From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Nov 7 10:17:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05643 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:17:29 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA01521 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:12:58 -0600 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:12:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199811071512.JAA01521@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1007 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, November 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1007 In this digest: IN> Re: Healing Remnants IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Michael's Nature (Re: The ruling in Michael's trial) IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void Re: IN> Re: Healing Remnants Re: IN> Kyriotate of....DESTINY!!!! Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Re: Healing Remnants Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:50:08 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: Healing Remnants Ok, it's been established that granting a remnant a new celestial force creates a new celestial rather than restore an old one. My question is what happens if one managed to obtain the original forces and reattached them to the remnant. Celestial forces aren't always lost forever. If they were stripped from the celestial to be used for something then it might be possible to recover them. Would giving back the remnant his old forces restore him to what he was? Would it make any difference if the one doing it is his Superior or creator, or would any Archangel or Prince do? It might make for an interesting story seed, a group of angels having to hunt down demons or soldiers to get the forces back and restore their friend. Ben Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:00:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Symphony Void >>>So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST?<<< Theoretically, there is no place where the Symphony does not exist, since the Symphony is, literally, everything. If you theorize a place that is not within the Symphony, you'd basically be suggesting some sort of alternate dimension, and you'd also be putting a finite limit on something that is conceived as being infinite. (In fact, you'd basically be limiting the scope of God's presence and power.) Nothing wrong with that in a noncanonical campaign -- but it has _very_ serious implications for the cosmology of your universe. I wouldn't do it just because it sounds like a cute idea to freak out your PCs. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:36:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void Perry Lloyd wrote: > So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? I agree with the party that says there is no such place. Since "Symphony" is basically celestial-lingo for "universe" or "everything," there is no place outside it. Even Limbo, though it may have no spatial relationship to anywhere else, is at most a "rest" or a "diminuendo" in the music of the Symphony, and is linked to the rest of it by a common arrow of time and the possibility of entry and exit by celestials and Essence. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:56:46 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... In a message dated 11/6/98 2:58:37 AM, jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk writes: >There is, of course, no reason to accept that the Eastern View is >strictly correct in IN... But in any case, I was thinking as to why >Servitors of David might see breathing as *important*, rather than >trying to quantify Chi. If I had to, I'd say it was more akin to Essence >within the game then anything else. > >So there you go, maybe breathing ensures good Essence circulation? > > >-- >Julian > That actually makes a great deal of sense. Think about Songs and how they are performed. A celestial almost always needs to actually *sing* them - Air flow directing Essence! Hmm... Is a Kiyai a corporeal song that Michael taught some Samurai? Perhaps allowing expenditure of one point of essence rather than having to blow all of it. (The Song of Soldiership?) Mark (Just a few Ideas...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:43:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Nature (Re: The ruling in Michael's trial) On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > Michael however says "let's test this. You put > > your theory against mine, whichever holds longest must be stronger, > > more accurate, and closer to the Truth." > > > I don't think Seraphim should claim > to know things their resonance hasn't told them. Who says he is, and that it hasn't? He is after all the oldest and most powerful Seraph in existence, so if he says he knows something, there is at least circumstantial evidence to believe him. Mind you, he lies his arse off in the adventure seed in the back of Liber. Reliq., so perhaps you are right and he is indeed dissonant. Back to the 'Falling Michael' thread... Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:05:40 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void >> So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >> stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? > >Get killed by the Calabim that guard that part of Hell? (If I remember >correctly, that's what Hell is.) No, IIRC, Hell is a MAR upon the Symphony. It's still part of the Symphony, kinda, otherwise Demons wouldn't regenerate Essence. Assuming that Demons get their 1pt/daily essence from God's Symphony, do they get from their own? (evil thought) Also, Songs work in Hell, and Song (so far as I know) are mystic ways of manipulating the Symphony to do nifty things. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:08:43 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Remnants and Celestial Forces >> the LAST surviving member of an _elite_ team under Laurence. The PC's >> are special. :) > >Yes, but the PCs also have 16 levels of Discord (including Cutstone, my >poor Malakite!) as a direct result of not being able to hear the >Symphony. *sigh* How I'm going to explain this one to Azrael I have no >idea... > >-EDG Hrm... from not being able to *hear* the Symphony? On Earth that would be simple matter of too much Celestial Blindness Discord, would it not? >:::) Angels *share* a symphony, currently Cutstone HAS NO SYMPHONY. That's bad. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:12:50 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void >>>>So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST?<<< > > >Theoretically, there is no place where the Symphony does not exist, since >the Symphony is, literally, everything. Yes, of course, that's the Truth IMC. >If you theorize a place that is not within the Symphony, you'd basically be >suggesting some sort of alternate dimension, and you'd also be putting a >finite limit on something that is conceived as being infinite. (In fact, >you'd basically be limiting the scope of God's presence and power.) > >Nothing wrong with that in a noncanonical campaign -- but it has _very_ >serious implications for the cosmology of your universe. I wouldn't do it >just because it sounds like a cute idea to freak out your PCs. Neither would I. :) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:19:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > If it gets a Celestial Force from anywhere, it is effectively a new > being. Okay. What *kind* of being? If the new Celestial Force came from a Superior, they certainly get to decide the issue. But what if other sources are possible? Will it become the same kind of celestial that it is a remnant of? Perhaps it "starts over" as (funny-looking) imp or reliever. Would it be possible for it to be neither angel nor demon? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:27:08 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST?<<< > Theoretically, there is no place where the Symphony does not exist, since > the Symphony is, literally, everything. I'd like to share my thoughts on this one. The symphony is a symphony. Which means that it needs a operah hall or some other room to be performed in. In the beginning there was just void, and then God played a symphony in there, and its not quite finnished yet. So maybe the Symphony fills the entire void, but what if there are areas where the symphony cannot be heard? Well, the Celestials are the instruments, right? So if they go somewhere where the symphony cannot be heard, wont they just take it with them? > If you theorize a place that is not within the Symphony, you'd basically be > suggesting some sort of alternate dimension, and you'd also be putting a > finite limit on something that is conceived as being infinite. (In fact, > you'd basically be limiting the scope of God's presence and power.) True, but infinity is one of those things that are really hard to grasp. But lets say that there are other realities. These would most likely be other symphonies. They could either be other projects written by Iehova (God; "but in the latin alphabet, Jehova is spelled with an I..."), or maybe there are other composers out there..like Mozart.. Early Judaism had a female god too IIRC. Well, if a celestial was to enter another symphony, he would be totally alienated and his existance there would bring dissonance to that Symphony. Maybe he could learn to adapt depending on how similar the instruments of that Symphony is. Well, these are just speculations, thanks for listening. Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:22:38 EST From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Symphony Void In a message dated 11/6/98 12:31:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, spook_number_six@hotmail.com writes: << >>>>So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST?<<< > > >Theoretically, there is no place where the Symphony does not exist, since >the Symphony is, literally, everything. >> Okay lets twist the question a bit. Lets say the angels got stuck someplace where the couldn't sense the symphony. There may be obvious signs of it all around them, but for some reason, it is masked/blocked. They cannot sing songs, use resonance, celestial form, ect.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:30:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: Healing Remnants On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > Ok, it's been established that granting a remnant a new celestial force > creates a new celestial rather than restore an old one. My question is > what happens if one managed to obtain the original forces and reattached > them to the remnant. Celestial forces aren't always lost forever. If > they were stripped from the celestial to be used for something then it > might be possible to recover them. Would giving back the remnant his old > forces restore him to what he was? Would it make any difference if the > one doing it is his Superior or creator, or would any Archangel or Prince > do? It might make for an interesting story seed, a group of angels having > to hunt down demons or soldiers to get the forces back and restore their > friend. > > Ben > Angel of Neat Ideas A neat idea indeed, my friend. VERY neat. I'd imagine that having one's Forces bound into another being, or an artifact, or something else, would indelibly affect those Forces as well, however. In other words, stealing back those Forces from the Djinn to restore your ex-Mercurian friend might be possible, but he'd have some major Djinn tendencies from then on. I don't see the Forces as 'remaining apart' from the other Forces in the being's body...if Baal strips the Mercurian of 3 CelForces and adds them to a 7-Force Djinn, the Djinn is now made of 7 Hell Forces and 3 Stolen-From-the-Mercurian Forces...which would quickly blend into "70% Hell, 30% Mercurian". So if you stripped the 3 Forces from him, they'd actually be .9 Mercurian Forces and 2.1 Hell Forces, mixed together. Now, if the Superior was able to destroy the Djinn and distill the orginal Mercurian essence out of him...I'd imagine that'd be pretty hard to do. Perhaps some lost artifact that would make the Forces 'congeal' and separate...hmm, this has more and more potential.