From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Oct 30 16:10:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25716 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:10:06 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12153 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:53:46 -0600 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:53:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199810302153.PAA12153@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #999 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 999 In this digest: Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Re: IN> Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> IN- disease question IN> RE: IN- symphony question Re: IN> IN- disease question Re: IN> symphony question IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> Renegades IN> Re: IN- Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) Re: IN> Renegades IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- [Fiction] Garden of Fire Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Re: IN> Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) Re: IN> In Nomine Question Re: IN> Renegades IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> another symphony question Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Re: IN- Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) IN> Diving Re: IN> Diving Re: IN> Diving Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Renegades Re: IN> Diving ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:37:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Steve Marco wrote: > What would you guys do if one of your player characters asked Gabriel > out on a date? Talk about a hot date... Assuming the PC was not out of favor with Gabriel, I guess I would either have her laugh maniacally, gliding swiftly into sobs (as if he had somehow touched on a very sore point) and vanish, or have her say "Sure!" brightly, and then there will be a hot time in the old town tonight. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 13:58 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates-careless children? >The impression I got from the Kyrio write-up in the main book was >that human hosts were usually either very transitory -- minutes or >seconds of occupation -- or volunteers, servitors of the Kyrio in >question. Randomly robbing human hosts of large chunks of time >mighgt steer dangerously near the Kyrio dissonance condition of >harming the host; yeah, maybe "harming" just means physical harm, >but the attitude that dumps a lost weekend on an innocent bystander >still looks headed for dissonance. This is the way I've been interpreting things, but as far as I know, it's not canon. Other than the general requirement of "not harming the host" that Kyrios have to abide by.... Exactly what that means has to be a GM call, but, as with all dissonance conditions, I (as a GM) will warn people when they're straying too close to getting hit with dissonance. It's not something you do by accident, in general.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:02:44 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions Steve Marco wrote: > What would you guys do if one of your player characters asked Gabriel > out on a date? I dunno about dating, but one of my players asked if his character could be a female Malakite and one of Gabriel's former lovers (after her self-imposed exile from Heaven began). I said no, at first (because I was concerned about the PC's connection to Gabriel as being too serious for a PC to have as part of their background, not the homosexual angle). I recanted later when I realized it made the character much more interesting and tied into other things I was doing with the story. So she had once been a Malakite of Fire, was discarded like an old toy by Gabriel, became Outcast and finally got into Zadkiel's good graces. All this, for a one-shot. :) - --Matthew D. "Demiurge" Schweitzer-Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 14:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Renegades >Do Renegades keep attunements and distindtions, or are they gone? I'm pretty sure this is covered in more detail in the IPG, but as I recall, they lose nothing but Rites and the ability to return to their Heart in Hell (and gain the attention of the Game and their Superior...). They *do* lose all such stuff if they redeem, though. The special powers of distinctions are kept, but the *social* effect of them is lost -- if you're Renegade, you can no longer command other demons under you. (Well, you can try, but if they know you're rogue, they'll probably try to score points with the Boss by calling him.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:49:09 -0600 From: "Mischa Krilov" Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial At 09:48 AM 10/19/98 +0100, Kevin Walsh wrote: >I think War as a Word is better suited for an Ofanite or an Elohite. After >all, deception is the basis of warfare, and you don't want someone who'll >be tied down by niggly little scruples. Hmm. All the more reason why you don't want a Malakite, I think. Me. __________________________________________________________________ "Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." -R. W. Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 14:19 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions >What would you guys do if one of your player characters asked Gabriel >out on a date? She's liable to do just about *anything*, from frying the asker on the spot, to becoming wildly passionate right there. If the asker was sincere (and not a *bit* cruel!), the latter is a bit more likely. Someone on testosterone overload on seeing her (not unlikely if she's trying to be inobvious... for her), is probably asking for a 3rd-degree brush-off. People in between (if there are any -- Gabriel's not the sort of person to inspire *mild* feelings), I'd make a reaction roll for her to see, and let the general result and check digit guide the action. Bad CD=6, he's toast, good CD=6, he's going to remember this for a *long* time.... CD=1, she either scowls darkly or smiles brilliantly, says something totally non sequitur, and goes elsewhere. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:40:13 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Renegades Walter Milliken wrote: > I'm pretty sure this is covered in more detail in the IPG, but as I > recall, they lose nothing but Rites and the ability to return to their > Heart in Hell (and gain the attention of the Game and their > Superior...). They *do* lose all such stuff if they redeem, though. > The special powers of distinctions are kept, but the *social* effect of > them is lost -- if you're Renegade, you can no longer command other > demons under you. (Well, you can try, but if they know you're rogue, > they'll probably try to score points with the Boss by calling him.) I'm not sure I can condone this, if it's canon; if a demon goes Renegade, why would his superior keep giving him _anything_? Attunements and Distinctions are generally granted by the Demon Prince in question, if I remember correctly, so a Renegade - by definition denying both his nature and his Prince - would lose pretty much everything in the way of Rites, Attunements, and Distinctions. After all, if you're Distinguished, the Prince is going to be keeping at least a bit of his eye on you. Additionally, if I were feeling _really_ mean, I'd take their Band Resonance away, too - after all, if they were discordant enough to go Renegade, then they're probably losing their contact with Hell, too. So, each day at sundown, I'd subtract one from the target number for their Resonance roll, until nothing short of an Intervention would let them do it. IMW, Hell isn't kind to Renegades. :) - -EDG Mercurian of Jean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:01:28 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Renegades On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Perestroika wrote: > I'm not sure I can condone this, if it's canon; if a demon goes > Renegade, why would his superior keep giving him _anything_? A Superior bestows an Attunement or Distinction *once*, whereupon it continues to function without assistance from the Superior. Rites, on the other hand, require the Superior's involvement. As evidence I offer the fact that Attunements and Distinctions continue to function if a Superior dies, while Rites cease to function. > Additionally, if I were feeling _really_ mean, I'd take their Band > Resonance away, too - after all, if they were discordant enough to go > Renegade, then they're probably losing their contact with Hell, too. > So, each day at sundown, I'd subtract one from the target number for > their Resonance roll, until nothing short of an Intervention would let > them do it. Whyever would leaving Hell be abandoning one's demonic nature? The first demons rebelled against their home, after all.... Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:01:04 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> IN- disease question At 1:09 AM -0500 10/30/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Can angels contract rabies? I've been searching for canon on this >issue... So far as I can tell, only Demons can get rabies. I'm not >sure where I read that, but I'm pretty sure I did. Might have been in >The Marches... Last I checked, the official word was that Angels and Demons don't suffer the symptoms of diseases. They can carry the diseases, and infect others, but the typical symptoms won't manifest at all, unless they're under the effect of a special Song or Attunement that grants them that vulnerability. So be careful if an Angel bites you, just because he's not foaming at the mouth doesn't mean he's not a carrier... >And if they can, if they take all the shots to kills it, does it disturb >the symphony? And if so, how fast does this disturbance travel? Do I >need to know current barometric readings? How does the weather affect >the "speed of disturbance"?? Well, no virus or bacterium, and darned few parasites are going to have the necessary 4 Body hits to produce even a +1 Disturbance. Below that, it gets lost in the background noise. Even if you managed to kill off the entire infection simultaneously with a Corp Heal, it's doubtful that there'd be even a teaspoonful of bacteria to destroy, and far, far less than you'd need to put out that +1. As for the