From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 25 14:54:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07854 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:54:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA16963 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:41:21 -0600 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:41:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199811252041.OAA16963@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1023 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1023 In this digest: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers IN> Balseraphim and Lilim IN> Pagan Soldiers IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us Re: IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us Re: IN> Playing chess with the Devil Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim IN> Oh no, not more lemmings! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:42:39 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > Looking through The Marches recently, I found a bit that... doesn't > sit well with me. Pagan Soldiers (that is, 6-Force humans in service to > an Ethereal God), get to use Ethereal Songs and the 3 versions of the > Song of Dreams. > I dislike that for a number of reasons. It makes Pagan Soldiers > more versatile and (sometimes) subtle than normal Soldiers (since the > Ethereal Songs are often a bit less obvious and direct than Corporeal > versions), and it doesn't make much sense under the IN paradigm. I never noticed that bit before. Of course, Pagan Soldiers have yet to show up in my campaign, so it hardly surprises me that I missed that. > I guess what I'm wondering is, how do others treat Pagan Soldiers? Iodine and antibiotics? :) > Do you like having Pagan Soldiers being qualitatively different to > normal Soldiers? It is a good idea, I think. I don't have The Marches in front of me, but IMHO they should be qualitatively different. Regular Soldiers are taught to manipulate the Symphony (or to force the symphony of their master on the Symphony). Pagan Soldiers (again, IMHO) are invested with a portion of the power of the Pagan spirit who made them a Soldier. Because of that, they partake of the nature of that spirit. I'd also rule that personality changes would occur in a human who becomes a Pagan Soldier, also reflecting the nature of the spirit who changed them. Hmmm...plot seed forming... > Is it perhaps worth errata-ing Pagan Soldiers to make them closer to > other Soldiers? I don't think so. > If a tree falls in the forest, and it hits a mime, does anyone care? Only in Ankh-Morpork, where the citizens regret that he didn't survive. They much prefer the spectacle of a public scorpion pit execution. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:54:27 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > G'day. > Looking through The Marches recently, I found a bit that... doesn't > sit well with me. Pagan Soldiers (that is, 6-Force humans in service to > an Ethereal God), get to use Ethereal Songs and the 3 versions of the > Song of Dreams. > I dislike that for a number of reasons. It makes Pagan Soldiers > more versatile and (sometimes) subtle than normal Soldiers (since the I don't see it that way. They have to learn the Songs like any soldier, and the Superiors can teach /anything/- they just have some they only typically use. > Ethereal Songs are often a bit less obvious and direct than Corporeal ... Depends on the song and the usage. > versions), and it doesn't make much sense under the IN paradigm. Why doesn't it make sense? > Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, > requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal > Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect > them. haven't read it yet. > > I guess what I'm wondering is, how do others treat Pagan Soldiers? > Do you like having Pagan Soldiers being qualitatively different to > normal Soldiers? Is it perhaps worth errata-ing Pagan Soldiers to make I don't really see them as being that different... > them closer to other Soldiers? If a tree falls in the forest, and it > hits a mime, does anyone care? Yes! It's another one on my friend's scorecard! (Malakim Angel of Killing Mimes. Very Heavenly duty.) > > -- > Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia > > There is always room on TV for a man who can beat people to jelly > in nine flat... > > HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:51:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim >>>Actually, no it is _not_ that easy. Their reputation as Liars precedes them, and I personally think it would be smart to test almost everything a Balseraph told me.<<< Of course all celestials know that Balseraphs are liars -- but knowing you are dealing with a Balseraph doesn't make you less vulnerable to his resonance. >>>As soon as a Lil tests the bonds of the Geas, it is going to feel the lack of bite, the lack of dissonance from breaking/resisting a Geas it owed.<<< True -- *if* the Lilim is willing to risk dissonance gambling that the Geas is a false one. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:50:45 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pagan Soldiers >>>Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect them.