From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 23 03:05:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA21472 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 03:05:39 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id CAA25470 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:48:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:48:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199812230848.CAA25470@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1067 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1067 In this digest: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! IN> Faith Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:03:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade One thing to keep in mind is that it's pretty evident Uriel was designed to be an Archangel on the edge. He is SUPPOSED to be a controversial figure, so far as I can see, and the reader is SUPPOSED to feel ambivalent about him. If you decide he is just plain Bad (or just plain Good, but I haven't heard that advocated a lot), you don't get the point of the tale. Maybe you don't get the point of the tale because the tale wasn't crafted properly, but I still think that was clearly the point they were trying to make. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy > Not for SJ; I meant, write it on e-paper. So that those of us who want a > more historically accurate setting can do so without, y'know, having to > pay for it. What, you want charity? What do you think this is, the Salvation Army? :) ... Maybe. I have some IN related projects which will be beginning in the new year, and this might go on the heap. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:56:24 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Martin Arnold wrote: > My turn for a rant...:-) So, what you're saying is that you want the information when you want it, and you don't want to have to wait for the book to be published or to pay for it. Well, in short, too bad. How can you reasonably expect people who make their livings off writing to give their product away for free? Sure, once the book is published there will be discussion and errata and questions and whatnot, and you could probably figure out what you want to know from that, but until then you're asking them to forgo payment for their work. And you complain that the option they're given you to get an advance look at the material, the Pyramid playtest files isn't worth your money. Those of us who pony up our $15 a year disagree. Frankly, the minor tounge-lashing that you received, which you refer to as getting someone's back up, was quite gentle, especially in light of some the responsed I know didn't get mailed. There's no call for the level of discourtesy your posts have shown on this topic and although I have greatly enjoyed some of your past postings, I do wish you'ld stop wasting my bandwidth on these silly attacks on SJG and it's employees and associates. - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:16:13 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Eeyore wrote on 22 December 1998 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Maybe in the eyes of the law ignorance is not an excuse but in mine it is. >> The ethereals probably believed that they were right - Hell they were >> created by thoughts and belief in them being God (or whatever) and so they >> probably really believed that the God monotheistic religions believed in >> was just another ethereal. > >>From Uriel's perspective, whether they are lying or mistaken is unimportant. >Either way, they are spreading a story that is false. Sure I agree Uriel felt he was doing what he thought was right, I'm just trying to say that quite a few of the ethereal gods weren't "bad guys" so I can't condone his actions - If he were not so quick to use violence and was more discriminating in his action I might be able to do so. >> "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who >> stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. >> Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved >> the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. >> But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into >> the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of >> humanity." (The Marches p77 near top of 1st column) > >Blandine's realm is in the Near Marches. If Uriel's hunters followed the >Ethereals there, they are not pursuing those that have retreated to the Far >Marches. I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but I think it's that the Ethereals should have only be in the Far Marches, and I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, from the Ethereal POV the classification of the Marches in trems of distance from the towers of Blandine & Beleth is a little arrogent and the ethereals may see the vale of dreams as being as much their home as the Far Marches Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:50:19 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Richard Gant wrote on 22 December 1998 > >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Look Nick, I am in no way trying to offend anyone and if I did I'm *VERY* >> sorry if I did. I'll take this opportunity to apologise to Richard Gant if >> he was was offend by my remark on his e-mail. > >Offended? No. I just ssumed that you have a very different take on Uriel >than I do. I don't agree with your position, but it certainly didn't >offend me. > >Heck, I was worried that *I* might be getting offensive with some of this. > I can't comment for others but I wasn't offended. And I feel if you hold back your view (regardless of how contraversial) (but of course you have to phrase it politely) the person you are arguing with can't understand your view, so you can't come to some sort of understanding which is what I see the point of discussing is. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:04:39 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Richard Gant wrote on 22 December 1998 >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> On the same kind of line, I'm puzzled something in the Marches (p76): >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." >> >> What exactly does it mean by: "purity of thought, word and deed". It kinda >> reminds me of the Cabal of Pure Thought (New World Order) from WoD, but >> that's just me, I'd like to hear how a pro-Uriel views it. > >I don't know anything about the Cabal of Pure Thought (so I won't coment >on that), but here's my pro-Uriel take on the quote: > >Purity of thought, word, and deed is being in complete harmony with the >mind and will of God. Your thoughts are the kind of thoughts God would >have. Your words are the words God would speak. Your deeds are the deeds >God would perform. It is a state of pure and complete righteousness. It >is also a completely impossible state for any being less than God to >achieve. Nevertheless, it should be the goal for all beings in the >Symphony. God is the archetype and the example for all, because He >created All. > >This purity of thought, word, and deed may be thought of as achieving >union with God. You do not cease to exist as an individual, because God >encompasses All. You do not lose your free will, because you have chosen >freely to accept this union. > >Note that in my campaign, Uriel likes Taoists more than he likes many >Christian sects. That sounds okay. My worry was that purity of thought was what Uriel defined as purity of thought - which when I took that line of reasoning further reminded me of "Big Brother" and the like. But that's probably what it would be like as a demonic word, I prefer you're interpretation for an angelic Word. Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:40:01 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) On 22 December 1998 Richard Gant wrote: >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> >3.) Etherals that packed and left were for the most part ignored. >> >> I disagree: >> "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who >> stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. >> Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved >> the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. >> But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into >> the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of >> humanity." (The Marches p77 near top of 1st column) > >I'd always interpreted that statement thusly (is that actually a word?): >The spirits that were driven into the Marches are the ones that the >Servitors of Purity followed. In war, "driven" implies that they are >broken hostiles who are fleeing from their attackers. The spirits that >Uriel followed into the Marches were the retreating spirits who had >refused to leave Earth peacefully. I suppose you could view it that way, but where exactly do you see the word "driven", I can't find it anywhere? Also once they had left the Corporeal plane surely that was enough, Uriel had acheived his objective. P.S. IMO if you make up a word and enough people start using it, it becomes a word for all intents and purposes regardless of what any dictionary says! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:04:48 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches." > > > >I'd always interpreted that statement thusly (is that actually a word?): > >The spirits that were driven into the Marches are the ones that the > >Servitors of Purity followed. In war, "driven" implies that they are > >broken hostiles who are fleeing from their attackers. The spirits that > >Uriel followed into the Marches were the retreating spirits who had > >refused to leave Earth peacefully. > > I suppose you could view it that way, but where exactly do you see the word > "driven", I can't find it anywhere? It was the first sentence you quoted: "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. > Also once they had left the Corporeal plane surely that was enough, Uriel > had acheived his objective. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Uriel meant to ensure that they would never try it again. After all, the Ethereals were capable of doing things from the Marches. > P.S. IMO if you make up a word and enough people start using it, it becomes > a word for all intents and purposes regardless of what any dictionary says! Sounds good to me. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:19:05 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Mr. Arnold, wherever did you get the idea that the purpose of this list is to summarize the contents of any In Nomine books, already released or upcoming, for individuals who don't have those books? Or that SJG employees and freelance writers (almost all IN writers are the latter) are obligated to answer every one of your questions, in as much detail as will satisfy you, or else SJG is being greedy and uncooperative? This list is helpful, and in general, people (including those of us who actually write for IN) are quite willing to answer questions. Your questions WERE ANSWERED! They just apparently weren't answered in as much detail as you wanted -- what did you want, an excerpt from the final draft (the damn book hasn't even gone to the printers yet!) e-mailed to you personally, or posted to the list? Your "bile" is completely unjustified and totally inappropriate. Beth and Walter both dealt with your earlier indignant snivellings very diplomatically, I think. Since you seem determined to persist in ranting and crying and demanding the entire list's undivided attention, here's a less diplomatic response: go away. Who needs you? The crack about how "your pennies pay our wages" is just pathetic. Here you are demanding information about the Book of Tethers, when for $15 a year, you could have had the entire playtest files yourself. If it's that important for you to know details about canon in upcoming books, it would be better to spend a few dollars than to rant and alienate everyone on the list. Your pennies do NOT pay our wages, kid. First of all, no one who writes for In Nomine makes any money off of Pyramid subscriptions. (We have to pay for a Pyramid subscription ourselves!) Secondly, the amount most of us make from freelance writing amounts to a bit of spending money, but hardly enough to pay the rent. Therefore, hardly enough to make us feel indebted to every screaming fanboy who shells out $19.95 for a supplement now and then. You think you enjoy some kind of special status as an In Nomine fan, such that every writer and SJG personage on this list should fall all over themselves to answer your every query? What you are demonstrating is the kind of arrogance, ignorance and lack of consideration that does nothing to enhance the industry, or the reputation of gamers, and does a lot to discourage many writers from participating in public forums like this. It is NO ONE'S job to quote entire sections of rulebooks for you, or even to summarize if they don't happen to have the time or inclination at the moment. I don't know where you got the idea that the In Nomine list is intended to be a preview of all upcoming supplements for the benefit of snots who are too cheap to buy a Pyramid subscription and too impatient to wait for it to be published so they can browse through it on the rack, but your attitude needs a serious readjustment if you actually want constructive responses. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:23:58 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> Faith In a feeble attempt to get off the whole Uriel thread.... It's been mentioned many times that demonic resonances are usually so powerful that a mortal has no real way to resist short of a Divine Intervention. I may have a solution to that. A hybrid stat like Charisma or Toughness, Faith is bought like a skill, but its only purpose is to add to the Will of its possessor when attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or resonance. This 'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and can only be bought by humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to Perception to see Celestial forms. At GM whim, this stat might be bought by soldiers of Hell. Discuss. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:40:39 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! I think this is a good oportunity for wishing everyone a merry christmas. Regardless of whether Santa exists or not.. ;) Hope you dont mind me "spamming" the list with this. Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:08:07 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Faith In a message dated 12/22/98 4:27:14 PM, bertishg@db.erau.edu writes: >A hybrid stat like Charisma or Toughness, Faith is bought like a skill, > >but its only purpose is to add to the Will of its possessor when >attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or resonance. This >'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and can only be bought by >humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to Perception to see >Celestial forms. > >At GM whim, this stat might be bought by soldiers of Hell. > > >Discuss. > I like this idea. It's consistent with the rest of canon, and it makes for a truly novel surprise if a sneaky GM adds it without telling his players it's there. Maybe it could be something the Demon (or Kyrio...) could tell about a person before attempting a will roll. Or, better yet, with a successful Perception check. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:43:07 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Casca wrote: > It's been mentioned many times that demonic resonances are usually so > powerful that a mortal has no real way to resist short of a Divine > Intervention. I may have a solution to that. > > A hybrid stat like Charisma or Toughness, Faith is bought like a skill, > but its only purpose is to add to the Will of its possessor when > attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or resonance. This > 'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and can only be bought by > humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to Perception to see > Celestial forms. This sounds like a really good idea. I'd love to comment on it more, but you seem to have the whole thing thought out already. > At GM whim, this stat might be bought by soldiers of Hell. I'd let them. For a soldier of Hell, it would represent their faith in the personal symphony of their infernal master. It wouldn't--scratch that. It would also be handy for trying to resist the resonance-based attempts fo their masters to force them to do things they don't want to do. It could go a long way towards explaining why demons cut deals and negotiate with humans, instead ofjust forcing them to do something. > Discuss. Yes, oh Seraph of Archives. :) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:59:09 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) on 22 December 1998 Richard Gant wrote: > >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> I suppose you could view it that way, but where exactly do you see the word >> "driven", I can't find it anywhere? > >It was the first sentence you quoted: "The spirits were driven back into >the depths of the Marches. Doh! Obviously going blind, either that or I should have waited till I had some sleep. Thanx. >> Also once they had left the Corporeal plane surely that was enough, Uriel >> had acheived his objective. > >Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Uriel meant to ensure that they would never try >it again. After all, the Ethereals were capable of doing things from the >Marches. > Possibly a good tactic in a war, but morally it's equivalent to punishing someone for a crime they might commit in the future. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:28:37 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Nick Jost wrote on 22 December 1998 >I'm going to try to condense this because I think Ramesh is taking a less >harsh stance now.... No, I'm just being clearly about what my stance is. >> Nick Jost wrote on 21 December 1998 >> >> The Ethereals whom essence was given to didn't (IMO) commit a crime, the >> once who stole it did. > >Uriel, and others of the host, could see it differently. Impudites do that >sort of thing. "Good" celestials use there own essence and beat up opponents >in the war. No, Impudites steal essence it isn't given to them. >> >And not all of the etherals where hunted down and killed right? >> >> If Uriel were to have his way, I'm not so sure. >> > >I don't think anyone disagrees with you here. There is a moral controversy >over whether what Uriel did was right. It hardly amounts to genocide or >racial cleansing though. The issues muddy, not that clear cut. I personally hold the opinion that Uriels actions were analogous to racial cleansing >> They still >> >claimed to be things they weren't right? >> >> Not really Thor was a God of Lightning, Maat was a God of Justice, etc, >> etc, they just weren't The God >> > >No he's not. God created the fundamental laws that influence lightning. Jean >is the maintainer of those laws. What does Thor have to do with that? Oops, I meant thunder. Anyway, he could symbolise lighting just in a different way. >> I was attempting to proove that not all Ethereal Gods were "Bad Guys" and >> that the "Good" Ethereal Gods fought with the "Bad" ones becasue they >> believed that their practises were wrong. >> > >Noone disagrees with you. But don't suppose a pro-etheral audience. There >are very convincing arguments that the etherals deserved everything they got >and then some. I don't pre-suppose a pro-etheral audience, if I did I wouldn't have bothered to make that point. My argument has been that not ****ALL**** ethereals deserved what they got and Uriel (if he was concerned about punishing bad ethereals and not just removing all of them from existance) should have taken more care about who he punished. >> >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place >> where >> >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." - This sounds >> >> like a severe case of hubris >> >> >> >And? You could easily play that Uriel is being smacked around in your >> >campaign. This still doesn't make the etheral's cute and cuddly. >> >> I didn't say that "that justified the Ethereals", I was suggesting that >> Uriel was overstepping his authority. > >Which still doesn't make him the pathological monster you originally depicted >him as. Give him more credit, and flavor. I didn't depict him as being a "pathological monster", I said he commited an act analogous to racial cleansing, but I accepted the fact he did this for reasons he thought were good. I accept the fact that destroying evil Gods and creatures of Myth which preyed upon humanity was a good thing. I personally have no feel for the Word Purity, I have never read anything (canon) in detail about the Word. That is why have some understanding of the importance of all the AAs Words except Purity - I just don't understand it. >> >> What *I* was objecting to was that Uriel was a Hero who deserved being >> rewarded. >> > >Who said that beyond it being a very distinct possibility. Please see the following e-mai: Date/time: 16/12/98 02:40 From: Chad and Erin Subject: Re: IN>Uriel Take the In Nomine >position on this. What function that aided the celestial cause did the >Etherals provide? > >The host is interested in humanity. The etherals for all purposes are just >so much dreams to them. If the etherals where being more than dreams and >influencing humans to their fates, what is an AA of Purity to do? > As I have said before maybe that was the only was that Uriel could deal with it but I can't condone it. When Uriel first saw the matter as a problem he could have asked others in Heaven to deal with it in an appropriate way (Yeah, I know AAs have too much pride to do that kind of thing). Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:36:16 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Earl wrote on 22 December 1998 >One thing to keep in mind is that it's pretty evident Uriel >was designed to be an Archangel on the edge. He is SUPPOSED >to be a controversial figure, so far as I can see, and the >reader is SUPPOSED to feel ambivalent about him. If you >decide he is just plain Bad (or just plain Good, but I haven't >heard that advocated a lot), you don't get the point of the >tale. Maybe you don't get the point of the tale because the >tale wasn't crafted properly, but I still think that was clearly >the point they were trying to make. Agreed. I didn't mean to say that Uriel was Evil through and through, I was simply trying to argue that his wasn't the epitome of Good. Please see the following e-mail (the reason why I entered the debate): Date/time: 16/12/98 02:40 From: Chad and Erin Subject: Re: IN>Uriel Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:43:02 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Haarvard wrote: >I think this is a good oportunity for wishing everyone a merry christmas. >Regardless of whether Santa exists or not.. ;) Don't even think stuff like that! :-) >Hope you don't mind me "spamming" the list with this. (Hope no-one minds me doing this either) Have a Cool Christmas Folks! Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:43:05 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca wrote on 23 December 1998 00:36 >In a feeble attempt to get off the whole Uriel thread.... good idea Nice Idea but, wouldn't it be easier to allow humans to buy extra Will at start up, they cost the same and it would make more sense for Soldiers of Hell. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:06:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Uriel meant to ensure that they would never try > >it again. After all, the Ethereals were capable of doing things from the > >Marches. > > > Possibly a good tactic in a war, but morally it's equivalent to punishing > someone for a crime they might commit in the future. True. Which is one of the reasons (I assume, anyway) that there was so much contriversy over the Crusade in Heaven. It made sense from the point of war, but not everyone thought it was needed. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:06:43 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Faith Ramesh, in a letter I have deleted, asked why anyone would buy Faith when it would be cheaper to increase Will instead. Answer: Ordinary humans have only 5 Forces, and must have one of each type. Thus, a human could have a maximum of 3 Celestial Forces, which equates to 12 points distrubited between Perception and Will. True, you could be ridiculous and have a character with Per 1 Will 11, but a more reasonable distribution would be in the 4-8 range. Now, let's take a look at the sample Demons listed in the core book and and use only those listed as starting characters. Adam, Will 9. Marcus, Will 12. Sabrina, Will 12. Notice a trend forming? Let's not even mention the fact that each of those characters has up to 9 points of Essence to blow to boost their Resonance, whereas the sample human can only hold up to five, must blow it -all at once-, and, on average, has only 1d-4 on average. In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single time.- Most of the time, that's okay. But what about the truly pious non-Soldier NPCs? What about decent, God-fearing Amish who live clean lives? What about the basic premise of Christian faith that says, "If you call upon the Lord for strength and succor, and you -truly believe-, then it shall be granted unto you?" That's where the Faith stat comes in. Toos some of those 36 cp into Faith, and Will for resisting demonic resonance goes from 4-8 to 5-9 or even 6-10. This gives generic, clean-living humans a -fighting chance-. Sure, Will costs the same, but since when do normal humans get xp? Heck, even if you're playing a Soldier of God, it makes sense. Just as you'd put points into Toughness to increase your body hits, you'd put some points into Faith because you're going to be going up against minions of the Adversary on a regular basis. Personally, I'd restrict it to 1 level of Faith per 2 Forces. That means normal humans and beginning Soldiers have two, experienced Soldiers and beginning Saints three, and experienced Saints four. Don't like it, don't use it. But if you drag this out into another Uriel thread, I'm a-gonna kill you. ;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 05:38:06 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - -----Original Message----- From: Ramesh Satkurunath >>Uriel, and others of the host, could see it differently. Impudites do >that >>sort of thing. "Good" celestials use there own essence and beat up >opponents >>in the war. > >No, Impudites steal essence it isn't given to them. > Ethereals should be _flattered_ at being compared to Impudites! (They are't nearly as cute). jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:23:08 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca wrote on 23 December 1998 > >Ramesh, in a letter I have deleted, asked why anyone would buy Faith when >it would be cheaper to increase Will instead. Not cheaper the same cost. >In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single >time.