From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 8 14:33:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20257 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:33:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA14315 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:57:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:57:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199810081857.NAA14315@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #970 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 970 In this digest: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness - Lunches Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny, perhaps? IN> The Nature of Lilith IN> Shedites of the Game IN> Soldiers/Undead Re: IN> Shedites of the Game Re: IN> Shedites of the Game Re: IN> Shedites of the Game Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #965 IN> Freewill, Damnation Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation IN> Realistic vs. cinematic IN> A couple of questions Re: IN> A couple of questions Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny, perhaps? Re: IN> Realistic vs. cinematic Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny Re: IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny Re: IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Re: IN> More Lilim craziness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:03:45 EDT From: Pleissez@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness - Lunches In a message dated 98-10-07 12:38:44 EDT, you write: << I considered that, but eating out isn't exactly cost-effective. If the person Needed a meal, they could go to a store and pick up stuff fairly cheap. Now, if the Need was "eat at a *real* restaurant for a change", then that might work out. And buying someone dinner at a really fancy four-star place would certainly count, if that's what the Need was. But then, most people would be a bit suspicious of the motives of someone who just came up to them on the street and said, "How would you like a nice dinner at Antonio's -- I'm buying?" Certainly *I'd* be suspicious. TANSTAAFL.... ---Walter >> Reminds me of something a friend of mine once said - If someone offers to make your dearest wish come true, be very careful what you say next, because if they can do /that/ then your worst nightmare isn't far off either. Just goes to show that knowing a need or 3 can be a dangerous thing... Trey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 01:34:47 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces In article <361BC3DA.7A72@mc.com>, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > You know, what gets me is that I don't see any contradictions > > between the story and the writeup... Am I really just that > > convoluted?) > I don't see any contradiction either. But there have been > several threads on the list in which Lilith showed up as > a much paler shade of grey. I'm not sure this even contradicts most of them, if you think about it for a bit! Brrr. It's a dark strand all right, but don't make the mistake of thinking of Lilith as a simple creature. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 23:10:51 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny, perhaps? >>>My own impression is that, in certain times and places, you could find Christian communities that would dismiss either extramarital sex or violence as trivial sins, if committed by the the right people in the right circumstances.<<< Actually, at certain times and places you could find Christian communities that would dismiss anything from mass gang rape to genocide, if committed in the right circumstances (the right circumstances usually meaning "We're good Christians and they're not"). Nowadays, most Christians have a much more humanitarian bent, but then so does most of the world. I don't think one can really argue that historically, Novalis represents Christianity any better than Laurence or Dominic or Asmodeus, for that matter....it just depends on which time and place you're looking at. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 23:10:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Nature of Lilith >>>(You know, what gets me is that I don't see any contradictions between the story and the writeup... Am I really just that convoluted?)<<< Lilith has gotten a lot of whitewashing in recent supplements. Her original writeup in the rulebook left enough ambiguity that one could present her as being evil and selfish and nasty, or honorable and somewhat sympathetic with just a hint of a mean streak, whichever one prefers. Since then, though, almost everything published referring to Lilith and her actions and her personality has leaned heavily away from suggesting she'd ever do anything truly evil, with all the "bad" things she's done being blamed entirely on the fact that she simply has to maintain a certain quota to stay in Hell's good graces. There's been the peristent suggestion that she's really basically a nice person with a stubborn streak, and that in all probability, she's going to Redeem sometime between now and Armageddon. Frankly, I agree wholeheartedly with an earlier comment on this list, that Lilith's extended writeup in FotM, while well-written and useful in fleshing her out, simply reeked of fanboy adulation. "Lilith is soooooo cool," indeed. The emphasis has been on her "coolness" factor, and she's emerged as a sort of rebellious, pro-independence and free will, pseudo-feminist icon. Naturally, those who empathize with that point of view (which includes a substantial