Speed of the Disturbance, I'd say it's instantaneous. Violates causality all over the place, but what can you do? Relativity happens inside the Symphony. Disturbances are ripples on the actual surface. And since it's instantaneous, nothing slows it down, either. No bothering with Disturbance refraction or Doppler effects or whatnot. Much easier to work with. > - -- Nana Yaw Ofori nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:20:20 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> RE: IN- symphony question If a human dies directly >because of a celestial's actions, it causes a disturbance because the >actual sounds of the symphony diverge suddenly from where they were >supposed to go. Same thing with giving antibiotics to someone, but here >the GM sanity clause comes into play; you'd need a celestial stethescope >to hear THAT tiny a disturbance. > > >> >> _______________________________Matt._______________________________ >> [Angel of Weird Ideas, servant of Eli, kind of kicking it for now.] Okay!!! That's it!! NEW ARTIFACT!!!! Celstial stethescope!! The Celestial Stethescope gives it's user a hideous bonus to hear disturbances in symphony. The user's pereption rating is multiplied by the artifacts' rating +1. Thus a Perception of 4 with a Celestial Stethescope/2 has his Perception rating Tripled for purposes of detecting disturbances. This artifact, however, reduces the user's range for detecting disturbance inversely proportionally to it's rating. Thus a Celestial Stethescope/6 multiplies the celestial perception by a factor of seven, but reduces the range by a factor of seven as well. Cost: duhh... dribble dribble... someone with the Book of Relics better calculate this cost. - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:59:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN- disease question At 1:09 AM -0500 10/30/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Can angels contract rabies? I've been searching for canon on this >issue... So have I. All I found was some old playtest stuff that said that vessels had to deal with food and sleep and disease (IIRC, since I was only skimming it...). However, the Makatiel sidebar in the Dominic section of _Heaven & Hell_ implies quite the opposite. I figure that vessels don't get sick. Angelic or demonic. (Perry, are you okay? You seem a little... manic. Did you turn into an Ofanite?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:57:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> symphony question At 10:07 PM -0800 10/29/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: >Still, I see your point. Killing the soldier would be 10 plus his >corporeal forces, Errrrrata. Total Forces, not Corporal Forces. (I recently found it and sent it in. It may not be up yet.) So that's 10 + 6 (or more) Forces (if he's really a Soldier) or +5 if he's a normal human. +4 if he's a wimp. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:32:33 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? >> Humans are given rolls to avoid Kyriotate possession because it's >> instinctual, not because they consciously want to bar an angel from taking >> over. Many humans would be honoured to know an angel wanted to work through >> them. > >Well, I might be honored that an angel has a personal interest in me, but >I still wouldn't be keen on the idea of being ridden. I think any human >who knew that was happening would feel like he'd been raped. That is was >part of God's plan would probably make him feel worse: being violated by >a demon lets you blame someone who deserves it, but being violated by an >angel make the whole universe seem unfair. No offense meant, D-Man, but have *you* ever been raped? I haven't, but more than enough of my friends have and being unconscious (and in the Marches, I believe) is NOTHING like being raped. Violated, maybe, but I feel a bit violated every time I feel the stretch of my pacemaker beneath my skin, and I had a *choice* to do that. I would imagine that a Kyriotate might very well be one good terms with the people it rides regularly, and a good one might every well have a portion of itself in the dreamlands to keep its human friend company. Rape is a horrible, disgusting act of violence and should not be compared to being knocked unconscious, which is how I view the Kyriotate Resonance. >> By not keeping the human's consciousness in the vessel, however, the >> Kyriotate is protecting the host. It prevents the host witnessing literally >> diabolical things, it prevents feelings of split-personality and lack of >> control. In return for the use of his body, the human gets several extra >> days in (presumably) Blandine's side of the Marches- quite a nice holiday, >> I think. > >How'd you like it if you woke up one morning and found out there were >three days you couldn't remember? The Marches could be a nice place to >stay for the time, but the memory block combined with people asking about >your odd behavior would be pretty disturbing. However, it is better than >the alternative. The Kyrio just has to be careful with the memory block; >if he does it right, the host might just thing it was an uneventful week >that he can't recall any details about. Of course, the Kyrio can always sent part of itself to the dreamlands to relate what's happening to the human, explain the nature of heaven and hell and talk to the guy about what's really going on. :) And a rapist doesn't exactly leave his victim in no worse shape than when s/he he found him or her. You hit a chord, buddy. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea. Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 15:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Renegades >> I'm pretty sure this is covered in more detail in the IPG, but as I >> recall, they lose nothing but Rites and the ability to return to their >> Heart in Hell (and gain the attention of the Game and their >> Superior...). ... >I'm not sure I can condone this, if it's canon; if a demon goes >Renegade, why would his superior keep giving him _anything_? >Attunements and Distinctions are generally granted by the Demon Prince >in question, if I remember correctly, so a Renegade - by definition >denying both his nature and his Prince - would lose pretty much >everything in the way of Rites, Attunements, and Distinctions. The attunements are just that -- the Superior "tunes" the celestial to his Word, making those powers as part of their own nature. Distinctions are similar, except they also include a degree of status in the celestial hierarchy. They cannot be given or taken away without physical (or celestial) contact. Rites are different -- they're basically a way of drawing the Superior's attention, and he sends you some Essence. Or so the canon behind the canon now runs. >Additionally, if I were feeling _really_ mean, I'd take their Band >Resonance away, too - after all, if they were discordant enough to go >Renegade, then they're probably losing their contact with Hell, too. Their resonance is part of their most basic nature. Only redemption can change that enough to break their resonance. Note also that not all Renegades are necessarily discordant (though I think PC ones are technically required to be) -- someone is a Renegade if his Prince (or the Game) says he is. Some Renegades are just on the run for political reasons, and haven't really changed their nature at all -- they're just trying to survive their Prince's displeasure. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:47:37 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) everything that >exists has its own theme in the symphony. The symphony doesn't consist >just of what celestials do to it; all celestial powers, IMHO, work by >perceiving or modifying the existing symphony. Perception-based resonances >work my mentally focusing on a particular theme and analyzing it; >Will-based resonances work by forcing a particular part of the symphony >into a particular patterm. Songs work by temporarily adding a new theme >to >the symphony, which causes reality to behave a certain way. Mage mage mage mage Mage mage mage mage Mage mage mage mage Wonderful Mage, Wonderful Mage... Wonderful Mage, Wonderful mage... Tee hee... Go Balseraphim!!! "Okay, I roll to convince the Symphony that I have a gun." "Yes!!! sucess with a check of 6!!" "Fine, you have a gun, next?" - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:28:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Renegades At 10:11 PM -0900 10/29/98, Bruce A. Kleven wrote: >Do Renegades keep attunements and distindtions, or are they gone? If the Prince has any say in the matter, they're gone. Otherwise, the Renegade keeps 'em. Note that Princes think the best way to strip things from a Renegade involves rending him Force from Force. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:49:37 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- [Fiction] Garden of Fire >>Okay, cool, just one question, how on earth could a demon bring Soul >>death to angel so quickly??? > Diabolical intervention. Qouting Mariel's player: "I attack it >celestially. The check digit is six! Err, so are the other two..." > > Yours, > Yossi COOL. Heh heh heh... - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:23:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> funny game quotes and questions At 9:56 AM -0800 10/30/98, Steve Marco wrote: >What would you guys do if one of your player characters asked Gabriel >out on a date? Make a reaction roll. On a negative result, vessel-kill the arrogant thing. On a positive result... "The next day, you wake up in the hospital. You don't remember what happened, but you seem to be covered in third-degree burns." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:17:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) At 11:02 PM -0800 10/29/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Jayson Howell wrote: [...] >I hope I got my point across more clearly this time. Any other reactions >to my background noise hypothesis? Any comments or rule suggestions from >someone official (looking over the crowd trying to spot Ms. McCoy... :) I'm thinkin' about it. O;> - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:52:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Question At 10:20 PM -0500 10/29/98, Unverified@aol.com wrote: [Regarding Master of Divine Knowledgetion with Kyrio resonance] >What happens to the vessel of a non-Kyriotate who acquires the Kyriotate >multiplicity resonance? Is it treated like a "standard" Kyriotate vessel, >requiring some of the angel's forces all the time, or more like the stone >vessels of David's Kyriotates (vanishing when not in the vessel)? Go research (in the IPG, I believe, as well as the FAQ?) what happens to Balseraphs of Fate who get the Kyrio resonance as well. It's basically the same sort of thing... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:56:59 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Renegades Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > A Superior bestows an Attunement or Distinction *once*, whereupon it > continues to function without assistance from the Superior. Rites, on the > other hand, require the Superior's involvement. As evidence I offer the > fact that Attunements and Distinctions continue to function if a Superior > dies, while Rites cease to function. There's a distinction between leaving your Superior and having your Superior leave you. A Distinction is a matter of respect and honor; if your Superior dies or vanishes, you wouldn't lose that, because you haven't done anything wrong. Likewise, an Attunement is granted by your Superior, and if he dies, there's no reason for you to lose it. However, if _you_ abandon your _Superior_, that's a different story; especially when he's a Demon Prince. If you take off and go Renegade - for political reasons or Discordance - your Superior's not going to be happy, and your Attunements and Distinctions are going to vanish with the snap of his fingers. > Whyever would leaving Hell be abandoning one's demonic nature? The first > demons rebelled against their home, after all.... Yes, they did, and you don't see many demons with angelic attunements or resonances, do you? :) - -EDG Mercurian of Jean - -- "What doesn't kill you... should have been done properly." -Moogle on IRC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:58:11 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial >At 09:48 AM 10/19/98 +0100, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >>I think War as a Word is better suited for an Ofanite or an Elohite. After >>all, deception is the basis of warfare, and you don't want someone who'll >>be tied down by niggly little scruples. > >Hmm. All the more reason why you don't want a Malakite, I think. Actually, I find Michael quite fitting for the Word War, he is a Seraph as a such see War for what it is. Besides, (1) within the writeup of Seraph it describes them as being masters of misdirection and (2) we all know that Dominic doesn't say *anything* when questioned on things he doesn't want to answer, it tells me that not ALL seraphs serve Revelation ("Why yes, I HAVE to tell you everything I know") and since Michael doesn't get along with Yves (even though presumably Michael's Perception should be high enough for an autosuccess with a HUGE bonus on the CD yielding "The Truth") being a Seraph doesn't mean that you have to SHARE with the enemy. Michael is a seraph because he knows War for what it is, all the glory and all the terror, horror and evils. War is not a pretty thing, neither is Michael IMC... - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea. Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:28:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Renegades At 2:40 PM -0500 10/30/98, Perestroika wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: > >> I'm pretty sure this is covered in more detail in the IPG, but as I >> recall, they lose nothing but Rites and the ability to return to their >> Heart in Hell (and gain the attention of the Game and their >> Superior...). They *do* lose all such stuff if they redeem, though. >> The special powers of distinctions are kept, but the *social* effect of >> them is lost -- if you're Renegade, you can no longer command other >> demons under you. (Well, you can try, but if they know you're rogue, >> they'll probably try to score points with the Boss by calling him.) > >I'm not sure I can condone this, if it's canon; if a demon goes >Renegade, why would his superior keep giving him _anything_? The granting changes the demon's nature right-then-and-there. It's not a continuing thing. It's more like a tattoo -- it takes some effort to put it on, but once it's there, you have to grab the guy and skin it off him if you want to take it away again. Rites are a direct tap into the Superior's Essence reserves -- he can shut those off at the source. (Or *track you* by seeing where it goes...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:03:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> another symphony question At 1:22 AM -0500 10/30/98, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: >just one more question i need clarification on. Say a demon fired a >howitzer at a range of say five miles and it exploded into a city block >killing a bunch of people. This would obviously cause a disturbance but >where? would it be where the shell hit or where the demon was currently or >even where the demon was when they fired it? is it like a cybergeneration >virtuality sign saying fugitive here or is it kind of like a general >emergency warning? This depends on what you want to do with disturbance. This is a GM call. You can have the site where The Thing Happened be the disturbance: that would be the city. The demon gets off scott-free. You can have the One Who Incited The Thing be the disturbance site: that puts up a "I JUST KILLED A LOT OF PEOPLE AND DID PROPERTY DAMAGE GALORE!" disturbance out from the demon, who then runs away and hides in Hell if he's smart. You can have the site be the first disturbance, and then let the echoes continue to lead to the demon. You can have *both* the place *and* the demon emit disturbance! (If the demon is right on top of the site, then it doesn't double, but if he's being annoying, then whong, both places get it.