From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Dec 20 12:12:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10432 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:12:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA27555 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:29:50 -0600 Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:29:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199812201729.LAA27555@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1062 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1062 In this digest: Re: IN> Malakim identifying demons IN> Test IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Neopaganism Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Ceridwen Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Word Conflict IN> Uriel's Crusade (and the Limbo Heresy) Re: IN> Ethereals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:59:55 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Malakim identifying demons At 08:48 AM 12/19/98 PST, you wrote: >And when he actually hit the demon with a two-by-four, with a blow that >would have severely injured or killed a human, his well-supported theory >was vindicated. > >(Mind you, I have known people who *do* play Malakim this way. But I >don't think it's justified by the book.) Good point. I agree I overgeneralized. My point was only that Malakim don't seem to be prohibited from acting like bullies of God, much like Habbalah seem to behave. I'm sure most of them aren't quite this bad. As a final thought, has anybody noticed how much Malakim of Jordi resemble garou in Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:47:54 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Test Is anyone out there? If this is getting to the list, please let me know. I haven't recieved anything in more than 24 hours. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:26:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>So everyone with a minority religious view was either killed or forced to leave? Sounds like a great guy<<< OK, here's something you have to remember: in the _real world_, most people in the modern, civilized world take it for granted that religious freedom is a virtue, and that everyone should respect and tolerate all religious views that don't infringe on the rights of others. This is both for humanitarian reasons (humanitarianism having fortunately become much more popular in the last century or so), and because most people are coming to the realization that since no one can prove THEIR religion is correct and everyone else's is wrong, it seems to be not a good thing to oppress someone else's religion just because it disagrees with yours. That's the real world. Now, in the In Nomine world, Uriel was an Archangel who had personal contact with God. He was a former Seraph. It's safe to say he had a MUCH greater understanding of the real picture than us politically correct, diversity-appreciating mortals. That doesn't mean he knew everything (this is an issue that's come up on the list repeatedly, so no point in rehashing the fact that even Dominic and Michael can't sort out who's REALLY right in the Big Theological Issues), but it does mean he wasn't just a violent fanatic who decided to wipe out all minority religions. He was a violent fanatic who decided to wipe out everyone who opposed God. Everyone killed in the Purification Crusade WAS, in one way or another, infringing on the authority and righteousness of God. The ethereals who persisted in spreading their beliefs and encouraging humans to traffic with and worship them rather than God weren't just "minority religions," they WERE actually enemies of God. Now, it is perfectly valid to debate whether slaughtering everyone who didn't line up behind everyone's favorite Big Monotheistic Deity was moral. The Archangels did indeed debate that, and many of them definitely did NOT approve of Uriel's actions. But to treat Uriel's Crusade as no different than, say, the real Crusades of the Middle Ages is overlooking a lot of the big themes in In Nomine. We're not talking about mere mortals with limited perspectives and unprovable biases, we're talking about Archangels who, rightly or wrongly, take actions based on the REAL Truth. Also, we're talking about a game universe where (unless you go for a consensual reality Mage-like setting) _some_ beliefs are actually, literally, WRONG. In the real world, it's possible that pagans and Christians are either both right (in part) or both wrong (in part or in whole). In the In Nomine world, it is not possible for both the ethereals and the Archangels to be right, at least where God is concerned. Another point to make is that Uriel didn't wipe out *religions*. He didn't hunt down people with "minority religious views." He wiped out *beings*, primarily ethereals, diabiolicals, undead, and those mortals who allied with such beings. He did not go on a crusade against mortals who worshipped pagan gods -- some pagans probably did get killed during the crusade, but they would have mostly been Pagan Soldiers and other aware mortals who were actively supporting the ethereals. He didn't have his angels just go around slaughtering all non-monotheistic mortals. It was NOT a campaign against dissenting religious views....if it was, it's pretty certain that ALL the Archangels would have lined up against him, because that would have been a heinous violation of mortal free will. - -David (Devil's Advocate in defense of the "Uriel was right!" theory...