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:08:56 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of....DESTINY!!!! Walter Milliken wrote: > I've generally assumed that possessed vessels are *not* overstrained by > possession, when the celestial is using its high strength or agility. > While possessed, hosts become temporary vessels, being sustained > miraculously without need for food, water, or sleep. I have no problem > extending this to implausible physical feats. Otherwise, Kyrios > possessing animal vessels are going to have a hard time doing anything > useful with them except spying. Yup. > > >Not to mention the amount of stress placed on the most important muscle > >of all - the one that beats 60-72 times a minute. > > As a temporary vessel, the host body may not even be breathing hard -- > if the host needs no food, there shouldn't be any real muscle fatigue, > either. Nor should the body necessarily heat up from energy > expenditure, any more than vessels have problems with heat or cold > temperatures. The normal metabolism is in suspension for the duration. Also yup. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:20:48 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > > What if a Remnant gained a Celestial Force by slowly building up Will and > Perception rather than being given a whole Force by a Superior? > > (In Nomine, p. 202 "Under normal circumstances, characteristics cost 3 > points per level. Once 4 levels have been added to one of a character's > pairs of characteristics (Strength and Agility, Intelligence and > Precision, Will and Perception), he gains an additional Force of that > type.") If the character, somehow, managed to gain the character points (unlikely for your typical remnant... to say the least!), I'd allow them to be reborn as a new celestial. Confused and small and not exactly with it, but much closer to whole. In many cases, I simply would not allow a remnant to use character points to gain characteristics (or require that each increase happen only under extraordinary circumstances). Sometimes they are so broken, that they just can't be fixed. Of course, I'd treat PC remnants significantly different. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:28:00 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void David Edelstein wrote: > If you theorize a place that is not within the Symphony, you'd basically be > suggesting some sort of alternate dimension, and you'd also be putting a > finite limit on something that is conceived as being infinite. While I agree with your conclusion, this statement isn't quite true. The existance of something that is infinite does NOT preclude that other things exist that are not part of the 'something'. I think that you meant 'all encompassing' rather than infinite when you were describing the Symphony. Example: Having an infinite number of apples doesn't mean that oranges can't exist. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:09:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Healing Remnants At 7:50 AM -0600 11/6/98, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >Ok, it's been established that granting a remnant a new celestial force >creates a new celestial rather than restore an old one. My question is >what happens if one managed to obtain the original forces and reattached >them to the remnant. That would be hard to tell... A Prince or Archangel might be able to do that, if they carefully, surgically removed the Forces in the first place... (As opposed to the Forces being ripped away in combat or torture.) But I think that's one of the "If the GM thinks it's plausible, then go for it" sorts of once-in-a-gameworld things. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:15:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces At 12:19 PM -0500 11/6/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> If it gets a Celestial Force from anywhere, it is effectively a new >> being. > >Okay. What *kind* of being? A celestial one! >If the new Celestial Force came >from a Superior, they certainly get to decide the issue. At least, decide Band/Choir. (Princes get Bands. Archangels get Choirs.) I would probably say that the Band/Choir would be the same as the "old" Nature -- a Seraph remnant turns back into a Seraph. Or a Balseraph, if it's a Prince gluing the Forces back on. > Would it be possible for it to be neither angel nor demon? Not in canon. At weirdest, you get a reliver (which is 99% likely to fledge as the former Choir) or demonling (ditto, former Band). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:23:28 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 12:19 PM -0500 11/6/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > >If the new Celestial Force came > >from a Superior, they certainly get to decide the issue. > At least, decide Band/Choir. (Princes get Bands. Archangels get > Choirs.) I would probably say that the Band/Choir would be the > same as the "old" Nature -- a Seraph remnant turns back into a Seraph. > Or a Balseraph, if it's a Prince gluing the Forces back on. [snip] okay, but what if a Superior from the other side grants a Celestial Force to the remnant in question (for whatever reason). does the Remnant spontaneously Redeem/Fall? is that even an issue since it's a new celestial being and the Superior is making a patchwork critter, so that whatever side the Superior serves will dictate the creation's allegiance? if the latter question is affirmative, wouldn't Superiors have their servitors hunting down remnants more often to "draft" another body for their side of the war? -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 03:15:11 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void > Example: Having an infinite number of apples doesn't >mean that oranges can't exist. ;) well if you have a finite space then it does technically mean that since the infinite number of apples takes up all the space. Sorry for nitpicking Ben lilim of LARPs serving malphas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:28:57 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > > Example: Having an infinite number of apples doesn't > >mean that oranges can't exist. ;) > > > well if you have a finite space then it does technically mean that since > the infinite number of apples takes up all the space. Sorry for nitpicking If you have a finite space you can't have an infinite number of apples there at all. Now, if we were talking numbers instead of apples... :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:08:09 EST From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void In a message dated 11/7/98 4:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, anders@strindberg.ling.uu.se writes: << Sorry for nitpicking >> A lot of people are doing this lately, you sure you all aren't serving Ken Walsh? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1007 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.