From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 4 20:38:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15759 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:38:36 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA01788 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:40:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:40:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199802050240.UAA01788@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #611 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 611 In this digest: Re: IN> St. Brigid IN> Another flip for Valefor Re: IN> Another flip for Valefor Re: IN> St. Brigid Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) IN> Re: Grigori Re: IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) IN> Yves and Kronos (was Re: Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis IN> Re: Grigori Name)) Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis IN> Oh, just a couple questions... Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis Re: IN> Oh, just a couple questions... Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) Re: IN> Intervention stuff Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories Re: IN> Intervention stuff Re: IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) IN> Re: Janus/Valefor Theories IN> Kipling poem, which seemed relevant to Yves IN> Supplement wants Re: IN> Supplement wants IN> Em's IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? IN> Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN- By Any Other Name)) IN> Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN- By Any Other Name)) IN> Re: IN- Re: Grigori IN> Grigori, Fallen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:18:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> St. Brigid Armand wrote: > Warning, the following question may contain things that may offend > some forms of Christianity. I don't want to hurt any feelings, so > if your are offended by someone questioning the practices of the > Midieval church, delete this now. That's kind of you, but given the sort of heresy that is routinely bandied about on this list ("Yves is God." "Eli is God." "Eli is Jesus." "God is still in Trauma from the Incarnation."), a bit of playing fast and loose with St. Brigid and the Ethereals won't raise many eyebrows. I believe someone else made a similar suggestion, earlier. The theory put forth was that the goddess Brigid managed to "convert" and get enlisted in Heaven as a Saint, sponsored by those Archangels who were particularly miffed at Uriel's Purge. Just for grins, I'll point out that there is, or was, a "St. Mergen" on the calendar. Her name means "Sea-Born," and she was a mermaid who was caught by some (Dutch, I think) fishermen, learned the local mortal tongue, and ultimately got baptized. She's probably been quietly removed from the calendar... I believe she was the basis for the Poul Anderson fantasy novel, "The Merman's Children." Of course, there's a very mundane possibility -- St. Brigid might be a historical human figure who was named after the goddess, either by pagan parents or through some string of intermediaries. After all, there are lots of saints with names like "Dionysios" or "Apollonarius" who aren't remotedly likely to be edited images of the pagan god, but rather come from formerly pagan cultures. But I know nothing about St. Brigid. If she shares attributes with the Celtic goddess, then maybe she is a work-over job. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:20:38 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Another flip for Valefor Another idea: Valefor really was a Calabite who was made into a Prince a few centuries ago. Back then, his attunements weren't quite the same as Janus' although they had a lot in common. But he had a lot of powerful enemies amongst other princes and Baal killed him in fairly short time. So.. imagine his surprise when instead of accepting the inevitable and swearing allegiance to other princes, all of Valefor's servitors swore blind that their master was still around -- of course, Baal is a balseraph which makes the other princes just a touch dubious of his claims. Valefor has been seen quite a lot since then, sometimes even in several places at once, and it was quite noticeable that he had become rather a more suave and sophisticated figure. So what happened? Working out that the future wasn't great when their master got nailed, some of Theft's most powerful servitors got together and hatched 'a plan' which involved recreating the persona of the master thief himself. The new suave demon prince was on the insistence of the impudites & balseraphs involved who liked the idea of the image change. Obviously, 'Valefor' has bad days when it is one of the calabite's turns to play him. Like any master thief, Valefor is often cloaked and masked which makes things easier for the demons, but it was when they actually did manage to summon Janus that the plan really took off. The archangel was caught on a mellow day and agreed to 'sponsor' the masterless demons in return for a few favours. After all, at least they are causing chaos in hell. He can't really create new demons so they have to recruit mainly from the newly fallen and disaffected of other princes -- but there does seem to be some quiet arrangement with Lilith who has no problems with the 'free demons'. Only the most senior of the theft demons know the secret -- the others really believe their DP exists, and is miraculously unkillable. This is good because it explains: Why so many demon princes hate and distrust Valefor but none of the archangels seem to worry about Janus Why Valefor is unusual looking for a calabite Its bad because its so damn unlikely ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:36:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Another flip for Valefor Hart, Joanna wrote: > Its bad because its so damn unlikely ;-) Ah, but the world doesn't go 'round by "likely," as the old saying goes. I think I like this the best of all the Valefor/Janus theories so far. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:39:14 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> St. Brigid In a message dated 2/3/98 16:12:53, armand@spiretech.com writes: >My question then comes down to this, is she a saint or an ethereal? Is >it >possible to be one then the other? Or are there two Brigids of the Isles? Actually, in my campaign (as I wrote several months ago...), Bride/Brigit/etc. is an etherial servitor of Novalis (to go with the fertility aspects of her cult) who had the Vessel/Role of St. Brigid of Ireland, the girl who became Abbess. In my write-up she has a lot of pent-up rage against Laurence and Dominic because of the Purification campaign, which she sublimates fairly well. She is also the proximate cause of the Purification campaign, because if *she* converted, obviously the rest of the Etherial spirits could, too (in Uriel's mind...). Mark(There are other Ethereal servitors of Heaven in my campaign, but I'll save it...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:55:47 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) In a message dated 2/4/98 06:31:47, earlw@mc.com writes: >Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that >Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori >fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there >a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book >gave a reason, I don't recall it.) > >Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:24:43 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) > Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that > Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori > fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there > a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book > gave a reason, I don't recall it.) On a sort of related note, what exactly is Eli doing on Nybbas's monitors. Him, and all those Demon Princesses. Something smells fishy. Maybe Dominic is right, and our little creationer has fallen. Also, on a related note, how /could/ Creation 'fall'. It seems to be a pretty neutral world in the scheme of things-- neither good nor evil. But then, so does Fire, and a buncha other words.. Ohhhh well :) I should stop wracking my brain so hard.. Ohhh, the 'In Nomine: Yrth' is going well. Gonna type up what happened so far eventually and post it somewhere. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:39:44 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Re: Grigori >Personally, changing the universe in the add-on books bothers me in >several not very subtle ways. Either it is or it isn't, don't play games >with the GM's pocketbooks. I really, really don't see why this is such a problem. Any game that has more supplements than just a core rulebook suffers from this problem, to a lesser or greater extent. Rules and background change, "GM open" areas get filled in. You always have to ask your GM if they're using certain supplements and/or rules before starting a new game, or when the new supplement comes out. Skipping the obvious White Wolf examples, other notable examples include: AD&D. Knowing which of the varous "Complete Whatever" sourcebooks and what campaign world you're playing in is usually useful. Amber. Yes, even Amber. Is the GM using Shadow Knight? Aria. Is the GM using the Aria Worlds book? Will Aria time be used? Ars Magica. Leaving aside the issue of which edition one perfers, which is a Holy War on its own, which supplements one uses can radically effect how runs, say, the Fae. Castle Falkenstein. Is the GM using the Grevious Harm and Injury rules from Comme Il Fout? Are they using the faerie rules from the core rulebook or the faerie sourcebook? Are they using the additional Sorcery rules and Sorcerous orders from The Book of Sigils? Cyberpunk 2020. Using the Chrome books? Any of the "class" books, like Solo of Fortune? GURPS. Another obvious example -- you need to know what GURPS supplements and what rules your GM is and isn't using before you even try to make a character. This goes for any generic system. Mekton Zeta. Using the advanced contruction rules? What about the cinematic combat rules from the GM's screen? Over the Edge. Using the version of the Cut Ups from their supplement? What about the new conpiracies from the other supplements? The Over the Edge universe is always in a state of flux, which is part of the fun... Paranoia. Two words: Megawhoops Alpha. Rifts. Which supplements are being used can radically affect the playable characters and the available equipment. Shadowrun. Certainly this game world has