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:32:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>Also what did creatures like unicorns and fairies do to deseve slaying/banishment?<<< Well, if you know your mythology, you know that in the original "fairy tales," fairies and unicorns weren't cute Disney animations that walked around spreading warm fuzzies to children. They were actually Not Nice creatures, at least from a human perspective, and they certainly weren't on the side of the angels. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:08:59 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Neopaganism At 10:52 AM 12/19/98 +0900, you wrote: >No corruptive influences? What, are all Wiccans saints? I guess you've >never met a fanatical Wiccan, but I sure have. Quite aside from all the >factions that Jo alluded to, Wicca and all the other neopagan religions >are no less susceptible than any other religion to stupidity, chicanery >and fanaticism, and diabolicals can certainly find plenty of angles to >work on in a pagan circle, just as they can find ways to work their will >with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. I have to agree. I have a feeling that if Wicca was the dominant religion, it would be responsible for the same abuses of power that other religions are. Nothing against Wicca, I just don't think other religions are inherently worse. As for the role of Wicca in IN, I think the answer is obvious that ethereal pagan gods are involved. However, I kind of like the idea that many entities worshipped as pagan gods may actually have been Archangels or Demon Princes, such as Janus and Kronos. It enhances the idea of giving all religions equal ground. So I have a new Archangel for neopaganism: Ceridwen Archangel of Spring The world is birth, death, and rebirth. Keep hope alive for the return of life. Ceridwen is an Ofanite, and is full of vitality. She and her angels taught humans how to grow and harvest the fields, and Ceridwen was revered as a goddess. She celebrates fertility and motherhood, and anything that keeps life from being gone forever. Many of her servitors encourage the arts of medicine and herbalism. Ceridwen encourages fertility and sexuality. It is rumored that she and Lilith have allied from time to time to aid in causes related to women's liberation. She is also on the forefront of protecting children. Many shelters for victims of domestic violence have Ceridwen's servitors to thank for their origin. Ceridwen reminds others that God's gender is not known, and calls Him/Her the Goddess instead. As stated, Ceridwen was revered as a goddess in and of herself before Uriel's crusade. Many of her current followers are involved in the neopagan movement, such as Wicca, and also consider her to be a Goddess. This has put her on shaky terms with many other Archangels, particularly Dominic, Laurence, and Khalid. She maintains that the actions of her servitors are helping guide many more mortals attracted to paganism toward their destinies than would otherwise occur. She expects the rebirth of paganism on a scale to that of Christianity and Islam, and considers it as valid an expression of faith in God(dess) as any other. Dissonance: It is dissonant for Ceridwen's servitors to restrict life in any way. They must aid any oppressed individual they encounter. Those justly imprisoned for crimes against others are not considered oppressed, but they must come to the aid of any person unjustly imprisoned or controlled or abused. Choir Attunements: Seraphim: Ceridwen's Seraphim have a strong attunement to fertility. They can tell if a piece of ground will yield fertile crops, if a flower will bloom, or if a woman is pregnant, among other things related to fertility and growth. Furthermore, they can tell who planted crops or flowers, and can act as walking paternity tests. Cherubim: If a cherub of Ceridwen attunes herself to an oppressed person, she will know exactly what must be overcome to free the person: handcuff keys, a crowbar, a restraining order, a good divorce attorney, etc. Ofanim: Ofanim of Ceridwen can cause the rapid growth of any plant. This can be useful to block pathways or entangle opponents, but the plant must have the potential to grow this much naturally (although in a longer amount of time). Elohim: Elohim can use their resonance to tell if an individual is oppressed in any way. Malakim: Ceridwen's malakim have the ability to cause any one action used to harm another strike the agressor threefold. Any action the target made that caused distress to another person will happen within an hour to the person so "cursed" either three times or with three times as much harm. This can only be used once per individual. Kyriotates: Ceridwen's kyriotates can have twice the amount of hosts. Mercurian: Mercurians of Ceridwen encourage people to seek hope for their own lives and freedom. They can give a person a +2 bonus to any Will roll if the roll involves them breaking away from that which binds them. Servitor Attunements: Warmth of Spring: The angel and all who holds hands with her will suffer no ill effects from natural cold. Return of Life: With 6 essence and a successful Will roll, the angel may restore life to any dead area or object for ten minutes. Inanimate objects will act as though alive, and dead organisms (including people) will be temporarily revived. Distinctions: Vassal of Spring: The angel may sense any life currently growing, no matter how little, within 15 yards. Friend of Regrowth: The angel may cause any person to try and get back any freedom they have been denied. Battered wives will find the courage to leave, drug addicts will find the resolve to quit, hardened criminals will try to shape up for parole, etc. The effects last a number of weeks equal to the angel's Celestial forces. Master of the Equinox: The angel can, with an expenditure of Essence, expel a strong amount of sunlight from her body. This can light up a dark room, blind those who fail a Strength roll (-2 to all relevent skills), and is the anathema of vampires. Relations: Allied: Novalis, Eli, Christopher Associated: Jordi Hostile: Dominic, Laurence, Khalid Basic Rites: Spend three hours in wilderness during spring (+2 essence) Spend an hour planting or harvesting crops. Spend an hour in consensual sex. Chance of Invocation: 3 Invocation Modifiers: +1 In a maternity ward +2 In Spring +3 In a place of natural beauty +4 A cauldron filled with water and flowers +5 A peaceful demonstration for women's rights +6 Naked at dawn of the Vernal Equinox What do you think? Next I want to make the Archangel Moroni, to add Mormons in, too. I just need a word for him. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:11:30 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade At 12:32 AM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>Also what did creatures like unicorns and fairies do to deseve >slaying/banishment?<<< > >Well, if you know your mythology, you know that in the original "fairy >tales," fairies and unicorns weren't cute Disney animations that walked >around spreading warm fuzzies to children. They were actually Not Nice >creatures, at least from a human perspective, and they certainly weren't on >the side of the angels. Of course, according to many Biblical passages, it could be argued that the angels certainly weren't nice all the time either. They seemed pretty frightening, only showing up to utterly destroy a town or two. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 06:24:48 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place - -----Original Message----- From: Sean McCarthy To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 19 December 1998 17:57 Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place >At 11:59 PM 12/18/98 -0000, you wrote: >> >>Also what did creatures like unicorns and fairies do to deseve >>slaying/banishment? >> >>Ramesh >> >> > > Well, I don't know what legends you follow, but both creatures wantonly >killed humans in certain sources. Unicorns a bit less so, but fairies? >Certainly if you follow some of the myths, they were terribly dangerous to >humans. Heck, if you follow almost any of the original myths, even the best >of the good folk were a threat to humans by their very presence. Many were >much, much worse. > >Purity Now For The Future. > I'll admit that I don't know that much about the subject, so what is wrong with Seelie Fae or somelike Pegasi? Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 07:26:23 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein To: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 20 December 1998 05:45 Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>>So everyone with a minority religious view was either killed or forced >to leave? Sounds like a great guy<<< > >OK, here's something you have to remember: in the _real world_, most people >in the modern, civilized world take it for granted that religious freedom >is a virtue, and that everyone should respect and tolerate all religious >views that don't infringe on the rights of others. > >This is both for humanitarian reasons (humanitarianism having fortunately >become much more popular in the last century or so), and because most >people are coming to the realization that since no one can prove THEIR >religion is correct and everyone else's is wrong, it seems to be not a good >thing to oppress someone else's religion just because it disagrees with >yours. > >That's the real world. > >Now, in the In Nomine world, Uriel was an Archangel who had personal >contact with God. He was a former Seraph. It's safe to say he had a MUCH >greater understanding of the real picture than us politically correct, >diversity-appreciating mortals. That doesn't mean he knew everything (this >is an issue that's come up on the list repeatedly, so no point in rehashing >the fact that even Dominic and Michael can't sort out who's REALLY right in >the Big Theological Issues), but it does mean he wasn't just a violent >fanatic who decided to wipe out all minority religions. > >He was a violent fanatic who decided to wipe out everyone who opposed God. > >Everyone killed in the Purification Crusade WAS, in one way or another, >infringing on the authority and righteousness of God. The ethereals who >persisted in spreading their beliefs and encouraging humans to traffic with >and worship them rather than God weren't just "minority religions," they >WERE actually enemies of God. > >Now, it is perfectly valid to debate whether slaughtering everyone who >didn't line up behind everyone's favorite Big Monotheistic Deity was moral. >The Archangels did indeed debate that, and many of them definitely did NOT >approve of Uriel's actions. > >But to treat Uriel's Crusade as no different than, say, the real Crusades >of the Middle Ages is overlooking a lot of