<<< As it explains in the Songbook, the Ethereal Connection attunement *can* be granted by certain very powerful ethereals (e.g., so-called "pagan gods"). But it's safe to assume that the number of ethereals who can do so (and thus the number of pagan Dream Soldiers) is pretty small. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:50:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Running the Revelations Cycle [No Spoilers] [Robert Knop's comments snipped] I tend to agree with pretty much everything Robert said. IMO (as one of the participants in the writing of the Revelations cycle, though I had very little to do with the adventures themselves), the cycle did fail to live up to its "epic, megacampaign" promise. Actually, I'm not even sure why the Marches and Heaven & Hell are labeled as part of the Revelations cycle, since H&H has just one short adventure with a tenuous tie-in to the rest of the cycle, and the Marches doesn't even have that. I'm one of those people who rarely runs adventures straight out of a book anyway, and I've always bought supplements for the background material and extra resources they offer. In my (admittedly biased) opinion, Fall of the Malakim and Final Trumpet are still worth getting even if you don't like the adventures as written. FotM in particular has an excellent write-up of Los Angeles and wonderfully fleshed-out characters -- it gives you a great example of how to give a major city an In Nomine "feel," and how to create a unique, city-specific celestial culture with interacting personalities and an interesting history that makes celestials relevant on the scene without overwhelming "real" history by making everything part of a celestial plot. FotM and Final Trumpet both have excellent expanded Superior write-ups as well. (Boy, weren't the write-ups of Baal and Magog particularly good? What a talented writer! What's his name again? >;D) However, I too agree with many other voices that have expressed the opinion that expanded Superior write-ups should be collected in a volume (or several) of their own, rather than scattered among adventure supplements. >>>LR is a better read than I would have expected it to be going in. I was expecting a long and dry list of "stuff," but most of the artifacts are adventure seeds in and of themselves. The list of talismans and relics in the main IN book is paltry; this both expands it, clarifies and solidifies the rules on creation of artifacts, and presents lots of fun ideas in the form of things.<<< I'd say modesty forbids me from mentioning that the same talented fellow who edited and wrote much of the Liber Reliquarum also edited and wrote much of the upcoming Liber Canticorum...except I have no modesty. OK, just kidding...let me shove that raging ego back into the box where it belongs and nonetheless issue an unabashed plug for the Liber Canticorum, aka "Songbook," which I believe will do everything for Songs that the LR did for artifacts and more. (And there is no adventure in the LC and only one sample character....almost all pagespace was devoted to expanded rules and expanded Song lists.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:29:03 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us You've all heard _that_ story, right? The one about the businessman who goes out with a strange girl while on a junket somewhere, and wakes up to find himself in a bath of ice and missing some kidneys or a liver, with "DIAL A HOSPITAL" scribbled on the wall above him? Urban myth, right? That's what *they* want you to think. URBAN MYTHS R US - ---------------- (with thanks to Jo Hart, who helped think it up) A while ago, Vapula set a particular project in train. It involved implanting certain devices in the kidneys of a chosen group of businessmen, without the knowledge of the poor mortal victims. These devices were (take your pick): (a) Modems. Vapula is testing out his VapuNet, using the miniaturised broadcasting modems as vital components, and also letting him hack into the computers where the businessmen work. (b) Genetic modifiers. Vapula is using the children sired by the businessmen after getting the implants as the control population for a new experiment. (c) Essence absorbers, designed to suck the Essence from the victims and from people nearby. (d) Something similarly fiendish. However, Vapula now wants the devices back, because: (a) He wants to upgrade. (b) The businessmen have _sired_ the target population, and don't need the genetic modifiers any more. (c) He wants to check their functioning. (d) Whatever. A hit team of Vapulans is therefore out there, working with a group of Servitors of Valefor to collect the organs that contain the devices, and bring them back to Vapula. The Thieves, being their merry-wanderer-of-the-night selves (yes, Puck _was_ a giggling psychopath, I am convinced of it) have decided to turn the whole thing into an urban myth by leaving the victims alive and in the traditional situation. Where The Players Come In - ------------------------- If the players should be drawn into the situation (possibly because a businessman they know gets his kidneys harvested) they may find common threads among the businessmen who have had this happen to them (perhaps they all visited a conference together three years ago, or all belonged to a particular company, or something) or they may be able to trace the Thieves or Vapulans if they are hot on the trail. If the players are angels, they'll clearly want to do something about this. If they're demons, it's possible that one of the businessmen among the victims yet to be harvested will be of interest to their Prince or his operations - or they may simply see the chance to collect a bit of Vaputech quietly for their own Prince's benefit. (Of course, in that case, they had best not get caught doing so...) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:35:14 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, > requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal > Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect > them.<<< > > As it explains in the Songbook, the Ethereal Connection attunement *can* be > granted by certain very powerful ethereals (e.g., so-called "pagan gods"). > But it's safe to assume that the number of ethereals who can do so (and > thus the number of pagan Dream Soldiers) is pretty small. But does that connection get extended to non-Dream Pagan Soldiers (whoa, too many adjectives)? I mean, if there are Pagan Soldiers that work solely in the Corporeal plane (and I imagine there must be some), do they also have the Ethereal Connectiona and use Ethereal Songs? That's what I'm wondering about. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia There is always room on TV for a man who can beat people to jelly in nine flat... HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:46:48 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers B.H. wrote: > > Ethereal Songs are often a bit less obvious and direct than Corporeal > > ... Depends on the song and the usage. Granted, and I was making a bit of a generalization. But the Ethereal stuff tends toward the useful non-combat stuff (telekinesis, invisibility, mental powers) that are useful without being as combat-oriented as many of the Corporeal songs (armour, Numinous Corpus, Thunder etc). > versions), and it doesn't make much sense under the IN paradigm. > > Why doesn't it make sense? In the basic IN book, it says cold and clear that humans (soldiers) only get to learn & use Corporeal Songs. They _can't_ use others. The Marches pushed that out to include Dream Soldiers, who got to use Ethereal Songs. The Songbook (okay, it hasn't been published yet, but it's in there) has clarified that by saying that humans can get a 10-pt Attunement that allows them to use non-Corporeal Songs. That all seems pretty cut & dried to me. Humans are Corporeal creatures, and only get to use Corporeal powers even if promoted to Soldier status. It's a major commitment of a Superior's energy and time to forge the connection that allows them to use non-Corporeal Songs (as David Edelstien pointed out some time ago). That's the way it works in IN. But somehow, Ethereal Gods (who are defined as being much _less_ powerful than Celestial Superiors) are able to completely ignore this. Their Soldiers get Ethereal Songs without the Attunement, but not the Corporeal Songs that would appear to be their 'birthright' (as it were) - _except_ for the Song of Dreams, where they can not only learn the Corporeal version, but the Celestial version as well! I find it inconsistent (which is not to say that it _is_, just that it seems such to _me_), and that bothers me. > > Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, > > requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal > > Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect > > them. > > haven't read it yet. Pyramid subscription, dude. Can't recommend it enough. > > I guess what I'm wondering is, how do others treat Pagan Soldiers? > > Do you like having Pagan Soldiers being qualitatively different to > > normal Soldiers? Is it perhaps worth errata-ing Pagan Soldiers to make > > I don't really see them as being that different... But they _are_ that different, at the moment. I'd like to see them operating under the same rules as normal Soldiers, but with wildly different aims and ideals (which is where I find the fun, frankly). - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia There is always room on TV for a man who can beat people to jelly in nine flat... HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:47:06 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers > I find it inconsistent (which is not to say that it _is_, just that >it seems such to _me_), and that bothers me. You're being too polite ;) It is blatently inconsistent. It's really only the song of dreams which has any connection between its ethereal form and the ethereal plane IIRC. I'd either allow all soldiers to learn ethereal songs, or else none of them, with a caveat on that attunement which is unlikely to be available to ethereals. Maybe pagan soldiers can get given a way to allow their bodies to be used temporarily as vessels by the deity in question, which would explain why some seem to use songs which would be normally unavailable. ('I felt infused by the spirit of the God, and he breathed prophecies through my lips...') Does an ethereal actually have to be a god to recruit soldiers? Can they only be recruited by superiors? What's to stop any little pimply familiar with impressive looking horns from giving the recruitment spiel to some