- I agree and I think that any attempt to even the balance a little for the humans is a good idea. >Most of the time, that's okay. But what about the truly pious non-Soldier >NPCs? What about decent, God-fearing Amish who live clean lives? What >about the basic premise of Christian faith that says, "If you call upon >the Lord for strength and succor, and you -truly believe-, then it shall >be granted unto you?" That's where the Faith stat comes in. Sure. But what I was saying was that someone having a strong faith could be represented by having a strong will - I see IN as a storyteller kinda system (the rules don't matter that much the story is what's important) you don't need exact rules you could easily make this kind of fudge. And it gives secular people with resolve in their belief - not faith - a chance to do the same. >Toos some of those 36 cp into Faith, and Will for resisting demonic >resonance goes from 4-8 to 5-9 or even 6-10. This gives generic, >clean-living humans a -fighting chance-. Sure, Will costs the same, but >since when do normal humans get xp? What I was saying, was why not allow humans to use cps for increasing Will. Anyway why can't NPCs gain experience I'd like to think most poeple learn new things all the time. >Don't like it, don't use it. But if you drag this out into another Uriel >thread, I'm a-gonna kill you. ;) Look, I wasn't trying to ruin your idea, I was simply saying that the same thing could already be done within the existing rules without bringing new ones in. And when the humans do increase their Will their resistance rolls will be limited to a reasonably number If you see me as some kind of troublemaker I'm really sorry, that was not my intention at all. Ramesh, (feeling a little misunderstood). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:40:44 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > > > >No, Impudites steal essence it isn't given to them. > > > > > Ethereals should be _flattered_ at being compared to Impudites! (They are't > nearly as cute). > Oh, I dunno, some Ethereals are devilishly (and I do mean devilishly) cute. It's a good thing Jealousy is allowed (and even encouraged!) in demons. Jason onwards ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > And it > gives secular people with resolve in their belief - not faith - a chance to > do the same. There's no reason not to let them have the same stat, Ramesh; I believe that was indicated in the discussion of Infernal Soldiers (who certainly wouldn't have faith in anything that the angels would support!). > What I was saying, was why not allow humans to use cps for increasing Will. Possibly because Will is generally associated with Forces, and some games are set up with various stuff dependent on that association or on Forces' natures in general. Note: this is *very* much campaign-dependent. If you like playing around with Will, by all means, play around with it. :) Adding another stat just makes things a little more portable. Say an NPC is put out on the list with Faith. If you don't like the stat, it's clearly signalled where you can take it out or add it to Will instead. If you don't like letting humans use cps to increase Will, and the NPC were put out on the list with an increased Will instead of Faith, it's not as immediately clear. (I actually like playing with Forces as an IC thing, so I'm a little more touchy personally about monkeying with Will than about adding some nebulous semi-skill-like thing. ;) ) - eslin@buffnet.net/chephirah@fiat.justitia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 03:45:04 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Martin Arnold wrote: > So if we are forced to accept John Doe's version of how IN is played (ie > Canon) each time we buy a book then that doth suck AND blow! If i buy > the tetherbook - and i will becasue i like IN - and find out that it > doesnt have what i need (and someone could have told me) i wont be > happy. We are geting short changed in this repsect. It seems there is no > value placed on our fan loyalty as players of the game. Boo hiss! > > And this isn the fiorst instance; the straw that broke the camel's back > and caused my ire was a further query. The one about seneschals and > Force levels for NPC's. Fair enough if people dont or cant reply to my > questions (im really not that arrogant!), but for SJG to tease me with > 'hey buy the book and find out!' is very cheap. Honestly, I don't even really follow where you're going with this. From what I grasp here, you want SJG to send you the information in the books at no charge, and are unhappy that they say no. SJG