the big themes in In Nomine. >We're not talking about mere mortals with limited perspectives and >unprovable biases, we're talking about Archangels who, rightly or wrongly, >take actions based on the REAL Truth. Also, we're talking about a game >universe where (unless you go for a consensual reality Mage-like setting) >_some_ beliefs are actually, literally, WRONG. In the real world, it's >possible that pagans and Christians are either both right (in part) or both >wrong (in part or in whole). In the In Nomine world, it is not possible for >both the ethereals and the Archangels to be right, at least where God is >concerned. > >Another point to make is that Uriel didn't wipe out *religions*. He didn't >hunt down people with "minority religious views." He wiped out *beings*, >primarily ethereals, diabiolicals, undead, and those mortals who allied >with such beings. He did not go on a crusade against mortals who worshipped >pagan gods -- some pagans probably did get killed during the crusade, but >they would have mostly been Pagan Soldiers and other aware mortals who were >actively supporting the ethereals. He didn't have his angels just go around >slaughtering all non-monotheistic mortals. It was NOT a campaign against >dissenting religious views....if it was, it's pretty certain that ALL the >Archangels would have lined up against him, because that would have been a >heinous violation of mortal free will. In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. The only way (I can see) you could really say that Ethereal Gods acted against God the awareness of the Symphony is to help drag God to his Fate by dragging their followers to their Fates. Also I think a main point if IN is that Celestials are very much like us. They don't have all the answers, they don't know the REAL truth even Archangels, their views _are_ based on unprovable biases - Words. Ramesh Current Quote: "They are very much like us. Some seek to do good, others to do currupt and destroy. Some set out to do one thing, but accomplish another. Some are fiercely devoted to their work. Some doubt wheter they really make a difference. And some wonder, in the small hours of the night, if they picked the right side. They have great powers, for good and evil, but thhey are merely pawns of greater powers still. They are very much like us." Back coover of IN ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:27:21 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Ceridwen Greg Jensen wrote: > > As for the role of Wicca in IN, I think the answer is obvious that ethereal > pagan gods are involved. However, I kind of like the idea that many > entities worshipped as pagan gods may actually have been Archangels or > Demon Princes, such as Janus and Kronos. It enhances the idea of giving > all religions equal ground. So I have a new Archangel for neopaganism: > > Ceridwen > Archangel of Spring > > The world is birth, death, and rebirth. Keep hope alive for the return of > life. [snip] > Choir Attunements: [snip] > > > Ofanim: Ofanim of Ceridwen can cause the rapid growth of any plant. This > can be useful to block pathways or entangle opponents, but the plant must > have the potential to grow this much naturally (although in a longer amount > of time). Popularly known as The Kudzu Attunement, of course. *g* > Malakim: Ceridwen's malakim have the ability to cause any one action used > to harm another strike the agressor threefold. Any action the target made > that caused distress to another person will happen within an hour to the > person so "cursed" either three times or with three times as much harm. > This can only be used once per individual. One suggestion for this: Make this read "This can only be used once per individual per transgression." This way, if someone doesn't catch a clue and get right, if they continue to harm others, they can be zapped again. Another note: the harm done to the transgressor, if justified, causes no disturbance, but only if it is justified. A Malakim using this on someone who is innocent of causing harm will do no harm to the subject [ triple damage = 3 times 0= 0], but the Malakim will be the center of a disturbance equal to the harm that would have been inflicted on the subject otherwise. Example: a Malak of Ceridwen witnesses a driveby shooting which does 8 points of damage to a person picking up their child from a day-care. The Malak tracks down the vehicle owner. If the owner did the shooting, the Malak inflicts 24 points of damage to the shooter with 0 disturbance. If the vehicle owner was innocent [knocked unconscious and dumped into the trunk, while the car-stealer uses the car to stage the shooting], then using the MoC Attunement will do no damage to the car-owner, but the Malak will be the center of a [24/4=6] 6 point disturbance for as long as it takes for the echoes to fade out. > > Basic Rites: > Spend three hours in wilderness during spring (+2 essence) > Spend an hour planting or harvesting crops. > Spend an hour in consensual sex. Assist a couple in becoming pregnant, after doing what they angel can to make sure the parents are ready for this responsibility and and are ready to do what it takes to see that the child has a good home. [Working in fertility clinics is a popular choice for roles for Ceridwen's angels]. Assist a dying person in preparing themselves to die, to accept that this is just one more part of a properly lived out life. Assist those who are left after a death in accepting their loved one's death [natural part of life]. Nice. The Malak Attunement must put them in close contact with Gabriel's Servitors rather frequently. Most of the other attunements are definitely the sort of thing that will attract the attention of Novalis' angels. Got me thinking in terms of Angels of the Seasons [Think I would make Ceridwen a Worded Servitor of Novalis, myself, at least partly to resist the temptation to make every Word-bound an ArchAngel], like Boriel, Angel of Winter, Rest, and Austerity.... need to work on it and go over it somemore. Later. tom timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven ps. About Boriel... Elohim? Or Kyriotate? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:42:24 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > I'll admit that I don't know that much about the subject, so what is wrong > with Seelie Fae or somelike Pegasi? > > Ramesh There seems to be a misconception (not just here, but lots of other places) that the Seelie are good and the Unseelie are bad. This isn't really the case. The Unseelie were certainly nasty, vicious and tended to be crude, but the Seelie were every bit as dangerous. They were much more subtle and had a nifty sense of style, but they weren't exactly what we would call good. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:03:04 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely > hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. The > only way (I can see) you could really say that Ethereal Gods acted against > God the awareness of the Symphony is to help drag God to his Fate by > dragging their followers to their Fates. Another piece of advice on list etiquette: When replying to someone'spost, you should delete everything except that which needs to be kept as an antecedent to specific parts of the reply. In response to your question, one of the major things that the Ethereals do that Uriel would object to is gathering Essence from their worshippers. Some of what follows is my conjecture from reading the books; it might not strictly be canon (and could certainly change if a GM makes alterations in the nature of God), but I think it's a fairly standard interpretation. Essence flows from the Symphony, which was created by God (or is God, or whatever). It is provided by God to, in this case, humans for them to use for their own needs. Hopefully, they'll use it for things that will move them towards their Destiny, but that's their choice. The Ethereals have set up rites for humans to use to give their Essence to the Ethereal. (It's somewhat more complicated than this, since the Essence transfer might be what created the Ethereal in the first place, but we've discussed confusion in the game system before.) In addition to all of the various reasons why Uriel might object to the Ethereals putting themselves before God, he probably saw this a a rather nasty swindle. They were stealing God's Essence that he had given to humans. Basically, you're looking at Impudites operating on a larger scale. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:43:04 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Ethereals I was looking though the Marches again and I realised that the Hindu Gods are not mentioned at all in it at all - I assume that the Gods in Hinduism would be Ethereals since it is _far_ from being a montheistic religion. Was this because they were all killed or do they still exist? If they they still do exist wouldn't some amongst their number be some of the most powerful (Hinduism being amongst the 6 major religions)? If you can be bothered to satirise Christianity and be prepared to make comments on Neopaganism, why can't you satirise my (ex-)religion, not good enough for you or something :-) ? Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:59:08 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > I'll admit that I don't know that much about the subject, so what is wrong > with Seelie Fae or somelike Pegasi? The only story about the Pegasus that I am aware from ancient times is that it was the child of Medusa the Gorgon (In some stories it sprung free from her neck when Perseus killed her). The Pegasus would let people try to ride her, only to throw them in the air and dash them to their deaths on the ground. Belleraphon got a magical saddle (from Athena?) that let him ride her. Belle promptly tried to fly to Olympus whereupon Zeus killed him with a lightning bolt for his pride. From this we can learn that no mortal rode a Pegasus and did not die. It is a hostile creature which delights in killing humans. Seelie Fae are BETTER than their Unseelie ilk, but they are still dangerous tricksters. They were repelled by church bells (some would be killed by the sound of church bells) which suggests some antipathy by God (or perhaps Uriel). They acted like humans were amusing pets to them, often accidentially killing or harming them while playing a joke. Their jokes were rarely funny to the recipients. The Unseelie were just plain out to get you. Wild hunt and all that. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:15:38 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely > hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. But one he DID hand down was "Worship no other gods before me." Does this make more sense than "Don't eat the apple I made for the sole purpose of not being eaten?" Perhaps not, but it is a direct commandment from God. (If you believe that God Talked Directly To Moses and not some AA) > The > only way (I can see) you could really say that Ethereal Gods acted against > God the awareness of the Symphony is to help drag God to his Fate by > dragging their followers to their Fates. That is certainly a valid interpretation. I am certain that most Demons would agree. I believe that the Archangels would say that *URIEL* killed the Etherials not God. God is a unity. He does not allow other gods. By trying to be gods, the Etherials were in error. Uriel went nuts after the Fall and started rampaging against anything he saw that might cause someone to fall. God is secretly an Etherial, he slipped Uriel loose from his chains to protect his power. These three interpretations can all be consistant in the rules. It depends on the campaign you want. Personally I run mine as a blend of one and two. God didn't like the Etherial gods running around claiming power, Uriel sensed that and was a bit overzealous in his job. This allows several AAs to have different views of the results. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:14:11 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place Jason Corley wrote: >On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Sean McCarthy wrote: >> At 11:59 PM 12/18/98 -0000, you wrote: >> > >> >Also what did creatures like unicorns and fairies do to deseve >> >slaying/banishment? >> >> Well, I don't know what legends you follow, but both creatures wantonly >> killed humans in certain sources. Unicorns a bit less so, but fairies? >> Certainly if you follow some of the myths, they were terribly dangerous to >> humans. Heck, if you follow almost any of the original myths, even the best >> of the good folk were a threat to humans by their very presence. Many were >> much, much worse. > >And more importantly, they were on their way out in terms of belief when >Uriel went on his crusade. Why is this important? > >This is why, I imagine, Michael just sort of looked the other way and said >"Terrible, terrible, well, someone will look into it." > >It also has the game advantage of making those ethereals less likely to >want to storm reality by force, turning them into cosmic hustlers always >looking for just a bit more Essence. I like it. This is similar to the reason that Michael did not join Uriel on the purity crusade IMC. In my game, there -were- an awful lot of Ethereals deep in cahoots with Hell, and even the ones that weren't actively allied with demons often did things to mortals that angered a lot of the angels. Michael, however, did not care to join the crusade, because given a choice between a demonically-allied ethereal and the demon ally, he'd go after the demon. After all, the ethereals themselves were basically helpless before the might of Heaven, and if their Infernal air supply were cut off, they would no longer be any sort of threat. IOW, he regarded the Purity Crusade as a waste of time and effort. (Michael has a if-you-blow-up-the-bowling-alley-the-pins-will-fall-over attitude towards grand strategy in my game.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:22:19 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, John Maurer wrote: > Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > > In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely > > hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. > > But one he DID hand down was "Worship no other gods before me." Does this make > more sense than "Don't eat the apple I made for the sole purpose of not being > eaten?" Perhaps not, but it is a direct commandment from God. (If you believe > that God Talked Directly To Moses and not some AA) OTOH, that doesn't seem to be a commandment He's especially interested in whether people follow or not, since religion doesn't seem to have any bearing on where human souls end up. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:03:29 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Eeyore wrote on 20 December 1998 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely >> hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. The >> only way (I can see) you could really say that Ethereal Gods acted against >> God the awareness of the Symphony is to help drag God to his Fate by >> dragging their followers to their Fates. > >In response to your question, one of the major things that the Ethereals do >that Uriel would object to is gathering Essence from their worshippers. Some >of what follows is my conjecture from reading the books; it might not strictly >be canon (and could certainly change if a GM makes alterations in the nature of >God), but I think it's a fairly standard interpretation. > >Essence flows from the Symphony, which was created by God (or is God, or >whatever). It is provided by God to, in this case, humans for them to use for >their own needs. Hopefully, they'll use it for things that will move them >towards their Destiny, but that's their choice. The Ethereals have set up >rites for humans to use to give their Essence to the Ethereal. (It's somewhat >more complicated than this, since the Essence transfer might be what created >the Ethereal in the first place, but we've discussed confusion in the game >system before.) Intreresting idea, but I have a few questions about it: If God have Essence to humanity to achieve their Destiny, why do Celestials and Ethereals naturally regerate Essence? I suppose you could argue that humans use their Essence on what they most care about, but if God gave humans a little more control over it they could channel their efforts more easily, so why didn't God? >In addition to all of the various reasons why Uriel might object to the >Ethereals putting themselves before God, he probably saw this a a rather nasty >swindle. They were stealing God's Essence that he had given to humans. >Basically, you're looking at Impudites operating on a larger scale. 