From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 24 15:12:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06097 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:12:15 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA10922 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:58:41 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:58:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199811242058.OAA10922@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1022 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1022 In this digest: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] Re: IN> In Nomine using Storyteller System Re: IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] IN> Playing chess with the Devil Re: IN> Playing chess with the Devil Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. IN> Freelances Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. IN> Pagan Soldiers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:29:57 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. I think there's a better reason this wouldn't work: Balseraphs' delusion-inducing-lie ability doesn't -actually- change the Symphony. (If it did, it wouldn't be a lie.) It just so happens that they're able to convince themselves and others of something that isn't true. (It -has- to remain Actually Untrue or else the Balseraph gets Dissonance as not fulfilling their role in the Symphony as the embodiment of the lie, and it doesn't work anyway.) So the Balseraph convincing the Lilim that a Geas exists doesn't actually create one. And I would say that along with the Lilim's ability to bind themselves and others with Geases was the inherent ability to detect when they've been bound. (You can't unkowingly strike a bargain with someone - if the geas is traded, it's traded, but you -know- when you make a bargain.) So it would be one kind of Resonance versus the other kind. Now, that alone doesn't mean anything (I always say that Balseraph Resonance attempted on Seraphim automatically fail with both sides realizing exactly why, but that's a house rule), particularly since both Lilim and Balseraphim are demons who run off Will. However! The more the Balseraph makes the Lilim do, the more Dissonance the Lilim will generate, because the Lilim is -giving something away for free- (the horror!) No matter how much the Lilim may THINK and FEEL that they are paying off a powerful Geas, the Geas doesn't Actually Exist. And fulfilling a Geas that doesn't exist is as bad, Symphonically speaking, from a Lilim's point of view, as not fulfilling one that does exist. The principle is the same. This might make an interesting background for someone who wanted to pay a Bright Lilim but was having trouble writing the background. ("He made me - -give- everything away...for free...everything I had, for no reason, just giving it, as if I were a generous person...and you know...I liked it. And now I work here at Christopher's place hustling up toys for needy kids at Christmastime...you should see the looks on their faces...") Jason sighted sub sank same ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:27:59 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. Jason Corley wrote: > Balseraphs' delusion-inducing-lie ability doesn't -actually- change the > Symphony. (If it did, it wouldn't be a lie.) It just so happens that > they're able to convince themselves and others of something that isn't > true. (It -has- to remain Actually Untrue or else the Balseraph gets > Dissonance as not fulfilling their role in the Symphony as the embodiment > of the lie, and it doesn't work anyway.) Sorry, but that's not the Balseraph dissonance condition. Balseraph can't lie, that's what they gain dissonance for. My personal suggestion in this situation would be a quick contested roll between their two abilities, with the Lilim checking to feel the debt and the Balseraph trying to make her feel it. And Heaven help the Balseraph on the day he does fail, cause no Lilim will ever do business with him again. - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:06:45 -0600 From: Matt Lee Subject: IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] I was wondering if anyone could tell me how well or how much the Final Trumpet really ties together the rest of the revelations cycle? I have Night Music and I'm definitely going to run that adventure but I've been told by some that NM, FotM and FT are the only ones that really tie in to the er.."Megacampaign" much, as its called in the FT description on the website. So my question is...I'm going to have some money soon and I'm plannin on buying a couple IN books, and I want to run the Revelations cycle w/my new online group (on IRC, I could probably use 1 or 2 more players if anyone's interested, but chances are if you've played before you're more experienced w/the game than me so don't expect anything spectacular for awhile til I'm more comfortable with it). So how well does FT really tie them together and especially w/the reported problems w/FotM would it be more economically efficient to just get FT and some Core books I need rather than FotM right now or is FT a little less climactic if not preceded by the others, and the others therefore more difficult to run after running FT or anything like that? I've made a simple question much longer than it needed to be so I'll leave it up to anyone who'd like to offer their advice on it now. Thanks. Matt Lee mattlee@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~mattlee/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:29:54 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine using Storyteller System Randell Wolff wrote: > As far as using the angels and demons along with the menagerie of > supernaturals...I don't know. I think angels and demons are enough to > keep everyone in trouble, but