From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 4 14:15:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02578 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:15:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA19730 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:01:22 -0600 Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:01:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199812042001.OAA19730@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1036 In this digest: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... IN> Justice Re: IN> Questions Re: IN> Game Mechanics Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Humans Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Justice Re: IN> Questions Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim IN> The Open Directory Project needs your links Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:59:44 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 07:23:38PM -0500, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > my take on horror is that it can be very fun if done properly. Being > scared out of your wits may not be fun necessaily but dealing with death is > one way to reaffirm life and i can tell you after being in an absolutely > terrifying game you feel so alive. I tend to agree. The most intense roleplaying experience I ever had was in a game of Paranoia last summer. We had to get a corridor repainted black without acknowledging in any way that it had been painted white by accident (and of course having no way of procuring black paint), _and_ we were simultaneously supposed to be doing a mission Outside. I remember at one point all the players were whimpering. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:43:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Kenneth Winland wrote: > For obvious reasons, I think you could class in as "horror". I've seen the Sandman Graphic novels classed as Horror aswell, even though I dont think its entirely appropriate. Actually, I always though of In Nomine as a bit Neil Gaimanish, even though I couldnt fit the Endless into the Setting. Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:14:31 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Justice (There's likely some summary in here, so scuse me not referencing original writers if I grab something you said. I haven't been reading quite that closely) What is Judgement? - -- Main Entry: judg$B!&(Jment(J Variant(s): or judge$B!&(Jment /'j&j-m&nt/(J Function: noun 1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion 3 a capitalized : the final judging of mankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God 4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing - -- Most simply, judgement is when someone considers something and sorts it into one of two categories (namely 'good' or 'bad') and then acts accordingly. Angels of judgement are particularly concerned with ensuring that all angels are toeing the line on the current divine version of 'good,' and that 'bad' actions, decisions or thoughts should carry appropriate consequences for the perpetrator. Often this will happen without celestial intervention. It is the cases in which it wouldn't or doesn't that Dominic is most likely to send angels to lend natural justice a hand. Angels who deal more with mortal issues are keen to also encourage mortals to develop a fine-honed sense of judgement (ie. the ability to distinguish between good and bad, preferably for the right reasons). By this definition they might be interested in critics of all colours, as well as judges, theologians NB. There is a wide gap between activities covered by Judgement, and activities covered by the Inquisition. Judgement is a MUCH wider word, but it seems that Dominic is much more obsessed with his inquisitorial and counter-espionage duties -- he'd probably be a lot happier if he felt able to find time for other things too. He's been rather caught in the Magician's Nephew trap of saying 'Mine is a high and lonely destiny, little sister.' -- so now he and his inquisition must become the truest and most unswerving judges in heaven, because it is the only way to justify the amount of pain his activities can cause. In the same way that his angels are required to have blind faith in their superior and the laws (code of laws if you are like me and into such things) which he sponsors, he has to have blind faith that if his direction were wrong, God would personally correct him. The inquisition _must_ be right. He _must_ be forwarding the divine will. It has to be his article of faith, the one certainty which makes all the pain and aggravation worthwhile. This is why accusing the inquisition of unfairness is something which might be a major heresy if you can't back it up. What is Justice? - -- Main Entry: jus$B!