1 Once you've given a gift to someone it is no longer yours. The Essence being _given_ to the Ethereals Gods was the human's property, not God's. 2 The Impudite analogy is something most Celestials would agree on. But the Ethereal Gods and their followers wouldn't. Some Ethereal Gods were little more than "Impudites operating on a larger scale" but to Quote from The Marches - p76: (Note the following quotes do not include all of the text from the book this is for 3 reasons: 1 I couldn't be bothered, 2 I'm trying to make a point and so I would try to stress some points over others [I make no pretences of that], 3 it would take too long to download. So _please_ reread the Marches -The Ethereal Realm - History and make your own opinions) "The spirits taught humans Songs and gave them Soul links, and created rituals of worship that allowed humans to generate more Eseence for the spiritd, increasing their power and allowing them to bestow gifts on their loyal followers. Some spirits became patrons protectors and teachers of their human followers, who told myths and legends about their exploits. These spirits were kind and and caring towards mortals; others found humans entertaining ... chess pieces, toys or carousing comanions ..." "... Other spirits objected to the "strip mining" tactics of their fellows and worked to protect humans. Conflicts between these two camps are recorded in myth as the battles of the gods for the spirits of humanity, pale echoes of the true War for the Symphony that was happening behind the scenes." I think the above quote quite adequetely describes how not all Ethereal Gods used mankind for their wicked ends. "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." - This sounds like a severe case of hubris "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of humanity." After the ethereals had left the corporeal realm, there was no valid reason (if there was on to begin with) for Uriel to continue the Crusade. The only reason for continuing was to satisfy Uriel's Bloodlust. Ramesh - Elohite of Flowers?? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:21:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Warsinger Subject: IN> Word Conflict Given that Gabriel has basically been driven mad by her Word conflict with Belial, and that it seems to be caused by an Archangle and Demon Prince sharing a Word, would it not make sense for Lucifer to promote say the Demon Prince of the Sword (or have the Demon Prince of War since I see Michael as more of a threat really). There are some reasons against this - Baal would kind of object to a Demon Prince of War, the newly appointed person would be a massive target etc. But I can see Lucifer appointing someone to those Words, making them a Demon Prince in name only and then keeping them in the Lower Hells of something - their mere existence in the Symphony in the form of the pain they would give to the Archangels being an important enough role in the War. Bit cheating of him to do it yes - but I can't honestly see him being that concerned with that :) I'm sure there are some problems with this theory - the weakest bit being the idea of appointing someone to be a Prince in name only - but what do you think? Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:05:25 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade (and the Limbo Heresy) Ramesh said: > After the ethereals had left the corporeal realm, there was no valid reason > (if there was on to begin with) for Uriel to continue the Crusade. The > only reason for continuing was to satisfy Uriel's Bloodlust. Ramesh, thank you; you just crosswired with another couple threads and sparked a plot/campaign seed in my brain. :) Hmm. I'll post it or a URL on the List when I've written it up - URL more likely, as the more I think about it the longer it gets... - eslin@buffnet.net / chephirah@fiat.justitia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:29:07 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals At 12:43 PM 12/20/98 -0000, you wrote: >I was looking though the Marches again and I realised that the Hindu Gods >are not mentioned at all in it at all - I assume that the Gods in Hinduism >would be Ethereals since it is _far_ from being a montheistic religion. >Was this because they were all killed or do they still exist? If they they >still do exist wouldn't some amongst their number be some of the most >powerful (Hinduism being amongst the 6 major religions)? If you can be >bothered to satirise Christianity and be prepared to make comments on >Neopaganism, why can't you satirise my (ex-)religion, not good enough for >you or something :-) ? Good point. I think Hinduism can still fit in with Heaven, however, if you consider that Brahma=God, and all other gods are just aspects of Brahma. Of course, you have to also consider that reincarnation and Heaven don't always mix. You could always call Heaven Nirvana, I suppose. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1062 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.