changed a bit over time via supplements... Star Frontiers. Turns out everything we thought we knew about the Sathar was wrong... Traveller. Leaving aside the MegaTraveller/New Era/recent editions issue, there's also the fact that several supplements (certain adventures involving the Ancients, for example) touch on things that would probably be left to Canon Doubt and Uncertainty in In Nomine. These are just examples off the top of my head. I don't see the universe in In Nomine as radically changed, either. Kronos's status has few effects on the players unless you want it to, and you can just throw that bit out, since they shouldn't know it in character anyway. If you don't want Malakim to fall, don't buy/use the next supplement. It was always said that the world of In Nomine was going to change and evolve in the Revelations cycle. No one is forcing you to use it, or like it, but I don't see why it's so dissonant for you to ignore canon... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:46:09 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) - ---Brandon Quina wrote: > Maybe Dominic is right, and our little creationer has > fallen. I'm willing to accept any theory that contains the words 'Dominic is right' ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:53:24 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > * The Malakim are said to 'not be able to Fall', but the next > source book is called 'Fall of the Malakim'. Call me crazy, but the idea of a Fallen Malakim just makes me depressed. I *like* the absolute statement: "No Malakim can Fall. Ever." Of course, I use moral absolutes in my campaign anyway. You just have to look hard to find them at times. > So I assume there will be some book planned in the future about the > Grigori, and it will wipe away what little is written in the main source > book. No, there is no Band of Fallen Grigori that I saw, but maybe it > will be cooked up. (It's the exact same argument as with the Malakim. > What, not a one? There wasn't a single hold-out who is loyal to Heaven? > Has no one even looked? The Marches are a big place, or maybe they just > melted into the throngs of humanity where no one would notice them.) I never got the impression that the Grigori Fell. I thought they just became Outcasts, who considered themselves still in the service of Heaven. Hmmm....seems to me that that could turn them into a group like the Cult of Uriel. Must get to work on that idea. Rich Gant "Heh. Heh. Heh." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 11:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Yves and Kronos (was Re: Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH) [Kevin Walsh:] >The way I evaluate power is based on the strength of the Words involved. >If one assumes that good is _ultimately_ stronger than evil, then Yves' >Word of Destiny is stronger than Kronos' Word of Fate. My understanding of IN canon at this point is that the matter is undecided, and that possibly the concept of free will is an experiment by God to see if it's a good idea or not. This is, of course, a marked divergence from Christian canon.... As I read it, the strength of Words isn't intrinsic, but depends on how important they are in the corporeal realm (esp. with humans). Thus, if humans choose selflessness, they strengthen Yves, while if they're selfish, they strengthen Kronos. I believe this view of the IN world is supported in various small bits in the main book and elsewhere. Another point to consider in comparing Yves' and Kronos' power is that Yves does not use force to move people toward Destiny (there's a statement to the effect that it's actually counterproductive to do so). I take the view that it's also hard to actually force someone to their Fate, but that Kronos and his servitors are much more likely to push the limits of what they can get away with in direct interference. So Yves may indeed be more directly powerful than Kronos, but is actually bound by his own nature not to use it directly. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 12:05 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) >> >Interesting theory. Unfortunately, I believe the Valefor writeup in the >> >main book states that Valefor is relatively new. >> >> Stealing the predictions of Nostradamus predates his ascension to Demon >> Prince; therefore, he's a relatively new Demon Prince. >> >I got the distinct impression from the write-up that he stole the _true >prophecies_ of Nostradamus from Yves' library before Nostradamus actually >wrote them. After all, it states that "since then he has personally stolen >everything from the sealant for the Spanish Armada's gunpowder barrels", >which must have occured before Nostradamus was born, as the Spanish >Armada predates Nostradamus. (Assuming Nostradamus is human, of course.) According to a quick Web search, the Armada sailed in 1588. Also according to stuff I dug out on the Web, Nostradamus appears to have been born in 1503, and to have written the preface to the prophecies in 1555. So there's apparently no problem here. I should note that as I understand it, Yves library does *not* include future works (unless, maybe, they're in the restricted areas). So about the only way what you described could happen would be for Nostradamus to have been a Saint, and written the originals before a stint as the corporeal Nostradamus. >My GM reckons this particular theft is the best evidence that Janus is >Valefor. After all, how did a Calabite get into Yves' library without >being noticed? And how did he manage to find the thing? That's a very interesting question.... > If we assume that >he's an Ofanite Archangel, both questions are answered. It certainly becomes a lot easier.