useful looking soldier-type and never telling anyone? (I mean really, some people are so desperate to sell their souls to Satan for the coolness-value that they'll take the first offer they get!) I can also easily imagine a demon taking advantage of some mortal's fascination with ethereal gods to impersonate as one for the purposes of getting the mortal to worship it. >I'd like to see them operating under the same rules as normal Soldiers, but with wildly >different aims and ideals (which is where I find the fun, frankly). I agree :-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:01:05 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > B.H. wrote: > > > > Ethereal Songs are often a bit less obvious and direct than Corporeal > > > > ... Depends on the song and the usage. > > Granted, and I was making a bit of a generalization. But the Ethereal > stuff tends toward the useful non-combat stuff (telekinesis, invisibility, > mental powers) that are useful without being as combat-oriented as many of the > Corporeal songs (armour, Numinous Corpus, Thunder etc). > > > versions), and it doesn't make much sense under the IN paradigm. > > > > Why doesn't it make sense? > > In the basic IN book, it says cold and clear that humans (soldiers) only > get to learn & use Corporeal Songs. They _can't_ use others. The Marches > pushed that out to include Dream Soldiers, who got to use Ethereal Songs. The > Songbook (okay, it hasn't been published yet, but it's in there) has clarified > that by saying that humans can get a 10-pt Attunement that allows them to use > non-Corporeal Songs. Different soldier-types. > That all seems pretty cut & dried to me. Humans are Corporeal creatures, > and only get to use Corporeal powers even if promoted to Soldier status. It's > a major commitment of a Superior's energy and time to forge the connection > that allows them to use non-Corporeal Songs (as David Edelstien pointed out > some time ago). That's the way it works in IN. I think that the change is that these soldiers gain their power direct from the Ethereal. Remember, Ethereals work a bit different. > But somehow, Ethereal Gods (who are defined as being much _less_ powerful > than Celestial Superiors) are able to completely ignore this. Their Soldiers > get Ethereal Songs without the Attunement, but not the Corporeal Songs that > would appear to be their 'birthright' (as it were) - _except_ for the Song of > Dreams, where they can not only learn the Corporeal version, but the Celestial > version as well! Not too unusual. The EG's are weaker, yes, but also different. Maybe the loss of the corporeal songs is how they gained the Ethereal. As for the Song of Dreams... It would be only natural that the true natives of the DreamWorld would know how to teach them to their soldiers differently than Superiors. > I find it inconsistent (which is not to say that it _is_, just that it > seems such to _me_), and that bothers me. I just don't seem to see an inconsistency here. > > > > Now, I know that the Songbook has some material that changes this, > > > requiring a 10-point Attunement that allows humans to use non-Corporeal > > > Songs. But Ethereals can't grant Attunements, so this won't affect > > > them. > > > > haven't read it yet. > > Pyramid subscription, dude. Can't recommend it enough. College student. Noooo money. > > > > I guess what I'm wondering is, how do others treat Pagan Soldiers? > > > Do you like having Pagan Soldiers being qualitatively different to > > > normal Soldiers? Is it perhaps worth errata-ing Pagan Soldiers to make > > > > I don't really see them as being that different... > > But they _are_ that different, at the moment. I'd like to see them > operating under the same rules as normal Soldiers, but with wildly different > aims and ideals (which is where I find the fun, frankly). Why? They're not the same as normal Soldiers. Different sources of power. > > -- > Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia > > There is always room on TV for a man who can beat people to jelly in nine > flat... > > HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:42:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us You know what is hilarious about this adventure? Not that it uses the Infamous Kidney/Liver story. Not that it isn't twisted, weird and wrong. Just that it was posted by my In Nomine GM. So if you want me, I'll be cowering under my desk. - - Em Current Quote: "What? Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?" - Nieztsche ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:27:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure : Urban Myths R Us Cute idea, and it makes more direct and diabolical use of Vapula against humans than one usually sees on the net. (Usually, he seems to be used to screw up other celestials.) One technical point -- kidneys would be better than livers, because, unless some additional special effects are used, the businessmen won't survive the harvesting of their livers for any time worth mentioning. On the other hand, you can carve out a *chunk* of liver and the patient will live and even grow back the missing chunk. (A brother recently donated part of his liver to his brother who needed a transplant; the donor is now growing it back and the recipient is, I think, growing his chunk into a whole liver.) This regenerative capacity brings up a new wrinkle -- What if the same set of guys keep getting their livers harvested over and over? Perhaps Vapula uses this as a way of harvesting entire Corporeal Forces, which then grow back. The PCs might first notice something odd when stories begin to circulate about the bitter complaints of Mr. Businessman over getting harvested AGAIN. (Next plan -- renewable harvesting of Ethereal and Celestial Forces.