From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 2 07:02:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20442 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:02:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA13100 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:19:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:19:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199812021219.GAA13100@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1031 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1031 In this digest: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> The College of Saints IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1030 Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel IN> Dominic, Eli and Michael IN> Atheists in IN Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Atheists in IN Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Laurence's Chin Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: IN> Laurence's Chin IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Pandora's box Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Pandora's box Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Judging a Word competition ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:06:53 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) > Ars Magica renewed my faith in game design... Plus it > had a ROCKIN' world. Of course, one of the best worlds I've > every seen (KULT) had, at best, a kludgy system best left > unmentioned. Me too. I highly recommend Ars Magica simply for the read. That and Over the Edge. As for KULT - John, I figured it out. See, the _system_ is part of the horror. It's so frightening, so terrifying, so awfully nasty that when you see it you begin to break the Illusion. You try to roll a d20 and you look up and there's this grinning Lictor standing right over you. Luckily, it converts fairly smoothly to Call of Cthulhu. If you can't beat it, convert it. > Heh. I'd put the top five In Nomine writers against > 99.99% of the people who write for a living in Hollyweird. Surely > we could do better, yes? The best idea I ever heard for repairing the Revelations Cycle in one huge swoop is to have the entire thing on a Nybbas Movie Set. Then not only can there be huge plotholes and things that don't make sense, but there can be outtakes, coffee breaks, and the like. I thought it was a pretty funny idea. Probably good enough to play. The PCs just get to be the main NPCs.... "Places everyone!" [That was probably posted here, I bet. So whosever idea it was, it's keener then soup.] - - Em Current Quote: Em says "Daimon is one of those people who do not remember the 60's. He remembers the dire specter of Andre crawling up his leg with a knife in his teeth chanting pudding one night in 1967, but that's about it." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:39:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > The argument of why there should be no fluffy Princes at all is that it > negates the argument for why one needs a Heaven in the first place. " Heaven and the Angels are creations of God. Some angels chose to rebel, and were rightly cast out. They created others of their kind, to spread their perversion of reality. Now, irrespective of how nice or nasty they are, how selfish or unselfish they are, and whether I like them or not, they are wrong, and if I cannot redeem them I will kill them. This is my Oath. " If this makes me cruel, then so be it. I do not care if you think I am a fanatic. I do not care if you think I am wrong. Just don't get in my way." Someone can be pure, and utterly true to their nature, without being entirely good or entirely evil. I see In Nomine as being about 'natures' as much as 'morality'. There can be Demon Princes who are slightly fluffy, because there are Archangels who are complete bastards, who can see through the top layer and believe that just because Lilith often chooses to play fair, doesn't mean she isn't evil, and certainly doesn't negate the fact that she is in constant open rebellion against God. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:59:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The College of Saints Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > I heard a story of a saint who had been said to wander east. > At the time of Gengis Khan some europeans thought that Gengis´ men > were the decendants of that lost saint. Im not sure if he was > called James though. Anyone heard of this? St. Thomas is supposed to have made missionary journeys to India, and there are Indian churches that claim him as their founder. This James is supposed to have died a martyr in Jerusalem. The other James is supposed to have died in Spain. So my guess is that it is Thomas you are thinking of. > Whatabout Gandhi? Sure, why not? I believe "Heaven and Hell" describes how authors through the ages have populated Heaven with people they considered worthy, and mentioned Dante's inclusion of his old girlfriend Beatrice among the blessed. > Again, Father Christmas. I like that. Are these elves Ethereal > Spirits? Like the ones from Norse or Celtic myth? Yes, according to "The Marches," the elves and other fays of European myth are Ethereal spirits. The evil Unseelie Court is under the protection of Beleth of Nightmare. Nicholas pre-dates Uriel's Purge of the Ethereals, and so could have joined with Blandine in trying to protect the benevolent Ethereals. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:23:41 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1030 > The Holy Innocents -- > > These were the baby boys (up to two years old) slaughtered in Bethlehem > at the orders of King Herod in his effort to kill the infant Christ. > They are probably allied with Christopher and St. Nicholas. Maybe also > with Gabriel in punishing the cruel. Finally Father Christmas is introduced. Ive always wanted to have him in a game setting.. Isn't Santa Claus [Other than being Saint Nicholas] Just a collection of Christopher's Malakim. After all he Knows when you've been bad, he knows when you've been good? Adam How Many Archangels does it take to change a Lightbulb? Answer: Three, One to accuse the light bulb of favouring the dark, One to violently object to the persecution of an innocent light bulb and Dominic to instruct a Malkim of Jean to deal with the light bulb as it has obviously fallen into darkness.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:12:29 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel At 04:48 PM 12/1/98 , Rob wrote: >In Nomine Time Travel anybody? and if any >of the AA's know how to travel through time, Jean would be the one. > I was thinking recently of Jean and the changes he must have made to his operations in the twentieth century (for example many of his servitors' attunements wouldn't have had meaning until the 20thC- telephones? circuit boards?). I drew up a few plans for a pre-20th C. Jean. In a time-travel campaign, or simply one set in the past, it would be interesting to work with the differences in politics, power structures and activities of angels/demons. And for knowledgable players, running into servitors of such a familiar AA who have remarkably different abilities (probably related more to Lightning) would be an exciting affair. If you're interested, I put some of the write-up on my site (address at the end of the mail). Pete peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk Habbalah of Kobal, in service to the Demon of Critics http://www.kobal.demon.co.uk/backdoor.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > > Heh. I'd put the top five In Nomine writers against > >99.99% of the people who write for a living in Hollyweird. Surely > >we could do better, yes? > > > > > You'd think. Well, that's exactly the difference, isn't it? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:09:26 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Peter Witney wrote: > If you're interested, I put some of the write-up on my site (address at the > end of the mail). > > http://www.kobal.demon.co.uk/backdoor.html I'm very interested, but that address doesn't seem to work. :( Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:58:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic, Eli and Michael >>>Dominic seems to think that Eli, and possibly Michael, are evil.<<< Incorrect. Dominic suspects Eli of heresy that might lead him to Fall (or cause other angels to Fall); not the same as believing he is evil. As for Michael, Dominic is not hostile to Michael. Dominic long ago _accepted_ God's pardon of Michael. Michael is the one who still holds a grudge. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:03:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Atheists in IN >>>I'm not entirely convinced of this in the case of Khalid, but that reflects my view as a thoroughgoing agnostic. I think the atheists have put their faith in something (even if it is nothing), and, depending on the circumstances, I find it either cute or annoying when they insist that they haven't.<<< Ah, well, as a former agnostic who now accepts the label "atheist" though my views haven't really changed, I think you're failing to distinguish between a _lack_ of belief in something, and a belief in a negative. Some atheists subscribe to the latter (which is faith, of a sort), but many (like myself) fit into the former category. In other words, I do not believe there is a God. I do not state as a certainty that there is no God. It's subtle difference, but a significant one. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 19:09 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) >I'm not sure GURPS is a good comparison... there are scads of books for it >out there, and I too have a nearly-gluttonous collection of such. >However, they are for such a vast array of different genres that I >couldn't imagine wanting to use all of them at once Where do you think GURPS IOU came from...? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 19:20 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... >> On the other hand, as a gamer, I don't want a game where I *need* 10 >> books, either.... > >So why would anyone continue to purchase In Nomine supplements? By that >logic, no one should ever buy a supplement again because they are totally >unneccessary. If no one wants them, and the _writers_ don't even use >them, why should there be any more? I didn't say I *never* used them. Though I probably haven't actually used more than about 20% of them. And I do buy some stuff I probably won't ever use more than once (GURPS Ice Age comes to mind...). >The books should be optional when playing, but there should at least be >some value in the other nine which are sitting on the shelf. There is *some* value in them, but it's mostly inspirational, or in very infrequent use (like once or twice). Other people may routinely use some of the ones I don't -- there are a lot of genres I avoid that are fairly popular (supers and horror, for the most obvious examples). My collection is partly large simply because I'm a playtester and sometimes writer, and one needs a lot of the books to do that