From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 4 09:18:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22182 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:18:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA17062 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:14:18 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:14:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199802041514.JAA17062@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #610 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 610 In this digest: Re: IN> Metaphysics (was Re: IN> Lilith a human?) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Intervention stuff Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) IN> Background - The Cult of Uriel Re: IN> Song of Location Re: IN> IN History IN> Re:IN- Shedite of the Game IN> Em's Celestial Genesis Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) IN> IN Movie casting... Re: IN> Swipe IN> The Golden Bough (plot seed) Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) Re: IN> IN History ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:29:28 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Metaphysics (was Re: IN> Lilith a human?) > >That's the one thing that In Nomine truely lacks, and something I > >am trying to add in my ideas, is a good solid metaphysics. > >Without it, you can't easily tell whether something interesting > >is possible. With it, the interesting ideas self-generate. > > A consistent metaphysics is another one of the things that really > needs to be left uncertain, like the various other topics on which > firm in-canon announcements are avoided. Some people may want to run > games in which the Etherials are right, and God and the Celestials > are engaged in historical revisionism; others may want to run closer > to the face-value ontology, while still others may prefer games that > have been brought even closer to the traditional Christian line > about non-Christian entities. The whole thing is probably best left > to individual GM discretion. I never meant it as a very bad thing. It does (as you said) give SJGames and IN GMs more flexibility. But I would recommend that anyone wanting a game world with any feeling of depth to it take a good long look at the cosmology, and sort things out, before you actually start gaming. It avoids situations where you contradict yourself to a minimum, and usually gives you cool ideas of where to take the plot. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:09:35 -0500 (EST) From: Highway Star Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) According to Emily Dresner: > Me neither. I've really gotten to the point of really LIKING Laurence, > because he turns out to be a pretty likable guy, strangely enough. That > could just be my take on him, but turning him into the honorable Shining > Knight of Heaven just makes him the Man. After your line about how he speaks (with the hot dog), he suddenly became one of my favorites. I literally fell off the chair laughing, too, and left odd messages for DanOz who was the only other person in C-ville that I knew would get the joke. You're just made my campaign that much weirder.:::) Thanks. SeanMike Balseraph of Vapula, newly gained the word of "Tech Support" - -- The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots. - Thomas Jefferson, 1787 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:39:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > And yet it can happen. Trust me. I had to GM the result. > > It's a pity that the past doesn't affect the future in instances such as > this, because then I could be confident of it never happening to me. Well, just you be ready. I can't wait until some poor GM has to cope with *three* in a row (about 1 in 8,000,000). > > For the second one, I decided that the PC in question, and his > > girlfriend, now have a vital role to play in the Destiny of the entire > > world and/or Symphony. > > > You evil sadist. Oops. I forgot to mention the kicker. He's a Malak. She's Lilim. He doesn't know yet in character: he thinks she's human. He is genuinely in love. She has been Geas/6 -ed by Lilith to make him Fall. He is probably willing to do this, _if_ she asks, and if he can find a way of actually Falling. Bwahahahahahaha. Steve. Calabite of Having Players Who Like Angst. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) Just trying to promote my Demon Princess's word, your highness. - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > "Bought off" may be a mildly poor word-choice -- using point-based > mechanics language instead of in-world language -- but it's hardly > *errata*. == --Querent USELESS FACT: In Fantasia's "Sorcerer's Apprentice" story, the wizard's name is Yensid. (Disney backwards.