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:25:18 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > I'm trying to figure out if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Probably > a good thing from an evil point of view. :) Well, it was meant as a compliment. I know -I'm- flattered when my players refer to me as "The Evil Overlord." ;) > If your players are wailing in pain, then I'm happy. Considering that I killed Yves last game session, they're closer to being in shock right now. ("Didn't think I'd whack a major Archangel, now did you?") - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:31:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Re: Grigori Name)) gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > I never got the impression that the Grigori Fell. I thought they just > became Outcasts, who considered themselves still in the service of > Heaven. > Hmmm....seems to me that that could turn them into a group like the > Cult of Uriel. Must get to work on that idea. I think you're right -- Outcast, not Fallen. But still, a whole choir cast out? Hm. Here's an idea for a Grigori group: Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility Academy for the Gifted This is a tiny college, located in a remote and isolated part of Minnesota, run by what appears to be the monks of a small monastary that hosts the college. They offer a B.A. at astonishingly cheap prices (often for free, paid for by scholarships from obscure foundations), but by invitation only. All the paperwork is in order, of course, and the monks claim to be Franciscans of some sort. But although the institution's paper trail is impeccable, a close look at the paper trail of individual monks would indicate ... anomalies. The monks are, of course, Grigori. The college is part of their efforts at penance. Not only do they just plain educate a few of the poor and deserving, they also locate (through other Grigori out in the field) potenital Soldiers, whom they give special lessons to -- lessons in willpower and virtue that the proto-Soldiers certainly don't regard as classes and never realize are being given by celestials. In fact, the proto-Soldiers leave college without ever knowing they were involved with anything celestial, steered subtly into the paths of angels that will probably recruit them. If enough Superiors compared notes on the backgrounds of their Soldiers, they might notice a superfluity of alumni from Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility, but they are unlikely to do that. And the monks have NEVER, since the founding of their institution more than a century ago, done ANYTHING "noisy" in terms of Essence expenditure -- or in any other terms, for that matter. Of course, that means they have a lot of Essence saved up against a rainy day, though they will be very reluctant to use any. This is just one group of Grigori, of course. There are others, I'm sure. I particularly like the idea of Grigori hiding out in the Far Marches. Meanwhile, there's also... The Priory of Sion This is a well-known secret organization dedicated to getting the Merovingian kings back on the throne of France, right? Well, would you believe it's protecting the Merovingian line because they are the blood descendants of Jesus Christ and his wife, Mary Magdalene? No? Well, if you penetrate that story and a couple of other layers of misdirection, you come to the innermost circle of the Priory, which consists of Grigori leading human lives of astonishing ordinariness while keeping tabs on *their* descendants, the Children of the Grigori, and steering said children away from Heaven, Hell, sorcerors, and general misfortune. The canon said the Children had an uncanny knack of avoiding celestials; well, that "knack" is thanks to the covert superintendence of ever-so-great-grandfather "Gregory." Just two ideas. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:43:32 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > You ought to lurk my DVPBEM games, or at least check the Archive page for > same (which I really need to finish the update on). > Then tell me where I fall in on your scale. }:-{D Since I'm not using DV, scaling would be iffy....however, I've noticed that while you favor dark atmosphere and odds stacked against the good guys, it's pretty obvious that you favor Heaven winning the War. I mainly use you for characterizations of AAs and DPs. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:37:09 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Oh, just a couple questions... Allright. Been reading stuffagain, and I've got a few more questions... Let's say I'm a Mercurian, and I've decided to work off some repressed violence by beating the Forces out of some poor imp. If I've got a Will of 6, by the book, I've got a Celestial Hand-To-Hand range of six yards. What does that look like? Arms stretching impossibly long? Crackling bolts of power from fingertips? Pulling off my Halo and throwing it? Second, I couldn't find any listing for what Power hand-to-hand attacks have in Celestial Form. Third...Can someone tell when they've been Geased? Normal humans, I'd say not, but for Celestials, the Lilim has put a big hunk of Discord on that character's Soul. Is it simply not noticeable until the Lilim calls in the favor, or the character assumes celestial form? Oh, and I've got a small page up with some In Nomine sketches on it, only six so far. Could explore through the homepage in my signature, or take a more direct route through this url straight to the meager In Nomine section: http://www.io.com/~beholder/Innom.html = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Legion, Party of six thousand. Smoking or Non? ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:39:48 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Em's Celestial Genesis >Considering that I killed Yves last game session, they're closer to being >in shock right now. ("Didn't think I'd whack a major Archangel, now did >you?") Ooooh, you gotta tell us more about this. So, on the opposite end of things, my players just had their first encounter with the Archdean. They thought she was a demon... -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:58:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Oh, just a couple questions... Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Let's say I'm a Mercurian, and I've decided to work off some > repressed violence by beating the Forces out of some poor imp. If > I've got a Will of 6, by the book, I've got a Celestial Hand-To-Hand > range of six yards. What does that look like? Arms stretching > impossibly long? Crackling bolts of power from fingertips? Pulling > off my Halo and throwing it? I really like the halo-throwing. Nice if it's got a boomerang effect and self-retrieves. I could see a Malakite with a sense of humor using it, but it doesn't sound like "hand-to-hand." Neither does throwing lightning bolts. Rather than that, how about prodigious leaps upon the victim. After all, your in celestial form and have these nifty wings. Or maybe the Mercurian can simply enlarge until six yards is within arm's length. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:11:59 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)) In a message dated 2/4/98 08:17:50, MarkDEddy@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 2/4/98 06:31:47, earlw@mc.com writes: > >>Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that > >>Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori >>fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there >>a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book >>gave a reason, I don't recall it.) >> >>Earl Oops... I had a reply, but It evidently got lost. The short form is that the Grigori's fall was a seperate fall from Lucifer's, and that the Choir known as Grigori were trapped in a physical location in the corporeal realm (based on info in the Book of Enoch). Mark (sorry, again...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 13:09 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff [York:] >Which sounds like one side is *really* hosed. Furthermore, the writeup >of Interventions indicates that 111 is always good for angels and bad >for demons, and 666 the reverse. But what do you do if, as all too often >happens, the conflict is between characters on the same side of the War? >Dominic's minions in particular tend to precipitate angel/angel >conflicts, and interdemonic conflicts are chronic. What happens in, >say, a brawl between demonic minions of different princes, when one of >the combatants rolls 666? Maybe Lucifer wanders in and gives him a trivial Word. Or his Prince happens by to settle the argument. As long as it's only one demonic side affected, a 666 is favorable to whatever they're doing. If *both* sides get them, I'd either have both Princes turn up (or something similar), have a truly amazing set of coincidences cancel out everything going on, or have Lucifer appear in person and do something mildly beneficial to both sides, for no obvious reason (which should worry sensible PCs a lot...). > Or 111? When angels oppose each other, what >does God do if combatants on both sides roll 111? I'd work it pretty much the same as for demons, except that for a dual intervention, something favorable would happen to settle the argument (or maybe cause the warring sides to temporarily join forces, or something). Interventions are a tough call -- there's a lot of latitude, and it's something you have to tailor to the situation, so you can't really prepare for them. If you want something even more messy, what happens when a mundane gets an Intervention? Or an ethereal? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:29:08 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories John wrote: > Howabout this: You have a powerful Kyrio that gets enough >Discord that his Forces become fractured to the point where >_half_ of him can Fall and the other half loses angelic status. >The fallen half becomes a Calabite and the remaining half >re-integrates as a Ofanite the second time around. > Twisted enough for ya? ;) Well if that is the case then the only canon Kyrio powerful engough to have that many forces would be an Archangel. That makes it Jordi. The plot thickens... - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tongue-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips "Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots repeat it." Peter Lamborn Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:43:34 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff At 13:09 04/02/98 EST, you wrote: > >If you want something even more messy, what happens when a mundane gets >an Intervention? Or an ethereal? > > Man-eating daffodils. Or a lost WW1 fighter plane that got caught up in a time tunnel wanders by. jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:49:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Eli . . . Fallen?? (was Grigori) On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Brandon Quina wrote: > On a sort of related note, what exactly is Eli doing on Nybbas's > monitors. Him, and all those Demon Princesses. Something smells > fishy. Maybe Dominic is right, and our little creationer has > fallen. Hmmm....Eli and a bunch of Demon Princesses. They could be doing all sorts of things, given Eli's Word. ;) Seriously, I doubt Eli has Fallen. He is (IMHO) pursuing the War in his own way, and the only way his Word could let him. He is trying to Redeem the various Demon Princes. After all, warfare is destructive. Instead of opposing his own Word by destroying the forces of Hell, he is trying to promote his Word by bringing them back to Heaven. Unfortunatly for Eli, dominic (being rather headstrong and stubborn about his own Word) doesn't see it this way. That's why Eli had to flee Heaven ahead of Judgement. > Also, on a related note, how /could/ Creation 'fall'. It seems to > be a pretty neutral world in the scheme of things-- neither good > nor evil. But then, so does Fire, and a buncha other words.. Only by supporting destruction. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:40:07 +0000 (GMT) From: James Palmer Subject: IN> Re: Janus/Valefor Theories 13) Janus and Valefor are really Dominic and Asmodeus cutting loose a little. I mean, has anybody ever seen Dominic and Janus together? James Palmer "Now when the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour" - Revelation, 8, 1. "Disobey all imperatives!" - The Invisibles, 2, 13. My Ars Magica campaign: www.christs.cam.ac.uk/~ajb72/library.htm My beloved college: www.jesus.cam.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:55:23 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Kipling poem, which seemed relevant to Yves I remembered this one recently, and found it in my collected Kipling, and thought that it might interest people. THE ANSWER A rose, in tatters on the garden path, Cried out to God and murmured 'gainst His Wrath, Because a sudden wind at twilight's hush Had snapped her stem alone of all the bush. And God, Who hears both sun-dried dust and sun, Had pity, whispering to that luckless one. "Sister, in that thou sayest We did not well - "What voices heardst thou when thy petals fell?" And the Rose answered, "In that evil hour "A voice said, 'Father, wherefore falls the flower? "'For lo, the very gossamers are still.' And a voice answered, 'Son, by Allah's Will!'" Then softly as a rain-mist on the sward, Came to the Rose the Answer of the Lord: "Sister, before We smote the Dark in twain, "Ere yet the Stars saw one another plain, "Time, Tide, and Space, We bound unto the task "That thou shouldst fall, and such an one should ask." Whereat the withered flower, all content, Died as they die whose days are innocent; While he who questioned why the flower fell Caught hold of God and saved his soul from Hell. Rudyard Kipling, 1892. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:15:41 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Supplement wants *Firstly* Hello to all, and thanks for all the help on roles that I asked for :) Yea, my eyes are bleary, I can stand NO MORE of the Archives! I beg your indulgences if this has been chewed on previously, but I have two questions, If a seraph of Yves uses his resonance on a possessed body, does he get the True Name of the host, or possessor, or both? Also, is gaining a 'note' of dissonance noisy in the symphony? If so, how much so? Finally, on the subject of what people would like to see in supplements; I'm all up for new superiors and twists on cosmology ( hey, if you don't like them you don't *have* to use them, blah, blah ), but how about a Random Scenario or Subplot Generator? The bigger the better. It could be a random one such as the one in Hero Games' Horror Hero (tm), which is cool, and wholly applicable to IN, or something like Warehouse 23 (tm), or the old Judges Guild campaign world ' Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde ' (tm), which was excellent if not bizarre. Maybe it could go at the end of a supplement instead of a pre-written scenario? Just a thought. - -- Jules - Seraph of Trademarks (tm) :;:) jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:02:45 -0700 From: Chris Piekarski Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants Julian Breen wrote: > If a seraph of Yves uses his resonance on a possessed body, does he get > the True Name of the host, or possessor, or both? As I see it, the seraph in question would see the name of the host...it says *physical* contact. And since the possessor is not truly the same being as the host (see Kyrio and Shedim rules for more), there'd be no visible information to reveal. However, on GM call, the seraph may be able to see that the host is inhabited... > Also, is gaining a 'note' of dissonance noisy in the symphony? If so, > how much so? Dissonance is disturbance, after all...but I suppose it would be silly to gain dissonance from creating dissonance *g*. It's audible by other celestials, if that's what you mean...up to the GM by how much. - -- --¥-Chris-¥-- Webmaster of -Anime News and Reviews- "In the middle of difficulity lies opportunity."