portion of gamers, myself included) will thus have a hard time really seeing the potential for evil in someone that seems to represent a lot of ideals that they themselves subscribe to....especially when contrasted with some of the less sympathetic Archangels. So everyone tends to see Lilith as Hell's "good guy." Which is fine, _if_ you want to play her that way. But Lilith is a mythic figure with a lot of potential for nastiness, and that's being ignored and almost shunted out of any possible representation in canon. I see Lilith as the ultimate anarchist. And a lot of people nowadays (especially gamers) tend to think anarchy is a "cool" individualist thing to be into. But anarchy has a flip side to the "pro-individual, anti-government and big business" image. It's also pro-*destruction* of government and big business, using whatever (violent) means it takes, and the ultimate outcome of an anarchist society would be one where everyone is on their own, cannot expect any help they can't pay for, and where might would make right. That's what I see as Lilith's ultimate objective, and while a few people might also like that kind of set-up, the vast majority would not. My version of Lilith has all the stylish sophistication and "cool" factor that the mainstream Lilith does....but underneath the purring and cooing, she's a cold-hearted bitch who wouldn't hesitate to snuff a baby's life out if she'd gain a few free Forces in the bargain. She keeps her word only when it suits her to do so, or when she's forced to....sure, she cultivates the _reputation_ of being honorable to a fault and a fair if hard bargainer - -- that makes people more willing to deal with her. But she does not HAVE to keep all her promises, only those that are part of a "contract," and even there, she'll screw you by honoring the most tenuous letter of the bargain rather than its spirit, if it benefits her to do so and she can get away with it. She's vain and selfish and always looking out for her own best interests, and she does _not_ feel sorry for anyone else. She doesn't do anything out of kindness or sympathy -- she has none, except for herself. That's my own personal version, not the canonical one. But the canonical Lilith in In Nomine could fit my version as well as the fluffier version. The Lilith that's been appearing ever since is increasingly imcompatible with any campaign where the GM _doesn't_ want to make Lilith an anti-hero. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 23:48:28 CDT From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Shedites of the Game >> Um, what does a Shedite of Asmodeus do with his free 12 Cp's - he has no >> role being a Shedite, can he spend them on somethng else, free servitor >> attunement instead. (Or money back if not completely satisfied!) > >His Servitor attunement is that he can live in a host for DAYS without >corrupting them! For the average Shedite, that means they can slide >between two hosts at their total convenience, never risking dissonance or >exposing themselves. I think we need errata making it clear (unless I'm >wrong) that the SoA attunement is an *exception* to the general >attunement. Or we could look at p. 59 of the Infernal Player's Guide, which says, "Asmodeus' Shedim do not get extra points for a Role." This solves the whole question rather nicely, in my opinion. The IPG also discusses how Shedim can *ooze* from one host to the next with physical contact, and this makes no Symphonic disturbance. I don't know about everyone else, but that creeps me out to no end. - -- Michael "I know the old saw about 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'... but I believe you can hold the horse's head underwater and make him think about it for a while." -- Dr. Jane Walters, my high school principal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 23:48:30 CDT From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Soldiers/Undead >> Hmm... this strikes me a cannonically false. I believe a Class 6 >> servant (as per main rulebook, pg.45) is "an experienced solider or undead >> with 7 forces". Hence for 3 character points you can have one as a level >> 1 servant... surely if a 7 force mortal were THAT rare, it wouldn't be so >> easy to aquire one... > > I think you are relying upon a faulty reading of that phrase. It should be >interpreted as a servant who is *either* "an experienced Soldier" or an >"Undead with 7 Forces", *not* "an experienced Soldier or Undead, both of which >are 7 Forces NPCs". Compare this to the option of the 5 Force mortal with >extra character points for skills and the implication of "experienced" in >reference to the Soldier balances nicely against that 7 Force Undead. After >all, Undead are much more likely to have 7 Forces than even an "experienced >Soldier". The wording in the text says, "(Class) 6 -- An experienced Soldier or Undead, with 7 Forces." The original reading sounds pretty spot-on to me, and in my games, they haven't been particularly unbalancing. Yes, I'd let a player have the option of taking a 6-Force Soldier with 20 points of extra skills/status/stuff, but it would only be at their request. Also, I would make sure to design the NPC *myself* rather than let the player try to create a combat-monster sidekick... but that strikes me as just good sense for *any* GM. Let the player say, "I'd like this NPC to be a Presbyterian policeman with a side interest in computers and some first aid training", and then you take it from there. Why do you say that Undead are more likely to get 7 Forces than Soldiers? After all, they *both* start