I'm sure I'll begin experimenting > eventually with others. I've always thought that none of the > Storyteller games work well when mashed together into one, overcrowded > World of Darkness. If you use all the supernaturals that have been > published, you'd almost have no room for mundane humanity. But this is > just a pet peeve of mine. I must say I find "borrowing" ideas from vampire useful for In Nomine - it adds more dimension to the undea,d, who aren't given much of a write up. Even a minor angel or demon would have a powerful infuence over vampire politics if only because he's more powerful (2/3 more forces, more songs/abilites). I think the mage debate is interesting, angels and demons shouldn't create paradox in most circumstances as they would be inherently tied up with humanity - anything out of the ordinary must be the hand of god or a miracle. I certainly would consider Angels and Demons (based on IN) as NPC's for white wolf games (if only to make Warewolves look puny) Roland Ward ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Matt Lee wrote: > I was wondering if anyone could tell me how well or how much the Final > Trumpet really ties together the rest of the revelations cycle? I have > Night Music and I'm definitely going to run that adventure but I've been > told by some that NM, FotM and FT are the only ones that really tie in to > the er.."Megacampaign" much, as its called in the FT description on the > website. Yes, it is true that FotM and FT are the only ones that really directly tie in. The extended superior writeups in the others are good, and at least the whirlwind tour of heaven and hell in H&H is nice (if brief), but the adventures in those two are all but sidelines (with the exception of the introduction of a major NPC in H&H) to the main "arc". (In fact, even the Night Music adventures doesn't tie in completely with the thread that runs through FotM and FT.) You could run the FT adventures without first running FotM; instructions are included for that. However, the FotM adventure (despite its flaws which have been beaten to death here) does set up the FT adventures. If you are only going to get two of the cycle, and your intention is to run the "Megacampaign," get the last two. Re: the other three books (APG, IPG, LR), all of them are nice but not "necessary" IMHO. The IPG comes out just a little better than the APG, but both are helpful for getting a handle on those odd angels and demons people. There is no great and necessary, er, revelation in either book, however. There are things like "expanded resonances" which, especially in the APG, have drawn severe criticism; be warned. LR is a better read than I would have expected it to be going in. I was expecting a long and dry list of "stuff," but most of the artifacts are adventure seeds in and of themselves. The list of talismans and relics in the main IN book is paltry; this both expands it, clarifies and solidifies the rules on creation of artifacts, and presents lots of fun ideas in the form of things. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:12:23 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Playing chess with the Devil Re: Neel's idea on demons challenging their hellsworn soldiers to one last game for their souls upon death. - -- Oddly enough, I did write up one example of a mummy who played chess once a month with the Prince of the Game, on the understanding that if he won, he'd be released from service and if he lost, he'd be destroyed. Irritatingly, Asmodeus smugly stalemated him every single time, and thus kept him in eternal servitude. But that was a special case. The Game is awfully vindictive like that to special enemies. What I was going to ask was why the demons don't cheat :-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:01:48 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Playing chess with the Devil >What I was going to ask was why the demons don't cheat :-) > > > >jo Because 'The Game' always plays by the rules... ...It's not our fault that they never explained what the rules were in the first place. - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 12:04 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. > Can a Balseraph convince a Lilim (On a successful Resonance roll, where >the target has obviously failed her Will roll to resist), that she owe's >them a favor? Cute trick. I'd say yes, though it would probably work better if he tried to convince the Lilim that it was an "unofficial" favor (i.e., one that she didn't actually have a Geas for). A slight variant would be to convince the Lilim that he'd just done her a favor, and she owed him a Geas in return. > Is it that hideously easy for a Balseraph to rack up a lot of Geas that >the Lilim must fulfill? It works once, or maybe a few times if the Bal runs away quickly.... After a few minutes, the Lilim realizes she's been had, and starts calling up her sisters and telling them there's a Bal forcing Lilim to give freebies. A few hours later, the Bal is going to find himself in a dark alley somewhere with about a dozen assorted Calabim and Djinn, with a few Lilim lurking in the background explaining exactly why this sort of trick is a *bad* idea -- it's not worth the ultimate price. If the Bal tricked a future Geas out of the Lilim, then he's going to have fun trying to call it in -- she'll probably be waiting for him with a few friends.... And this is also a good case to invoke Mother -- this is exactly the kind of Lilim abuse that she can't let happen (or some of the Bal Princes might decide to try it on her...). > Cannon answers might be helpful, Yeah, a cannon is probably a good start to use on the Bal. If I were the Lilim in question, though, I think I'd just sell him afterward to the Vapulans as a research subject. Or maybe set him up with the Game. > even though I wound up letting the >Balseraph pretend that the Lilim owed them a Geas equal to the check digit >of the Resonance roll (which happened to be a 1). Seems reasonable. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 12:12 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. > particularly since both >Lilim and Balseraphim are demons who run off Will. Uh, no, Lilim are Perception-based, not Will-based, for their resonance. The target *resists* with Will, but the ability to create the Geas is based on the Lilim's Perception of the target. > However! The more the >Balseraph makes the Lilim do, the more Dissonance the Lilim will generate, >because the Lilim is -giving something away for free- (the horror!) There may indeed be some dissonance possible here, but probably only for Free Lilim. And I'd rule that they could get rid of it by making the Bal pay for what he forced from them. > No >matter how much the Lilim may THINK and FEEL that they are paying off a >powerful Geas, the Geas doesn't Actually Exist. And fulfilling a Geas >that doesn't exist is as bad, Symphonically speaking, from a Lilim's point >of view, as not fulfilling one that does exist. The principle is the >same. I'd disagree with the latter statement. They *can* give favors away if they want, without dissonance. (Though the Game may have some hard questions for them, if they do that....) But they're not very likely to want to! However, I would say that giving in to this sort of compulsion is bad for Free Lilim, due to Lilith's dissonance conditions. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:24:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Freelances Ashriel chewed carefully, savoring the sensation. Fascinating! He saw, now, why Judgement angels often warned against pleasures of the flesh. He swallowed carefully, got it down the right pipe this time, and did not choke. "How was that?" he asked. Deuel shifted in her chair and chose her words carefully. She didn't want to hurt his feelings, but a tactful lie was, in his case, out of the question. "As an act of eating, much better. Now, there are also other rules. Earthly etiquette. For instance, I can tell from the sound of your voice that you still have some stuck to the roof of your mouth. No, no! Use your tongue, not your fingers. Another piece of etiquette." The Mercurian watched while the young seraph tried to dislodge the peanut butter. She would tell him about the peanut butter on the end of his nose in a minute. There was knock at the door. Deuel walked over, peered through the peephole, and admitted a teenaged boy in de rigeur T-shirt, reversed cap, and baggy shorts, carrying a thick manila envelope. "Here you are!" he said cheerfully, handing her the envelope. "Richard Ash. Birth certificate, social security card, credit cards, school records, bank stuff, apartment lease, and a list of job interviews. Oh, and a driver's license. Uh, does he know how to drive yet?" He cast a glance into the kitchenette, where Ashriel, now aka Richard Ash, had discovered the peanut butter on the end of his nose and removed it himself. With his tongue. Very seraphic. "No, he doesn't." "Well, I have a friend who's a car. Familiar for an Ophanite who's out of town a lot." The boy sat down at the table, opposite the seraph. "It'd be happy to chauffer you around when it's free. Good driving instructor, too." "Thank you," said Ashriel. "You are...?" "Ithiel." Ashriel waited a beat for the usual statement of choir and word, but none was forthcoming. "My flock does Roles for Dee and her gang. She'll put you in touch if you have any trouble with paperwork." The boy rose, flipped the seraph a salute, turned into a pigeon, and flew out through the window, despite the fact that it was closed. "That was a remarkably quiet transformation," Ashriel remarked. "Yes. That's because there was no vessel involved." "You mean he was in celestial form!?" Deuel nodded. "All done with Song of Motion and some kind of Glamour trick he picked up in the Marches." "Why doesn't he use his vessel?" "He doesn't have one. He's a reliever." "But Archangels do give relievers vessels sometimes." "Yes, but he doesn't have an Archangel, either." "How-? But-- What's he doing down here? How did he get here?" "He wants to be. There are a fair number of freelance relievers down here, if you know where to look for them. They keep very quiet, though, for safey's sake. And because they know some Archangels disapprove of the habit. But they *do* make themselves useful, like Ithiel and his friends. Great Role-runners. Been at it since the 17th century, too." Which made Ithiel older than Ashriel. She let that sink in, then continued: "They get up and down through the Tethers of the more easy-going Archangels. Eli, of course. Novalis and Blandine. Even Michael, sometimes; he likes loners." "Well, well," said Ashriel, gamely picking up his glass of milk and preparing to practice drinking. "They warned me life down here was complicated." - --- Denise dropped her books on the library carrel and started to sit. She paused half way down and rose again, her eye caught by the new book on her shelf. Larson's "Compositional Studies of Baroque Painting"! The librarians had told her the copy had gone missing! She silently blessed whatever dedicated little functionary had looked behind a bookcase, or something, and found it. On the rafter above her head, a mouse peered down with more-than-rodentine perception. A smile quirked lips not designed for the operation as it accepted the blessing. Denise had flipped the book open to an illustration showing some chubby hero being born aloft on a cloud. Winged baby-figures hovered respectfully about. The mouse sniffed. It would rather look like a mouse, it decided, and let the cherubim labor on under that image, even if it meant scrounging minor vessels from condescending angels and