From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 28 22:45:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01046 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:45:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA27596 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:48:18 -0600 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:48:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199801290448.WAA27596@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #600 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 600 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilith a human? Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Re: Raphael) Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Was Re: Raphael) Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth Re: IN> Heaven and Hell Re: IN> Test and Greetings Re: IN> Heaven and Hell Re: IN> Test and Greetings Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth IN> Intervention stuff Re: IN> Heaven and Hell Re: IN> Role Problems IN> Becoming a Superior IN> Doing something behind his DP's back IN> Review: "Low Estate," by Sixteen Horsepower IN> PBMs Re: IN> Lilith a human? Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) IN> Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH Re: IN> Re: Role Problems Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back Re: IN> Lilith a human? Re: IN> Lilith a human? Re: IN> Review: "Low Estate," by Sixteen Horsepower ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:11:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? At 9:48 PM +0000 1/27/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >Maybe that's why Hell has more troops than Heaven (another >> >factoid buried in the APG); Lucifer's been upgrading humans (yes, >> >I know that canon says this ain't done. Canon has been known to >> >change). >> >> Humans cannot become celestials. If Lilith *is* a human, she's >> a Superior-level human ("UberSaint!"), not a celestial. Not really. >> So long as I'm LE, human souls and celestial souls *will* remain >> distinct. > >Well, I'd point out that the distinction can become insignificant at >the game level. At least one superior (Yves) can add the resonance >and dissonance conditions of a choir to anybody who has his highest >Distinction (the name escapes me). So what's the difference between >an UberSaint of Yves with the Elohim resonance, and a powerful Elohim >of Yves? The Line Editor bares her Djinn fangs at the author who tried it for publication? I'll think on it. (One thing is that they don't have Hearts -- and probably *couldn't* take dissonance. They might take Body hits or Soul hits instead. Interesting notion...) >A related question(s): Any ideas on what would happen to a vessel >using angel of Yves that took the Kyrio resonance? Would they loose >the vessel? Would they not have as many forces available for use (as >per Kyrio of War)? And would they kept the vessel, would they get >dissonance if it got frotzed? Check what happens when a Bal of Fate takes Kyrio resonance. I think that's in the FAQ? [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:13:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty At 11:58 PM -0500 1/27/98, Raoul Duke wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Everyone is, however, aware that *some* of the "teasers" in the >> main book were there to use in cycle-books? (Though some >> weren't, necessarily...) >Hmm. Is it unkosher to ask which bits are which? Um. At this time, maybe. I'll have to ask. >For that matter, what >are plans for the line after Revelations/IPG/Liber are all done? (I have >a fair idea, I think...) Again, I'm not sure we get to blab yet -- but there's something definitely planned. (And a few suggestions for the one after *that*, too!) [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:16:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Re: Raphael) At 8:44 AM -0500 1/28/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> >No, no, really. I have no problems. Look at the rest of my players. Are >> >they complaining from 'Lack of Angst'? Nope. >> >> Does this mean I don't have to self-generate my own angst, then? > >I'm certainly not going to stop you, any time soon. :) Oh, great, she's doomed. Angst from the player, trouble from the GM... >>>How come, when I see 'evil plot', all I can think of is a patch of really >>>nasty crab grass. "My GOD! That patch on the lawn! It's an... EVIL >>>PLOT!" >>> >>>*wring hands* "You may have foiled my plot this time, but I'll get you. >>>Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but soon! Muhahahaha!" >>> >>>- Em, feeling really goofy >> >> Ah, yeah... Now I'm going to think of a patch of >>lawn with tinfoil all over it. A foiled plot. > >AUGH! A PUN! Help Help! I'm being repelled! It's your magnetic personality. Occupuntional hazard for Balseraphs. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:38:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 3:53 PM +0000 1/28/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> > >> >Perhaps if her grace would supply me with a corporeal vessel I would >> >be better suited to pass legal action against those who dare to play >> >In Nomine *incorrectly* (imagine that, the nerve).. >> >> A vessel. Hm. And exactly what sort of vessel do you want? I mean, >> I do have some stock of puppies over here... >> >If I might make a suggestion? If it is punishment that you wish to >inflict on Habbalah, perhaps you should note that it has been observed that >it is far more efficacious to give them a perfectly functional, but >aesthetically unpleasing Vessel than to give them a less functional but >attractive Vessel. Shar-pei puppies. The kind that are all skin. Or perhaps little club-footed ones, with bad breath. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:28:39 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth >You are all suspected of attempting to subvert the laws of Hell with your >gratuitous public backstabbing, and are clearly leaving open an area of >dissent among your ranks which can leave us open to attack from Above. >Some of you are even becoming dissonant. > >If you will just please talk to these agents over here, I'm sure we can >get this all worked out. Oh, and please put this bit in your mouth, it >will make sure you don't bite through your tongue during the questioning >process. Thank you, and have a nice day. > >- Em, Balseraph of the Game I think this is Em's way of saying: "This psuedo-In Nomine tangent has gone way too far. You have all been reported to the Game. Derek will soon be sent after you. Have a nice day." I could really see the Game working like in Paranoia. While there may be some probelems in [deleted for security reasons] - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tongue-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips Plastic Water Pipe Location - The RD500. Receiver features: Visual and audio response. Meter indicates peak response. Battery state indicated at switch on. On/off and sensitivity. That's something to smoke! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:23:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Was Re: Raphael) At 4:26 PM +0000 1/28/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> >Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia, applying for >> >readmission. >> >> Hm. And you have some good reasons why you should have another chance, >> Servitor? *Really* good reasons? >> >No reasons, other than the fact that it is less trouble to accept me back >into your service than to have me eliminated and to bind someone else to >my Word. Or have you changed your mind as to the usefulness of the Word I >hold? Do you care? Care? Don't be obscene. Hm. You do seem to be upholding the Word properly (though Headers are certainly subject to the [...] attribution rule). Okay. You can come back now. I'll tell the Calabim and Habbalah to stand down. But you'll have to meet with me for a while, to get your Heart re-made. Because we wouldn't want you to forget that you were *MY* Balseraph. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:38:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth At 12:55 PM -0500 1/28/98, Casca wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >- Em, Bal of the Game in the service to Nitpicking - but only on Tuesdays >> >> Glad to have you. I think. > >If you're glad, then you care, and that means you're not being a proper >Djinn, now does it? Politeness is part of society. Nowhere does it say that a Djinn can't lie and pretend to care. Look at Andre's. >And I have noticed something in your writeup that doesn't track with >continuity: > > While Asmodeus held his forehead in his hands, torn between fury and > admiration and uncaring, Lucifer smiled and patted him on the shoulder. > "I'm sure Princess Beth will make a good ally." > >I thought AA/DP status was dependent upon -power-, not upon being granted >a Word. Certainly Beth didn't have the Word of Nitpicking prior to the >trial, or else it would have said. The closest it comes is saying that >her -angelic- Word was Evolving Consistency. > >So, either Lucifer made her a full-fledged Princess in addition to >granting her Word (which sets a dengerous precendent), or the writeup is >in error. Of course, one can assume that Lucifer was speaking of the >future, i.e. "If you treat her well, she will reach DP status and become >a valuable ally," but it isn't clear based upon context. Are you going to come down here and tell Lucifer what Words and Titles he can or cannot gift someone with at whim? I mean, you *can* if you want. I can always use some more Balseraphs. (Actually, the Word of Nitpicking had been awarded on a separate occasion, by Lucifer in an amused mood, and Asmodeus had not been notified. Elevating this Word to Superior-level was required as, by Asmodeus' own rules, he would otherwise have to execute her instead of giving her the distinction of Duke. So, much as the Archangel of Archives acts like a high-ranking Servitor of Destiny, the Princess of Nitpicking is closely allied with the Game. Why the title? Well, the list *has* rather been hijacked, wouldn't you say? Besides, if Hardcore can get it, why not Nitpicking? Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more insideous...) [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:36:25 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Heaven and Hell On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jesse wrote: > I just bought Heaven and Hell. 1023? Jean's Hall 23? Jeez, makes me want > a Paranoia-In Nomine crossover. That's nothing. What about the Thing in Laurence's basement? Makes me wanna do a Kult/IN game next time I run (which I won't go into, since I have players on-list, but it'll be fun. For me, anyway). Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:40:43 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Test and Greetings On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Rob Wolff wrote: > I've recently re-joined the In Nomine list-serv, and I look forward to > reading all of the new ideas that people are coming up with. > > Salutations to all the people who I corresponded with previously. Rob, man! I was just asking after you a few weeks ago... Good to have you back on-list. There's an on-and-off talk about converting IN to Buddhism (or at least having Buddhist Soldiers) you could help us out with, if you've got the time. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:55:43 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Heaven and Hell > > I just bought Heaven and Hell. 1023? Jean's Hall 23? Jeez, makes me want > > a Paranoia-In Nomine crossover. > That's nothing. What about the Thing in Laurence's basement? Makes me > wanna do a Kult/IN game next time I run (which I won't go into, since I > have players on-list, but it'll be fun. For me, anyway). > It boggles the mind. Kult? In Nomine? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT! Certainly not me. *cackle evilly* That's a topic of conversationt that comes and goes, coming more then going these days. Maybe it's because I designed Dominic's side of the Spires using the Geburah writeup from Metropolis (although they defined where they Demiurge went, ick.) Maybe it's because I've been reading KULT scenarios lately for ideas and plans. But it just keeps coming up. If you wanna talk KULT offline, I'm all for it. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:44:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Test and Greetings At 1:33 AM -0800 1/29/98, Rob Wolff wrote: >Greetings, List! Welcome back!! >News: I am now married (over Christmas...Wow!), and I've now moved to >the United States! (Pasadena, just outside of L.A.). Maybe I'll even >meet some gamers in America. Congrats! L.A.? Eeep! [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:30:45 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Politeness is part of society. Nowhere does it say that a Djinn can't > lie and pretend to care. Look at Andre's. Oh, well that's different, then. > Are you going to come down here and tell Lucifer what Words and > Titles he can or cannot gift someone with at whim? I mean, you > *can* if you want. I can always use some more Balseraphs. Hm...I appreciate the offer, but I'll pass for now, thanks. I have this morbid fear of death. ;;;) > (Actually, the Word of Nitpicking had been awarded on a separate > occasion, by Lucifer in an amused mood, and Asmodeus had not been > notified. Elevating this Word to Superior-level was required as, > by Asmodeus' own rules, he would otherwise have to execute her > instead of giving her the distinction of Duke. So, much as the > Archangel of Archives acts like a high-ranking Servitor of > Destiny, the Princess of Nitpicking is closely allied with > the Game. Well, this should have been mentioned before, now shouldn't it? Place this in the writeup and Continuity will be maintained. :::) > Why the title? Well, the list *has* rather been hijacked, wouldn't > you say? Besides, if Hardcore can get it, why not Nitpicking? > Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more > insideous...) Rather like nosepicking, armpit scratching or crotch adjusting: everybody does it, but nobody admits to doing it. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:47:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth At 6:30 PM -0500 1/28/98, Casca wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Politeness is part of society. Nowhere does it say that a Djinn can't >> lie and pretend to care. Look at Andre's. > >Oh, well that's different, then. Of course. >> Are you going to come down here and tell Lucifer what Words and >> Titles he can or cannot gift someone with at whim? I mean, you >> *can* if you want. I can always use some more Balseraphs. > >Hm...I appreciate the offer, but I'll pass for now, thanks. I have this >morbid fear of death. ;;;) Death? Oh, I'm sure you wouldn't *die*. Quickly. >> (Actually, the Word of Nitpicking had been awarded on a separate >> occasion, by Lucifer in an amused mood, and Asmodeus had not been >> notified. Elevating this Word to Superior-level was required as, >> by Asmodeus' own rules, he would otherwise have to execute her >> instead of giving her the distinction of Duke. So, much as the >> Archangel of Archives acts like a high-ranking Servitor of >> Destiny, the Princess of Nitpicking is closely allied with >> the Game. > >Well, this should have been mentioned before, now shouldn't it? No. Besides, it's only speculation. After all, Djinn can lie... >Place this in the writeup and Continuity will be maintained. :::) Continuity is not Nitpicking... >> Why the title? Well, the list *has* rather been hijacked, wouldn't >> you say? Besides, if Hardcore can get it, why not Nitpicking? >> Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more >> insideous...) > >Rather like nosepicking, armpit scratching or crotch adjusting: >everybody does it, but nobody admits to doing it. A powerful Word.... [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:18:13 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: IN> Intervention stuff Here's something I was kind of wondering: As unlikely as it would seem, what if opposing interventions were rolled on opposing rolls? Two players are rolling directly against one another, simultaneously in game time, and they get opposing interventions. What happens? My inclination is to have the 111 prevail. He is, after all, God. But the question is, what happens with the 666? Does it mitigate the 111 somewhat? Is it overpowered? Help? Also, what would the difference be between HELPFUL interventions (demon gets 666, angel gets 111) and catastrophic interventions (demon gets 111, angel gets 666)? I could almost see some form of mutual UH_OH! there. Dan giggles as he imagines a race where catastrophic interventions are rolled at the starting line: Marv Albert: There's the gun, and OH MY GOD! Both contestants have exploded at the starting line. YES!!! Well, whatever the result, this occurance would be your cue as a GM to start storytelling with something REALLY cool. Dan Ozdowski Calabite of Anything but Nitpicking - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:18:59 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Heaven and Hell On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I just bought Heaven and Hell. 1023? Jean's Hall 23? Jeez, makes me want > > > a Paranoia-In Nomine crossover. > > That's nothing. What about the Thing in Laurence's basement? Makes me > > wanna do a Kult/IN game next time I run (which I won't go into, since I > > have players on-list, but it'll be fun. For me, anyway). > It boggles the mind. Kult? In Nomine? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT! > Certainly not me. Actually, I was thinking of you when I wrote that, since that was an idea you tossed out ages ago that's stuck with me... And now that I've actually bought the book (2nd ed and Conjuror guides... great content, but man! Did they get the graphic designer from Ray Gun to lay them out or what? Just because magic should make characters' eyes bleed is no reason for that to happen to the GM...), I'm looking for a chance to *use* it. > *cackle evilly* That's a topic of conversationt that comes and goes, > coming more then going these days. > > Maybe it's because I designed Dominic's side of the Spires using the > Geburah writeup from Metropolis (although they defined where they Demiurge > went, ick.) Maybe it's because I've been reading KULT scenarios lately > for ideas and plans. But it just keeps coming up. 'Cause it's good! Kult is really, really good, but it kinda loses its impact once they players know what that entails... > If you wanna talk KULT offline, I'm all for it. Love to. I haven't thought my plans out all that far, but I enjoy just kicking ideas around anyhow. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:15:22 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Role Problems > It might be amusing for an angel to run across a Reliever file > clerk (in its own Role/1 or /2), humming away cheerfully, inserting > bogus records for incoming celestials. Heh. There's one just like this in Night Music... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:03:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Becoming a Superior >>>Incorrect again. I find no references to the Seraphim Council or Lucifer awarding AA/DP status, and plenty of references to those selfsame entities awarding Words.<<< Usually, Superiors achieve Superior status by accruing enough power to be recognized by Lucifer or the Seraphim Council, effecting canonizing a status they have earned for themselves. But Lucifer *can* make someone a Prince by fiat if he wants to. Furfur is an example. It hasn't been established whether or not the Seraphim Council can create an Archangel by acclamation, but even if they can, they probably don't. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:03:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back >>>If you can accept the *possibility* of a PC level Celestial *maybe* doing it on its own, the possibility of Lilith being able to pull it off would be an order of magnitude greater. She is a Superior, after all...<<< She might be able to learn another Prince's attunement, if she really wanted to, and she could probably learn how to bestow it on someone else. But even for a Superior, that has to take a lot of time and effort. It might not even be possible -- it might be that even Superiors need some affiliation with their Word for any attunement they grant. (Otherwise, Superiors would be granting other Superiors' attunements to their own Servitors quite frequently -- there have to be times when Kobal thinks it would be convenient and amusing for his Servitors to have Asmodeus' Humanity attunement, for example, or when Vapula would just LOVE to be able to grant some of Jean's attunements.) So yes, maybe Lilith could do that. *Maybe*. But it seems highly unlikely that anything a mere non-Word-bound Servitor (and probably a short-lived one at that) could ever do for her would be worth her time and effort. Especially considering that that other Superior would probably be mad at *her* if he found out -- if Superiors *can* grant other Superiors' attunements, it must be something that seriously irks the Superior whose attunement is being granted. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:44:54 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Review: "Low Estate," by Sixteen Horsepower Synchronicity is a funny thing. I had just decided to set my In Nomine campaign in North Carolina, when I ran across "Low Estate" by Sixteen Horsepower. If the Old Testament had happened in the Appalachian mountains and the preacher of Ecclesiastes had a second career as a rock singer, he might have made this CD. I suppose that Sixteen Horsepower is technically an alternative country band, but don't come in expecting "my dog ran off with my wife and the banker stole my booze after repossessing my truck." Faith and sin, pleasure and pain, and the possible permutations are the question which David Eugene Roberts and the rest of 16 HP wrestle with. And I mean wrestle with. I figure that Roberts has to be a true believer, because there is no other way he could pour that much 190-proof passion into the lyrics. And his church is a fundamentalist one, of the fire and brimstone variety -- Bishop Sprong would be incinerated by the sheer raw fire of belief here. There is God and Devil, real and present, and man is a weak creature stumbling across the rocky terrain between them. The rest of the band doesn't come off too shabbily either. Banjos, accordions and hurdy-gurdys evoke the folk music of the Appalachians, drums and electric guitars bring in the energy of hard rock, and violins and organs lend the music the gravitas it needs to keep up with the lyrics. This is not to imply that the instrumentation creates a lumpy mix of musical styles; 16 HP is willing to let a single guitar or even an unaided voice carry the song when it's right to do so. Since I figure I've been clear enough about "Low Estate"'s technical merits, let me drop my critical stance and say flat out: I was blown away. You should buy this CD, even if you have to skip meals to do so. It's that amazing. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:33:54 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> PBMs I was just curious if anyone belongs to, or is hosting an In Nomine Play By (e)Mail game, esp. one with an open slot. My gaming group fell apart and I could use a In Nomine "fix." Thank you. - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tongue-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:50:55 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? > >A related question(s): Any ideas on what would happen to a vessel > >using angel of Yves that took the Kyrio resonance? Would they loose > >the vessel? Would they not have as many forces available for use (as > >per Kyrio of War)? And would they kept the vessel, would they get > >dissonance if it got frotzed? > > Check what happens when a Bal of Fate takes Kyrio resonance. > I think that's in the FAQ? >From the FAQ: What happens exactly with the Balseraph of Kronos' Attunement? The Balseraph is bound by everything in the Resonance/Dissonance sections of the Choir description plus any relevant text in the Mechanics section. For example, Bob the Balseraph can emulate a Kyriotate. So Bob could not by a vessel and would have all the other restrictions of a Kyriotate (harming the host, etc). Note that since the Manner and Appearance is not included in the Balseraph of Kronos' Attunement, the 'stunning' affect of Kyriotates in Celestial Form is not available. I'll add a note that an existing vessel is unusable. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 03:58:43 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 16:18 28/01/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >> * The Janus/Valefor question, and especially "How he pulls it off". >> >Well, the essence of the Wind is changability. (Damn, is there supposed >to be an 'e' in there?) (Yes, if you want to be dictionary-correct ;-) ) > >Some more general speculation on the nature of Janus' Fall, if in fact >Janus did Fall, follows. > >On page 121 of the main In Nomine rulebook, it says: >"Although his mission is to promote change, he himself has changed very >little in the past millenia." > >So we have a contradiction here. Catalyst, anyone? (ie. it is possible to be an instrument of change without actually changing yourself). I have a (stupid) theory also. They are two seperate people, and always were. Created at the same time and one of them most certainly followed Lucifer down to Hell. But now they are locked into a continuously changing cycle and about once in every millenia one of them redeems and one of them falls (simultaneously of course), they meet briefly, switch names, and.. no-one else notices. Neither of them know why this seems to be their fate/ destiny. So they are total archenemies, but they know very well that they are so locked together that it would probably be impossible to destroy one without destroying the other. jo (lover of all things changeable and flaky) - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:21:06 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH >>> * The Janus/Valefor question, and especially "How he pulls it off". Well, the APG points to Yves being the same or close to Kronos. It could be that Janus and Valefor represent the same with change. Janus could be for "good" change and Valefor representing "evil" change. The relationship would not be totally antagonistic nor would it be a completely friendly relationship. - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tongue-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: Role Problems > > And there's little chance of a Celestial being invited > > to a High School Reunion for a school he never attended. > > But then you couldn't do the IN version of 'Grosse Point > Blank', which would be a pretty keen plot for a one-off game... It'd be a really cool plot for a newly-appointed Saint: "So what are you doing these days?" "I died and went to heaven. Now I'm a saint - I kill people in the name of the Lord." "Oh - that's nice. How's the pay?" "Pretty good." If his death was obscure enough, his Role might be intact, and his vessel might have some, um, *improvements*. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth > Incorrect again. I find no references to the Seraphim Council or > Lucifer awarding AA/DP status, and plenty of references to those > selfsame entities awarding Words. Night Music, _Demon Prince of Rock and Roll_. > As for how it sets a dangerous precedent: awarding Words is one > thing; awarding titles with the same aplomb is quite another. One > need only look to the the Crusade-era RCC for examples of that. Too > many Cardinals, and the organization becomes topheavy and > inefficient. Who ever said Lucifer wanted efficiency? An efficient organization can replace it's leader quite efficiently. > You realize, of course, that by admitting you are a Balseraph, you > undermine your entire argument? > > -- Casca, Seraph of Archives And you realize that by using an obvious falsehood and claiming to be a Seraph, you undermine yours even worse? The Balseraph resonance, for all it's implications about lying, does not force them to lie. Their resonance is for convincing, which *can* and probably *should* be used best for (selective) truthtelling. [Hehe - fluff, but fun fluff...] Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) > I can buy that he Fell, and I can buy your argument 100% and I'm > certainly willing to, but how does he get back into Heaven? How > does he create angelic servitors? How come no one notices he's a > Calabite? My theory? He's not really an Ophanite or a Calabite. He's something like a Kyrio with multiple personality dissorder; one of the personalities fell, the other didn't. Whether this just happened, or whether God or Yves had some hand in this to make a sleeper agent, I haven't decided yet. It does explain why neither of his forms looks like the typical member of their Choir/Band... > I avoided the intense Need (*stare direly at local Lilim*) to make > them into Demons, the whole lot of them. But then I had so much > ickiness going on, I really needed Laurence to be a Very Good Guy. > And he's a Malakite, ya know. And he looks fabulous in leather. In my game, they are *technically* demons, in that they are already in a fallen state. They don't have a non-fallen state, though. > > > * Why Lilim don't change when they go Bright, other then pick > > > up some wings and so on and so forth. > > > > Because they were created by Lilith and are thus not Fallen? > > Because they are the embodiments of Freedom, which is neither > > good nor ill in itself, but only in its uses? (I find that > > argument unconvincing myself. Lilim don't look like the > > embodiments of Freedom to me.) > > I am unconvinced. Try again. :) Most angels fall by corrupting their resonance. Demons are created with this corrupted resonance. The Lilim resonance is pure, and does not depend on a fallen/unfallen state to remain pure. It is probably a bit of irony that Kobal would enjoy - that the purest beings in the universe are demons. > Yes, but that doesn't explain why I can't get a good haircut in > Shal-Mari. Because being the Demon of Haircuts would just get a demon laughed at? Because you don't tip the frotlings enough? Because Balseraphim don't have hair? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back > >>>If you can accept the *possibility* of a PC level Celestial *maybe* > doing it on its own, the possibility of Lilith being able to pull it > off would be an order of magnitude greater. She is a Superior, > after all...<<< > > So yes, maybe Lilith could do that. *Maybe*. But it seems highly > unlikely that anything a mere non-Word-bound Servitor (and > probably a short-lived one at that) could ever do for her would be > worth her time and effort. I can think of some incentive coming from Kobal or one of his Word-bound (such as the Calabim of Highly-Ammusing Deaths), on the side. > Especially considering that that other Superior would probably be > mad at *her* if he found out -- if Superiors *can* grant other > Superiors' attunements, it must be something that seriously irks > the Superior whose attunement is being granted. There is that - she has to worry about the politics. OTOH, if she were either good allies or horrible enemies w/ the other Superior, it wouldn't matter as much - the first would understand her reasons (though he might toast the resulting character), and the second can't get any *more* pissed. Maybe a Lilim of the other Superior might be able to help the character out, on the side. It'd be harder, but if the reward would be more valuable from her perspective, and she might be able to work off her own attunement (assuming she had the attunement). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? > >Well, I'd point out that the distinction can become insignificant at > >the game level. At least one superior (Yves) can add the resonance > >and dissonance conditions of a choir to anybody who has his highest > >Distinction (the name escapes me). So what's the difference between > >an UberSaint of Yves with the Elohim resonance, and a powerful Elohim > >of Yves? > > The Line Editor bares her Djinn fangs at the author who tried it for > publication? Eep! I wasn't trying for publication, just making a point that was heavily entrenched in canon... > I'll think on it. (One thing is that they don't have Hearts -- and > probably *couldn't* take dissonance. They might take Body hits or > Soul hits instead. Interesting notion...) Hmmm - interesting indeed. Not the way I would have done it, but then I'm not a canon-hound anyway. [They don't have Hearts? Oh, right - naturally inclined toward the Upper Heavens. Okay.] Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:31:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? > > A related question(s): Any ideas on what would happen to a vessel > > using angel of Yves that took the Kyrio resonance? Would they loose > > the vessel? Would they not have as many forces available for use (as > > per Kyrio of War)? And would they kept the vessel, would they get > > dissonance if it got frotzed? > > You lose it. The changed celestial nature of > the being is no longer able to support an 'owned' vessel. > (Though some GMs might want to keep the potential of > the vessel around in case the celestial lost the > attunement somehow... either way you can't USE a > bought vessel while you have the resonance/attunement.) Can vessels be transeferred between Celestials? Because having a valuable vessel (ie - one with a good Role) would be a hinderance to advancement otherwise... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:39:01 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Review: "Low Estate," by Sixteen Horsepower > Synchronicity is a funny thing. I had just decided to set my In > Nomine campaign in North Carolina, when I ran across "Low Estate" by > Sixteen Horsepower. > > If the Old Testament had happened in the Appalachian mountains and > the preacher of Ecclesiastes had a second career as a rock singer, > he might have made this CD. Well, since precident has been set: Folks, go look at the self-titled album by Jars of Clay, while your at it. Very good Christian rock - they had a single on the radio a few years ago called "Flood", in case any of you remember. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "But if I can't swim after fourty days, And my mind is crushed by the crashing waves, Lift me up so high that I cannot fall, Lift me over." - Jars of Clay, "Flood" Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #600 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.