&(Jtice(J Pronunciation: 'j&s-t&s Function: noun 1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments - -- Good question. Jurists have been arguing this for ages. See the problem? Justice is probably when people who do what you consider to be bad get punishments which you consider to be fair[1]. It can be rather subjective, whereas everyone can agree when a judgement has been made (even if they don't agree with it). Notions of Justice also vary a lot with historical period and local culture. (They're usually codified into the local legal system -- in a cannibalistic society, eating someone is not a crime if you do it under the correct circumstances.) If we assume that divine justice is: a) Sometimes ineffable b) Just in a consistent and powerful way which would be clear to anyone who had the overall perspective ... then you can't always rely on individuals to use their own judgement to further this. Hence a need for some codified laws, handed down from God via Dominic (or whoever) to help angels of judgement to work in accordance with the divine will. At least, that is the theory. Some of the laws may not seem to make much sense. Maybe they are just there to remind angels that they should be obedient to heaven etc and that they are not mortal, at the end of the day. Yours is not to question why, young angel.[2] Consistency is paramount. Trust in God, that Justice will be done. I think it's also clear that angels are not judged by human laws. (Neither are humans, come to think of it.) - -- Why do Angels favour Just mortal laws and institutions? Because when the mortal laws are Just, they will tend to punish those who do 'bad' and reward those who do 'good', thus doing the angels' job for them. It's far more efficient and also good for lazy angels. This is the real reason Dominic's angels support just mortal laws. Similarly, unjust legal systems hamper the work of judgement. But from a long term perspective, these things aren't as important as chasing down angels who are co-operating with the adversary. This is why angels of judgement won't waste too much time on minorly unfair systems. They know that the deserving will get their rewards in the world to come. They'll probably support other angels in finding ways to make the systems better, preferably within the law but if that doesnt work, then in other ways. I do think that Judgement does support those lone individuals who dare to speak out against injustice, even at the risk of their own lives. Probably more than supporting group efforts to change the system (which maybe falls more in David's court). This follows from the dissonance condition (of not remaining silent when you suspect heresy). Dominic probably expects all of his angels and their servants and soldiers to be prepared to lay down their lives for the Truth. Such is life. - -- Justice in General Now a major problem with the whole justice issue is that life is basically unfair. Bad things happen to good people all the time (and vice versa). From a celestial perspective, things balance up a lot after death when the deserving end up in Heaven and the undeserving end up in Hell. IN has as yet no canon for who makes these decisions but it is probably Dominic, as Heaven's Judge. It is still clear that some of the deserving had much nicer lives than others, and some of the undeserving never had much of a dog's chance. It doesn't seem that angels of judgement spend too much time on this issue though (although they could), possibly because that would be like claiming that God is unfair. (It is obvious to many people that this is in fact the case, but saying so will get you pulled in very quickly for heresy - -- after all, your perception of God as being unfair can only show that your own understanding is severely impaired, and you should know that divine justice is always fair from God's perspective. Asking what the difference is between 'divine fairness' and 'ordinary unfairness' will only aggravate your punishment.). - -- So what about prostitution You couldn't afford me. (Why do these things always come down to sex?) Basically, the sex trade is delivering mortals into the hands of Lust so I'd expect most angels to oppose it on principle. Angels of Judgement can get a point of essence by reporting prostitutes to the police (if they are in a state where that is illegal), so that would probably be a default reaction. However, there are some good arguments that making prostitution legal is good for both the hookers and their clients, so given that it probably doesn't count too badly on the sinlist, angels of judgement might be supporting that position. After all, why should a woman be punished by society for entering into a freely negotiated deal with a man for sex? (ditto for rent boys et al) Apart from that awkward thing of encouraging Lust. Which can drag mortals down to hell. jo [1] cf Draconian Justice. Draco was a Greek jurist who devised a zero tolerance legal system that punished any infraction, however small, with death. There is a sense in which this was very fair. It did not last long. [2] Any similarities with halachah or shariyah (Jewish and Islamic religious law, resp.) is intentional. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Questions > Honestly, there's the notion of the *redeemed* having this > attraction (sort of, it's more the novelty of being able to get a > good look at them instead of diving for cover, and entirely likely > to wear off after a while!), but in non-canon sources, well... Consider > them a common view, but not canon! > We all HOPE it wears off after a while. :) But you never know when you need to be protected from marauding duckies! > Or, as Em may say, "We're just goofs!" O;> *nodnodnodnod* - - Em Current Quote: "I redeemed, not gave up my keen sense of fashion." - Daimon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:18 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Game Mechanics On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 01:17:49PM +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > I really like the In Nomine Game mechanics. Has anyone tried using the > > system outside the In Nomine Setting? > > > This is definitely a case of mileages varying widely. I don't like the > system much. It places too much emphasis on attributes rather than skills, > has little relation between degree of success/failure and skill, and the > probability of success is too obvious to players. And then there's such > bugs as the widely varying hit point system, and Charisma as a feature of > a Vessel rather than personality. Your points are valid. What I do like..or in fact love about the system is the d666, especially the check digit. The system is increadibly simple aswell as very descriptive. The attributes vs. skills emphasis doesnt really bother me too much. Maybe it isnt realistic, but if I wanted realism, I could play GURPS, right? :) But the Hit point systems are really tiresome. > I'm also of the opinion that the system and setting are too intertwined to > make it worth the bother of seperating them. You may be right about this one. Though if SJG wanted to do the job for me, and did it well too, I'd buy the book :) Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:06:18 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... > I don't know if I would class IN as a *superhero* game... :) It is a SuperHero game. It's not exactly a Marvel Heros, or Batman or Spiderman or anything like that, but there are still people who are bigger and badder then any human being fighting back and forth with superpowers. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:13:16 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... > > >On the other hand, there are several other games, and this is hardly once > > >in a decade. I can look at my bookshelves, and I know I'm a picky gamer, > > >and I can see games which have something to them which made them worthy in > > >some way - KULT, OTE, Cthulhu, Nephilim, Amber, Shades of Destiny/Shades > > >of Nightfall, Armageddon and Witchcraft, even HOL to some extent because > > >at least it has a very definite soul. I've even started looking through > > >the WW: Mage stuff, just because the main sourcebook has something there. > > Witchraft? Mage? HOL? These have *soul*...? HOL is cool because it's HOL. That's the best explaination for it. I don't think I could ever RUN it, not without some hallucinagenics, but the sourcebook is wack on many levels, and I dig wack. If it hurts my head, I'm there with bells on. A great sourcebook is one that I can read and it gives me evil bizarre ideas, and that one, well, does. :) Mage strikes me as a game with some major potential. I haven't looked at the five billion other associated sourcebooks with it, and I probably won't. I have a feeling that they just drain the life right out of it. And I put both of Myrmidion Press's games together. One thing that struck me as hilarious about Armageddon was that it had a really twisted take on the end. Nothing like the Archangel Gabriel being behind the Bavarian Illuminati. And the books have some of the _best_ Angel art - far better then I've seen here. The books might be somewhat blah in text but the art is great. Anyway, they're just examples of different games which are available out there somewhere. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:26:03 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>In short, most so-called victimless crimes (in the US anyway) aren't.<<< > > An argument could be made, however (in fact, _is_ made) that it's the > illegality of these activities that produces more victims than the > activities themselves. > Really? 1) When it comes to drugs, this just isn't so. Drugs destroy people, period, and in not-nice ways that hurt other people around them. 2) I don't have enough knowledge about the subject, so I can't argue for or against prostitution. I have to wonder, though. Selling sexual services- renting out one's body, really, can't be good for the psyche or soul. You'd almost have to sublimate yourself... *sigh* I don't know enough about this to make an argument. > If Dominic opposes such things as prostitution and drug use, it _isn't_ > because they're illegal. Dominic opposes things that are *wrong*, according > to him. If he deems prostitution bad, then it's as bad in countries where > it's legal as it is in the U.S. Ditto drugs and alcohol. Do you think > Dominic stopped approving of alcohol when Prohibition went into effect in > the United States, and labeled it kosher again when Prohibition ended? > That's not what I was arguing... I was arguing that victimless crimes aren't. Doing things that aren't illegal but still bad are of course wrong- hey, that's bad Judgement right there, must tick off Dominic something good, huh? > To a certain extent, of course, he will oppose law-breaking just on general > principles -- but I suspect Dominic personally doesn't care whether or not > some women charge for services that