out with only 6 Forces, and they can both improve their characteristics (and from this, their Forces) with experience... Do Soldiers tend to get killed off *that* much faster than Undead of comparable power levels in your games? It seems reasonable to me that there ought to be a lot more Soldiers than Mummies anyway, since Heaven doesn't *make* Mummies, and not all Princes would *want* to create Undead instead of Soldiers. You could say that Saints make up some of the difference in the Heavenly numbers, but surely there aren't *that* many of them. If there are many more Soldiers, surely *some* will survive long enough to pick up a 7th Force, especially if they do it by just raising their stats through experience. - -- Michael "I know the old saw about 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'... but I believe you can hold the horse's head underwater and make him think about it for a while." -- Dr. Jane Walters, my high school principal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:19:42 -0700 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Shedites of the Game >The IPG also discusses how Shedim can *ooze* from one host to the next with >physical contact, and this makes no Symphonic disturbance. I don't know >about everyone else, but that creeps me out to no end. Oh yes. Wasn't there at least one movie about this recently? I remember the trailers, but not the title. - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:49:55 -0700 From: Stephen Gingell Subject: Re: IN> Shedites of the Game Kelly St.Clair wrote: > > >The IPG also discusses how Shedim can *ooze* from one host to the next with > >physical contact, and this makes no Symphonic disturbance. I don't know > >about everyone else, but that creeps me out to no end. > > Oh yes. Wasn't there at least one movie about this recently? I remember > the trailers, but not the title. > "Fallen", with Denzel Washington, and some other guy I don't remember. Haven't seen it but I've heard some good things about it... - -Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:29:41 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Shedites of the Game On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Stephen Gingell wrote: > Kelly St.Clair wrote: > > > > >The IPG also discusses how Shedim can *ooze* from one host to the next with > > >physical contact, and this makes no Symphonic disturbance. I don't know > > >about everyone else, but that creeps me out to no end. > > > > Oh yes. Wasn't there at least one movie about this recently? I remember > > the trailers, but not the title. > > > > "Fallen", with Denzel Washington, and some other guy I don't remember. > Haven't seen it but I've heard some good things about it... > > -Stephen > Seen it - and it is the best film I've seen def this year and pretty much ever. Hyberbole alert - but really a must see for any In Nomine fan for a start - and most other people should see it too. Although I do wish my flatmate would stop singing that tune :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:58:32 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #965 On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 06:59:04PM +0100, CA Smith wrote: > >Also, I think in general that the amount of points given to starting > >characters is too low, and should be upped by 50% at least, for any > >character who has had significant life experience (100 years or so) in > >Earth or Hell. I don't think giving Discord is a solution, because I don't > >see why I should have to make a character close to Falling in order to > >give them basic competence. > What level of competance is this compared to, I believe I posted elsewhere an instance of a character who needs more skills in a lot of areas to fit her character concept. if I remember correctly > you're bog standard human has -5- forces and thus -20- points generally > making them gibbering piles of goo in comparisson I said starting characters, making no differentiation between humans and Celestials in that regard. I reckon humans should get their skill points up too. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:30:23 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Freewill, Damnation It's always been left a bit fuzzy as to what the criteria are for a mortal to end up in Hell and I'm curious as to how other people see this. Could someone be damned as a result of something they were forced to do by a Shedite or a Lilim? (Could be any other sort of demon too, but those are the ones who can force someone to do something against their will that they would never have done otherwise). I'm thinking that this would indeed be the default, which is one of the reasons that the angels of final judgement need to be fairly alert to people who were forced into evil but still retain a fair amount of good. (OTOH, I can't believe that anyone with even the faintest spark of good will be plucked out by those angels because if they were.. how many mortal souls would ever get to hell? ) jo - -- All for one, one for all, that is our device. -- Alexandre Dumas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:37:10 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin "Matthew D. Gandy" wrote: [snip] > Wim Wenders' > film, "Wings of Desire," [snip] > Although it is *very* dissimilar to In Nomine, [snip] Although the Menunim, Blandine's special Choir, are *direct* lifts from Wings of Desire (which is no bad thing, IMO). Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:37:43 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie Adorable, Impudite of the Media (yes there is a comma there) It's not her real name of course; not the original one anyway. She realised very quickly that she wasn't going to get anywhere in the media world if she carried on using the monicker of Fuzzbucket, with which she had been lumped as a mere familiar. It was obvious (to her) that Fuzz had star quality and it was just a matter of time before more Important People noticed and rewarded her accordingly; still she decided to speed this natural process by adopting a new name, persona and personal style which involved cycling quickly through glam, goth and punk before settling on the old favourite of faux sophistication, glitter-lycra and very low-cut tops -- thus 'Adorable' was born. The crux of Adorable's existence is that everyone must adore her -- the clue being in the name. She will stop at nothing to make this true, including natural Impudite charm, bitching behind people's backs and playing sweet power games with as many other mortals and demons who are involved in the media as she can, just to prove how cute she is. Finally, her big break. She had been given the vessel of a fresh young starlet, new out of drama school, and allowed to make her way onto the stage (or screen if you prefer) to begin a new and glittering career. She claims to have been deliberately sabotaged but here she is, 25 years later, forced to keep aging the vessel and still stuck with bit parts. She has many many contacts within the profession and gets invited to all of the best parties, where she is very kissy with the Important People and sits around exchanging false sympathy for those who have been unlucky with the reviews lately. She is very good at faking a deep and appreciative knowledge of literature, film and the arts, but only in order to wittily criticise someone else's work -- because it really wouldn't do for anyone else to be more beloved than Adorable! She is a sociable creature, almost never found without a crowd of similarly insincere admirers. If a genuine artist, or agent of creation has been reduced to depression or shattered by a string of bad reviews, Adorable is bound to be at the crux of it -- playing butterfly in her glitzy parties and plotting behind the smiles to destroy anyone who might dim her 'glory' by comparison, and who will not pay court and play her little games. She is a fixer, and anyone who doesn't fall into line is likely to get 'fixed. RP Notes: Address everyone as 'darling' and laugh brightly at any deep comments that you don't understand.Save the focus of your attention for anyone with influence, and attach yourself to them like a clam. Greet any rivals happily and express sincere admiration for them -- you can bitch about them afterwards. Avoid fighting angels (you might break a nail and that would be tragic). Make sure your circle of admirers know who is in your bad books so that they can all go and bitch about them as well. - -- (I think it'll be the butler next) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 06:50:24 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation Hart, Joanna wrote: > It's always been left a bit fuzzy as to what the criteria are for a mortal > to end up in Hell and I'm curious as to how other people see this. Could > someone be damned as a result of something they were forced to do by a > Shedite or a Lilim? (Could be any other sort of demon too, but those are the > ones who can force someone to do something against their will that they > would never have done otherwise). I believe I remember reading somewhere that a Shedite's actions, at least, do not directly cause damnation, but that many possessees mistake them for thwir own actions. It is the things they do after the possession ends to justify these actions or further acting upon the desires unleashed that leads to damnation. It is entirely possible that I am remembering this from an entirely non-IN source that talked about possession in general, so I'm not even going to bother trying to look it up, but it has a good feel to it. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 00:11:43 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Realistic vs. cinematic Guy M. Dumas wrote: > Do you not find it remotely non-cinematic that standard non-celestial combat > is virtually useless? Remember that you don't have to start with angels and > demons...you can start with regular humans and in that case the combat > system is...less than adequate, whereas, if you do start with angels and > devils, is simply not up to snuff. Given my and particularly my players' > considerable gaming experience including writers of game supplements etc., > we have all concluded that the combat falls a little short...EVEN...for a > cinematic game! In some ways, the IN combat system becomes a bit more realistic when you use standard 5-force humans, though it doesn't have that feel. In all honesty, you just _shouldn't_ hit very often. Take World War II: the ratio of bullets fired to casualties caused by them was roughly 70,000 to 1. More powerful munitions did better by between one and two orders of magnitude (atomic bombs excepted, of course), but that still isn't as impressive as you might think. It doesn't necessarily happen for the right reasons, though. I've never seen role-players who hug cover and use blind suppressing fire (which only does what it's supposed to if the enemy is _also_ keeping his head down) like folks do in real life. I'd like the feel of a system that produced this, except that the combats would take forever. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 06:57:21 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> A couple of questions 1) Is the list of Habbalite emotional effects in the core rulebook all there is, or are they merely examples of what Habbalah can do? I'd lean towards the latter and say that they can inflict a wide range of emotions, except that the attunement for Habbalah of Greed is a "special effect". 2) Does a celestial in a vessel suffer from physical exhaustion due to exertion? They don't need to sleep, and the FAQ says that they do not get tired, but it is unclear whether this means that they have no limit to endurance. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:16:27 -0300 From: Felipe Pereira Subject: Re: IN> A couple of questions At 06:57 AM 10/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >1) Is the list of Habbalite emotional effects in the core rulebook all >there is, or are they merely examples of what Habbalah can do? I'd lean >towards the latter and say that they can inflict a wide range of >emotions, except that the attunement for Habbalah of Greed is a "special >effect". OK, if you read the page 147 again you will see. "GMs and players are welcome to craft their own emotional effects." By the way, does anyone have a new emotional effect??? >2) Does a celestial in a vessel suffer from physical exhaustion due to >exertion? They don't need to sleep, and the FAQ says that they do not >get tired, but it is unclear whether this means that they have no limit >to endurance. I don't think they do. Felipe W. Pereira a.k.a. Azrael fwp@globalsite.com.br ICQ number: 2192991 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:31:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Rene Kragh Pedersen wrote: Hi, thanks for responding. > I am in a campaign set here in Denmark. Our characters roam around the > local area most of the time, although we _have_ been outside of Denmark > on more than one occasion (Norway, Tyrkey, Hong Kong springs to mind). > It has certain advantages, the main one being that everyone is _very_ > familiar with the setting. This sounds interesting. familiarity is one of the reasons why I picked Berlin. However, I didnt want my players to be too familiar with the place either, so I didnt set it in Norway. Also,I wanted a larger city where more stuff can happen. Just out of curiousity: where in Norway did your group go? > I'm sure I had something more to say ... uhm ... orwell, take this for > now :-) Thanks for the ideas! One more thing. You dont find heavily armed people around in Denmark. Not all the time anyway? Yet, violence is fun. How do you find shoot-outs? Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:48:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: Hello Walter. > The original French game may have some useful stuff on Europe, if you > know the language. So far, there aren't any non-US locations really > detailed in the SJGames books, but some may be forthcoming, eventually. > The Tethers book (currently just ended playtest) does have a number of > European Tethers listed, including the main angelic one at Notre Dame. Do you know when this will be out? How common are Tethers anyway? Do the Infernals have any major tethers? Transylvania perhaps? Well, I guess most of these things will be revealed in the upcoming product, still it would be nice to know how many tethers it would be reasonable to find in..say Berlin. Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:40:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny, perhaps? David Edelstein wrote: > Actually, at certain times and places you could find Christian > communities that would dismiss anything from mass gang rape to > genocide, if committed in the right circumstances [...]. > > Nowadays, most Christians have a much more humanitarian bent, > but then so does most of the world. I don't think one can really > argue that historically, Novalis represents Christianity any > better than Laurence or Dominic or Asmodeus, for that matter.... I grant the point about actual Christian behavior. There is a separate argument possible about which AA best exemplifies ideal Christian behavior. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:42:50 -0400 From: "Guy M. Dumas" Subject: Re: IN> Realistic vs. cinematic J. Michael Neal wrote: In some ways, the IN combat system becomes a bit more realistic when you >use >standard 5-force humans, though it doesn't have that feel. In all >honesty, you >just _shouldn't_ hit very often. Take World War II: the ratio of >bullets fired >to casualties caused by them was roughly 70,000 to 1. More powerful >munitions >did better by between one and two orders of magnitude (atomic bombs >excepted, of >course), but that still isn't as impressive as you might think. It >doesn't >necessarily happen for the right reasons, though. I've never seen >role-players >who hug cover and use blind suppressing fire (which only does what it's >supposed >to if the enemy is _also_ keeping his head down) like folks do in real >life. >I'd like the feel of a system that produced this, except that the >combats would >take forever. I will be sitting down this weekend and incorporating some of the aspects of several of the games my players and I have played over the years. I see the combat system taking a dramatic turn towards Torg, with a touch of DC heroes. Most of the other systems that are precursors to In Nomine, like Immortals, Nephalum, and Mage are rehashed combat so I think they'll be useless. Hopefully I'll be able to count on some of you on the mailing list (sceptics included) to help me out with constructive criticism! Have something