From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Nov 6 06:41:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23181 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:41:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA15293 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:21:22 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:21:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199811061221.GAA15293@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1006 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1006 In this digest: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Wind, Breath, Spirit, Ruach, Pneuma, Ch'i Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Re: IN> Wind, Breath, Spirit, Ruach, Pneuma, Ch'i Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Celestial Chimes IN> Learning Songs Re: IN> Balseraph of Fate IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void RE: IN> Symphony Void IN> RE Sex Lies and celestials Re: IN> Symphony Void IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> RE Sex Lies and celestials IN> Los Angeles IN Net.Book and Campaign Site Re: IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Symphony Void ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:39:06 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Can a Remnant gain a new Celestial Force (via experience/contact with other celestials, being given a Force by a Superior, whatever) or are its Celestial Forces permanently zero? If so, how much of its original Celestial self would return (if any)? PS. I'm planning something unusual involving the Pentagon for my under- construction webpage of IN NPCs. However, anybody know if it's a Tether in canon and if so of whom? Shane (sabriel at bigfoot.com) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:47:49 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance I've looked through the core rules, but nothing springs to clarity; how many Corporeal Forces does it take for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess such-and-such an object? For example: cars, motorcycles, hairdryers, desktop/mainframe/supercomputers, torches, garage door remotes, etc. :) Thanks, Shane (sabriel at bigfoot.com) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:10:44 -0500 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces A superior could graft new Forces onto a Remnant. But the original Forces are destroyed, so what made the Celestial what it was is gone. If a Remnant were to gain a Celestial Force, he would in effect become a whole new Celestial. Celestial Forces make a Celestial what it is, and if you take that away, it stops *being*. It would be like taking a box for a toster and put a can opener in it. The box says "Toaster", but once you open it up (i.e. interact with it), you find out it's not the same as the toaster... eh, original Celestial. The added effect is that other Celestials that knew him previously would be very uncomfortable. Imagine having a friend die, and then the exact duplicate walking on earth, vaguely remembering the relationship you had, but being radically different.in mannerism. Disturbing, huh? Brian Ward On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:39:06 +1000 "Shane" writes: >Can a Remnant gain a new Celestial Force (via experience/contact with >>other celestials, being given a Force by a Superior, whatever) or are >its >Celestial Forces permanently zero? > >If so, how much of its original Celestial self would return (if any)?>PS. I'm planning something unusual involving the Pentagon for my >under->construction webpage of IN NPCs. However, anybody know if it's a >Tether >in canon and if so of whom? > >Shane (sabriel at bigfoot.com) > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:17:50 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... Mark D. Eddy wrote: >I think I've just run into one of my esoteric areas of interest... > >In the Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition spirit is tied to breath in a >literal sense. Ruach (Hebrew), Pneumos (Greek), and Spiritus (Latin) all mean >both "breath" and "spirit" (they can also mean "wind," but that's another >topic...). The mystical breath of life is also the literal act of breathing. >This is the attraction of "angel's vessels must breathe," it implies that the >vessels are supported by the spirit of the Symphony (the wind/air -- in my >campaign Janus is extraordinarily powerful...). Oh yes -- also the devil is also traditionally referred to as "prince of the powers of the air," and that Aquinas thought that the fallen angels resided in the upper atmosphere. The "real story" IMC is that Janus is responsible for confining demonic entries into the physical universe to the Earth -- no demon can go past him and into space. This is the reason that I use to explain why there seem to be more demons than angels -- angels are scattered throughout all of creation, whereas demons are present solely on Earth. Even having just 1/3 of the Host means that they have the local advantage in numbers. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:23:48 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Shane wrote: > > Can a Remnant gain a new Celestial Force (via experience/contact with > other celestials, being given a Force by a Superior, whatever) or are its > Celestial Forces permanently zero? > If so, how much of its original Celestial self would return (if any)? IIRC (and no, I don't have the book in front of me), yes they can gain new Celestial Forces, but they're _new_ Celestial Forces; they're establishing a new pattern instead of reinstating the old one. The CFs that the Remnant had before are lost forever; any new CFs work toward a _new_ personality. Feel free to correct me, though. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:27:58 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Shane wrote: > I've looked through the core rules, but nothing springs to clarity; how > many Corporeal Forces does it take for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess > such-and-such an object? For example: cars, motorcycles, hairdryers, > desktop/mainframe/supercomputers, torches, garage door remotes, etc. :) Depends on how many Corporeal Forces the object has, same as when inhabiting animates. ;) A car is probably quite a few CorpForces; otoh, you could probably inhabit a whole swarm of garage door openers. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:22:38 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces EDG wrote: > IIRC (and no, I don't have the book in front of me), yes they can gain new > Celestial Forces, but they're _new_ Celestial Forces; they're establishing > a new pattern instead of reinstating the old one. The CFs that the > Remnant had before are lost forever; any new CFs work toward a _new_ > personality. Brian wrote: > A superior could graft new Forces onto a Remnant. But the original > Forces are destroyed, so what made the Celestial what it was is gone. > > If a Remnant were to gain a Celestial Force, he would in effect > become a whole new Celestial. Thanks for the prompt replies. Would I be correct in assuming that once they gain a new Celestial Force, they once again can be resonated (though having no Heart, still difficult to locate)? By the way, another thought that occurs to me: since supposedly only Perception-based resonances don't work on Remnants, does a lack of Celestial Forces mean a Will of 0 and thus total helplessness against Infernal resonances based on Will? I'd find it more sensible that Remnants would be "transparent" to Celestial-based resonances in general, not just the Perception half of them. (also wondering whether Habbalah resonance should more realistically be resisted with an Intelligence roll) Shane (sabriel at bigfoot.com) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:35:27 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Wind, Breath, Spirit, Ruach, Pneuma, Ch'i MarkDEddy wrote: >In the Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition spirit is tied to breath in a >literal sense. Ruach (Hebrew), Pneumos (Greek), and Spiritus (Latin) all mean >both "breath" and "spirit" (they can also mean "wind," but that's another >topic...). Agreed. [snip] >In the Eastern view, Ch'i is something else. It is not related to breath, >except that breath or air can be used to help cleanse Ch'i. Really? I thought "ch'i" also literally meant "breath." Perhaps my sources were incorrect. Note also that the current Christian conception of "spirit," at least among the groups I'm familiar with, is not directly related to the physical breath, even though that's what the word means. Perhaps a similar evolution occurred with "ch'i"? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:00:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Oh yes -- also the devil is also traditionally referred to as > "prince of the powers of the air," and that Aquinas thought that > the fallen angels resided in the upper atmosphere. The "real story" > IMC is that Janus is responsible for confining demonic entries into > the physical universe to the Earth -- no demon can go past him and > into space. C. S. Lewis did something similar in his Space Trilogy. In the first volume, "Out of the Silent Planet," we learn from the ruling angel of Mars that, when the Fall happened, the demons were forced back to Earth (Lucifer being, originally, the ruling angel of our planet), and a frontier was established at the orbit of the Moon. In the second volume, "Perelandra," a demon sneaks over the border by possessing an astronaut and nearly causes a second Eden-type disaster on Venus. In the third volume, "That Hideous Strength," we learn that the frontier actually cuts *through* the Moon itself. The side turned toward Earth, the side we see, is devastated by demonic attack, but there is air and water and life on the far side. There are also intelligent Moon-creatures, though the ones on our side live underground and are totally dominated by the infernal, and there is perpetual war at the frontier between the near and far sides of the Moon. Lewis developed this idea from an ancient piece of astronomy, which held that the heavens were made of immutable ether, the fifth element ("quintessence"). Change and corruption were limited to the spheres of fire, water, earth, and air, on Earth. The Moon was in the lowest ethereal sphere, right at the top of Earth's atmosphere, and that's why its face was stained with smudges. So Lewis and Neel are adapting the same idea to modern astronomy in different ways. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:39:48 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels At 03:03 PM 11/4/98 -0500, Earl wrote: >I like that idea, though I gather it's non-canonical; slain vessels >are, I gather, indistinguishable from regular corpses. That >would imply that Superiors go to quite a lot of trouble in their >window-dressing to pursue authenticity. I wonder, do they do that >ALL the time, or might some vessels go poof while others go thud. > It could be that the nature of a role requires the vessel to go thud when it dies, as proof to the world and the symphony that that 'human' has died. It follows then, that celestials without roles might go poof and vanish if they are killed. This would encourage the idea of 'So where's the body?' 'It just vanished, sarge.' 'We've been after this guy for days, no record, no background, nothing. And now you say he just disappeared? You sure you hit him?' Obviously, in front of more than one or two people, this disappearing act would be highly suspicious, but somehow, these mysterious people are always run to earth in dark, empty places, aren't they? };-) Pete Peter Witney peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:35:35 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Shane wrote: > > Thanks for the prompt replies. Would I be correct in assuming that once > they gain a new Celestial Force, they once again can be resonated (though > having no Heart, still difficult to locate)? This would be my guess, although not having the books right here at the moment I really can't say for sure. (I'd also say that any Superior willing to paste a new Force onto a Remnant would probably also be willing to forge or have forged a new Heart for said Remnant, but that's probably just me. :) > By the way, another thought that occurs to me: since supposedly only > Perception-based resonances don't work on Remnants, does a lack of > Celestial Forces mean a Will of 0 and thus total helplessness against > Infernal resonances based on Will? I'd find it more sensible that > Remnants would be "transparent" to Celestial-based resonances in general, > not just the Perception half of them. Can characteristics be lowered to 0? I'd personally give the Remnant a "shadow level" in both Will and Perception, meaning that they can use it for rolls (note that in most cases, they'll have to burn Essence or get an Intervention to even have a chance of succeeding), but that they actually have to purchase that level before they can go on in advancement. Example: Fred the Remnant has 0 Celestial Forces. (No Archangel has smiled upon him yet.) He can still see - barely - and make decisions - barely - but he's not that great in it. He's got a "shadow level" in both Will and Perception, which he can use in his rolls. However, if Fred's player decides that he wants Fred to be a bit more perceptive, he first has to spend 3 CP (four in our campaign; thanks, Perry :P) to buy his Perception up to one (overwriting the shadow level) and then spend another 3 to buy it up to two. This, however, doesn't answer your question. I'd say that yes, Will-based Resonances do work on Remnants with no CelForces, and here's why: Perception-based Resonances depend on actually being able to detect the creature you're trying to detect Celestially. Having no Celestial Forces, Remnants just don't appear Celestially, and are therefore immune. Will-based Resonances, on the other hand, are the user's attempt to impose his own personal Symphony on the target for a short time. Given that Remnants have no CelForces, and therefore don't really even resonate within God's Symphony (iirc! if I'm wrong, feel free to smack me), it ought to be even easier to impose another on them - you're not replacing anything, just filling a void. IMHO. :) > (also wondering whether Habbalah resonance should more realistically be > resisted with an Intelligence roll) It's resisted with Will, no? I'd make it Perception myself (from "he just wants to use me" to "wow, this guy should run the country!"), but I can see how Will works, too. :) - -EDG, Mercurian of Jean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:34:31 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance At 08:27 AM 11/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >Shane wrote: > >> I've looked through the core rules, but nothing springs to clarity; how >> many Corporeal Forces does it take for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess >> such-and-such an object? For example: cars, motorcycles, hairdryers, >> desktop/mainframe/supercomputers, torches, garage door remotes, etc. :) I think, according to errata, one system counts as an object. E.g. toaster, hairdryer, =1 force, car= has multiple forces: 1 for the radio, 1 for the engine, 1 for the car computer etc.etc. Basically, the more elaborate the object (the greater number of subsystems) the more forces it takes for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess it. Of course, the angel could just possess one of the subsystems, (like the car radio, to keep in touch with his friends). Pete peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk Shedim of Kobal, in service to the Demon of Critics ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:08:09 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Wind, Breath, Spirit, Ruach, Pneuma, Ch'i In a message dated 11/5/98 6:53:10 AM, sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net