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:41:24 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Playing chess with the Devil "Hart, Joanna" wrote: > >Re: Neel's idea on demons challenging their hellsworn soldiers to one last >game for their souls upon death. > >- -- > >Oddly enough, I did write up one example of a mummy who played chess once a >month with the Prince of the Game, on the understanding that if he won, he'd >be released from service and if he lost, he'd be destroyed. Irritatingly, >Asmodeus smugly stalemated him every single time, and thus kept him in >eternal servitude. But that was a special case. The Game is awfully >vindictive like that to special enemies. Was this Solomon? I saw that writeup either on your webpage or on this list, and I liked it enough to steal it and roll it into part of my campaign's backstory.... Some demons claim that God is dead. If they're of the Game, they claim He died in 587 B.C., when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple. This was all part of Asmodeus's master plan, of course -- he helped Solomon lay the foudations of the first temple, and after God graced it with His presence, he inspired the Babylonians to destroy it. (Of course, angels claim these particular demons are on crack.) >What I was going to ask was why the demons don't cheat :-) Who says they don't? After all, have you ever heard of a human winning, unless the demons want him to? And does that last game actually matter? ("I beat you -- I can't be in Hell!" "Too bad we lied, eh?") - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:26:55 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim I think the question of revenge is a bit more subtle than has been suggested in this thread...so I'm going to use this example to riff a bit on the etiquette of betrayal among the Fallen. I'll stick with the Balseraph and a Lilim, but I think this applies to most demons. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Is it that hideously easy for a Balseraph to rack up a lot of Geas that >>the Lilim must fulfill? > >Just remember that after a certain point (assuming that the Balseraph >has gotten her to *pledge* Geases), it becomes *cheaper* for the Lilim >to call for Mom and promise her a year or two to do something educational >to the Balseraph. > >Or else she starts doing stuff for the Bal -- like fulfilling Needs, >slams him with a mongo Song of Celestial Charm, and then the next >thing you know he's waiting tables in the Guildhall, wearing a >muzzle, for the next three years. It really depends a lot on who the Balseraph serves, doesn't it? After all, most demons have Princes who are much more active in the lives of their servitors than Lilith is in hers. Doing this sort of thing to one of their Servitors could cause them to lose face, since it implies that they can't even keep control over their own slaves. Sure, I can see this happening with a Balseraph serving one of the weaker or more disorganized Princes like Furfur or Haagenti, but if that Liar serves Baal or Asmodeus, then the Lilim had best smile and say thank you, at least when in public. And asking Lilith for help would likely just net some advice along the lines of "Choose your associates more carefully, next time," along with an offer to buy off the discord and dissonance, and a demand for payment for wasting her time. Most likely a private revenge, like having the Balseraph jumped in an alleyway, would be ignored, since it's not a direct slur on the Prince's own control. It could even be encouraged, since that's an act that gives them blackmail material on the Lilim in question: "Will you please confirm to the nice Asmodean Captain that you had nothing to do with the assault on the Balseraph Achmetha? No? Then I must say this looks very bad for you. But -- there are certain things you can do for us, to prove your loyalty." Of course, the relative ranks of the demons involved matters a lot, too -- suppose the Balseraph is very high-ranking and influential, and the Lilim is young and weak. Then if she blows the whistle on the Balseraph, her sisters will gain more by selling her out to the Balseraph to curry favor with him than they will by closing ranks. (Of course from then on they will be more cautious in their own dealings with the Balseraph, but will this mean they feel any gratitude towards the whistleblower? Not at all.) Even if the Balseraph is weaker than the Lilim, it pays to go for a quiet revenge -- other demons will judge how strong you are by seeing how strong those who defy you are. (After all, you defy a nominal superior only when you think you can get away with it.) Nonetheless, there will be times when the Lilim wants a loud payback.... Messy, public revenges are best suited for attempts to climb up the ladder -- it's a statement to the rest of the world that you are