other women provide for free. If his One thing I did learn is that never, ever, compare prostitution to consensual sex between adults. It's not. One person, the 'john' is paying to use the body of another in prostitution. Consensual sex is about many things, but if it's consensual, it's usually not about one person buying another's body. On those terms, I think Dominic is concerned. I think Novalis, Zadkiel, or other mercy-oriented types would be more concerned, and probably more effective in dealing with the problem, but I suspect that Dominic's agents might be found in the tough-but-fair police officer type who tries to get the prostitute into a halfway house. And yes, although they are rare, especially for women over 18, there are halfway houses for people who are forced to walk the street for a living. > angels go after a john in a country where prostitution is illegal, it's > because they don't like his flaunting and denigrating the law and > threatening the local social order, not because they're offended that the > man paid for sex. And as an extension of that, they'd probably be a lot See, I don't think it works that way. He's not just paying for sex, he's paying to use someone. Rather impudite-like, and with the same effects, only psyche-sucking rather than soul-sucking. > more inclined to go after the john who abuses prostitutes, solicits > underage hookers, or who is married and thus is betraying his family (and > they'd go after a john like that even if he isn't breaking the law), than > to go after the nerdy single guy who calls an "escort" every month or two > for a discreet session because it's the only way he can get laid. *shakes head* No. That nerdy single guy is contributing to the destruction of another human being. She is, quite frankly, no matter how good in bed she is, not selling her services, her knowledge, or her capability. She's selling her body on an intimate basis. It is important; not recognizing this is probably some Demon Prince or group of Demon Princes (Andre, Fleurity (for the drugs part), and Nybbas most likely). > > -David - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:35:43 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Justice "Hart, Joanna" wrote: > So what about prostitution > > You couldn't afford me. (Why do these things always come down to sex?) > > Basically, the sex trade is delivering mortals into the hands of Lust so I'd > expect most angels to oppose it on principle. Angels of Judgement can get a > point of essence by reporting prostitutes to the police (if they are in a > state where that is illegal), so that would probably be a default reaction. > However, there are some good arguments that making prostitution legal is > good for both the hookers and their clients, so given that it probably > doesn't count too badly on the sinlist, angels of judgement might be > supporting that position. After all, why should a woman be punished by > society for entering into a freely negotiated deal with a man for sex? > (ditto for rent boys et al) Apart from that awkward thing of encouraging > Lust. Which can drag mortals down to hell. > I'm sorry to keep harping on about this, but what I learned really affected me. It's not about sex; like rape, it's about power. And like rape, only more slowly and insiduously, it destroys someone. When your worth comes not because you are a skilled proffessional (and, as I've said before, it's not someone's skills in bed that are being bought. The most you could say is it's someone's skills at faking), but because you are a warm body... Legalizing prostitution doesn't make things better. The slow destruction of the self is still there, and more than likely, legalizing will simply lead to a harsher illegal market- where those who are desperate or unable to stay within the confines of the law go... It's not a pretty picture. We've learned, however, that straight banning something like this doesn't work; but neither, I think, would legalization. I'm not sure what would, but prostitution is not a victimless crime or a 'freely negotiated deal with a man for sex.' > jo > > [1] cf Draconian Justice. Draco was a Greek jurist who devised a zero > tolerance legal system that punished any infraction, however small, with > death. There is a sense in which this was very fair. It did not last long. > > [2] Any similarities with halachah or shariyah (Jewish and Islamic religious > law, resp.) is intentional. - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:43:18 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... At 13:43 12/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Kenneth Winland wrote: > >> For obvious reasons, I think you could class in as "horror". > >I've seen the Sandman Graphic novels classed as Horror aswell, even though >I dont think its entirely appropriate. Actually, I always though of In >Nomine as a bit Neil Gaimanish, even though I couldnt fit the Endless into >the Setting. > c'mon, a couple of very powerful ethereals who kind of hang out invisibly. They could work in just fine. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:46:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus David Edelstein wrote: > -- how many cheery, heartwarming Santa Claus movies and cartoons > have you seen where he didn't actually give toys to _everyone_, > however undeserving? Well, one at least, about four years ago, with an undistinguished title like "Santa Claus: The True Story" or some such. It featured Dudley Moore as an earnest but slightly misfit elf. It also included a sort of capsule history of (their version of) Santa Claus, and specifically showed his development of his "system" -- the HQ at the north pole, the letters from the kids, *and* the classification into "naughty" and "nice." Also, "The Santa Clause," starring Tim Allen, shows the current Santa (Tim; in the movie, the title passes from one man to another down the years) strolling down a street in summer, muttering to himself -- "Jimmy [age 8], nice. Susie [age 7], nice. Marty [age 7], naughty. Veronica [age 23 or so] ... VERY nice." Veronica: "In your dreams, Fatboy." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:01:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus David Edelstein wrote: > I'd just as soon there _not_ be umpteen other versions of Santa > Claus in the In Nomine universe, though one can certainly argue > that there's an ethereal spirit and a St. Nicholas in Heaven, etc. > etc. I agree, for the reasons of dilution you give. I'd stick to a real St. Nicholas and an image job by Mammon and Nybbas. I also think there's potential in the "Santa's elves" schtick for complicating the relations between the Far Marches and Heaven. Here are two non-jingly images of St. Nick for those who want some raw material to make him more serious: First, in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," by C. S. Lewis, the children encounter Father Christmas (who may not be St. Nick exactly, but the conversion is trivial). He's cheerful, yes, but it's because the Forces of Good have just won a major victory against the Forces of Evil. He gives gifts, yes, but they're weapons -- a sword and shield, a bow, a dagger and a vial of healing potion. And the bad child in the plot isn't even there at the time and receives no gift, which crops up again books later, even when the child in question has repented and become a leading hero. Second, in "Hans Brinker and the Silver Skates," Hans is out on an urgent errand late on Christmas Eve and runs into what he thinks is St. Nicholas in person. (Actually, a village elder dressed up in bishop-like garb, making the rounds of the doorsteps, putting little gifts in the children's woods shoes.) Hans reacts much as an IN mundane would react to first encounter with a celestial. He's awe-struck, he stammers, he tries to excuse himself for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps St. Nick on Earth would, if taken at a disadvantage, find the Ethereal effects of Mammon's campaign affecting his Vessel. "Dammit, I'm putting on weight again! Hey! My clothes are turning red! I need to get some more Essence before the goddam reindeer show up..." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:05:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Humans B.H. wrote: > > Are all human beings who aren't natural sixes, saints, undead, or > soldiers doomed to having only 5 forces? I don't *think* so; it's just these are the roles 6+ forcers have available to them in the game (along with sorceror). It's rather implied that high-force humans generally hang about without any of those roles until some celestial notices them and they get caught up in the War. How long they hang about that way is not stipulated. And the Children of the Grigori are usually high-force "humans," and actively run away from celestials. (Of course, they'll probably get canonically documented eventually.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:00:08 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I don't know if I would class IN as a *superhero* game... :) > > It is a SuperHero game. It's not exactly a Marvel Heros, or Batman or > Spiderman or anything like that, but there are still people who are bigger > and badder then any human being fighting back and forth with superpowers. Usint that definition White Wolf's games are superhero games as well, and one could argue that some cyberpunk or fantasy games fit that description too. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:11:36 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Justice >Legalizing prostitution doesn't make things better. Yes it does. It makes it possible for the prostitution trade to be policed, for women/men to prosecute pimps who abuse them without fear of being prosecuted themselves. It makes it possible for prostitutes to be better protected against STDs and for licensed prostitutes to be required to have regular medical checkups (ie. to protect their clients also). It allows licensed prostitutes to have some rights in the eyes of the law. It might not make things better in the sense you mean but let's be honest, some women have been effectively trading the use of their bodies for financial security via marriage for a very long time (this isn't an anti-marriage rant; but there are women who let their boyfriends sleep with them for reasons which do nothing for their own self-esteem). It happens. People sell themselves in many different ways. This is only one. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:47:23 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Justice At 16:11 12/4/98 -0000, you wrote: >>Legalizing prostitution doesn't make things better. > >Yes it does. It makes it possible for the prostitution trade to be policed, >for women/men to prosecute pimps who abuse them without fear of being >prosecuted themselves. It makes it possible for prostitutes to be better >protected against STDs and for licensed prostitutes to be required to have >regular medical checkups (ie. to protect their clients also). It allows >licensed prostitutes to have some rights in the eyes of the law. > same argument for legalizing drugs it doesn't make the actual thing any better but all of the bad effects generated by the illegality of it are reduced. the violence, the ripping off all those things are reduced significantly with legalization. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:21:05 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Justice On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > >Legalizing prostitution doesn't make things better. > > Yes it does. It makes it possible for the prostitution trade to be policed, > for women/men to prosecute pimps who abuse them without fear of being > prosecuted themselves. It makes it possible for prostitutes to be better > protected against STDs and for licensed prostitutes to be required to have > regular medical checkups (ie. to protect their clients also). It allows > licensed prostitutes to have some rights in the eyes of the law. > > It might not make things better in the sense you mean but let's be honest, > some women have been effectively trading the use of their bodies for > financial security via marriage for a very long time (this isn't an > anti-marriage rant; but there are women who let their boyfriends sleep with > them for reasons which do nothing for their own self-esteem). It happens. > People sell themselves in many different ways. This is only one. It might also reduce the soul-killing aspect slightly if selling sex is accepted as a "real job". I don't know about that, but it's a thought. Here in Sweden prostitution is legal, but brothels are not, if I'm not misinformed. That is, it's illegal to provide contacts with prostitutes, but it's not illegal to be a prostitute. There's also been a big debate about half a year ago about making the johns illegal. I'm not sure how that would work, but then I'm not really read up on this subject. To keep this on topic, in the main book it says that Gabriel's Mercurians sometimes take on the roles of prostitutes, so not all angels are completely opposed to it, I think. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:28:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Justice Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > To keep this on topic, in the main book it says that Gabriel's > Mercurians sometimes take on the roles of prostitutes, so not all > angels are completely opposed to it, I think. But Gabriel's Mercurians have the job of stopping people from being cruel to themselves, so they may be mingling with prostitutes in order to break up the practice. A recent issue of Pyramid described an angel with a "heavenly hell-job" -- it was a worded angel of Flowers, given the task of helping the self-destructive. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:52:13 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Justice On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > To keep this on topic, in the main book it says that Gabriel's > > Mercurians sometimes take on the roles of prostitutes, so not all > > angels are completely opposed to it, I think. > > But Gabriel's Mercurians have the job of stopping people from > being cruel to themselves, so they may be mingling with prostitutes > in order to break up the practice. It seems more like they're supposed to help the johns, though that may be only part of their job. "These angels enjoy [sic!] such roles as bartenders, therapists, prostitutes and other secret confessors." Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:10:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions At 5:32 PM -0800 12/3/98, Kelly St.Clair wrote: >>>[...] Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly >>>attracted to Malakim. [...] What is the rationale of this? >> >>Malakim have Good Views from behind. > >Or, in slightly plainer language: >"Have you anything to say before I smite thee?" >"... you have a really cute butt." >"......" >"So, what kind of 'smiting' did you have in mind?" Well, it's like this. All Malakim are warriors of a sort, so they tend to have these really toned and buff appearances, especially celestially. So they're really *nice* to look at. But they're usually mad at you for no good reason, so what's a girl to do, when she gets a chance to ogle them safely? (It should be mentioned that by no means are all Lilim *totally* fixated on the Virtues. Some of them much prefer Kyriotates, Ofanim or Elohim. Still, I figure that there are a lot of Malakite pin-up posters in the Guildhall, hidden away carefully.) >>>Are Lilim seriously into danger, or what? >> >>Actually, it depends on the Lilim -- but I wouldn't be surprised... > >How about the ArchDean? ;) As Walter said, try, "into dangerOUS." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:12:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim At 12:11 AM -0500 12/4/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>At 4:57 PM -0500 12/3/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>Two options: number one, which I think is in the IPG, is that the >>Symphony starts tearing [the Kyrio/Shedite] apart. [...] >> >>(Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) > >Good God. Well, do mean, "tearing apart" as in force by force, >characteristic by characteristic or through Discord? :) Soulhit by soul hit, IIRC. It's in the APG and IPG. >Sucked into Limbo? Uhhh... that's bad. A Fate worse than destruction, >an eternity alone with only your psychosis to keep you company... A-yup! Isn't that jest *awful*! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:04:10 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Lilim and Malakim I also think the Malakim oath-chains are similar enough to geasa to ... interest Lilim. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:13:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > Actually, I always though of In Nomine as a bit Neil Gaimanish, > even though I couldnt fit the Endless into the Setting. For some earlier thoughts on the Endless in IN, see the In Nomine archives, among the SJG web pages. In particular, see: http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1998/3/1-685.txt and http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1998/3/1-686.txt To recap what I said there, I would recommend the Endless be their own unique variety of being, neither celestial nor ethereal. A given Endless is more powerful than an Archangel or Demon Prince, but less powerful than Lucifer or the united Seraphim Council. (At least, the younger Endless are.) If you *must* shoehorn them into existing IN categories, perhaps they are native to the next level of Heaven up. Or maybe, just as there are Upper Heavens and Lower Hells outside the normal scope of the game, there are Outer Marches beyond even the realms of the Far Marches beyond the Vale. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:16:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > I also think the Malakim oath-chains are similar enough to geasa to > ... interest Lilim. Also, neither Malakim nor Lilim have "opposites," the way seraphim & balseraphim or cherubim and djinn do. This might tend to shove them into being each other's de facto "opposites," and opposites attract, when they aren't deadly enemies... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:20:09 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim I always figured that a great deal of the attraction was due to the idea that "they're our opposites." Since Lilim don't see any corrupted Malakim in Hell, they don't have a degree of familiarity and/or digust of seeing the "true" opposites of Malakim. Add to that Andrealphus' comment in the extended Malphas write-up, which was along the lines of "We lust so much more for those we cannot have" and I think there's definitely interest by Lilim. Also, there's the common assumption that Lilim are fun, and I don't think that many Lilim have seen the Malakim have fun, so they might be interested in that. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:54:11 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> The Open Directory Project needs your links Hi, Some of you may have met the Open Directory Project (http://directory.mozilla.org/) in one of its previous guises (http://www.gnuhoo.com/ or http://www.newhoo.com/). To summarise it briefly: it's a web directory, like Yahoo, but built by volunteer editors, who are each in charge of a particular bit. I've been in charge of the INWO section, and I recently had the In Nomine section created. I'm slowly scanning through the list of In Nomine sites I can find, but it would speed things up a lot if you volunteer your own pages. (There's a form on the web page to do just this.) It also means that any final description of your web page is the directory is likely to be based on yours - which is good, because you probably know more about your page than anyone else ;-). Any comments on the Directory should be sent to me, not the list please. Thanks in advance for your help. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 05:58:59 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... My take on IN, and the line I tend to follow when I write adventures or characters, is that it's a 'high-wierdness' game, like OVER THE EDGE and the upcoming UNKNOWN ARMIES. Not horror - because you can't do horror effectively with empowered protagonists - but with horror elements. Not supers - because while I love supers comics & games, I prefer a far more covert style of action for IN - but with superhuman and cinematic elements. Weirdness - like a DOOM PATROL comic or a Tim Powers novel. A lot of my prefered gaming goes under high-weirdness, and that's where _I_ see the fun in IN (y'all can find your own fun anywhere you like). - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia ...my attorney kept screaming at them: "Shoot! Fuck! Scag! Blood! Heroin! Rape! Cheap! Communist! Jab it right into your fucking eyeballs!" HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.