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:12:50 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Renegades Walter Milliken wrote: > They cannot be given or taken away without physical (or celestial) > contact. Only question I think I haven't covered is this one - why not? > Their resonance is part of their most basic nature. Only redemption can > change that enough to break their resonance. IYW. ;) I'd say that the demons' connection to Hell is also part of their most basic nature, and going Renegade (see below) denies that, so... :) > Note also that not all Renegades are necessarily discordant (though I > think PC ones are technically required to be) -- someone is a Renegade > if his Prince (or the Game) says he is. Some Renegades are just on the > run for political reasons, and haven't really changed their nature at > all -- they're just trying to survive their Prince's displeasure. This is true, and the Renegades I was referring to were Discordant demons; political refugees might be stripped of Distinctions and Attunements, but probably not Resonances. :) - -EDG Mercurian of Jean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:21:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Renegades At 4:12 PM -0500 10/30/98, Perestroika wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: > >> They cannot be given or taken away without physical (or celestial) >> contact. > >Only question I think I haven't covered is this one - why not? Take the tattoo analogy I gave a few posts back. It's a permanent thing done to the Forces/being of the demon in question. To un-do it, you have to hold the demon down and rip it off. Of course, that's more fun, too, but that's not the only reason Princes do it that way. >> Their resonance is part of their most basic nature. Only redemption can >> change that enough to break their resonance. > >IYW. In canon, actually -- not that anybody has to play by canon if they don't want to! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 16:26 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Renegades [EDG, about Renegades and attunements:] >> They cannot be given or taken away without physical (or celestial) >> contact. > >Only question I think I haven't covered is this one - why not? Mostly meta-reasons, I think -- the game works better if Superiors can't affect other celestials in significant ways at a distance, just on whim. If they can be stripped of parts of their natures, why not simply destroy them? It's probably easier. Also, neither Outcasts nor Renegades are very viable character concepts if their old Superior can affect them, wherever they are, with a thought. Why doesn't it happen *in-game*? Because the Symphony doesn't work that way. Attunements become fundamental parts of a celestial's *own* nature. That's just the way it's set up. Attunements, etc., only get lost if the celestial's whole nature is revamped (by Falling or redemption). Discords are just minor changes in nature by comparison. >> Their resonance is part of their most basic nature. Only redemption can >> change that enough to break their resonance. > >IYW. ;) I'd say that the demons' connection to Hell is also part of >their most basic nature, and going Renegade (see below) denies that, I disagree -- the connection to his *Heart* is part of his basic nature, not the connection to Hell. I believe Renegades may still be able to follow other demons to Hell, or use Tethers -- I don't recall the canon on this, as it hasn't come up in my game. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:27:49 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Renegades Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The granting changes the demon's nature right-then-and-there. It's > not a continuing thing. It's more like a tattoo -- it takes some > effort to put it on, but once it's there, you have to grab the guy > and skin it off him if you want to take it away again. Okay, good metaphor; still, I think I'm going to pull an IMW here. I prefer to think of Superiors as being a bit more remotely powerful than that. "Hm... he's acting... Good. Bad demon - no distinction!" ;) > Rites are a direct tap into the Superior's Essence reserves -- he > can shut those off at the source. (Or *track you* by seeing where > it goes...) *nod* This I agree with wholeheartedly. OTOH, I'd also give a +1 or 2 to any attempt to summon the abandoned Superior for some reason. The player had better roll _really_ well if he wants said Superior to be friendly, however... - -EDG Mercurian of Jean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:28:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Sypmhonic background noise (was: symphony question) Perry Lloyd wrote: > Tee hee... Go Balseraphim!!! > > "Okay, I roll to convince the Symphony that I have a gun." > "Yes!!! sucess with a check of 6!!" > > "Fine, you have a gun, next?" In our regular game, we have "Glamour," which is the power to create purely visual and auditory effects by twiddling with light and sound waves, and then there is "Second-Order Glamour," which is described by the GM as "convincing the universe to treat the target as if it were something else." This sounds like the same idea. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:33:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Diving This talk of Renegades and Outcasts has made me wonder something: Suppose you don't do anything to acquire discord, or any other game-mechanical thing, but are an utter rotter (or, for a demon, a total saint). What happens if a Mercurian shows up at the gates of Hell, without a speck of discord or disonnance on him, and says, "That's it! I quit! is a schmuck! I want to change sides. Where do I sign?" Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 16:42 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Diving >This talk of Renegades and Outcasts has made me wonder something: >Suppose you don't do anything to acquire discord, or any other >game-mechanical thing, but are an utter rotter (or, for a demon, >a total saint). What happens if a Mercurian shows up at the >gates of Hell, without a speck of discord or disonnance on him, >and says, "That's it! I quit! is a >schmuck! I want to change sides. Where do I sign?" I think such an act would, in and of itself, be dissonant for an angel - -- it's basically rejection of the Symphony/God. Pretty much what happened in the original Fall.... So yes, it could happen that an angel could come to such a point, but the act of deciding this would constitute Falling, I think. For demons, this is (relatively) normal -- it's one path to redemption, though probably not the most common. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:46:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Diving At 4:33 PM -0500 10/30/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >This talk of Renegades and Outcasts has made me wonder something: >Suppose you don't do anything to acquire discord, or any other >game-mechanical thing, but are an utter rotter (or, for a demon, >a total saint). What happens if a Mercurian shows up at the >gates of Hell, without a speck of discord or disonnance on him, >and says, "That's it! I quit! is a >schmuck! I want to change sides. Where do I sign?" He gets recruited, and leaves a trail of white fluffy feathers, I'd say. Falling is a choice -- at the least, the choice to do the dissonant thing in the first place. That's just a more obvious choice than doing something dissonant. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 16:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Renegades >OTOH, I'd also give a +1 or 2 to any attempt to summon the abandoned >Superior for some reason. The player had better roll _really_ well if >he wants said Superior to be friendly, however... That's cute. However, I think canon says that Renegades and Outcasts lose the ability to invoke their Superior. It does make more sense that they simply *shouldn't*, though.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 16:15 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Renegades > A Distinction is a matter of respect and honor; In Hell....? Fear and dominance, maybe.... >However, if _you_ abandon your _Superior_, that's a different story; >especially when he's a Demon Prince. If you take off and go Renegade - >for political reasons or Discordance - your Superior's not going to be >happy, and your Attunements and Distinctions are going to vanish with >the snap of his fingers. Nope, not in canon. Partly to keep Superiors from totally dominating things (and to keep Outcasts and Renegades as viable characters), they can't do that kind of thing except in person. (Or *maybe* with access to a Heart.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:55:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Diving I imagine an outcast or renegade (by choice or otherwise) would be liked by the other side, manipulated and kept. In this case, the Mercurian would be instantly outcast and be accepted into Hell's ranks, but until he loses his love for humanity, he won't become a demon. His heart's just not into it. (Maybe it's just one of those millenia long moods.) - Jayson - ---Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > This talk of Renegades and Outcasts has made me wonder something: > Suppose you don't do anything to acquire discord, or any other > game-mechanical thing, but are an utter rotter (or, for a demon, > a total saint). What happens if a Mercurian shows up at the > gates of Hell, without a speck of discord or disonnance on him, > and says, "That's it! I quit! is a > schmuck! I want to change sides. Where do I sign?" > > Earl > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #999 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.