to stay, do > so? No - God chained them with their vows. They *couldn't* leave. > Get thee down. Be thou funky. Digge it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #352 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.