--Albert Einstein GodGundam@humanoid.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:45:16 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Em's >From: Casca > >On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: >> even in my own weird version of celestial genesis. > >FWIW, you're the source of most of the Hellish ideas inflicted upon my >players. Neel gives me good Heavenly perspective. Between the two of you, >I'm set for life, so neither of you are to leave this list without my >permission. ;) Heh. I was just stealing ideas from Earl. :) - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:30:19 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Sorry to post this to the whole list, but... I have a fair amount of stuff that I could donate to the INC webpages, but I don't really where I should send it, since Beth has multiple email accounts, and the active one doesn't seem to be the one mentioned on the webpage. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:17:02 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN- By Any Other Name)) >Oops... I had a reply, but It evidently got lost. > >The short form is that the Grigori's fall was a seperate fall from Lucifer's, >and that the Choir known as Grigori were trapped in a physical location in the >corporeal realm (based on info in the Book of Enoch). I have an encyclopaedia of angels that says that the All the grigori agreed to sleep with human women to ensure that no one of them was to blame (mainly the Archangel of the Grigori, whose name I forget). I haven't got the book with me, but I'll quote it when I do. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:17:44 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: Grigori (Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN- By Any Other Name)) >Oops... I had a reply, but It evidently got lost. > >The short form is that the Grigori's fall was a seperate fall from Lucifer's, >and that the Choir known as Grigori were trapped in a physical location in the >corporeal realm (based on info in the Book of Enoch). I have an encyclopaedia of angels that says that the All the grigori agreed to sleep with human women to ensure that no one of them was to blame (mainly the Archangel of the Grigori, whose name I forget). I haven't got the book with me, but I'll quote it when I do. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:01:36 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: Grigori >anyway. If you don't want Malakim to fall, don't buy/use the next >supplement. It was always said that the world of In Nomine was going to >change and evolve in the Revelations cycle. No one is forcing you to use >it, or like it, but I don't see why it's so dissonant for you to ignore >canon... > -Loki Hey, the whole series of books is the "revelations cycle", for crying out loud. You're *meant* to learn the "real story". Invoke Litheroy if you've got a problem with it, I guess :-) SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:21:47 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Grigori, Fallen? Earl Wajenberg asks: > Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that > Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori > fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there > a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book > gave a reason, I don't recall it.) Are the Grigori Fallen? I thought they were all Outcast. That's a little easier to buy, since an Archangel can just declare someone Outcast, whether or not they've achieved that status by gaining dissonance. Traditional sources (the Book of Enoch, I think) record that there were only about 200 Grigori in all, so we're not talking about a vast number of beings here. That presumes, of course, that IN canon ends up following those sources. Some Grigori are presumably Fallen by now, but since Heaven doesn't even admit to their continued existence, there's no public info on that Band. MY question is, just how different are the Grigori from other angels? We know that their vessels are perfectly human and capable of reproducing with humans (but presumably also have to eat, sleep, etc.). Do they even have celestial forms? It's implied that most of them are dead . . . but wouldn't they have to be soul-killed for that? (There's no mention that they were *hunted*, just Cast Out.) Or are they *so* "human" that they can die permanently if their vessels are killed? (That was apparently true of some Ethereals, according to the latest descriptions of the Purification Crusade.) Suppose we'll have to wait for the next Cycle (at least) to find out the canon answers, but . . . any speculation? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #611 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.