stronger than they think. It attracts attention, but then that's the point. The Lilim should just be very sure that she can deal with it. So a public revenge is worth it only if the Balseraph is just enough stronger than the Lilim that it's worth making others upgrade their assessment of her strength, and if the Balseraph is not well-connected enough that his suffering will not reflect badly on his associates. She must be careful, though -- Princes can and will stir themselves even for demons who are out of favor with them, because their treatment nonetheless reflects on him. This does the Balseraph no good, though: odds are the Prince will dispose of him shortly after dealing with the Lilim -- after all, he was incompetent enough that it required the Prince's personal attention to salvage matters, and Princes don't waste pity or Forces on liabilities. This is where Lilith comes in handy: a smart Lilim will get her mother to get the Prince to clear the punishment before moving. This is very expensive, since it involves two Demon Princes (Lilith and the other prince), and worse, it will draw both of their attentions to her. If the Balseraph in question is incompetent or actively working against his Prince's goals, or if it's possible to manufacture evidence proving this, then it's possible to clear her revenge with the Game. They will protect her from the Prince's wrath when she goes after the Balseraph in question: after all, she was just waxing a traitor. A terse telegram like "Lord Baal: Be advised Zina destroyed Achmetha on orders. Hence her termination is not advised at this date. -- A." won't keep her from drawing the attention of the Prince, but at least it will usually keep him from doing something about it. Upfront, this is much less expensive -- the Game won't usually ask for anything more than the evidence in exchange for its cooperation. If the Lilim does it too often, though, she may acquire a reputation for being a front for the Game, and that's bad: it can get her cut off from the gossip loop in a world where knowing the current rumors can spell the difference between a life of sybaritic luxury and a excruciatingly painful trip into oblivion. A very bold Lilim might take some (possibly faked) evidence of treachery on the Balseraph's part to its Prince, and offer to deal with the serpent for the Prince. This is very risky, but sometimes worth it: being able to publicly destroy an enemy /with the support of his Prince/ is a very strong statement of your influence. OTOH, it's possible that the Prince will choose to destroy the Balseraph personally, and destroy the Lilim to eliminate a leak. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:58:05 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphim and Lilim I agree with most of what you wrote on Princes not being very kindly to those who seek revenge on their servitors, but this only really works if we're dealing with a Free Lilim. Bounded Lilim have Superiors interested in them, and they are unlikely to just stand back and let their Lilim be used like this. After all, if word gets back to Lilith that something like this happened and that the Prince did nothing, well, I figure that Lilith will make him respect her daughters more. In some rare cases, I can see her invoking a Geas on that Prince to discipline the Balseraph that pulled this stunt. While the Prince may actually want to thank the Bal for doing this, (after all, I don't think Princes like being Geased any more than any other celestials) he's going to have to take appropriate action, which is bad news for the Bal. If the demons are working for the same Prince, then it's an internal matter and can be resolved the usual way. The Lilim taking on geases from her sisters not only gets her revenge, but probably a promotion too. It's probably worth it. Just my thoughts, S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:33:57 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Oh no, not more lemmings! ------ 10:25PM GMT --------- NEWS FLASH ---------- 10:25PM GMT ------ After several days of rumours VOL has confirmed it is to buy Netscape Communications COMMA creators of the Navigator browser and the Netcenter Web site for just over GBP 2.5 billion STOP ----------- END FLASH ---------- "Yes, Sir. I saw the report. Yes, I recognised the name. Yes. Yes. Yes!" He put his hand over the mouthpiece of the mobile phone and motioned to a colleague, mouthing, 'It's Him!' "I still don't know how they did it, Sir. The routers were down. I don't know what the hell kind of backup they've been using .. err.. if you'll excuse the idiom." There was a pause. The distorted buzzing of a calm voice itemising comments on the far end. The man paled. and slowly pulled the phone away from an ear, closing it up like an oyster. He sat for a moment in silence, eyes closed. "Mr. Ostry," he said softly without opening them, "We're in trouble." - --- The jaws of the briefcase snapped together with a professional clunk, and a manicured finger span the combination to set the lock. As the owner stood, white-garbed paramedics snapped to attention. At the hint of a beckoning gesture, another figure tried to pull its shoulders back and collected an insulated coolbox. A monitor in the corner flickered green on black, except in the centre where a brightly