isn't coming off as the cheap one here, bud. And if all you want is some general info on the book, then you just have to wait until it's released, then ask, "So, what do you all think of this book?" You'll get a number of minireviews, believe me. Most people will be more than happy to tell you whether London is covered or not. NO ONE (I hope) will be willing to cut and paste the entire section on London and mail it to you - that would be wrong. > Canon sucks, not because i dont like the storyline and the ideas, but > because it seems i am forced to play the game YOUR way. Of course the > obvious comeback is 'Hey if u dont like it dont buy it'; but that's a NO, that is not the obvious comeback. The obvious comeback is, "So don't play canon." I have been on this list for quite a while, and I have never - - literally NEVER - seen anyone here even SUGGEST that you can't throw out any part of canon that you don't like. > cheap and nasty attitude to adopt to someone who pays your wages. If we > all did that, SJG would certainly feel the pinch and IN would disappear > commercially. (personally the idea of playing a cult rpg appeals to me!) If you want the books, buy them. If you don't like the quality of the books, don't. But don't bitch because you're not getting a free preview copy of each book. If you want that, you can playtest. If it's not worth $15/year to you, then it's not - but you have made that choice yourself, and have NOTHING to complain about. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:42:26 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga In the dank basement room, a figure sits in a rotting armchair. Her fingers are luminous in the moonlight. The bullets feel cold between her lips as she kisses each one tenderly and slots them into their chambers. All that remains is for God to indicate which souls He is ready to receive. - -- 'Death is a gift,' Marley intones to herself a hundred times every evening and every morning, rocking with the intensity of her devotion. 'Death is God's gift to the world.' She calls herself both the giver of gifts and the bringer of salvation, and answers to either term in preference to punisher. Pain transfigures souls. Death releases them. Everything which lives must die -- 'and wouldst for their sakes that it might happen soon,' says Marley. She follows an odd gnostic-style theology which holds that the material world is a prison whose sole purpose is to purify mortal souls through suffering, before they accept the Great Gift. As Jesus suffered and died on the cross, so must human flesh be mortified if the soul is to become pure enough to touch the divine. Marley worships by imitation, investing death-dealing weapons with religious qualities. She bathes them in congealed blood and invents rituals for her servants and associates, glorifying Death before a dead God. Other demons who thought that the quiet punisher would be an easy co-worker take one look at her private sanctum and rapidly tend to decide that the path of least resistance is just to go along with it. Marley is a careful worker, and resents being told by senior demons to increase her kill rate. A century ago, she was hauled up on charges of laziness. They just wanted to quibble about the numbers. 'If numbers thou wishest, then numbers shalt thou have,' said Marley, pressing her forehead to the abbatoir floor. She reflected. Perhaps God really did want the entire mortal world released from its prison of flesh post haste. Hating to second guess the Almighty, Marley conceived a scheme to allow Him to make the choice. She sacrificed one finger of her vessel, and made a small set of dice from the bones. She carved on three of the faces the symbol for death, on two the symbol for suffering and on one the symbol for life. Each day, when spotting a potential client, she rolls the dice and lets God decide. Surely the Master of the Universe, Ain Sof, will not allow to dice to indicate death for a mortal he wishes to inflict with more life for awhile. Those marked for death simply die, as quickly as can be organised. Those marked for life are ignored -- but if some other demon should target them, Marley herself will intervene, for God has already made His feelings known on the subject. Those fortunate few who are marked for death with suffering are treated by the Habbalite as special cases. She snatches them away to a ramshackle trailer where the purification process can begin. Sometimes it is only a matter of days before they are ready to accept the gift, sometimes months, and for the luckiest of all, sometimes years. She crafts creative scenarios to torment them, sometimes allowing the hope of escape, other times burying her hands up to the elbow in their entrails before patching them up with a song of healing for the next day's endurance. At the end, each one has begged for the gift. Those souls who drift down to the gates of hell even after the thorough mortification which Marley's zeal has allowed were evidently very hard cases indeed. For those she doesn't hide her glee at the sounds of screaming, or at the scent of their blood on her lips. - -- jo ps. The name is a seasonal joke. Extra brownie points if you can identify it! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1067 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.