writes: >(MarkDEddy wrote:) >>In the Eastern view, Ch'i is something else. It is not related to breath, >>except that breath or air can be used to help cleanse Ch'i. > >Really? I thought "ch'i" also literally meant "breath." > >Perhaps my sources were incorrect. > Hmm... The translation of ch'i that I've seen is "power" or "energy." WInd/Breath is, IIRC, "Feng" as in Feng Shuei, Wind and Water. Note that this is an Elemental or mystical wind, the sort of wind that cleanses ch'i. >Note also that the current Christian conception of "spirit," at least among >the groups I'm familiar with, is not directly related to the physical >breath, even though that's what the word means. Perhaps a similar >evolution occurred with "ch'i"? > It's possible. It's also possible that Western translators were translating ch'i into Latin as "spiritus" before the translations made it to English. Most of the "modern" translations of Chinese mystical works I've seen (I Ching, Tao de Ching, Feng Shuei texts) are updates of nineteenth century works based on even older texts. Unfortunately, the Communist takeover in China badly suppressed what was biding to be an interesting upsurge in Confucian and Taoist thinking. Now that I'm thinking about it, ch'i probably *has* had a meaning shift. I'd need to dig into my limited Chinese language resources to see what the ideogram looks like. > >Stacy Stroud >sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net > Mark (But I'm having *fun*!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:10:57 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance Peter Witney wrote: > I think, according to errata, one system counts as an object. E.g. toaster, > hairdryer, =1 force, > car= has multiple forces: 1 for the radio, 1 for the engine, 1 for the car > computer etc.etc. > Basically, the more elaborate the object (the greater number of subsystems) > the more forces it takes for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess it. Of course, > the angel could just possess one of the subsystems, (like the car radio, to > keep in touch with his friends). You're absolutely right; it's in the FAQ (it's the first occurrence of the word "Kyriotate") under RULES|Angels. :) Thanks for pointing that out, Paul. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 11:38 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >Can a Remnant gain a new Celestial Force (via experience/contact with >other celestials, being given a Force by a Superior, whatever) or are its >Celestial Forces permanently zero? It can be "fixed", but.... >If so, how much of its original Celestial self would return (if any)? It's a new individual, who happens to have some of the memories (Ethereal Forces) of the old one. >PS. I'm planning something unusual involving the Pentagon for my under- >construction webpage of IN NPCs. However, anybody know if it's a Tether >in canon and if so of whom? I don't have the draft handy, but I vaguely recall that it's in the Tethers book, somewhere. In my own campaign it's a Tether to Laurence, but I don't think that's the canon answer. The other two obvious candidates are Michael and Baal, and I don't recall offhand which, if either, got it. I should note that there are a fair number of canon Tethers in Washington DC -- so many, in fact, that there's some specific discussion of why in the book. (Basically, world capitals draw a lot of human attention and effort.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 11:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >Thanks for the prompt replies. Would I be correct in assuming that once >they gain a new Celestial Force, they once again can be resonated (though >having no Heart, still difficult to locate)? Yes. >By the way, another thought that occurs to me: since supposedly only >Perception-based resonances don't work on Remnants, does a lack of >Celestial Forces mean a Will of 0 and thus total helplessness against >Infernal resonances based on Will? The Will may actually be as high as 3 -- only *whole* Cel. Forces have gone to zero, so it's possible that the Remnant might still have stats below 4 in either Will or Perception (though the total levels can't be more than 3). But, yes, Remnants are easily affected by anything that's Will-based, including skills and Will-based resonances. >(also wondering whether Habbalah resonance should more realistically be >resisted with an Intelligence roll) If the target had a notion that he might be under attack by the resonance, maybe. If I were feeling half-way generous as a GM, I might allow it in that circumstance. Otherwise, I'd say no. The Will-based resistance is essentially simulating the person's sense of self, I think, and is thus the natural way to resist external intrusions on it, of any sort. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 11:48 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >Can characteristics be lowered to 0? Yes. > I'd personally give the Remnant a >"shadow level" in both Will and Perception, meaning that they can use it >for rolls If the Remnant had a Role, I might allow for the Role's level to substitute for both Will and Perception, *only if the roll is for activity normal to the Role*. Or maybe, for Will-based things, for something that might push the Remnant away from normal Role behavior. Thus, a Remnant with a Role as a police detective might still be able to spot clues in a mundane case, and avoid being Fast-Talked into letting a criminal loose, but would have *no* chance of hearing a disturbance. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:48:13 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? (In Nomine, p. 202 "Under normal circumstances, characteristics cost 3 points per level. Once 4 levels have been added to one of a character's pairs of characteristics (Strength and Agility, Intelligence and Precision, Will and Perception), he gains an additional Force of that type.") Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:17:14 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and > Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? In Perry's game (something we learned last night :), if you want to go up in Forces, the new Force _must_ be granted by your Superior (or a Superior, if you're unbound, as Remnants generally are), even if it's earned through CP. If the Superior doesn't want to give you the Force, s/he'll suggest that perhaps you've improved in another area more than you think you have... ^_- - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 14:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and >Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? Canon is silent on this issue. Personally, as a GM I think I'd say this isn't possible -- they lack sufficient connection with the celestial realm to grow in that way. Remnants are supposed to be pretty broken people -- they're either a sort of rote automaton (if they have a Role), or hopelessly confused and dysfunctional (like in the Remnant vignette in the main book). So growth and improvement may be beyond them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:16:05 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial Chimes >>>That was partly what they were intended for. (They were one of my contributions to LR.)<<< And they do serve a useful purpose. But SJ was right to suggest they be called something other than "Song Grenades." "Celestial Chime" has more flavor and suggests other uses than a quickie way to give humans a one-shot Song attack. ("Song Grenades" seems to be what's caught on, though...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:16:01 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Learning Songs >>>I do appreciate that you don't want to answer every little question in detail, but it does get a bit frustrating when the books haven't showed up yet - especially since it takes extra time for them to get over here... :-/<<< Try waiting for your comp copies to make it to Korea. :\ >>>Sorry if I offended, it was not my intent.<<< S'awright, I'm just in a Habbalish mood. - -David, Often Dissonant Elohite of Judgment ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:58:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph of Fate At 3:50 PM -0800 11/4/98, James Garrett wrote: >An NPC that I was running was a Balseraph of Fate with the Kyrio >attunement.[...] >So, what do the PCs see when the Balseraph is ejected from the host? I'm 99% sure this is in the FAQ. He has his Balseraph celestial form. (There may be Special Effects from his angelic resonance, at the GM's whim.) The Form That Drives Mundanes Nuts is not part of the Kyriotate *resonance*, so Balseraphs of Fate don't getit. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:25:44 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Symphony Void So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:30:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces At 10:39 PM +1000 11/5/98, Shane wrote: >Can a Remnant gain a new Celestial Force (via experience/contact with >other celestials, being given a Force by a Superior, whatever) or are its >Celestial Forces permanently zero? If it gets a Celestial Force from anywhere, it is effectively a new being. >If so, how much of its original Celestial self would return (if any)? Shadowy, vague memories. >PS. I'm planning something unusual involving the Pentagon for my under- >construction webpage of IN NPCs. However, anybody know if it's a Tether >in canon and if so of whom? I don't think it's ooched into canon as anything yet, but there were enough Tethers in the the Tetherbook that I don't want to say I'm 100% sure just from memory. Only about 80%. At 12:22 AM +1000 11/6/98, Shane wrote: >EDG wrote: >Thanks for the prompt replies. Would I be correct in assuming that once >they gain a new Celestial Force, they once again can be resonated (though >having no Heart, still difficult to locate)? Yes. >By the way, another thought that occurs to me: since supposedly only >Perception-based resonances don't work on Remnants, does a lack of >Celestial Forces mean a Will of 0 and thus total helplessness against >Infernal resonances based on Will? Yes, technically. (It is possible to have up to Will 3, if you have raised Will 3 points individually, instead of via a new Force... If the GM allows, of course.