effectively. And partly because most of them are better written and better researched than most RPG books, and few of them will be reprinted - -- if I decide I *want* one, I won't be able to go down and buy it. And partly because I'm a collector... get the behind me, Haagenti! (On second thought, that's probably too close....) >> Frankly, I don't think very many gaming products would *ever* meet such >> a stringent test. Partly it's due to Sturgeon's Law, and partly to the >> fact that a truly *inspired* product only comes along once a decade or >> so in a given industry. Not to mention that people's reactions to >> "inspired" products ranges rather widely -- they tend to inspire >> polarized feelings, as well. Either you love them, or you hate them.... > >No, I don't see any _GURPS_ gaming products which will fit that test. I >never have. And I'm on the other pole of that polarization. Which I knew.... >On the other hand, there are several other games, and this is hardly once >in a decade. I can look at my bookshelves, and I know I'm a picky gamer, >and I can see games which have something to them which made them worthy in >some way - KULT, OTE, Cthulhu, Nephilim, Amber, Shades of Destiny/Shades >of Nightfall, Armageddon and Witchcraft, even HOL to some extent because >at least it has a very definite soul. I've even started looking through >the WW: Mage stuff, just because the main sourcebook has something there. And many of those are on my list of stuff I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Different people like different stuff. The only one of those I consider interesting is Amber, mostly because it took a new approach to mechanics. Some of the rest I lump under "hopeless angst" and ignore. OTE may have something to it, but I'm only marginally familiar with it. Some of the others I'm totally unfamiliar with. >So what is the IN excuse for putting out lackluster, and occasionally >poor, supplements? That everything in the industry sucks so it's okay? That not everyone thinks the same things are poor. >That no one has the time? That there is some hairy monster with a red pen >who crosses out every inspired concept that comes along? The problem is >that the brilliance is right there under the surface, wanting to get out >if someone is just willing to suck up the fact that someone out there will >say "I don't like this" and just DO it. Well, you *have* been saying "I don't like this".... >I would rather hate it or love it, instead of the all over, across the >board blah. I would rather get excited about it. But right now, there's >not a heck of alot to get excited about. For you, anyway. And I'm beginning to suspect there probably won't be. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 19:27 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) >I have to agree with this. Most of the stuff in most of the supplements >have been, well, bland. There's none of that "Gosh wow, that's really >-cool-!"-feeling, that at least I got a touch of from the main book. It >feels like SJG decided that they took all the risks they dare to with the >main book, and now they're just plodding along instead of exploring. Actually, knowing some of the inside of the story of what goes on inside SJGames, I don't think that's what happened at all. In fact, a lot of what happened in the Cycle books was plotted way back when the main book was done. (Not so much the Superiors, but the adventures.) And it was all done to one vision. The actual writing, of course, was split up among a lot of people. And that had some problems, for sure. But I'm reasonably certain there was no policy of "dumbing down" In Nomine in any way. In fact, I know that SJ *likes* "controversial" things, nor is he particularly worried about offending people. Whatever happened, it's not that. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 01:25:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Atheists in IN On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > Ah, well, as a former agnostic who now accepts the label "atheist" though > my views haven't really changed, I think you're failing to distinguish > between a _lack_ of belief in something, and a belief in a negative. Agnostics do have a firm belief in something - they firmly believe that true belief in God can only conceivably come from revelation rather than everyday observation, (and that they have never had such a revelation). At least, that is pretty much what Thomas Huxley meant when he invented the word to describe himself. It literally means something like 'lack of knowledge', or 'lack of enlightenment'. Such a person might not necessarily offend a non-rag-headed version of Khalid, since it doesn't automatically imply lack of any faith. Huxley, for example, had a lot of faith in Darwin, and was his biggest defender. Someone who has simply failed to come to a conclusion, as opposed to someone who refuses to do so, is commonly called a 'fence-sitter', 'one of the flock', or 'essence-bag' by politicians, priests, and Imps respectively :-) Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:43:41 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Em wrote: > > On the other hand, as a gamer, I don't want a game where I *need* 10 > > books, either.... > > So why would anyone continue to purchase In Nomine supplements? By that > logic, no one should ever buy a supplement again because they are totally > unneccessary. If no one wants them, and the _writers_ don't even use > them, why should there be any more? I think you confused the word *need* with *want* up there. I don't want a game system where I HAVE to buy every book, either. I may like them and want to, but if I'm forced to, I'm going to switch game systems. Apart from that, I agree with the rest of what you say. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:53:39 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Walter wrote: > Where do you think GURPS IOU came from...? Shameless self plug, Walter? *grin* Leath (who just finished re-reading IOU). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:53:39 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Joanna wrote: > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. In fairness, you can hardly thank SJG for the inspired work of Discworld. Thank Terry Pratchett instead. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:58:38 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Laurence's Chin I just got FT [I'll post a review of it a little later when I'm done reading it] and I have to ask... This question has been bugging me for hours.... What is the deal with Laurence's Chin? Does he have this huge profound chin? Or is it a Tick-like chin? Or is it very sturdy and manly? Is it one of those chins that you just see and you say, "My God, that's Laurence!" I will not be able to sleep until I either take more happy drugs or this matter of universal importance is settled! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:12:25 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Emily K. Dresner wrote: > What is the deal with Laurence's Chin? > > Does he have this huge profound chin? Or is it a Tick-like chin? Or is > it very sturdy and manly? Is it one of those chins that you just see and > you say, "My God, that's Laurence!" Uh, oh; his secret is out. Al Gore is really a vessel of Dominic. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:28:09 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > What is the deal with Laurence's Chin? > > Does he have this huge profound chin? Or is it a Tick-like chin? Or is > it very sturdy and manly? Is it one of those chins that you just see and > you say, "My God, that's Laurence!" > > I will not be able to sleep until I either take more happy drugs or this > matter of universal importance is settled! > Of COURSE he has an immense chin. You can't recognize him because of it, though. Just think of it like Batman's chin in the animated series. Everyone SHOULD recognize that only Bruce Wayne and Batman have cinderblocks implanted in their head, but nobody does. Jason all heroes do ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:53:41 -0600 From: shadow-puppet@juno.com (The Shadow Puppet) Subject: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Well, it seems like this topic has started to drift a touch whilst I've been slaving away in retail holiday hell, but I just wanted to chip in my pair o' pennies before the thread vanished for good. During the recent discussion about the relative moral nastiness of the various demon princes, it occurs to me that Saminga has been mentioned time and again as the demonic extreme of "Unquestionably Evil." It furthermore occurs to me that in EVERY SINGLE In Nomine source publication, Saminga is mentioned time and again as the demonic extreme of "Unquestionably Stupid." Coincidence? Methinks not. It's the cunning and wisdom of the so-called "nicer" princes that keeps their evil more subtle, more insidious. After all, Saminga's not trusted by any of his infernal colleagues, likely because his goals and methods are too publicly known. Nybbas, on the other hand, has a grin and a glad hand (not to mention Fifteen Minutes of Fame) to hand out to everyone he meets. Meanwhile, unseen behind the static-filled shades, his smile never reaches his sinister, calculating eyes ... TheShadowPuppet. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I feed on the flesh of the living ... and I vote! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:24:26 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes At 23:53 12/1/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, it seems like this topic has started to drift a touch whilst I've >been slaving away in retail holiday hell, but I just wanted to chip in my >pair o' pennies before the thread vanished for good. > >During the recent discussion about the relative moral nastiness of the >various demon princes, it occurs to me that Saminga has been mentioned >time and again as the demonic extreme of "Unquestionably Evil." > >It furthermore occurs to me that in EVERY SINGLE In Nomine source >publication, Saminga is mentioned time and again as the demonic extreme >of "Unquestionably Stupid." > >Coincidence? Methinks not. > >It's the cunning and wisdom of the so-called "nicer" princes that keeps >their evil more subtle, more insidious. After all, Saminga's not trusted >by any of his infernal colleagues, likely because his goals and methods >are too publicly known. Nybbas, on the other hand, has a grin and a glad >hand (not to mention Fifteen Minutes of Fame) to hand out to everyone he >meets. Meanwhile, unseen behind the static-filled shades, his smile never >reaches his sinister, calculating eyes ... > It;s also the whole question of PR. for instance nybbas has the best PR people on staff while Saminga....well ever since that black plague thing death hasn't been that high in the exit polls. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:22:20 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin At 20:28 12/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > >> What is the deal with Laurence's Chin? >> >> Does he have this huge profound chin? Or is it a Tick-like chin? Or is >> it very sturdy and manly? Is it one of those chins that you just see and >> you say, "My God, that's Laurence!" >> >> I will not be able to sleep until I either take more happy drugs or this >> matter of universal importance is settled! >> > > >Of COURSE he has an immense chin. You can't recognize him because of it, >though. Just think of it like Batman's chin in the animated series. >Everyone SHOULD recognize that only Bruce Wayne and Batman have >cinderblocks implanted in their head, but nobody does. > >Jason > all heroes do > > anyone ever read groo? c'mon that is so true about the chins look at any srgio aragones cartoon(he writes for mad magazine or at least he did back in the day) he is a major comic satirist and any hero has a huge chin. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:31:41 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) At 10:53 AM 12/1/98 +0100, you wrote: >I think we're talking two different kinds of "Good" here, or at least I >am, I've realized. One is the Symphony's, or God's view - from His POV all >the AA:s are really good, or they wouldn't stay AA:s, I think. His >intervention in Michael's trial is an example of this. > >The other definition of "Good" is ours, as players. I don't think all AA:s >have to meet my standards for Good and all DP:s my standards for Evil in a >campaign that I run or play in. Thank you, I agree. I think any AA's or DP's that aren't good or evil respectively will be discovered and ousted/destroyed as soon as possible. For individual angels and demons, however, I think there's even more discretion, and I wouldn't be too surprised to find one or two angels that seemed more evil than good, or demons that seemed more good than evil. For example, a Malakite would never fall no matter how much evil he commits (although he would get more and more discord), so an evil Malakite is not too hard to fathom. Similarly, many demons can avoid dissonance through loopholes that don't necessarily require them to be evil. For example, an Impudite may use his soul-sucking ability only on people he thinks deserves it. A servitor of Saminga can practice killing criminals. I often use the "Tales From the Crypt" style of horror in games where the PCs are the bad guys, where the ones they maim and kill are often worse than the villainous PCs. In these comics, all of the monsters enacted poetic justice on seriously flawed humans, not innocents. I'm not saying there shouldn't be truly heroic angels or truly malevolent and horrifying demons, and I think there should be a lot more of this type. I just think that a few demons and angels could slip through the cracks if they maintain a low enough profile. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:34:52 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: IN> Pandora's box this is not exactly an in nomine based thing but in nomine is in many ways a morality based game and this is sort of a moral issue. In the of pandora's box pandora is given this box of stuff and is told not to open it. She does and all these negative emotion type things are released into the world. She then closes the box and hope is kept inside. This seemed kind of odd to me. I mean why was hope, this thing always spoken of as good, in with all of these negative things. Then my thought was that perhaps hope truly belonged with these negative emotions. Hope in and of itself can be a terrible thing. If one hopes too much then one doesn't move forward and can fail because they hoped for too much from the universe. What do people think of this issue? This could be interesting in in nomine as a possible issue of destiny. Perhaps an elohite serving Yves who killed peoples hopes so they could move on. Odd issue Ben, Cherub of destiny and happy friend of Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:44:12 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) At 03:06 PM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> Ars Magica renewed my faith in game design... Plus it >> had a ROCKIN' world. Of course, one of the best worlds I've >> every seen (KULT) had, at best, a kludgy system best left >> unmentioned. > >Me too. I highly recommend Ars Magica simply for the read. That and Over >the Edge. > >As for KULT - John, I figured it out. See, the _system_ is part of the >horror. It's so frightening, so terrifying, so awfully nasty that when >you see it you begin to break the Illusion. You try to roll a d20 and you >look up and there's this grinning Lictor standing right over you. > >Luckily, it converts fairly smoothly to Call of Cthulhu. If you can't >beat it, convert it. Has anyone else on the list checked out the Planescape setting for AD&D? Very easily converted to another system, and I think it has some interesting takes on issues similar to those in IN. I'm currently about to start working on conversions between IN and PS. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:45:04 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Pandora's box Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > This could be interesting in in nomine as a possible issue of destiny. > Perhaps an elohite serving Yves who killed peoples hopes so they could move > on. Odd issue Maybe a Demon of Daydreams - almost certainly Beleth or Kronos, though I'm not certain which yet, and I'm uncertain as to the Band - who fostered hopes and dreams in the knowledge that the more time someone spends thinking about their Destiny, the less time they have to achieve it. Probably a standby demon, one who is brought in when other methods fail, and almost definitely working in league with someone whose job it is to use the victim's hopes to guide him to his Fate. "I had such high hopes, such dreams - and now they're shattered. What's the point now?" > Ben, Cherub of destiny and happy friend of Perry EDG, Mercurian of Jean, roommate of Ben and unhappy friend of Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:58:48 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... > some of the ones I don't -- there are a lot of genres I avoid that are > fairly popular (supers and horror, for the most obvious examples). :) The funny thing is, those are the two genres I've most seen IN compared to. (Mind you, I don't agree with those comparisons myself. I've played some horror roleplaying, but I never got into comic books and don't see the appeal that many do for supers roleplaying.0 - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) > Has anyone else on the list checked out the Planescape setting for AD&D? > Very easily converted to another system, and I think it has some > interesting takes on issues similar to those in IN. I'm currently about to > start working on conversions between IN and PS. I've looked at it... though my first instinct wouldn't be to try to cross it over with IN. IN's cosmology is too well defined to merge easily with Planescape. If you can do it, more power to you! (Personlly, I've never fully seen the attraction that many seem to have for doing IN crossovers with other games, particularly other supernatural games which have their own cosmology and mythos. What would attract me more would not be so much a "crossover" as it would be using other source matieral for mundanes and soldiers.) I've not run (or played) Planescape, but if I did it would be under GURPS rules. (Like many non-AD&D players, I have serious issues with the AD&D rules; I haven't even read the 2nd edition, but I don't think it fixed most of my issues.) I know that there are some who abhor the Planescape setting, but I think it's interesting. The only thing that bugs me about it is that the (stilted) AD&D alignment system comes through just a little too clearly. IMHO, you don't need alignments at all to have Planescape make sense. However, some of the character of the border towns is a little too one-dimensional, screaming out their alignments. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 07:09:28 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) At 12:53 02/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Joanna wrote: > >> be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have >> and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. > >In fairness, you can hardly thank SJG for the inspired work of >Discworld. Thank Terry Pratchett instead. > It was still a good translation into a RPG supplement, cf I quite liked Babylon 5 but the RPG is dreadful. So I'll acknowledge Phil Masters too! :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:24:41 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Okay, it seems to me that Good and Evil need to be defined. To me (and the definition I use for AD&D's alignment) is that Good means placing intrinsic value on the rights and well-being of others. Evil, then, means the opinion that valuing the rights and well-being of others is actually wrong, and their rights are merely obstacles to overcome in getting more power for yourself. This definition also seems to be supported by IN. However, there is a seperate definition, too. Good, in IN, also means in accordance with the Symphony of God, and Evil means against the Symphony. I'm not so sure these two are mutually inclusive. Lilith, for example, does seem to place intrinsic value on the rights of others, and some angels really don't. Whether someone is a demon or an angel seems to depend more on whether or not God likes them for whatever reason. And He has varied tastes, ranging from Dominic to Eli, Michael to Novalis. He also has a wide range of dislikes, judging from the DPs. From the opening story in IN, it appears obvious to me that angels can and do find loopholes to weasel around gaining dissonance, following the letter of the law instead of the intent. For example, Nicole commanding her servant to kill the betrayer. The intent was still the same (the death of the human), just not the action. So angels don't always seem to want to be "good." I think the same holds true for demons. I'm sure many of them wonder why they have to be such jerks all the time. Wouldn't they get more people to their side if they emphasized the positive aspects of denying the symphony? The problem is, Lucifer is running the show. Not only does God not like Lucifer, but he is also completely Evil in any sense of the word. He keeps his demons also evil by threats of force. This probably keeps the demons from actually gaining any ground. By acting stereotypically evil, it's difficult for them to accomplish as much as they could with more variety. I'm also sure that many angels have wondered why Heaven hasn't just invaded Hell and finished off all the demons once and for all. Just what is God up to, anyway? Here's a thought: what if Lucifer isn't as distant from God as everybody thinks. Lucifer's commands of evil may be a part of God's plan to keep the demons from gaining any ground. Maybe Lucifer still takes his orders from the head honcho. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 07:30:32 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... At 22:58 01/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >> some of the ones I don't -- there are a lot of genres I avoid that are >> fairly popular (supers and horror, for the most obvious examples). > >:) The funny thing is, those are the two genres I've most seen IN compared >to. > >(Mind you, I don't agree with those comparisons myself. Oh, I can see it very easily. You could see the PCs as superpowered vigilantes, running round in super-teams to either defend the innocent from the evil superbaddies, or do supervillain things. Similarly for the horror; the PCs are chasing down Things Which Mortals Were Not Meant To Know (or else _are_ twmwnmtk). I'm curious though (can't tell who wrote the original post here. Walter?) If you don't like Supers or Horror type games, then what _did_ attract you to IN? Do you still see it in the supplements? jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:46:56 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Jo Hart wrote: > > At 12:53 02/12/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Joanna wrote: > > > >> be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > >> and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. > > > >In fairness, you can hardly thank SJG for the inspired work of > >Discworld. Thank Terry Pratchett instead. > > > > It was still a good translation into a RPG supplement, cf I quite liked > Babylon 5 but the RPG is dreadful. So I'll acknowledge Phil Masters too! :) > > jo Y'know, I only had one problem with the book. Carrot only had a +3 charisma. witht he sort of things he's been able to do, I would have given him that Cultural Adaptability advantage and a +5 charisma instead of +3... - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:08:48 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) > >Note that I said "probably the least evil", not "not very evil". None >of the Princes are what I'd call nice.... > >> I always saw him as one of the nastiest; and the other princes >>should be more worried about him than they currently are > >He's certainly subtle, and anyone who can jump from minor Servitor to >Prince in one step is someone to be careful of. Lucifer had to have a >reason for promoting him.... > That may be because he will be promoting the use of the VapuTech Industries 'SmartCard (tm)'. You know, that nifty little i.d./credit widget with a 666 in each and every one ;). (I've yet to think of how he's going to spin-doctor the Rapture though) ;) - -- Julian - Demon of 'Pay Per View' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:19:20 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Judging a Word competition Hi, In my current Demonic campaign, I've got a Word competition about to end. All the participants had to do, was to further the Word and do it better than the others, but there wasn't a clear set of achievements that they could be judged by. Which leads to the question: how could you tell who had won? First of all, you need spies watching the contenders; but you also need to debrief them at the end of the contest, and being demons, they'll lie through their teeth. My solution? Remember that angels of Purity cannot fall... Lucifer has, somewhere, a captive Seraph of Purity he keeps for exactly these purposes. It can't Fall, even though it's been corrupted and tainted by probably centuries of servitude to evil, and is otherwise a pitiful sight. It probably has lots of Corporeal Discord, of the horribly disfiguring type, but no Ethereal or Celestial - because that would interfere with its usefulness. Can you imagine what it's like, to be an angel serving Lucifer, constantly accumulating taint and pain, and equally regularly being brought closer to Purity - not by anything like enough, but by enough for it to be meaningful - by Satan Himself? It would be enough for most angels to go mad, to lose themselves in denial, and to Fall - except that angels of Purity *can't* fall. The Word, BTW, was Jingles (as in advertising). The contestants were: 1) A Haballah of Nightmares, working in an old people's home. Every time a certain advert is on the TV, she will trigger Fear in a specific person - each one has their own "favourite" jingle - and then banish it with a soothing gesture and a quiet word. They all know that, as long as Nurse is there, everything will be all right - but what if she isn't? The panic attacks will start lasting longer and longer - and then one day she'll leave... 2) A Shedite of Gluttony. He will single out people walking a set route, hopefully past a fast food outlet with a distinctive theme tune, and have people around them coincidentally sing, whistle or hum the tune. He then possesses his target, makes him go in, then leaves him again. Repeat this day after day, and he'll have created a pattern of conditioning that can be triggered in an instant. 3) A Balseraph of Technology, selling pagers. These pagers are special: first of all, the service is free. It has the ability to have new jingles downloaded into it, which means it can be used for advertising and/or playing brief snippets of hit singles. All of which can be sold as features you want, making you aware of what's going on; and after all, it's a small price to pay for an unlimited pager service. The catch, though, is that the beep it makes (it doesn't have a vibrate mode) consistently changes, which means that after a while, *whenever* a jingle goes off in a public place, people will start looking for their pagers. Just goes to prove that Words can easily be held by demons you might not have though of. (The previous holder of the word was a fairly straightforward Media demon.) Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1031 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.