coloured browser window was displayed. In it, a magnified image of a human eye. "Gentlemen," said the baron, "I am pleased with your progress. I shall have a message sent down to Tartarus to inform the program manager that phase 2+ is ready for testing." - --- Mediterranean moonlight played through the shutters. Whitewashed walls, dim in the gloom. A soft night breeze set motes of dust to dancing in its beams. The distant sounds of Athenian traffic buzzed in a low baritone to which the whining of a slow ceiling fan sang counterpoint. An untidy bedroom in a cramped apartment. A woman on the verge of sleep twitched, blinking towards wakefulness. She inhaled sharply. Her husband grumbled drowsily and moved closer. Instinctively she murmured that he should go back to sleep, that she had only skipped a heartbeat, that she'd had erratic pulses since childhood. Surely he must remember. Surely she had told him this before. Insects chirruped against the eaves. She settled closer to him and closed her eyes. When she was six, she dimly remembered before sleep claimed her, she'd had her appendix out. She dreamed about the hospital. It was a nightmare. - -- A yawning figure jumped to attention as the telex machine wiggled a tentacle and clicked into life. It bent a horned head across the output, furled leathery wings with excitement and ripped off the paper strip with the message attached. "Message for the Duke. All systems are go!" - -- - -- BEGIN VIDEO REPORT -- [A small dark-haired demoness speaks the voice-over to the carefully selected images] So what IS the secret of the Vapulan network? Everyone knows that standard electrical and telecomms networks are vulnerable to Lightning. In fact, they are practically begging to be infiltrated by angels who want to prove their hacking skills or just to irritate by sending high-voltage pulses down particularly useful traffic lines. So Vapula initiated projects a long time ago to create a communications network that would be a little more robust than mere copper, glass and electronics. After all, any old archangel of lightning can create a telecomms network with copper. Where's the challenge in that? Early on, another transport mechanism was identified. Another set of systems existed which could carry a current and signal in pulses. - -- FACT -- The human nervous system runs on tiny electrical impulses. - -- END FACT -- And the best thing about the network is that no angels have ever infiltrated or cracked into it. Obviously a sign that yet again, infernal genius foils humdrum angelic imaginations! Another advantage is that humans are much cheaper than copper. A third is that they are plentiful and disposable, which makes for plenty of redundancy. Particularly key trunk routers can be selected for special protection by assigning Djinn as appropriate. Various selected mortals function as repeaters, amplifiers, routers and flow control for the Vapulan packet radio system. Aided by just a smigeon of infernal technology and by various treated organs or implants, a fully functional information network has been in place since the 1950 which spans the globe. Admittedly, it was only completed last year when America was properly brought online -- allegedly demons in that continent ran dangerously close to Not Meeting Their Deadline (again). Now for the next big step. To use the mundane telecomms networks to carry infernal information transparently. High level negotiations with Theft were concluded happily some decades ago with Valefor assigning Nikator, his chief of aquisitions in Geneva (the same demon who has agents on the floors of all the major stock exchanges and on the board of the world bank), to begin sucking up investments on behalf of Technology in order to acquire telecomms information providers for the joint venture. Unfortunately, Nikator assumed that Technology would have got its act together in America first (bad mistake) and ended up with AOL, nicknamed VOL by thieves and other such scum everywhere. He claims that it was simply foresight and now it has paid off. With the acquisition of Netscape, this Theft-Tech joint venture is about to shift into overdrive. Infernal forces are engineering subliminals into their new browsers to add a layer of programmability into what is going to be known as --- the Intelligent Network (or IN). Routers will soon be programmable via line-of-sight, straight into the brainstems. And you heard it here first, on 'Infernal Technology Today' - -- END VIDEO REPORT -- jo Bringing you tomorrow's news. Today. ps. If you think this is bad, be glad I didn't go into details of the antennae, which need to be extensible when the signals are to be boosted, but fold away when not in use so as not to attract attention -- hmm. I wonder which part of the human body might be adaptable to _that_ requirement? And come to think of it, maybe the real reason that that Nazi salute involve raising an arm really was just to boost the reception... pps. Yes, of course Tech has an interest in Microsoft/ IE as well, but that is being sponsored by a different project and unfortunately the project managers arent on speaking terms. (I'm sure this sort of thing _never_ happens in the real world!) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1023 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.