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:24:08 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Background - The Cult of Uriel >Oooh... Cults are cool. Evil cults that promote Celestial sacrifice >to their downed lost Prince who has been given sort of a post-mortem >'Godhood' is even cooler. Sticking it somewhere in my game would be >the coolest. I'm not sure if it was the meetings, or all the ponderings on the Marches today, or what. Probably both, maybe neither. I've been reading a combination of Nieztsche, Jung, IN rules and the Bible lately, and it's sort of playing havoc with my brain. So here we go... complete with the standard disclaimer: Disclaimer: This touches on some religious issues. If you are easily offended by this sort of discussion, please delete this post now. Nothing I write is canon, replaces canon, or is to be taken as such. If you are wielding the Mighty Hammer of Canon, and searching for a place to thump, then please delete this post now. Go ahead and use this stuff to your heart's content. Genre: In Nomine Backwards/Dark In Nomine Suggested Play Group: Preferably angels, while I think about it, but any will fit the bill. Source of Inspiration: Too much caffeine and a really big eyestrain headache. Oh, and I really dig insane Malakim. Not Fallen Malakim, that's a little too cliche' for me. Everyone is doing Fallen Malakim this week. But a really deep dark clinging insane psychosis is lots of fun. That sparks some interest. Background: Your Superior told you not to go play in the Far Marches. He told you it was dangerous. He told you it was _bad_. He told you that sometimes young Celestials go out and never come back. He told you that the Ethereals were bad, were jealous, and liked to kill young Celestials for fun. Your Superior lied. "In the name of the Purifier, the Cleanser, and the Holy Ghost. Exaudi orationem meam: ad te monis caro veniet. Amen." "Amen." They huddled around the altar, clinging together for acceptance, each other reinforcing their collective psychosis. It is almost as if they all share one broken mind between them, as their eyes flash darkly against the sliver glinting of the armor. The chains rattle and the dark wings push against one another's body, closeness giving them comfort. Their heads bow in supplication, as they are humble before their one true God. Your Superior is more afraid of what is out in the Far Marches then he would ever care to admit. Your Superior knows he helped the cause. Your Superior was there. Your Superior needs to cover it up, just like the rest. Your Superior no longer even admits to himself that the problem exists. Your Superior is scared. "Allow us to rejoice in the joining of the Pure with the Holy, as the Pure and the Holy have become the One. As He Himself did strike out among the unholy and the unrighteous with his sword, as He struck them down in blood and damnation, should we endevour to do the same. Dies irae, dies illa solvet saeclum in favilla Teste David cum Sibylla...." The Ethereals are afraid, and they admit it. They know they are out there, stalking the Marches, cleansing with their dirtied blade. Too many have fallen to their ranks, and more fall still. But they are silent, for they have approached the Celestial realms before, and their pleas fall on deaf ears. The Ethereals have already paid the price in blood. "... confutatus maledictis flammis acribus addictis, voca me cum benedictis. I come to thee, kneeling in supplication, my Lord, my heart condemned to ashes, take me and mine into your care, and Purify us." They bow their heads, and chant in unison, "Amen". The near Marches are safe, they tell you, where both Blandine and Beleth can keep a watcful eye and constant vigilance. But even those of Nightmares feel a dark dreadful fear, the knowledge that somewhere out there they stalk, waiting to take some of their own, to Purify, to cleanse the world with their scouring madness. They watch the edges, and eye the dark winged forms that skulk in the shadows. For every so often, another disappears from their ranks, unexplained. "And I give to you, Lord Uriel, He whom has become One with the mighty Creator, He who whispers his words in the Symphony, I give to you one who is in need of your Purification. Take the Unclean, my Lord, and give to us righteousness. Spare us, O God, merciful Uriel, and give this unclean spirit peace." "Amen." The young Seraph twists and turns in his bounds, trying to escape the unavoidable. He lays over the altar, and his mouth opens in a soundless scream as the light glints off the holy dagger which plunges to his heart. Purification in Blood. The Cult of Purification: In 745 A. D., the upper heavens opened for the last time, and Uriel was recalled into the waiting arms of God. Most of the Malakim who served the Archangel of Purity were able to accept that their Lord was wrong, and that he was gone from their presence forever. Most of the Malakim bowed their heads in shame, and learned the Words of new Bright Lords, those who were in the grace of God. Some even choose to follow Laurence, for, to all appearances, seemed to have come out of the cataclysm relatively intact. Or so everyone says. Some found themselves lost, broken, wandering the Marches without a home. They were unable to accept that their Lord was wrong, and they were abandoned forever by the cold glare of Heaven. A few continued the Rite of Purification, ridding the Far Marches of the creatures of Myth long after their Lord was gone. This was slow, as their ranks were sorely diminished and those who did not truly believe set out to follow new paths. Those few loyal Malakim began, slowly, to rationalize the turn of events. If Archangel Uriel was recalled to God, was he not now a