From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Sep 27 11:32:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26501 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:32:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA20629 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:11:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:11:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199709271611.LAA20629@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #363 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, September 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 363 In this digest: RE: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> God bless you, celestial-citizen! Re: IN> What good are tethers? Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> Fisuba, The Demon of Abuse Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Angel of Housewives (Long) RE: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's IN> Thanks IN> Needing Light for Darkness IN> Re: Malakim, Lucifer IN> Angel of Housewives and Gratuitous Profanity Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing (longish) Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:15:06 -0400 From: Aes Sedai Subject: RE: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's On Thursday, September 25, 1997 7:27 PM, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >Plus, I prefer the big-screen TV... With quad speakers and Surround Sound. Do you like butter on your popcorn? Oh, forget the popcorn. I already ate it. And don't bother looking for the remote control. (Mmmm. Remote Control.) >And make sure that important things in history often happen *without* >supernatural interference. I almost agree. Important things often *begin* without supernatural interference, but once word gets out that something big is up, celestials will be drawn to it like flies to manure. (Are you getting hungry too?) We don't necessarily cause the biggest events in history, but we certainly attempt to influence the outcome if we can make it there in good time. There are too many things to eat - uh, too many advantages to be gained - to pass up attendance at the Big Events. Clyde Servitor of Haagenti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:28:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> God bless you, celestial-citizen! > > I still think Heaven should be Alpha Complex, though.:) > Yeah, Heaven sounds more like it... > "Er...Mr. Dominic, I quite can't grab the meaning of my mission..." I think Dominic (s'cuze me..Dom-I-NIC-2) is probably THE major problem with Heaven as Alpha Complex...I think the rest of this would have gone more like; > "You're not clearified for that, celestial-citizen. Its security level is > Word-bound's. > "But I don't know - > "Don't you trust in God, celestial-citizen?" > (swetting) "Of course I do-- "LIAR!" *Smite* [Hal-O-GLW-3 arrives soon after...] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:38:08 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> What good are tethers? > What purpose do tethers serve? I don't see any reason for their > existence. Sure, they make it easier to go to Heaven or Hell, but the > As far as I can tell, they're big and noisy targets. But I get the Well, THAT might be the use to them...keep the other side busy trying to storm your tethers (which are fortified, well defended, easy to reinforce, and you know right where they all are), while you go get the REAL work done someplace quiet...{Plus, Michael needs SOME excuse for getting those horrendous military budgets through the Seraphim Congress...uh, Council.} > feeling that there should eb more to them then that. A tether to > Andrealphus should increase the level or moral turpitude in an area, Though, personally, I like this idea a lot better...not necessarily in the AREA, in most cases, but at least within ITSELF. (Eg. research bonuses in Yves's Tethers, appetites increase in Haagenti's, etc.) Generally subtle...nothing a human would consciously even associate with the PLACE, though some intuitive connections would probably be made. Even Celestials, in most cases, would have to think about it, and probably be wrong a lot of the time...(you know; the library just happens to BE well organized and HAS a couple rare books, but it's not actually a TETHER...) > I've been toying with the idea that Celestials cannot enter the corporeal > plane without using either a tether or dream-walking. This would make it Though that's not actually too bad an idea either...it'd also make a reason for keeping Tethers secret and guarded, since otherwise the Opposition would just stake you out from the hotel across the street and know all your comings and goings in an area... I ALSO tend to see Tethers as places that can funnel Essence to their owners, just like they draw on the souls in their Celestial domains... {Back in the old discussions about Sloth, I'd had in mind an adventure seed sort of thing about a forgotten Tether of Sloth that, since its owner was gone, had just been...pooling Essence. The area around it would be, of course, falling into decay - well, torpitude, more - as its effect gradually spread out since the energy wasn't being FUNNELED anywhere anymore...while inside the opium den (what else?) the effects were so concentrated that Ofanim would risk gaining Dissonance every minute they were IN the place, and anyone else would have to make Will roles at the same rate just to do -ANYTHING-...all the Soldiers who'd served there starved to death some time ago, while the Demons survive because, well, it's not like they NEED to get up and eat...} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:18:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness In a message dated 97-09-26 01:01:21 EDT, you write: << > >I strongly disagree with this. You can have Dark without Light -- > >it's called Darkness. :) There doesn't /have/ to be symmetry here. > I don't think so. The subjective nature of such qualifications require the > two ends of the scale in order to place examples somewhere on that scale. >> I have always had a problem with the whole "you have to have evil to have good" concept. It's a lot like saying that until something breaks nothing can be whole...it inverts the order of events. Harmony can exist without disharmony...in fact requires a lack of disharmony. There can be good *in* evil...sometimes beautiful music is made BY breaking a rule...sinister tones and such. But evil needs good for it's existance far more than good needs evil. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:46:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness In a message dated 97-09-26 12:58:19 EDT, you write: << .... okay, at this point in the mail I was just completely rambling. So who knows if it ever meant anything. >> Actually, sir, I rather enjoyed your mad ramblings. Pray sir, please ramble more often... On the topic of the Hell: In my continuum Hell did pre-exist the fall. God hasn't exactly said why, but the indication is that no one actually had to choose to go there. It has a purpose other than to be occupied. As far as the rebels...they did get that chance to reconsider, but it was a little different back then. Back when they were happy with existance they were Angels. They misused their freedom of choice and turned to various evils. Pride, envy, greed, etc. They fell and were outcasts *inside* of heaven. This is possible in my own game...but usually heaven directs the angel to a place of spiritual healing. Often however an angel has some attatchment to his evils and doesn't want to go. Also, such angels usually find the smiles in heaven too painfully bright. Once the demons fell (were at the outcast stage) they became plotters and conspirers, planning the coup. The coup itself involved so many discordant acts as to assure the final fall. As for fear of Hell? The coup was lead by God's best, his brightest, his favorite angel. I really don't think they ever imagined that they would lose. Lucifer probably thought that he would throw God in hell, or maybe keep God around to serve him... Lucifer did flee into Hell, but this was an act of extreme desperation. My universe is somewhat dualist, in that Heaven and Hell are both infinities...but one is a subset of the other, that is to say, a smaller infinity. In my own game, Lucifer represents a bit of a quandry to some. The game isn't fair. He can't win. Angels can look and they can see this. But Lucifer won't quit, and he's the master of delaying the inevitable. The inevitable IS closing in on him, but he has dragged things out so much longer than any of the angels ever thought he could... Hope you enjoyed my mad rambling as much as I enjoyed yours - -Calabim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:35:29 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > > I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) > > > > Andre > > I'm sure they'd dress appropriately, most dread Prince Andre. > > (Hey, another reason to wander around in the spandex and leather...) Hmm - I'm wondering if Lilim of Lust is too far out of reach for me, considering the last couple of months... (And wouldn't a LoL just clean up at Pennsic, too. Poor Bishop would be a prime target - all that money, all that Lust...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:35:29 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's > >Plus, I prefer the big-screen TV... > > I *really* like the set of several TVs that the local Disney store > has -- sometimes they use it like one huge-screen, sometimes they're > all individual, sometimes four of them are being one big screen > while the others are individual... > > Kyrio TV! Hehe! Though I am finding myself wishing more and more that I was a Kyrio. Feh... > >> Just make sure that not everyone they meet is a celestial, soldier, > >> or child of the Grigori... > > > >And make sure that important things in history often happen *without* > >supernatural interference. If I catch the guy who wrote the Chicago > >Fire, the eruption of Pompei, and lots of other historical events > >all into the backgrounds of two fighting elder vampires... > > You'll introduce him to a Malakite of somebody? Probably Fire. (Oh yeah, boy - you need to burn...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:14:34 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: Re: IN> Fisuba, The Demon of Abuse > From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" > Subject: IN> Fisuba, The Demon of Abuse You trying to start something, huh? You got a problem? I'll meet you outside afterschool. Yeah, by the tetherball courts. You bring your demons and I'll bring my angels and we'll settle this - Celestials to Celestials! (That showed 'im.) Chris Eng, Mundane Servitor of Suzanne - The Angel With The Golden Gun ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:12:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > > it is, after a fashion, a horror movie, though in the sense of _The > > Omen_ more than, say, _Hellraiser_... it's not particularly gory, > > either - you might say that it is more of a tragic story than a horrific > > one... plus, the idea of a Second War in Heaven is really spiff... > > Hey, I've got nothing to do tonight, I've got a video rental card - > what the Hell? Wow. Saw it. Very good - lots of good examples on how Celestials work. Gabriel seemed a lot like a Habbalite of Saminga with the ability to make mummies, for example. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:05:13 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Housewives (Long) > From: Dorothy Bixler > Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Housewives (Long) > > I like her. I would have probably given her a little charisma though (it > would help her when trying to get the battered housewives to trust her- > trust is usually a huge issue in abused spouses). Yeah, you're probably right about the charisma. > A couple of quick questions- Does she include househusbands as well? I > assume she got her word before stay-at-home dads got more common, but how > does she feel now? And finally- how does she feel about abusive wives? Househusbands aren't really her area, but she respects them enough. And as far as abusive WIVES go - That pisses her off to no end!! She goes around trying to help out the housewives, making sure they are safe and okay, and then they go and pull the same crap?! Nuh uh! She doesn't stand for it! How are you supposed to make a good name for yourself when people go and undo all of your best efforts? To her way of thinking, there's no need to be docile and servile, but you don't have to be emotionally destructive and violent either. Finding a happy medium is the Heavenly option. Chris Eng, Mundane Servitor of Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:12:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: RE: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's > >Plus, I prefer the big-screen TV... > > With quad speakers and Surround Sound. Do you like butter on your > popcorn? Oh, forget the popcorn. I already ate it. You may be carrying this metaphor farther than it's worth, but yes. > And don't bother looking for the remote control. (Mmmm. Remote > Control.) Dear, I *am* the remote control... > >And make sure that important things in history often happen *without* > >supernatural interference. > > I almost agree. Important things often *begin* without > supernatural interference, but once word gets out that something > big is up, celestials will be drawn to it like flies to manure. > (Are you getting hungry too?) Maybe. But I don't like the idea that Celestials get heavily involved with every important event. > We don't necessarily cause the biggest events in history, but we > certainly attempt to influence the outcome if we can make it there in > good time. There are too many things to eat - uh, too many advantages > to be gained - to pass up attendance at the Big Events. I know they have the power to, and logically they should. But I don't like the WoD feel it brings... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:12:55 +1000 From: jumpshot@iniaccess.net.au (Karen J Davies) Subject: IN> Thanks Thanks for help from several sources regarding perception and Saints...though the Saints thng still confuses me a little. I think I gotta a handle on it though. Wish me luck for next weekend... Sabbatt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:46:27 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Needing Light for Darkness >So let's get real basic here. Pizza. The existence of pizza means at least >the existence of the conceptual concept of no pizza--as terrifying as that >may be. If you've got a concept of something, you automatically get at >least the concept of not having that something. Actual existence is neither here nor there; we're talking concepts here. On the other hand, you do NOT need the concept of pizza in order for pizza not to exist, which is where this analogy fails. Darkness is not the presence of darkness-- it is the absence of light. Darkness is not a thing. It is not a substance or a force. It is a word we use to describe the condition of there NOT being something else present. If there was no light, there would be darkness and nothing else, by definition. Of course this takes the Light/Darkness metaphor far beyond the Good/Evil analogy. But to recap: no, Lucifer doesn't *need* God in order to be relevant. If there was no God, his view of reality would be unopposed, and he would in effect become God. Lucifer wants his will to predominate in the Symphony-- it doesn't matter whether or not an opposing view exists with which to contrast his. (The lack of an opposing view would simply make it easier for him.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:37:09 -0400 From: "Steven Ehrbar" Subject: IN> Re: Malakim, Lucifer Ok, my vision of Lucifer as a Fallen Malakim has been bouncing around my brain some more, so... A Fallen angel becomes an inversion of their distinguishing characteristic. Seraphim go from being beings of truth to beings of lies, Cherubim from loving protectors to obsesssive stalkers, Elohim go from rational to emotion-driven, Kyriotates are multiple while Shedim are singular, and Merecurians stop helping humans, instead draining them. And the perversion of the selfless, honorable, oath-bound Malakim? The selfish, honorless, oath-breaking Lucifer. But that is not the whole story. Malakim, more than any other choir are self-limited (by an individual code of honor), instead of Symphony-limited. Lucifer discovered this applied to power, too, and moved to exploit it (Isaiah 14:13-14). God objected, so Lucifer rebelled and offered any who would aid him a share of power in a new Symphony. Lucifer was temporarily weakened when he separated himself from God's Symphony, and Michael hurled him from Heaven. Since then, Lucifer has taught his followers how to create their own personal symphonies (IN, p.140). At the same time, he is crafting a grand Infernal Cacaphony to destroy and replace the Symphony (Screwtape Letters, letter XXII). Anyway, that's my take on Fallen Malakim, Lucifer, and The War. The demons really are evil, the angels (even Dominic and the Malakim) are good, and Lucifer is utterly corrupt. Blame it on my Roman Catholic father and Southern Baptist mother. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:46:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angel of Housewives and Gratuitous Profanity >>>Now, unless you have a radically different dictionary from mine, yours should contain an entry something along the lines of, "Gratuitous: unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified."<<< Yup. I'm not arguing that wife-abusers and a "Barb Wire-meets-Dirty Harry" angel who goes around blowing them away aren't likely to use foul language. Of course they are. I am saying that it is not *necessary* to use foul language when writing a scene involving them. Nearly any scene involving nearly any type of person may involve profanities, because profanity is very common, especially nowadays. That doesn't mean it is NECESSARY to put four-letter words in a character's mouth in order to make that character believable. In fact, the ability to depict a gritty, ill-mannered, even vile sort of person without having to resort to language that might be offensive to some readers is one of the things that separates good writers from sophomoric hacks. Note that in all the In Nomine material published thus far, I recall ONE four-letter word, used by Nicole in "A Bright Dream", and it was skillfully used, establishing her hard-edged personality and cluing the readers in to the fact that In Nomine isn't aimed at kids. In Nomine vignettes could easily have the characters peppering their dialogue with profanities in every sentence-- it would be quite realistic (especially for demons). But it would also be gratuitous. Note: *I* was not offended by the gratuitous profanity. I use words like that myself when sufficiently provoked. >;D But this is a public, unmoderated list. Usually it's simply considered bad manners to use such language in such a venue, just as it's considered bad manners to swear in public (yes, I know a lot of people have bad manners....) >>>That's not entirely true. Do you consider calling your spouse, "Stupid," abuse? It is. Just because it doesn't leave bruises doesn't mean it's not damaging. There are many different kinds of abuse and the physical aspect is only one of many.<<< Thank you for enlightening me, oh Sensitive Man of the 90s. Yes, I know verbal abuse and emotional abuse is also bad. Though depending on the context, I would not say that calling someone "stupid" is automatically verbal abuse. (Hmm, does Suzanne kill men who call their wives "stupid"? Or just hang them off the balcony by their ankles until they promise to bring roses home tomorrow evening?) I still say that most housewives aren't abused, certainly not to a degree that would require an angel to go around executing their husbands. >>>Most housewives are railroaded into thinking that it is their duty and obligation to perform chores and housework, take care of children (in the case that there are some), make all the meals, and take care of any incidentals like yardwork. Most suffer some kind of loss of self-worth because they have been guilted into thinking that they have done their job improperly.<<< Talk about broad, unsubstantiated generalizations. I will certainly agree that there are many housewives who fit the above description. There are also many housewives who would take great offense at such a stereo-typed, patronizing description. (But I'm sure they just don't know any better, the poor, deluded, abused creatures.) >>>Incidentally, a number of a very high order (I believe it's somewhere in the high 60%'s) of women admitted to hospital emergency rooms are there as a result of spousal abuse.<<< Yes, but that does not mean that 60% of women are abused. A high percentage of teenage deaths are caused by suicide -- this doesn't mean that a high percentage of teenagers are suicidal. It means teenagers don't usually die from natural causes (in fact, most teenagers don't die), so of course suicides will make up a significant percentage of those who do. Most women don't wind up in the hospital emergency room. It makes sense that many of those who do are victims of abuse. >>>As for why she should be the Angel of Housewives as opposed to Abused Women, well haven't I already addressed that?<<< Not very well. Celestials are usually expected to cover all aspects of their Word. The "Angel of Housewives" suggests to me someone who would certainly be concerned about spousal abuse, but also someone who would be concerned about finding new and improved ways to remove those awful stains from carpets, and a nice casserole recipe using leftovers for those nights when you only have 10 minutes to prepare dinner before taking the kids to their soccer game. And let's not forget some nice spicy romantic stories to relieve the tedium of the emotionally-deprived (or to give them inspiration to spice up their marriages...) That would also fit into Suzanne's original role as a Servitor of Blandine. You have her solely obsessed with abused housewives. So if she doesn't particularly care about women who are raped or abused if they aren't married (or if they are married but happen to have an outside job), perhaps she should be the "Angel of Abused Housewives". Possibly a servant of either the (much broader in scope) Angel of Abused Women or the Angel of Housewives. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:20:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:14 AM -0400 9/25/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: > >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > [...] > Lessee... Thor was last seen holding off six Malakim. Loki and Odin > are definitely kicking around. Valkyries and Einheriar are around. Hugin, > Munin, Freke, Gere & Sleipner made it. Heimdall & Hela survive. And as > for the rest, "many of the Aesir" escaped. > Thanks for the info. That helps a lot. (I hope to have Marches by Sunday...) I just had a thought, though. Since Odin is usually associated with the air element... and Odin has been known for doing his share of trickery. Perhaps Janus is actually *Odin*. > >> [...] > >> >But what if there's a group of humans who knows -- or perhaps suspects -- > >> >the truth about the Symphony? Maybe God *did* rewrite the Symphony "in > >> >His own image", casting Himself as Creator of all things; where He is the > >> >Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent; He is the Alpha and the Omega. > >> > >> Hrm..... Maybe they're the ones who corrupted the Grigori? > > > >Wow. Talk about tangents! :) > > Thank you. I try. > > >Sure.... why not? Who would it be? It would most likely be a secret > >society of some sort, on the order of the Illuminati, or the Knights > >Templar. And what would be their motivation for doing such a thing? > > Gain allies, topple the structure that an Ethereal Jehova created? > Hmmm... yyyyeeeahhhh..... I can do something with that.... Heh... > >Now, wait a minute. I just had a thought (they're rare, yes; I try to > >keep it to a one-a-day maximum). In Nephilim (by Chaosium), the histories > >of the Nephilim and the Templars are entertwined. [...] > >Perhaps their Plan is to rewrite the Symphony *yet again*, so that God, > >the Demons, the Angels are all out of the picture.... > > > >Hmmm..... the mouth salivates.... > > Sparked a plot seed, did I? > More than a plot seed.... a campaign direction. > >> [scribbles down stuff] > > > >I start to sweat when an LE starts scribbling.... usually means > >trouble's-a-comin'! :) (you wouldn't do that, though, would you? :) ) > > Who, me? > LOL. (I knew there was more than one reason I subscribed to this list...The people here have sparked *more* than their fair share of latent neurons since I joined, and made me laugh while they did it...) :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted On 1997-09-27 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Wow. Saw it. Very good - lots of good examples on how Celestials >work. Gabriel seemed a lot like a Habbalite of Saminga with the >ability to make mummies, for example. so you just made a typo? good... ;) yeah, it is very much *the* movie for IN players... for myself, i see Simon as being an Elohite of Yves or Michael, probably Yves... Gabriel as a Habbalite did not occur to me... i like it... and, if Simon is an Elohite, that is particularly interesting - Habbalah are, of course, Fallen Elohim... what did you think of the strange twist of Lucifer being a major help? might be that Gabriel was turning/had turned renegade, and Lucifer wanted to recover him? always fun to reinterpret a story in another framework... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert "Hell is empty, and all the devils are here." -- Shakespeare Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted On 1997-09-26 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Hey, I've got nothing to do tonight, I've got a video rental card - >what the Hell? judging from what you wrote later, you might have ended up renting _The Omen_ instead of _The Prophecy_ (1995)... _The Omen_ is good, too, but of a somewhat different nature, and not so conducive to Celestials' plot seeds as _The Prophecy_ (1995 - i keep writing this, as there was a really bad horror flick of the same title in the 70s)... the two are easy to put into the same "genre", just as (say) _War of the Worlds_ and _Footfall_ are to each other... same genre, different meanings... >> well, that may be because the people who wrote _Mage_ didn't >>really understand what they were doing... i like the *idea* of >>_Mage_, but the execution is terribly flawed... >I dropped most of their execution like a wet rag, but it still >doesn't work very well. It might work with *really* good RPers, or >in a good story, but for most gamers, it promises to degenerate into >Calvin-ball. but Calvin-ball is really fun! and results in strange things like Calvinism... (ok, i'll stop with the bad religious puns... ;) i do agree with you, and i can't think of how they could execute it so that it would work... but the *idea* is a good one... >> well, i think that _Voodoo_ doesn't really come from this >>perspective, except perhaps in the interpretation that the >>spirits can take on forms that are meaningful to humans... but >>the spirits themselves are independent, free-willed creatures >>that don't require humans in order to exist (in my own >>interpretation)... >It was mentioned at one point, and it hit a raw nerve, I guess. hmm... i don't remember seeing that, but it wouldn't be that important, anyway... there is little enough material on exactly how spirits work in that game that it becomes easy for a gm to introduce any interpretation s/he likes... >There are other small things about it that turned me off to it as >more than a sourcebook - it seemd too closed. The main bad guys >were defined, there was very little feeling of space to games. well, the Voodoo game that i am not running (for lack of good enough players, who share enough of my own vision to prevent too much discord) rewrote pretty much the entire background, leaving only the main conflict of Afro-Carribean religions vs. European Secret Societies (and nasty Cthulhoid Devourers as the True conflict)... >I kinda liked the coming into power thread from WW, though after the >second game that seemed to cover it, it got a little boring. The >standard feel for them tends to be "the world sucks, and at most you >can be a stopgap, or maybe fix yourself". i'd argue that that is inevitable in an adolescently-themed "dark" game (by which i mean the aforementioned "coming into power", or "growing up" theme)... i note that there are many more adolescents who are in the grips of (dreaded word) "angst" than adults... i think that this is very much due to the pressures of coming to terms with newly-acquired "power" and attendant responsibilities... adults take the responsibility as an inevitable corollary to the power, where adolescents, new to it all, chafe at the responsibility, while marveling at the power, seeing each as separate, not understanding yet the symbiotic relationship there... whoa... can't believe i just wrote that... >> i said that moral choices were difficult, not that they were >> impossible... if you are tough, smart, and lucky, you can find a >> situation in which you could just kill Asmodeus, without serious >> repercussions to your own side in the War... chances are, though, >>you will splatter on someone's windshield - and, more likely >>still, such luck will evade even the toughest and smartest... >Okay - we're approaching the same thing from different sides, then. looks that way... >> for tone, i guess you could say that i like the feel of a Raymond >> Chandler novel: "Down these mean streets a man must go who is not >> himself mean"... Chandler was a hero, an idealist poet >>masquerading as a genre hack, and that one line is perhaps one of >>the best ever penned in English... Chandler understood the >>absurdity of idealism, but never abandoned it... >I like the line...hmmm, I feel a plot seed. since you have a video rental card, you might also look for _The Third Man_, which stars Joseph Cotten and Orson Welles... this is another exploration of very murky moral ground... Cotten's character makes every "right" choice in terms of loyalty, then love, and finally morality, and ends up with nothing... not so good for a rpg session, but excellent as exploration of the futility of ideology - *any* ideology... but, like i said, i am a sucker for futile causes... >> another example of the kind of murky, bizarre moral conundrum i >> enjoy is the end of _Watchmen_... i look for ways to include that >> sort of distressingly difficult situation in my own games... >Oh, bother - I assume you're refering to the comic? I haven't >encountered it i do recommend it - it may very well be the best comic book ever (excepting _Tales of the Beanworld_)... >(though if your recommendation on _The Omen_ is good, >I may have to). err... that was _The Prophecy_ (1995)... _The Omen_ is a very different thing, more clearly black-and-white, with a very depressing ending... but it is of the same general fabric as _The Prophecy_, though that last has a much more heroic ending, and is less contrasted in terms of who is good and who evil... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert The stars blazed like the love of God, cold and distant -- R. Zelazny Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 07:31:07 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing (longish) Previously, from the desktop of Casca : >> BTW, the whole "Son of God" thing in my campaign gets a little >> convoluted. Nobody's quite sure what happened, but there's a rough-hewn, >> crennelated marble statue of Jesus in extreme pain, on the grounds >> outside the building of the Seraphim Council. And to the question of >> "What was he," my response is "Which one?" >You've piqued my interest with this one. Would you mind going into >further detail? Soitenly! Here's the way I've set up this particular controversy in my campaign, with an eye toward maximum heresy: Yves wanted to conduct one of those philosophical experiments that he's so infamous for, and selected Jesus son of Joseph (yeah, right) as his agent. He had Gabriel herald this child's birth, saw to it that an angel was on hand at times to teach the young Soldier of God some songs. Later on, Jesus started getting a little, well, "dissonant" would be a strong word. Let's just say he went just slightly 'round the twist, and started believing the stories himself. The angel that had been his tutor before was given a role so he could stay near Jesus and keep him reined in. Even so, he claimed that he would achieve life everlasting and would return. That was a slip-up that Yves didn't quite prepare for. Incidentally, that angel's role was Judas. Jesus' crucifiction was a brutally necessary element for