From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 6 13:41:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13893 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:41:27 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA22579 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:30:37 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:30:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199801061930.NAA22579@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #551 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 551 In this digest: IN> WWW site Re: IN> IN cast List and [off-topic] Anime Re: IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble Re: IN> Extinction Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Re: IN> Extinction (was Re: What 'he' finally did) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Destiny or bust! Re: IN> Re: Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats Re: IN> Stopping Celestials with Technology Re: IN> Re: stuff.. Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... Re: IN> Remnants Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Names Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history Re: IN> Destiny or bust! Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:19:04 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> WWW site Thought this might be of interest ;-) http://web.cs.city.ac.uk/pgg/article/Hell jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 10:32:34 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> IN cast List and [off-topic] Anime >(Got TFOS the other day... nice.) Yes, and now that Anime is more mainstream, they explicitly make the association, which they didn't use to do in earlier editions. ObIN: You know you've been playing In Nomine too long when you start assigning Bands/Choirs to people in Japanese fighting games. [I hate fight games, but I love watching people play them...] -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:34:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble > > Hmmmm... I wouldn't mind a WoD "feel" for IN. Wow... That'd be dark, eh? > Then again, I suppose Dark Victory HAS done that pretty well. Of course, > there aren't Mages in it. Yeah, crossing IN and WoD would be REALLY > nice for my group at school. They're pretty heavy into WW. Man, it'd be > awesome to bring in a few angels... he he he... > Don't Celestial Chorus folk already have to deal with them? Or what they believe are angels? Vampires in general view all malevolent spirits as demons, and demonics and angelics can be found in the Tempest. Angels and demons exist in the High Umbra in any event, along with all the other "concept" spirits. > What about Geasa? It'd be pretty boring for Lilim if they can't use their > Resonance on Humans simply because the humans can't have Discord... > > On the other hand, it's a "special case" anyway. > Yes it is, and obviously Gease do affect humans, because there are rules for the difference in how it affects humans and Celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:37:12 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Extinction Certainly evolution occurs. Even though In Nomine is based on religious themes, nowhere does it state that religious texts are conculsively correct. In fact, just the opposite. There's all sorts of little notes saying 'don't take me seriously' throughout the book. Evolution and natural selection are not theories, they are phenomenon. They can easily be reproduced in any laboratory situation. It's not a question of does it happen, it's a question of DID that happen, and in such a way as to refute the biblical story of creation. As to whether or not that story holds true, I point out that In Nomine does support the fact that dinosaurs ruled the Earth. Where is that written? It's on the front page. It clearly states "Steve Jackson Games." Since Steve Jackson himself is such a dinosaur enthusiast, we must assume his games would not deliberately refute the entire history of the cretaceous. Therefore, the biblical creation story is NOT canon In Nomine. - ---LAstley wrote: > does evolution, natural selection etc exist in the IN universe? > liam > == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:48:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history > > Funny, I always figured that conspiracies, Mists, Deliriums, etc. made it > harder for the -supernaturals- to figure out what was really going on and > put mortals -squarely- in the driver's seat in the WoD. > The Mists...sort of, the effect is skewed depending on what type of super is watching. But all supers are immune to the Delirium. > I even started a WoD American History series of posts that had as their > premise that no supernatural force has ever had any measurable effect on > history because supernatural forces are, by and large, absorbed in their > own little pointless battles and can all be more or less trampled by > mortals who know what they want. > I think that this is a bit contrary to WW canon. (Though there is no need for you to blindly follow canon, etc. etc.) The extent to which supers in the WOD are shaped by human opinions or shape them themselves is debatable. Some institutions are controlled by supers, others aren't. Some are controlled by conspirators who are thoroughly human, though not necessarily without supernatural power. The NSA, the Arcanum and the Society of Leopold are canon examples of this. (Of course, WOD supers, having been raised as humans, aren't as qualitatively different from humans as Celestials are.) > ObIN> Maybe a few encounters like this could put the Heavenly/Infernal war > into perspective for your people. > But then there is the question of how much free will humans have in the In Nomine universe. Do Yves and Kronos get the job done, or is it like Good Omens, where demonic evil barely shows up against the background of human malevolence? That humanity is the battleground is, I think, indisputable, but that doesn't mean that they are any more in control than in the WOD. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 10:47:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I've been assuming that Forces are at least a vague concept -- > "the forces that make up our being" and possibly, "he is strong > in physical forces, but his celestial forces are weak". But I've > been twitching, personally, over whether or not they *number* > the wretched things. And the reaction from other posters also adds up to a mix. I ask partly because, when we write casually, we often write as if characters are as aware of Forces as players are, but also because of an idea that has been itching at me. There is a system of Jewish mysticism called Cabbalah (spelled 87 different ways), which is enjoying some popularity just now. One part of the system is the "Tree of Life," a diagram that is supposed to represent the metaphysical structure of the universe AND the soul. It consists of ten "sephiroth" (singular, "sephira"). It's tempting to say Forces = sephiroth = metaphysical "organs," parts of the soul. Then, any well-informed celestial would routinely know about Forces as distinct objects, the way we've all heard of spleens and livers. Of course, there's a problem with the variable numbers of Forces in characters, but I think a little ingenuity could get around that. In fact, I have been considering things. I shall probably post a note on Cabbalistic IN soon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:49:58 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Extinction (was Re: What 'he' finally did) What about Extinction? There's the Demon of Extinction, running around killing the dodo, the dingo, and currently working on tigers and whales. (Passenger pigeons were all man's fault, sometimes people can do bad things on their own.) Fighting him is the Angel of Extinction. He singlehandedly wiped out the dinosaurs in one fell swoop when it became apparent that they would threaten the existence of humanity. The sabretooth cat was phased out when cavemen were getting snapped in two, and small pox and polio are both organisms that he's awfully proud of destroying. - ---Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Garrett Taylor wrote: > > > At first I thought Evolution would be suitable, but that's a general > > word for the process of changing from 'worse' to 'better'. > > I agree that "Speciation" is a better Word as opposite to "Extinction," > but "evolution" as a term in biology just means "change," not for > the better or the worse. Originally, it was just Latin for "unfolding." > > Earl > == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:58:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 > : There's actually a strong argument that they can't > : even learn _Corporeal_ Songs! Unless I misread the Sorcerer > : section, they get their sorcerous abilities, period. > : What about this, Elizabeth? Did I miss something? > > They can definitely learn Corporeal Songs. After all, they have that sixth Force. > The Dozen, IMC, are just the sorcerers who learned the Corporeal Song > of Entropy. This is rare precisely because the demons like to have the > assurance that they'll eventually get the sorceres's soul.... > Sorcerors deal with the wrong people. Messing with demons is just silly. They should stick to levels 1 and 2 Summon, in order to have beings they know they can kick around. Servants aren't good for fighting, but they're brilliant reliquaries with funky abilities. Especially spirits of Stone, if you're going to get into combat. And they can teach you Songs just as well as Demons can. Of course, not all Demons are that funky. Remember that most of them are seven-Force, and I've made some myself who would almost certainly lose in a Will war with my Sorceror. (There are others who would kick the crap out of them.) ObMunchie-Can Lucid Dreaming Sorcerors learn Ethereal Songs? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:18:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. They are the only beings with destinies > and fates (at least in my world) and therefore are the only things that > "count" in whatever ineffible game God (and Lucifer) are playing. Giving > them some ability to me implies that they NEED an ability. > Hmm...the Fated Future Servitor attunement that Kronos gives out can apparently be used on angels and demons. It says person, which is described in the glossary as "any intelligent being". The corresponding attunement under Yves is limited to mortals, but is also cheaper in Essence terms. Anyway, why shouldn't Celestials have Fates or Destinies? From what I can see, their souls are no more or less immortal than a human's soul. It could be that both Fate and Destiny are works in progress, and that you can bounce between them. If my Habbalah of Malphas Redeems and later gains the Word of Healing, is that not an example of Destiny in action? On the other hand, if she gains a Demonic Word and spreads hatred all around her, continuing to serve evil without realising it, is this not Fate? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:44:47 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? >> Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in >> the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? A strange kind of anthropomorphization indeed. Very well, I'll bite. Ofanite in Service to Eli, loaned out to Jean. Probably a bit dischordant. - -Drew Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:07:26 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects - ---------- > From: Earl Wajenberg > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects > Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 3:13 PM > > There are so few forces in a standard entry-level celestial that > one more or less makes a big difference. Do "forces" exist in > the game world as well as in the game mechanics? Would one celestial > say to another, "That Malakite's got to have at least five corporeal > forces"? > It's funny, Earl. I was *just* thinking about this the other day. My GM answer: Yes, they are game-world objects. The implication in the APG, p. 84 ("Most celestialls don't have the power to bind Forces together into a new being[...]Each parent contributes Forces to make up the new being. A parent must give at least 1 Force[...]) is that there is *something* to Forces. As a matter of convenience, the celestials might even call them Forces. To me, though, this is a GM call. I just don't think that they sit there and count Forces like a bunch of reprobate bean-counters... "I have 13 Forces, and you have 6, so NYAH!!!" Most of my characters are 10 Force characters. > How abou Essence points? These are clearly descended from "spell > points" and their cognates, but I never felt that magic users in > these RPGs spoke to one another about how many "spell points" a given > feat cost. But Essence has the same coarse granularity as forces. > It would be reasonable to notice it. > Well, yeah. But I don't know if a celestial refers to Essence the same way he would refer to 'Forces'. In "A Bright Dream", Nicole says, "I used the last bit [of Essence] I had." So they are aware when they are running low (probably much like the fuel gauge in a car), and when they should generate more. I don't think they sit there and study how much Essence certain Rites generate. I'm sure they know that some Rites generate more Essence than others, but unless you're a Servitor of Jean, I don't think the mechanics of it would interest a celestial too much. I would think they have better things to worry about. :) My $0.04 (damned inflation!) > Earl Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:35:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Grigori > > > ---------- > > From: Brandon Quina > > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > Subject: IN> Grigori > > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 12:58 AM > > > > Arrrggghhh! Does anyone but me have this problem? Ive got two > > players that want to be Grigori, for some strange and unusal reason. > > > > I dont understand it myself. There almost extinct, a good number have > > probally fallen. They are disliked by heaven, and probally have > > Dominic on them like a bad rash (them being, basically, an outcast > > CHOIR!). > > > > Sounds like fun. :) > They just can't think of easy ways to kill themselves, like taking the Paranoia, Angry and Berserk Discords along with a Will of 1. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:45:57 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles > Okay, this plus the remark in another post to a bell-curve distribution > makes this workable. But if I were an AA, I'd send to Earth only > those seraphim who are on the more flexible side, or only send them > out on the street with a Mercurian for a keeper. Otherwise this > excruciating honesty is going to blow any attempt at cover. Any. > In fact, if a seraph can bring itself to take a human-looking vessel > and so DECEIVE every casual onlooker into believing it's human, it must > surely have enough flexibility to write "Fred" on a name tag instead > of "Pharadiel, Holy Seraph and Servant of the Most High God, Accept > No Substitutes, Servitors of Judgement Take Notice, Demons Dial > 555-0111 for an Easy Target." > Can I use this phone number? Is this workable? My demons want to know, and it doesn't help that they all think they're very funny. They're over here messing with the phone ANYWAY, so I thought I would ask. :) (Where is my can of Demon-Off?) We seem to be talking about the flexibilty of the Seraph in general, and in my game, my PC Seraph has run into this problem. It's not just a matter of how to answer, it's the entire Seraph philosophy which makes them very difficult to play as player characters. Unless one is naturally obnoxiously truthful, it does get to me very tiring over the long haul. He has, on occasion, made some grumpy grumbly noises about having to be so careful all the time takes the fun out of the game, so as a GM, I do occasionally let things slide without screaming dissonance. It is, after all, just a game and everyone is there to have a good time, not to walk on eggshells. I know people want canon and want to be exact and all that as game masters, but occasionally, it has to take a back seat to the player's general enjoyment of the game. That's my philosophy, up there with Dice are Evil, and the Plot Must be Cool. Oddly enough, this problem doesn't manifest with me playing Balseraphs. I love 'em to death. Go figure. - - Em, Happy Fun Balseraph of the Game. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:40:31 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Destiny or bust! >If my Habbalah of Malphas Redeems and later >gains the Word of Healing, is that not an example of Destiny in action? It all depends on your point of view ;-) - ---- The Demonic Word of Destiny. - --- They say that Lucifer laughed the day the first holder of this word blurted it out as a suggestion. That demon (whose name has been lost) almost lost its nerve and offered to explain it's reasoning but the Prince of Lies just laughed all the louder, and told it to go and try to explain to its superior. Its 'destiny' evidently involved being force-shredded slowly by an unconvinced Kronos. Later, the Prince of Fate reconsidered. It took him a while to weigh up the possibilities but it was undoubtedly a powerful word in the right hands and holding it hadn't seemed to warp its previous holder (in the short period he had known it) other than a noticeable decrease in self-preservation instinct. He called in a few of his more trusted underlings for philosophical discussions about the role of destiny in the pursuance of Fate and petitioned for the word to be reassigned to the one who most impressed him with its vision. Since then the demonic word of Destiny has progressed by leaps and bounds. The demon is able to tap into the secret selfish hope that so many mortals and celestials have that they will turn out to be someone special, someone significant, someone with a high and important destiny, and uses it to drive them to their fates. 'Kill John Lennon' it whispers, 'And your name will go down in the history books. It's meant to be.' 'Purge your country of these parasite aristos,' it says to Robespierre. 'Write your name on the future of your country in their blood. Your destiny is calling you.' People listen. The demonic word of destiny guides everyone who does the wrong thing for the 'right' reasons. Every high ideal which turns out to be fatally flawed in practice. 'Bring your country into the 20th century, and tame the dissidents within your ranks,' it suggests to Stalin. 'No matter what the cost. That's your destiny.' Although subject to intense scrutiny by other demons, and by Kronos, no holder of this word has ever redeemed. They are on so many angelic hit lists that they don't often live long enough, apart from anything else. Although people can be inspired to do things which drag them to their fate by the insinuation that destiny is calling them by name, along the way they sometimes inspire other people in ways that help out the angelic cause. Greatness can be dangerous in the 'wrong' hands. So Kronos stays watchful. *** Nene, Demon of Destiny, Djinn Servitor of Fate Most previous holders of the word of destiny have been Balseraphs, with a couple of Habbalites somewhere along the line. There seems to be something in the very nature of the word which makes holders want to throw caution to the winds in order to make their mark on the symphony. Nene is a manic-depressive Djinn though. Although monumentally gloomy and liable to ramble on the futility of existence most of the time, when he is attuned to a new 'subject' his demeanor changes. When he is on a new target he feels that just maybe he can blaze his own trail into destiny too and drive the futility away. He burns out his attunements, driving them hard and fast into his splintered visions of their 'greatness' which usually involve inventive types of serial murder or high-stakes terrorism. Its not as subtle, nor as ambitious as previous holders of the word have been but seems quite effective. Maybe it really is a stalker's word after all. He'd be a good mentor for demonic PCs (apart from being totally nuts, but who isn't?), or opponent for angelics. Rite: Persuade someone that their fate is actually their destiny (2 essence) Attunements: 'I am your father, Luke'- The user expends a point of essence and makes a roll as per the Balseraph attunement. If it is successful, then for a number of minutes equal to the check digit * user's ethereal forces, the victim will perceive the demon as being someone whose opinion they will naturally tend to respect (ie. if they are religious, they may get the impression of a religious figure or angel, if they are scientific minded they may get the impression of a professor… if its an angel, then they just might wonder if they are talking to a vessel of Yves) - the impression is not a role and confers no knowledge, nor a change in appearance on the user. It's more of an aura, as if every word the demon says emotes 'You feel able to respect my opinion.' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:52:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats > > And so long as the victim doesn't have any area-effect weapons, swarms are > much, much worse. ¥|=) > What you need is a Servitor of Belial with the Incendiary attunement. "You're nearing the bastard now...oh look, every single insect takes 1d6 damage. That's just too bad." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:21:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Stopping Celestials with Technology > There's one other point that nobody's commented on yet, and I might as > well bring it up so people can start worrying... > > During the course of the story, they stripped a Force from a demon. What > did they do with that Force? What *could* they do with it? > I am now going to blatantly rip off an idea from Ghostbusters which was subsequently ripped off by White Wolf for Guildbook: Pardoners. They go into a tank, which can allegedly hold an infinite number of Forces, but which is now reaching capacity, and may one day go critical. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:49:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: stuff.. > >>And all of that is technically a deception. Yes, Seraphim have to walk very > >>fine lines sometimes when maintaining Roles... > > >Is a role a deception? > > i'd have thought so. sure, the higher the role level the more entrenched in > "reality" the alter ego is, but still - it's a celestial *pretending* to be a > human. the seraph player in my game didn't take a role, but if he had i'd > probably be giving him some serious stick now... > Em...this is just my take on the matter, but I don't think it's deceptive to have two names. I myself answer to both Kevin Walsh and Caoimhin Breathnach and consider both of them to be my name. I mean, I'm sure that the Celestial Tongue doesn't contain the name "Michael" or "Dominic" in that particular form. The idea of a True Name is dodgy, in my book, and I won't be using it. Any name that someone regularly goes by will become one of their true names. If a Seraph has a role under a certain name, that name is one of the Seraph's true names. And yes, I know I'm contradicting the Marches, but I'm using it for Sorcery as well. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:06:33 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... - ---------- > From: Nathaniel Eliot > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... > Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 1:13 AM > > > : Janus: He is not a Theif!! And neither are his Angels! They may > : MOVE something... > > Janus, the kender of the Celestial Kingdom. (I wasn't stealing it! I > was just moving it. God's will, honest.) > Y'know, you would think that I would have learned by now *not* to drink milk while reading this list. I mean, honestly... :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:11:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Remnants > > I'm guessing that the Djinn resonance doesn't work on Remnants, nor > does the Lilims', since there's no Soul in there to sense. > > -Perry > Djinns don't sense the Soul. They sense the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:11:56 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials In a message dated 1/5/98 9:58:58 PM, gibsonc@NKU.EDU writes: > I was just curious, I used to live in Puyallup, and worked on So. Tacoma >Way. If you neeed a seneschal of lust, there was a dancer at the downtown >De Ja Vu, stagenamed Sabre (Say-Bruh not Saber) that I used to date, want >stat? Actually, it's the club Manager, a Djinn of Lust, who is the seneschal. (Or was...) Some of the dancers are Lilim or Impudites or soldiers, but most are Just Human(tm). Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:26:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? > > In a message dated 1/3/98 8:30:52 PM, lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > >Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > >the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > I'd have to be a Sorceror. It's just me, I think. I'm reclusive, bookish, selfish and don't shave too regularly. My ethical principles would get in the way of advancement but then again, so does my laziness. And it would have the beneficial side effect of helping me to avoid losing my soul. Finding all those animals to sacrifice would be a bother, though. (Look at the rules in that section...you're unlikely to make more than a bare profit in Essence from 10 cats...it's hideous.) I don't remember my dreams either, which is a definite plus in that line of work. Plus I'd like to have 6 Will. And the opportunity to do my "God is just as evil a tyrant as Lucifer, if either of them truly exist" speeches to genuine Celestials. That job has everything. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > "Is it safe?" asks the friend. > > "Absolutely." > > Friend sticks his finger into the beaker, screams, and pulls it out with > severe burns from the acid. Other students laugh at his stupidity, and the > Balseraph grins as he gains a point of Essence. > > "What I meant was, the acid is perfectly safe..." > As i see it, a seraph could have said this, since the balseraph didn't > like, if the balseraph had said," yes it safe to poke your finger in > here," that would have been a lie, and the Balseraph along with a few > classmates would have beleived it to be safe. > Seraphs are not telling a lie if their wording is litterally not a lie. No. Logic games and literal-over-actual-meaning games are the province of the Balseraph, not the Seraph. True, there was no DIRECT lie there, but there was an obvious lie of omission. If you tell a person "it's safe to jump off this bridge", and leave out the remaining "...as long as you have a parachute on", you are lying by omission, big time. Seraphim aren't stupid...they know the differences between literal and actual meanings. A Seraph can't play mind games with the Symphony; he tells the truth. Period. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... ¥|/ ____ ¥|/ ‾@-/ oO ¥-@‾ /_( ¥__/ )_¥ ¥__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:45:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... > > > > what would the opposite of Extinction be? > > Of course, the equivalent to extinction is Purity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:02:39 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Jason Corley wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > > > >>>Can a seraph consider the possibility of having more than one "name"? > > Lots of humans have several.<<< > > > > Only the Seraph's true, angelic name is his *real* name, so all of the > > others would require Seraphic evasions as described previously. > > Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his > Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's > your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. And I don't consider Roles > deceptions at all, in that they don't 'grate on the trueness of the > Symphony' like lies do. In fact, quite the contrary, they're meant to > make the Symphony much smoother and less perturbed. Finally, the whole > -point- of having a Role rather than just pretending to be a regular > person is that you -really are- that Role. (with some nods and winks from > reality, admittedly). So I don't see what the big deal is. I agree. While I liked David's treatment of the Seraphim a lot, this is one part that I am definitely ignoring in my game. If you have a role, it's a way of blending into the symphony; if it were a deception, the main rules would clearly state "Seraphim cannot have roles"--see the writeup of Litheroy for proof of this. Follow that with the logic that if an angel, over time, maintains a dozen or so roles during his 'life', then it would be REALLY stupid to (A) make *every one* of those roles have to be directly drawn from the angel's real name, and stupider still to (B) not even let the angel say that that *was* his name. (A) It makes acquiring a new Role almost pointless if you have enemies out there who knew the old one, and you'll be operating in the same area. "Hey, Strygnax...remember that 'Johan Smith' angel we bodykilled the other day? Well, I happened to overhear that some guy called 'Johanuss Johnson' is in town now, working similar circles. Seraphim are sure dumb, eh? Let's go kill him..." (B) My real name is Jason Levine. Some people call me Jay or Jase. (Some also call me Pee and P.K. [yes, in real life], but since that's an alias/nickname, I'll save that one for a later discussion.) If I introduce myself with "I'm Jay", that's not a lie. By David's standards, if I introduce myself as anything but "Jason Michael Levine", I am technically lying because anything less is not my FULL name. Shortened or casual names are not a lie or a half-truth; they are conveniences. Hell, most angelic names are technically unpronouncable Enochian; by the same standards given here, Seraph should have to use the Singing skill to whistle their names when asked, or get Dissonance. It's silly. Like I said, I like the writeup, but this part was (IMHO) a mistake. I'm just ignoring it and using the rest; David did a very fine job on this difficult choir. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... ¥|/ ____ ¥|/ ‾@-/ oO ¥-@‾ /_( ¥__/ )_¥ ¥__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:00:06 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Names I quite like the idea that every name someone is known by is their true name. I think that for sorcerors, the true name you use in summoning should dictate what aspect of the summoned creature actually turns up (or at least what mood it is in -- so if you use a nickname that only a few close friends know it should be fairly well disposed. If you use its celestial name it should turn up in celestial form.). (Does that make sense?) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:08:18 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? Renegade Balseraph of Kobal. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... ¥|/ ____ ¥|/ ‾@-/ oO ¥-@‾ /_( ¥__/ )_¥ ¥__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:11:16 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles >Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:38:51 -0500 >From: David Edelstein >Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >But someone asking that "mortal" is actually suffering under a >misapprehension that the angel IS a mortal.... and confirming it is adding >to the misdirection. A Seraph *might* be able to use the reasoning you >describe, but he's stepping onto a slippery slope.... My reasoning is, the literal truth is "Zebadiah is Zane Davidson." The seraph has all the memories of Zane Davidson. The Seraph has the personality of Zane Davidson. All the experiences that truly happened to Zane Davidson, happened to the Seraph. And in one of his vessels, the Seraph has the body of Zane Davidson. The memories, the experiences, the personality, the body, they define Zane Davidson, and they have always defined Zane Davidson. And Zane Davidson does not exist apart from the Seraph. Zane Davidson does exist, though. He has friends. He's met people. He has a history, and a life, and presumably, a job. He's got a driver's liscence and a passport. He exists, but only as part of the Seraph. So, from my point of view, the same way that "Tony Stark is Iron Man", Zebadiah is Zane Davidson. Unless he took over the life of a human named Zane Davidson, in which case Zane Davidson is dead or elsewhere, and the Seraph is taking a quick trip downstairs. As for suffering under missaprehensions that Zebadiah is human, the human would still be suffering under the same misapprehension if the Seraph said "I am Zebadiah" or "My name is Zebadiah." And probably would continue to suffer under that misapprehension until Zebadiah shows the human his Celestial Form, or performs a few miracles, regardless of how he introduces himself. Sure, humans will assume that "Zane Davidson is Human." Of course, they'll assume that you're human if you're wearing a Vessel. In which case, wearing a Vessel could be considered a lie, because you're saying to everyone you meet "I'm a human male, 5'7" with green eyes and black hair, not a thirty-foot long translucent-looking six-eyed winged snake." That makes Seraphim virtually unplayable, or at least requires them to go around with "Seraph" branded on their foreheads, as well as making it trivial for them to spot Celestials in Vessels. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:16:49 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > > Funny, I always figured that conspiracies, Mists, Deliriums, etc. made it > > harder for the -supernaturals- to figure out what was really going on and > > put mortals -squarely- in the driver's seat in the WoD. > > > > The Mists...sort of, the effect is skewed depending on what type of super > is watching. But all supers are immune to the Delirium. That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. > > I even started a WoD American History series of posts that had as their > > premise that no supernatural force has ever had any measurable effect on > > history because supernatural forces are, by and large, absorbed in their > > own little pointless battles and can all be more or less trampled by > > mortals who know what they want. > > I think that this is a bit contrary to WW canon. Not really...you just have to say that the supernaturals are both ineffectual -and- deluded. Jason the terrible two ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:20:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Destiny or bust! If I didn't have Slothful/4, I'd write up my Angel of Sorcery, who is definitely going to be a Malakite of Blandine + Yves. My inspiration was p 11 of the Marches, under Little Dreams. "Another type of dreamer especially favoured by Blandine is the ambitious madman - any human who dream of building an empire, making a new nation or toppling an old one is likely, too, to be favoured with an angelic guardian." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:21:12 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Sam Kington wrote: > Jason Corley wrote: > > Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his > > Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's > > your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. > > This is again, I would rule, borderline: when people ask you "what is > your name?" they tend to mean your *real* name, the most official one. Yes. Think about what you just said. They want your OFFICIAL name. The one that is (in their view) the REAL one. When a person asks that question, unless they're a Celestial or Soldier, then 99.999999999999999% of the time, they mean "What is the name that the government and most of humanity knows you by? What is on your driver's license and birth certificate?" The MOST truthful answer to that question would be the name of your role. In fact, the question, "What's your name?" almost always means "What's the name you go by?" when asked by a friend or acquaintance, and almost always means "What's your official, government- recognized name?" when asked by an official. For either of those, the most truthful answer is the name of your Role. One has to take context into account. Different people in different situations can say the same words, but be ASKING different things. It must be heck for a Seraph at times... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... ¥|/ ____ ¥|/ ‾@-/ oO ¥-@‾ /_( ¥__/ )_¥ ¥__U_/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #551 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.