part of God himself? And was he not, possibly at one time, God personified upon the Earth in the form of an Archangel, since he like the Maker was Pure? Is it not possible that God had chosen that time to recall Uriel, who had existed from the beginning and would to the end, and to reunite him with Himself, the Symphony, and become as God? Would he not become part of the Godhead - the Purifier, the Cleanser, and the Holy Spirit? If so, wasn't Uriel right all along, and the other Archangels wrong from the very beginning? Were they dirtied by politics and their own shortsightedness? They banded together deep in the Far Marches, and continued to pursue the Ethereals they originally set about destroying. Cut off from Heaven and their ideals shattered, the lost Malakim huddled together and began to tell their own version of the tales. Uriel had been pure as he himself had embodied Purity, and all others were unclean. The Archangels who had condemned their Lord were thrown into the light of heretical heresay, and they cultivated a dark hate for Heaven. They built an ideology which formed Uriel into God, a post-mortem Godhead which they worshipped in thrown together sermans and half-baked rites. When some of the founding members of the Cult of Purification wavered in the new strict code of ethics, enforced by unrealistic Malakim ideals, and questioned the rites, they were quickly dismissed as dirtied by those of the Celestial realm and were set upon en masse to be put to the sword. Soon it was realized that the Angels who came to convince the Malakim to return to the fold were simply tricking them. Those Angels were not invited to go to God! They were unclean, and the only way to purify them is to send them on to the upper heavens, the only way they know how. And so the Cult did. When the Ethereals had wisened up to the stalking of the Malakim, they made themselves scarce and hid in the shadows of Beleth's Tower. Word spread quickly of the mad Malakim, and those who could hide themselves away did so. For the Cult of Purification made short work of the Ethereals it captured. But the Cult had little interest, in the end, in the Ethereals. They were found to be unclean long before, and are now an uninteresting target for nothing more then sport. The Cult has more interest in Celestials, and purifying them. They see it as a slow method to purify all of heaven, and destroy the heretical stain left by Uriel's condemnation. But the only way to truly purify a Celestial is to send them up to the Uriel-As-God to be cleansed. And the only way to do that is to kill them. In their eyes Uriel has become as God, raised in post-mortem Godhood, and he will only be appeased through the cleansing of the righteous. And that can only be through death. Your Superior: Your Superior knows all about the Cult of Purification. Regardless if you are a demon or an angel, your Superior knows. And they aren't telling you. For the Demon Princes, it's a black stain on their untarnished record, a point which can be picked out of their long history of righteousness and used as a point of consternation, a weakness. See what your perfect justice has brought you? Pain! And they laugh. For the Archangels, it is an unspoken horror, a mistake best left alone, cleaned up later. They tell their servitors that entering the Far Marches is dangerous at best and deadly at worst. Why, there are big bad Ethereals out there. They don't mention, they don't tell. And soon, all will be forgotten, for time heals all wounds. Maybe they tell you to stay out of the Marches. Or maybe you work for Beleth, and she sends you there to study them. To take some notes. Maybe you can inspire a few humans down below... or maybe she's already been doing that all along. The Lords of Dream watch the Cult with detacted interest. They know they are out there. Sometimes they study their progress, and sometimes they simply evade. There are some things best kept to themselves, after all. Politics: Blandine watches in disgust, and Beleth watches in interest. Dominic studies their methods, and Laurence turns away, pretending they never existed. Michael, in private in the dark of night, silently plots their destruction. Novalis mourns their downfall, while David questions their concept of Purity. Yves smiles quietly to himself and says nothing on the topic. And Kronos laughs. Even Fate comes to the purest of the pure. - - Em, Balseraph Captain of the Game, Demon of IN Backwards ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:51:30 -0600 (CST) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Location On lMon, 2 Hippocrates 29 A.T., Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >#2, of course, allows us to lick our shoulders like cats and say >"See? We meant to do that." Or, as a friend of mine says, "Cats are grooming themselves furiously." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 22:01:44 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> IN History >From: Earl Wajenberg > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >> If I can wildly oversimplify, the design principle for my In Nomine >> game is C.S. Lewis versus William Blake. > >Have you read Lewis's "The Great Divorce"? He said the title reflected >a basic disagreement of his with Blake, though he did not go into >much detail. The book itself gives depictions of Heaven, Hell, >the damned, and the blessed, that could be useful to IN. Yes, I just found it a couple of days ago. As far as I could tell, Lewis objected to any sort of attempt to draw a "moral equivalence of the superpowers" between Heaven and Hell. Also I think he really disliked the ideas of Swedenborg, who Blake was heavily influenced by. For those not into 18th century fringe Christian thinking: the bit relevant to this discussion is that Emanuel Swedenborg was a strong proponent of the idea that events in the spiritual and physical worlds have a very strong corresponence -- an idea which you can recognize in Blake's personification of the continents. Blake did abandon the Swedenborgian rationalism in favor of an estatic mysticism, but a lot of the conceptual superstructure remained the same. I found a useful webpage, , which just goes to show you can find the weirdest things on the web. Getting back to _The Great Divorce_, I decided that it was useful to declare the lower Heavens as the same as the portion of Heaven the narrator of the book saw -- the valley of the shadow of life, to borrow Lewis's phrase. This offers a useful explanation of the imperfect nature of the Heaven angels will be in. >Could you describe your campaign in a little more detail? What's >Lewis-like about your angels or Blake-like about your demons? Individual angels and demons do not especially required to conform to those molds, but the overall feel and ideology of each side bears a heavy resemblance to those two writers. Well, I've basically adopted everything that C.S. Lewis wrote about God, faith, sin and the soul as the party line of Heaven. (I had planned to use Augustine as my source, but then I actually got ahold of _The City of God_ and saw that it was bigger than the real thing, so I decided to use a more accessible writer.) I'm not sure I can easily summarize what the angels believe, but probably the most useful book I can suggest is C.S. Lewis's _The Problem of Pain_, which attempts to demonstrate that an omnipotent and benevolent God, free will, and the existence of evil in the world are not mutually exclusive. I'm looking at _Miracles_ right now, to see if Lewis can supply me with a rationale for divine intervention given the importance of free will. (Actually, that's probably the best explanation: angels worry about this sort of question.) Demons are much less categorizable, but in general the Princes who are the most intuitive, the most capricious, and most lost into madness are the most powerful and influential in Hell. Kobal is the most powerful Demon Prince in my game, and Baal is the weakest. The most successful demons in my campaign tend towards moral absolutism of one sort or another (burning fanaticism and an intellectual amorality are the most common), and they tend towards the fiercely energetic. Forceful action, casual betrayal, and passionate belief tend to trump careful, long term planning in Hell. I will at some point type in the Proverbs of Hell from _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_ and post them to the list. (Balseraph saying: "Every thing possible to be believ'd is an image of the truth.") - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:17:46 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re:IN- Shedite of the Game >>The main thing confusing me is that in "Heaven and Hell", Ojoro, a >>sample Shedite of the Game, has only spent 35 points on resources. >>This would imply that no, Shedim of the Game do not get the 12 >>points. Seems a bit unfair. > >I looked at it, and I think Ojoro just got screwed out of some Resources. >Call it a typo, and upgrade him as you see fit! Actually, I've ruled the other way. Looking at the In Nomine rulebook, the other demons of the game don't have a specific resonance, merely a description of the "free" roles they tend to take. Shedim, on the other hand, get the "no need to corrupt host" resonance, and no description of the roles they tend to take. Ergo, I decided that Shedim of the Game are the exception to the 12 point bonus (although they keep the ability to detect their fellow band members). Ojoro still is short one point of resources (starting 9 force characters get 36 points, no?), though. Perhaps he needs erratifying. The 12 point thing probably should be mentioned in the FAQ, I daresay. SurturZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:07:08 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > even in my own weird version of celestial genesis. Okay, now you have to explain this. :) FWIW, you're the source of most of the Hellish ideas inflicted upon my players. Neel gives me good Heavenly perspective. Between the two of you, I'm set for life, so neither of you are to leave this list without my permission. ;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:03:55 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) >Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:41:43 -0500 >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >At 5:20 PM -0500 2/3/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>But how does he create new servitors of the Wind? > > > >Why, it's *obvious* -- he doesn't! He merely gets some of his >Servitors together to create angel-babies -- he still has the >ability to stick them together, and if he uses pure angel-Forces, >then he gets an angel! (This is evil and wicked. I like it.) Well, I know this might be contradicting something planned for the IPG, but if the APG commentary on crossbreeds (ie, "The newborn is automatically an angel because he hasn't had a chance to Fall yet.") is also true for demon-demon children, it's even easier for Janus/ Vaelfor to make angels -- he creates demons and then coerces them into birthing angel-babies. The 1-Force shells of the demons left over afterwards he then destroys. That way he doesn't have to worry about anyone gossipping about how he never creates angels -- angels with no known parents just show up. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:28:52 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis > > even in my own weird version of celestial genesis. > > Okay, now you have to explain this. :) http://www-personal.umich.edu/~zenith/in-nomine/resources/genesis.html I posted it some time ago to the List, and I just got around to HTMLizing it. It's totally out of canon, but hey. I like it and it's what I use. > FWIW, you're the source of most of the Hellish ideas inflicted upon my > players. Neel gives me good Heavenly perspective. Between the two of you, > I'm set for life, so neither of you are to leave this list without my > permission. ;) I'm trying to figure out if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Probably a good thing from an evil point of view. :) If your players are wailing in pain, then I'm happy. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:36:15 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis >On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > >> even in my own weird version of celestial genesis. > >Okay, now you have to explain this. :) > >FWIW, you're the source of most of the Hellish ideas inflicted upon my >players. Neel gives me good Heavenly perspective. Between the two of you, >I'm set for life, so neither of you are to leave this list without my >permission. ;) > You ought to lurk my DVPBEM games, or at least check the Archive page for same (which I really need to finish the update on). Then tell me where I fall in on your scale. }:-{D Redneck (working right angles to Heaven and Earth) Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Antarctic Press Web Site http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/acupunct/ - Anatomical Acupuncture http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > If PCs get enough points, it's generally rationalized that they've > accumulated enough brownie points with their boss to get the Discord > removed -- it's the same with learning Songs. The PC spends the points, > representing catching the boss in a good mood and asking for a favor in > the right way, and getting the Song imprinted into hir little > celestial head. Well, hell, that just makes Discord a lot less unpleasant... Dissonace isn't such a biggie anymore if that's the case. Basically, each point of dissonance ends up costing you 1 CP...just convert 'em to Discord in threes, then buy 'em off in threes. That's a really minor penalty. I don't see this as a good idea at all...the player should have to roleplay the encounter and give the Superior some GOOD reasons why they should keep them 'employed' what with all that dissonance they built up. That keeps the players SCARED of Discord, which is what I thought the whole point was. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:31:56 -0500 From: Bruce Dykes Subject: IN> IN Movie casting... I've sent Beth a prototype casting page for the INC...would those of you who've come up with casting ideas for Superiors in the IN movie, please be so kind as to send them to me personally for inclusion on the page prior to posting??? Thanks Bruce, Impudite Captain of Crosslicensing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:52:58 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Swipe >> I Wrote >>How about Swiping the bullets out of the gun, no one can see them, and the >>bad guy _might_ have forgotten to load it that morning. Since the >>Attunement say "a corporeal objext" then it would get expensive to get all >>the bullets, but the one in the chamber would be a nice start. > > ArchBeth responded >Good point. Perhaps the Swipe attunement requires that the celestial >at least be able to *see* (or maybe even touch?) the item swiped? Oooo, another thought, good for sneaking stuff past security checks. Janusite with Swipe approaches a security post with a powerful bomb in his briefcase. Just before he gets to the guards he Swipes it from himself, no one notices so no Disturbance. He gets checked by the guards, and let into whereever it is as he has no bomb (assuming he passes other security arangements). A few minutes later the bomb returns to him, he plants his bomb and walks out. Course if he has to see or touch the item Swiped he better go into the john and Swipe it, but a little planning and good timiing will work wonders. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:23:35 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> The Golden Bough (plot seed) Summary: Angels are sent by David to report on an underground carpark which caved in, narrowly avoiding killing any mortals, despite the fact it had passed its safety inspection last week. A local maternity hospital has a spate of new mothers reporting strange nightmares, and gold reserves at local banks are mysteriously disappearing. And where did those man-eating daffodils[1] come from? Backstory: Although the faerie creatures have sworn allegiance to hell in return for sanctuary, not all of them are bright enough to understand the philosophical implications of this. Amongst a small tribe of kobolds (similar to stone goblins), a prophet has arisen who reminds the younger tribe members of their old role as protectors and watchers over mortals who mine underground. Everyone knows that kobolds are as dumb as a box of rocks (literally in some cases), so no-one was expecting it when a small band of them rushed one of Beleth's tethers and returned to the corporeal world en masse to fulfil their historical 'manifold destiny'. Unfortunately, the real world has changed an awful lot since mythic days and they want to go home. The way they are going to do this involves a fragment of the mythical 'golden bough' which is said to be able to open the gates to the underworld. Some of this wood has turned up in a bass guitar which has just been bought by a member of a very third-rate local band, and the kobolds tracked it from the faint ethereal disturbance when he showed off his new purchase to his girlfriend who was waiting in the car in.. the underground carpark. The carpark collapsed when the kobolds got a bit overenthusiastic -- the guitarist and girlfriend escaped, although she broke her leg and is now in hospital. The road home: The kobold prophet has suffered a crisis of confidence, but feels responsible and intends to lead its 'people' back to the marches. It won't give up now it has located the bough, but it doesn't yet know how to use it. The rest of the band are trying to get some gigs, now that their bass player seems to have improved a bit. What the other kobolds are doing: Their favourite hobbies (see below) involve precious minerals and milk and with their ability to walk through stone, they haven't had too much trouble in sneaking into bank vaults. Bank officials are definitely not making it public knowledge that the gold has gone missing in bite-shaped chunks, complete with teeth-marks. Or that the milk they keep for their morning tea seems to have been disappearing as well. A few braver kobolds have gone looking for mother's milk.. but haven't returned to the main group who are a bit concerned. Demons? Oh yes, there are demons. Beleth wants /her/ kobolds back, and they are going to be setting an example to the rest of faerie-kind for most of the next millenium. The two demons in charge of this capture-mission have done their research and are staking out maternity hospitals to try to catch any intrepid kobolds. They are giving nightmares to the patients too. They have caught a few stray kobolds but haven't managed to get much information out of them (kobolds really are quite thick, and religiously indoctrinated ones don't make much sense at the best of times). What the Band are Doing: They've been going round a few clubs giving impromptu auditions to back up their demo tapes. They have a try out booked in a seedy local club called 'The Underworld'. When this happens, there is a strange resonance with the new bass guitar that causes another ethereal ripple in the symphony. Perceptive kobolds, servants of Beleth/ Blandine, and celestials with high ethereal forces have a good chance of noticing this. So there is a good chance of an encounter with geeky band-members, kobold prophets, nightmare demons and servitors of David at the club, or shortly afterwards. The Guitarist: Evidently not quite as geeky as the others since he has a girlfriend. His family were originally greek and if you go back through enough generations, they were actually involved in the orphic mysteries (ie. he is descended from dedicated ethereal soldiers, which is why the bough gravitated towards him and why he has a resonance with it). Opening the Gates: If nothing else happens to intervene, then the band will get their gig at the underworld. The bass player gives it his all during their last number, pouring all his essence into the music, and the gate does indeed open. More nightmare demons pile through, to make a grab for the guitar and for any kobolds who have sneaked in and many of the audience actually die of fright. Kobolds: They aren't evil, they're just a bit stupid and misunderstood. They are already beginning to feel homesick as the stories they had been told about humans revolved around nice cosy mineshafts where miners left them milk and sandwiches. The modern city hasn't quite measured up to this. They are simple creatures who feel more comfortable with other kobolds around, they're small, pretty tough-skinned and can walk through stone (similar to David's ofanite attunement). Favourite hobbies: eating precious minerals and gems, and drinking milk (mothers milk for preference). As ethereal-type creatures they can only be truly killed via mind-hits. A kobold that is corporeally killed will reappear with the other kobolds at midnight. When a group of them is together, they can