having no publicity. No matter what Jediel said. - --- Irijah, Elohite of Fire, strode across the campus in her Role of Irene Jacobs, head of technical services at the universe library. She looked perfectly composed, just as if she did not have an invisible winged baby flitting around her head, nagging her. "But it's *cruel*, isn't it?" Jediel demanded. "Stealing the book that way, so your classmates can't use it?" "You could call it that," conceded Irijah, "but I doubt that the motive was to cause suffering." "You could check. I'd be happy to point her out to you. And from what Ibniah said--" "The mouse?" "Yes. Ibniah said she positively glowed when Denise mentioned at lunch how frantic she was to find the Larson book." "Very well, I will look into it." "Thanks." "But why don't you ask a Judgement servitor next time?" "There aren't any on campus." "How about *you*? Why don't you become a Judgement servitor? You seem more than suited for it." "I don't want Judgement," said the reliever, trying to growl. "I want Justice. But there's no Archangel for that. Any more than there's an Archangel for the Word I really want to serve. Not any more." And Jediel flitted away, leaving Irijah to wonder if she herself had been a little cruel. - --- I tend to find the rigid partitioning of angels and demons under their Superior hierarchies to feel, well, just that -- rigid. Characters like the farmed-out servitors of Eli are one exception. Here I propose another -- freelance relievers. Relievers are not necessarily assigned to an Archangel. They aren't even "real angels" yet. Of course, playing a freelance reliever poses a lot of challenges. You have no attunements. (Contrariwise, you have no dissonance conditions and are, as far as I can see, immune to Discord.) Unless you can scrounge a vessel, typically from an angel who doesn't want it any more, you have no vessel and must lay very low or practice some kind of illusion to avoid attracting attention, mortal or celestial. You have no chance of invoking any Archangel. You have no Heart, and so may wind up in Limbo after a fight, if you survive at all. You have no organizational base. Unless you and your buddies build one, of course. And you CAN make friends. And learn Songs. Why would one be a freelance reliever? Perhaps out of a pure desire to see some Earthly action, when none of the Archangels are hiring, or none that you like. Perhaps the Archangels -- or some of them -- actively encourage freelancers like Ithiel, who busy themselves quietly, supplying celestial infrastructure like Roles. Perhaps you want to see a Word served and there's no Archangel for it -- such as Justice (never assigned) or Knowledge (deceased). Ibniah and Jediel are orphaned relievers of Knowledge. Perhaps you are a generalist by temperament. No choir's attunements seem worth the dissonance conditions, and you don't want to serve a Word, you just want to Do Good. I'm sure Judgement doesn't like the idea of freelancers. Too hard to keep track of. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:39:16 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. Yeah, it's a 'me too' post, but Walter's take is clost to the way I'd do it (well... I'd let the Lilim handle her own situation more often than not, but we have the same general thrust). ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:41:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim. At 8:41 AM -0600 11/22/98, Shadowstar wrote: > Can a Balseraph convince a Lilim (On a successful Resonance roll, where >the target has obviously failed her Will roll to resist), that she owe's >them a favor? For the duration of the Balseraph's successful resonance roll... (If he can convince her to self-Geas, then that's another story.) > Is it that hideously easy for a Balseraph to rack up a lot of Geas that >the Lilim must fulfill? Just remember that after a certain point (assuming that the Balseraph has gotten her to *pledge* Geases), it becomes *cheaper* for the Lilim to call for Mom and promise her a year or two to do something educational to the Balseraph. Or else she starts doing stuff for the Bal -- like fulfilling Needs, slams him with a mongo Song of Celestial Charm, and then the next thing you know he's waiting tables in the Guildhall, wearing a muzzle, for the next three years. Yes, a Bal can get away with it for a while, but the instant that the Lilim realizes that she was forced (which might or might not cause dissonance for one of the Free -- if she thinks it's her own idea, she's clear, but she'll be *REALLY* PO'ed when she comes out from under it)... Well, it won't be pretty. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 06:55:44 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Pagan Soldiers G'day. Looking through The Marches recently, I found a bit that... doesn't sit well with me. Pagan Soldiers (that is, 6-Force humans in service to an Ethereal God), get to use Ethereal Songs and the 3 versions of the Song of Dreams. I dislike that for a number of reasons. It makes Pagan Soldiers more versatile and (sometimes) subtle than normal Soldiers (since the Ethereal Songs are often a bit less obvious and direct than Corporeal versions), and it doesn't make much sense under the IN paradigm. Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect them. I guess what I'm wondering is, how do others treat Pagan Soldiers? Do you like having Pagan Soldiers being qualitatively different to normal Soldiers? Is it perhaps worth errata-ing Pagan Soldiers to make them closer to other Soldiers? If a tree falls in the forest, and it hits a mime, does anyone care? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia There is always room on TV for a man who can beat people to jelly in nine flat... HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1022 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.