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:27:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean resonance At 10:47 PM +1000 11/5/98, Shane wrote: >I've looked through the core rules, but nothing springs to clarity; how >many Corporeal Forces does it take for a Kyriotate of Jean to possess >such-and-such an object? For example: cars, motorcycles, hairdryers, >desktop/mainframe/supercomputers, torches, garage door remotes, etc. :) 1 Force per system -- steering, radio, guns, etc. A toaster is 1 Force. (And make them roll -- it's resonance-based!) A car is 1 for driving it, but 2 if you want to talk through the radio. Big or complex things (like a fighter jet) are as many Forces as the GM wants. A tanker could even be 20 Forces or something evil. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:41:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces At 11:48 AM -0600 11/5/98, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and >Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? > >(In Nomine, p. 202 "Under normal circumstances, I think I'd rule that being a remnant isn't normal, and they *can't* self-regenerate that last Force. Normally. There's always Interventions or GM Fiats. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:43:57 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void At 5:25 PM -0500 11/5/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? They'd be Very Upset. Technically, they'd probably be cruising for a Fall -- starting to "make up" that comforting music that previously was all around them, since the moment of their creation. But that may be a bit unplayable. Perhaps they tend to accumulate double dissonance for violating Choir/Archangel dissonance conditions...? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:38:15 EST From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void In a message dated 11/5/98 5:42:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, spook_number_six@hotmail.com writes: << So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? >> Errrrr.... They would either: A) Be scared outta thier wits and figure out the best way outta there (without dying), or B) Cease to Exist. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- John T Perkowski, Ofanite of Arcade Games MASTER of Attunements (Go ahead, Gimme a word and some details, and in 24 hours, you'll get yerself some attunements). "This is Chief Wigam reporting a 318. Waking a police offficer from his roadside nap with a car chase." "Take 'em down, Chief."-The Simpsons ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:32:09 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Symphony Void Well, for one thing, virtually all of the things that make them different from humans would stop. Songs would fail, lots of attunements wouldn't work, and I'm not even sure they could go Celestial. Would vessels need food suddenly? Where were you expecting to find such a place? Almost by definition, there is none such. steve -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd [mailto:spook_number_six@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:26 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Symphony Void So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:49:58 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> RE Sex Lies and celestials I'm _almost_ sorry I brought this up now, but if Gabriel's Pregnant. What cravings do you think she would get? general meeting of the legions of flame: "BRING ME THE HEAD OF A DIABOLICAL OF FIRE!"..... Chris Smith Gremlim of Vapula Why do Calabim of Belial think bigger is better? a little snip here, a little snip there... and all hell breeaks loose! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:22:04 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void In a message dated 11/5/98 2:42:39 PM, spook_number_six@hotmail.com writes: >So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? > >-Perry, KFC > >Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) > >"Remember, false hope is still hope." > -Dilbert > It depends on the reason for the lack of a symphony. If I were feeling cruel, and the Angels had deliberately gone somewhere they knew was symphony-less, I'd have them fall. En masse. And they can strike up their own symphony, and become as God (or, rather, Lucifer...) Mark }::;} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:22:04 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces >Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > >> What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and >> Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? > >In Perry's game (something we learned last night :), if you want to go >up in Forces, the new Force _must_ be granted by your Superior (or a >Superior, if you're unbound, as Remnants generally are), even if it's >earned through CP. If the Superior doesn't want to give you the Force, >s/he'll suggest that perhaps you've improved in another area more than >you think you have... ^_- > >-EDG Yes, but that's a house rule. (So far as I know.) I have a lot of house rules. (Such as 4 CP's per characteristic level. >:) Also, IMC, the PC's have had a lot of communication with their Superiors, which allows for it. (And, Cutstone has the Attunement Azrael's Will, Simon goes up and speaks with Yves a lot and Laurence has been concerned about "Our Invisible Friend" and so has been around to talk with Simon, who is the LAST surviving member of an _elite_ team under Laurence. The PC's are special. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:12:45 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> RE Sex Lies and celestials On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, CA Smith wrote: > I'm _almost_ sorry I brought this up now, but if Gabriel's Pregnant. > What cravings do you think she would get? > general meeting of the legions of flame: > "BRING ME THE HEAD OF A DIABOLICAL OF FIRE!"..... Um, if pregnancy caused Gabriel to crave the heads of Belial's Servitors, would anyone notice any difference? Heck, would there *be* any difference? Now, if she had a sudden craving for some of Beleth's Servitors (Nightmares are Cruel) people would notice. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:25:02 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Los Angeles IN Net.Book and Campaign Site Many of you may remember my Los Angeles/Marches supplement which I posted a good long while ago. Well, I've organized it, chopped it, channeled it, painted some flames on the side, and I'm about to start running the damn thing again after I'm done with my GURPS Worldjumpers game. Check out the preliminary site: http://chronic.lpl.arizona.edu/~corleyj/angels/index.html The LA attunements have been added to significantly! Experienced In Nomine players may find the site too basic for them (although I've changed some of the basic stuff and explained some of it differently, so they may find it useful anyway.) Just cruise over it and eventually you'll find what you're looking for. I'm also adding to it almost daily. I'll keep you posted. Jason onwards ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:26:52 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces Perry Lloyd wrote: > the LAST surviving member of an _elite_ team under Laurence. The PC's > are special. :) Yes, but the PCs also have 16 levels of Discord (including Cutstone, my poor Malakite!) as a direct result of not being able to hear the Symphony. *sigh* How I'm going to explain this one to Azrael I have no idea... - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 18:55:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? Get killed by the Calabim that guard that part of Hell? (If I remember correctly, that's what Hell is.) Either that, or they'd sit (float? stand?) around in the nothingness and wonder what happened to the universe. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:24:37 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... In message , MarkDEddy@aol.com writes > >>> I never liked that exact description for the reason. I >>>prefer to think that the breath is _symbolic_ of life and the >>>soul. So much so, that vessels must have this breathing to >>>connect them to the Symphony properly. Servitors of David >>>might disagree, however! >>> >>Not necessarily. >> >>*Chi* energy... >In the Eastern view, Ch'i is something else. It is not related to breath, >except that breath or air can be used to help cleanse Ch'i. The closest >parallel to Ch'i in Western thinking is electromagnetism. If you can, go >compare a Ch'i flow chart for acupuncture with an anatomy drawing of the human >nervous system. It's only one data point, but I don't have time to provide the >others. > My meridians have been tweaked in the past so I know what you're saying :) There is, of course, no reason to accept that the Eastern View is strictly correct in IN... But in any case, I was thinking as to why Servitors of David might see breathing as *important*, rather than trying to quantify Chi. If I had to, I'd say it was more akin to Essence within the game then anything else. So there you go, maybe breathing ensures good Essence circulation? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:17:42 +0100 From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 06:55:02PM -0400, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > > So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? > Get killed by the Calabim that guard that part of Hell? (If I remember > correctly, that's what Hell is.) IIRC, and it's been a while, Hell isn't outside the Symphony, it's just a part of it that's exceedingly dominated by Dissonance, or some such. (I don't really know how to describe it.) > Either that, or they'd sit (float? stand?) around in the nothingness and > wonder what happened to the universe. (ObQuote: "How to explain? How to describe? Even the omniscient view- point quails." -- Vernor Vinge) The Symphony isn't just the fabric of the universe, it's *everything* *in* the universe (or multiverse, for that matter), so if the Angels were transported outside the Symphony somehow, their very existence would quite likely be eradictated. OTOH, Limbo seems to be "outside" or "beside" the Symphony. So maybe it'll just cut off all sensory input and output (except for the odd bit of Essence). I'm back, BTW. More or less. Working on a somewhat more "cosmic" IN setting, inspired in part by Vernor Vinge's stories in _Across Realtime_, C.S. Lewis' Cosmic Trilogy (of which I have only read the first two parts), and various transhumanist writings. /cd - -- "No doubt we are all familiar with the traditional autonomic reflex of the shoggoth to unfamiliar, distressing and painful stimuli such as sodium hydroxide or the Spice Girls: the shoggoth contracts itself into a ball in order to minimize its exposed surface area." -- Toren G. Atkinson ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1006 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.