do neat rock-manipulation things. The Golden Bass Guitar: An ethereal artefact, it adds +2 to the musical ability of anyone who plays it. If it is plugged in and switched on, and a point of essence is spent to fuel it, then it adds +6 to the musical ability of everyone who is playing in ensemble with it -- as long as they are underground. If it is plugged in and played in a local club called 'The Underworld' by an ethereal or ethereal soldier, then when essence is fed to it, a portal will briefly open to the far marches -- a place where the greek gods of the underworld still live. Kobolds would love it .. loads of stone. jo [1] The man-eating daffodils are a reserve 'encounter' in case people really do roll improbable things such as 2 or 3 interventions in a row. They must have escpaed from a lab somewhere ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:27:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) Emily Dresner wrote: > Well, I usually don't like absolute statements either, since I've long > since learned otherwise. But in this case, the absolute draws a sort > of sick fascination. I mean, an entire Choir? And _never_? Not > even once? Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book gave a reason, I don't recall it.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:30:19 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories > 3. They are the result of some sort of mutant Kyrio that established itself > as the Ofanite Angel of Wind and the Calabite demon of Theft. Problems: > It may be a little far fetched to put one over on Lucifer, although it has > been done before. Howabout this: You have a powerful Kyrio that gets enough Discord that his Forces become fractured to the point where _half_ of him can Fall and the other half loses angelic status. The fallen half becomes a Calabite and the remaining half re-integrates as a Ofanite the second time around. Twisted enough for ya? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:58:49 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) > > Well, I usually don't like absolute statements either, since I've long > > since learned otherwise. But in this case, the absolute draws a sort > > of sick fascination. I mean, an entire Choir? And _never_? Not > > even once? > > Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that > Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori > fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there > a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book > gave a reason, I don't recall it.) > I always assumed that IN left the Grigori and their offspring for NEPHILIM. :) It is another absolute put forth by the main rulebook, but let's see how many of those have been intentionally broken by following add-on sourcebooks: * Yves is a 'unique creature' created by God until Heaven and Hell, when he became no longer unique. * The Malakim are said to 'not be able to Fall', but the next source book is called 'Fall of the Malakim'. So I assume there will be some book planned in the future about the Grigori, and it will wipe away what little is written in the main source book. No, there is no Band of Fallen Grigori that I saw, but maybe it will be cooked up. (It's the exact same argument as with the Malakim. What, not a one? There wasn't a single hold-out who is loyal to Heaven? Has no one even looked? The Marches are a big place, or maybe they just melted into the throngs of humanity where no one would notice them.) Personally, changing the universe in the add-on books bothers me in several not very subtle ways. Either it is or it isn't, don't play games with the GM's pocketbooks. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:04:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN History Thank you for the run-down. Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I'm looking at _Miracles_ right now, to see if Lewis can supply me > with a rationale for divine intervention given the importance of > free will. That was one of the first Lewis books I read; I'm afraid you won't find the issue addressed directly. The main subject of the book is defending the possibility that miracles happen, and making a case for the existence of the supernatural, based mainly on an epistemological argument. If I can presume to summarize Lewis's theological position on free will and divine intervention: 1) First of all, he would disclaim any authority as a theologian; he only claimed to repeat and summarized widely-received Christian theology. (But he did that very well, I think.) 2) He had no trouble with the divine working through both miraculous/supernatural channels and providential/natural ones. 3) In several places, he wonders loudly if the difference between "natural" and "supernatural" isn't really a matter of perspective and expectations. 4) As far as I can tell, he seemed to regard Heaven as seldom trying to override free will, but rather clarifying issues and bringing people to a crisis point where they have to USE that free will. Hell, on the other hand, seduces by confusing issues and blinding people (or, better yet persuading them to close their eyes) to moral issue. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #610 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.