the martyrdom to have maximum effect. He was told by Yves to betray him for just that reason. He would have done it for nothing, but the price of thirty pieces of silver lent the set-up veracity. He died on the cross and was entombed in the cave. Exit Jesus #1. All well and good. But this is where the story gets a little bizarre. A demon of Saminga broke into the cave (they do that from time to time), eliminated the old body (which process, incidentally, left the imprints on the Shroud of Turin, but muddled the scientific data to make its precise age indeterminable), and used the Song of Forms to make himself up like the dead soldier. Here was Jesus #2. He made one or two brief appearances around town, trying to undo the work of Jesus #1. And of course, there were angels in the area since Jesus' death was such an important event to so many Words. Several of them were about to make their feelings known to him (violently) when there was a flash of light and he simply vanished. The expression on his face was described as heavily pained, and the statue of Jesus outside the Seraphim Council building appeared at precisely that moment -- in no way, shape, or form a coincidence. That statue is the demon Jesus #2, frozen in Heaven, vaguely aware of his condition, in constant pain from the bright light all around him, and hating every bit of good will around him for, oh, going on two millenia now. Gebbeleth wasn't the only demon ever to see Heaven and "live" to regret it... It was God who did that, by the way. Nobody knows it, not even the angels - -- much as they love him, they might not see the utter irony of this punishment. The demons, of course, would be incensed at this -- except Kobal, who would have a hearty laugh. It was also God that co-opted an angel to go down, take on Jesus' form (in case you lost count, we're up to #3 now), and "neatly write him out of the picture." He went down, said his goodbyes, said he wouldn't be coming back, and vanished. This is a secret between God and the angel who played the role, and nobody -- not even me -- knows where that angel is now. So, whaddya think? Heretical enough? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:06:47 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) > > > > Andre > > I'm sure they'd dress appropriately, most dread Prince Andre. Oops! It *is* a coincidence!! My real name is Andre and... wait a minute... 'most dread Prince Andre'...hmmm...I *love* it...! :-) Prince Andre ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:48:48 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > >Hey, I've got nothing to do tonight, I've got a video rental card - > >what the Hell? > > judging from what you wrote later, you might have ended up renting _The > Omen_ instead of _The Prophecy_ (1995)... Nope - The Prophecy, Christopher Walken as Gabriel (I know he was intended to be *the* Gabriel, but he didn't strike me as Angelic, but Habbalic). Cool examples of high powered Songs, from Celestial Charm (reduce Will to make people listen to commands), the ability to make Mummies, and some Song that knocks people out (Celestial Entropy?). > _The Omen_ is good, too, but of a somewhat different nature, and > not so conducive to Celestials' plot seeds as _The Prophecy_ Is the Omen worth watching? Any other good ones? > >> well, that may be because the people who wrote _Mage_ didn't > >>really understand what they were doing... i like the *idea* of > >>_Mage_, but the execution is terribly flawed... > >I dropped most of their execution like a wet rag, but it still > >doesn't work very well. It might work with *really* good RPers, or > >in a good story, but for most gamers, it promises to degenerate into > >Calvin-ball. > > but Calvin-ball is really fun! and results in strange things like > Calvinism... (ok, i'll stop with the bad religious puns... ;) It's fun, *in Calvin & Hobbes*. Have you ever tried playing it in real life? > i do agree with you, and i can't think of how they could execute it so > that it would work... but the *idea* is a good one... It would work better in a cooperative story type RPG better than one that used any real rules. > hmm... i don't remember seeing that, but it wouldn't be that important, > anyway... there is little enough material on exactly how spirits work in > that game that it becomes easy for a gm to introduce any interpretation > s/he likes... Well, the rules didn't really work from a spirit's standpoint, anyway; the game was intended mainly as a human focused game. > >> another example of the kind of murky, bizarre moral conundrum i > >> enjoy is the end of _Watchmen_... i look for ways to include that > >> sort of distressingly difficult situation in my own games... > >Oh, bother - I assume you're refering to the comic? I haven't > >encountered it > > i do recommend it - it may very well be the best comic book ever > (excepting _Tales of the Beanworld_)... I'll look for it, then. > >(though if your recommendation on _The Omen_ is good, > >I may have to). > > err... that was _The Prophecy_ (1995)... _The Omen_ is a very different > thing, more clearly black-and-white, with a very depressing ending... > but it is of the same general fabric as _The Prophecy_, though that last > has a much more heroic ending, and is less contrasted in terms of who is > good and who evil... I got the Prophecy, I wrote the Omen. Duh... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #363 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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