to you all soon! Guy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:18:25 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny Earl wrote: >There is a >separate argument possible about which AA best exemplifies >ideal Christian behavior. I can't really comment on ideal Christian behaviour but I've always portrayed Laurence Arthurian-style, as the chivalric ideal (ie. nominally the perfect Christian knight). jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:03:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie "Adorable" is nicely done. She probably ages her vessel as slowly as she dares, and a few observant people cattily surmise she must be the plastic surgery industry's favorite poster child. ("I know she just looks like a well-reupholstered fifty, but I *swear* I once saw her as an extra in a silent movie.") Was she supposed to corrupt public morals as a big media star and failed at it, or is she just supposed to undercut theatrical creativity whenever possible -- a job she's good at but doesn't find as rewarding as the big-star role she's been denied? > Save the focus of your attention for anyone with influence > and attach yourself to them like a clam. I think you meant limpet. Clams aren't particularly attachable. Oysters or mussels would do, but limpets are proverbially adhesive. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:56:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation Hart, Joanna wrote: > It's always been left a bit fuzzy as to what the criteria are for > a mortal to end up in Hell and I'm curious as to how other people > see this. This is one of those crucial religious issues that should probably be relegated to Canon Doubt and Uncertainty, I think. If I were GMing and IN game, I would have the "particular judgement" at the moment of death usually be a Divine Intervention. God confronts the soul and, in the words of C. S. Lewis, we discover if that soul is the sort of person who says "Thy will be done," or the sort to whom God says "*Thy* will be done" and abandons to its own devices. (For IN, there is also the middle ground of reincarnation, wherein God decides the soul isn't done yet.) Abandonned souls may unravel and dissipate, or they may naturally gravitate to Hellmouth, or they may get hunted and chivvied there by demons. Individual cases vary. Ghosts are typically souls destined for reincarnation, damnation, or dissipation, who haven't got there yet. The two angels posted at Hellmouth principally weed out reincarnants who took a wrong turn, or the rarer blessed soul who got caught by demons who didn't think it WAS blessed (or, more foolishly, thought they could smuggle it past the guards). That's how *I'd* do it, anyway. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 11:33:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A cute and fuzzy bunny Hart, Joanna wrote: > I can't really comment on ideal Christian behaviour but I've always > portrayed Laurence Arthurian-style, as the chivalric ideal (ie. > nominally the perfect Christian knight). That would be one good way of doing him, analogous to the terrifying-but-totally-fair Dominic. Turn the brightness knob down a little and you introduce elements of self-righteous, persecuting bastard into both of them. With the brightness turned up high enough, ANY Archangel becomes compatible with ANY of the major monotheistic religions, I suspect. Lauence as the ideal chivalric knight is one Christian ideal, but I think that mercy is still more central to both Novalis and Christian ethics generally than it is to Laurence. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:54:07 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] a theatrical luvvie >Was she supposed to corrupt public morals as a big media star >and failed at it, or is she just supposed to undercut theatrical >creativity whenever possible -- a job she's good at but doesn't >find as rewarding as the big-star role she's been denied? My guess is that she has a nice balseraph agent somewhere who stokes her ego, and has always known that her real purpose was to tighten up the stranglehold which the media has on stage and screen, draw as many other actors/ directors/ producers as possible into her web of bitchiness, jealousy and other anti-creative exploits, and handle influence in that sphere for when the forces of hell need it -- it just never told her. So she was right about her 'career' having been sabotaged. She might also be a fall-demon, set up to draw any angelic attention away from some more behind-the-scenes media plotting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:29:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > Do you know when this will be out? How common are Tethers anyway? > Do the Infernals have any major tethers? Transylvania perhaps? > Well, I guess most of these things will be revealed in the upcoming > product, still it would be nice to know how many tethers it would be > reasonable to find in..say Berlin. I think this is something you'll have to decide for yourself. IMO, the best way is to decide how many Tethers you want, independent of the size of the area the characters will be moving around in. For example, I started doing a game in Sweden (we only played one session, for various reasons) where I had placed about ten or so Tethers at various places in Sweden, since that felt like a suitable number for the background. I've also thought about setting a campaign here in Uppsala, which would have either one Tether (coinciding with one in the previous example), or about half a dozen - I could easily come up with that many, or perhaps more, if I wanted them. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 13:49 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Freewill, Damnation >It's always been left a bit fuzzy as to what the criteria are for a mortal >to end up in Hell and I'm curious as to how other people see this. I think the canon answer (from the core book) is that people who reach their Fate go to Hell, and people who reach their Destiny go to Heaven. (For those who do both, it's probably the latest one that counts....) Those who reach neither are either recycled or dissipated. > Could >someone be damned as a result of something they were forced to do by a >Shedite or a Lilim? (Could be any other sort of demon too, but those are the >ones who can force someone to do something against their will that they >would never have done otherwise). I would say no. We've got the notion in our campaign (and I think this is creeping into canon) that neither Fate nor Destiny can be forced. Humans *have* to choose freely between the two, or else it doesn't count. Now, they can be influenced, or tricked, but the Symphony rebels against outright force, either way. (This explains why the angels of Destiny are normally among the most subtle.) I think this concept actually provides the most plot potential, since angels and demons must be careful not to interfere *too* much or too directly, or they wind up defeating themselves. Thus, subtle and convoluted plots are the most likely to be successful. You don't push the politician to his Fate by getting the Shedite to possess him -- you have the Shedite possess his *wife*, and *lead* him there. >I'm thinking that this would indeed be the default, which is one of the >reasons that the angels of final judgement need to be fairly alert to people >who were forced into evil but still retain a fair amount of good. They may just be there as a contingency gesture -- the actual process by which humans are sorted out to Heaven, Hell, and reincarnation may be totally opaque to the Superiors. The Archangels may just be hedging their bets that whatever mechanism is there actually works right all the time. After all, God tend to let things run on their own, for the most part -- there's no telling if someone might be able to pervert the process somehow. (And there are some suggestions for future canon that imply that this *can* happen.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:53:50 -0500 From: Don.Durham@smsc.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin Have you looked at Berlin by Night (VtM, I think)? It might give a good feel for the dark side. Cousin Don CousinDon@innocent.com "If you can't beat 'em... Arrange to have them beaten" George Carlin, _Brain Droppings_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 14:18 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Berlin >Do you know when this will be out? There's no offical release date on it. I'd guess January or February, since the official releases are already listed for up through December. It just finished playtest and went into layout, which usually means about 2-3 months before it will be in stores. > How common are Tethers anyway? The canon answer is: up to the GM. Most major cities have at least one. But they can form anywhere the right conditions exist. In my own Boston campaign, I have about a half-dozen Tethers of each side in the immediate area of the city. >Do the Infernals have any major tethers? You mean like Notre Dame? No, I don't think so -- they'd have to be able to cooperate better to have a shared Tether like that. But there are certainly "major" Tethers for various Princes. The book contains a selected list, by Superior, of Tethers for each. (The list is not intended to be exhaustive, to give the GM scope to add his own.) > Transylvania perhaps? I don't think it's much more Tether-prone than anywhere else, actually. Tether locations tend to be dictated by Words -- Transylvania might be a good place for a Nightmares Tether, for example. > still it would be nice to know how many tethers it would be >reasonable to find in..say Berlin. Using the Tether frequency from my own campaign, Berlin's population (apparently roughly 3.5-4M), and the fact that it's a major world capital, I'd say 10-20, maybe more, in the city and environs, split between the two sides. The only offical Berlin Tether I can remember offhand is Lilith's Tether at the remains of the Berlin Wall. There may be others that I don't remember. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:45:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness At 1:47 PM -0400 10/7/98, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> >> > Beth, can you write up the definite Geas/Hook guide >> >and I'll just link it off of the FAQ? Matters like this >> >shouldn't be harder than pointing at the document and saying >> >'read'. =) >> >> [Elizabeth, reading over my shoulder, grumbles, "Most of it's *in* >> FotM."] > > Heh. All that stuff, and more examples is kinda >what I was getting at. Things that would be too wordy >to actually put in a supplement, yet would help out >people that have a hard time getting a handle on the >whole process. Let me get the FotM stuff as an exerpt, and then whatever it doesn't cover (like the concept that you can't hook someone if he's hired you as his faceless minion to do the job already), I'll write up. (Of course, I'll have to have some people suggesting what it doesn't cover...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #970 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.