From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 5 19:00:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10965 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:00:22 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA25682 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:58:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:58:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199802060058.SAA25682@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #612 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 612 In this digest: IN> Expanded writeup of Kobal Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Re: IN> Another flip for Valefor IN> Re: Grigori IN> Another flip for Valefor IN> Intervention stuff Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Re: IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) Re: IN> Oh, just a couple questions... Re: IN> Supplement wants Re: IN> Supplement wants IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Re: IN> Grigori, Fallen? Re: IN> Supplement wants Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance IN> Kyrio going Celestial Re: IN> IN Movie casting... Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? IN> The Proverbs of Hell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:49:45 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Expanded writeup of Kobal Here are some notes on how I plan on using Kobal in my game. The history is loosely borrowed from Paradise Lost, but I had to nip and tuck to fit the IN demon princes. I'd appreciate some comments, especially since I haven't completely figured out how he deals with his servitors. I have some ideas, but as you will see they are not all compatible. - ---- KOBAL, DEMON PRINCE OF DARK HUMOR "Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps." - -- William Blake, the Proverbs of Hell In my campaign, Kobal is not comic relief. He is one of the most bitter and angry of the demons, the one who convinced Lucifer to continue his war against God when the Fallen found themselves cast into Hell. His is the laughter that mocks all striving; nothing is funnier to the Demon Prince of Dark Humor than the amnesia of history. HISTORY When the Fallen first found themselves found themselves defeated and cast into Hell, Satan held a grand conference to decide what course of action they should take. Some argued that they should seek to retake Heaven by force of arms, while others counseled that they should seek to build their own kingdom in Hell. The argument progressed, and Kobal sat listening quietly, watching brilliant rhetoric and inspired argument come from every demon present. And he considered the change in his nature that had resulted from rejecting God. And he considered the fact that Michael alone possessed sufficient strength to hurl the rebel angels from Heaven. And as he watched the debate, he saw the joke. The Demon Prince of Dark Humor spoke, and counseled that the War should be continued, and that while the rebels lacked the strength to directly challenge Heaven, they could take up the tools of guile and craft that angels could not. He spoke, calmly and confidently presenting every weakness and vice as strength and ability, and he inwardly he laughed the laughter of despair as the Fallen drank in his words and Lucifer himself approved them. Things haven't changed much, since then. His jokes have become more and more obvious, until now even humans and demons not in his service can sometimes understand them. Oh, they don't laugh, not yet, but Kobal is determined that one day they will realize the punchline. PERSONALITY While Kobal's enemies are obsessed with his final joke, the Demon Prince himself rages that no one laughs at his /first/ joke. Demons usually fail to understand the futility of Hell's struggle, and while angels do often understand, as a rule they don't laugh about it. It bugs him, a lot. When summoned, before doing anything else he will often simply test that his servitor understands the joke -- no matter what else is going on. Malakim have learned to keep smiting the demons of Dark Humor, even when Kobal shows up. (They were going to lose the vessel anyway, once a Demon Prince shows up. If he's careless enough to let them waste the little demon, they should take the opportunity.) Kobal's modern jokes tend to be involved, complex, obscure, and not at all funny. At best they will seem distantly ironic, and evoke a kind of Rube Goldberg feeling. Not, of course, that Kobal will be pleased if you don't laugh. And if you laugh, he will ask you to explain the joke. And if you can't, then he will kill you. He sees laughter as a sign that the point was understood, that the barb hit home. This is why his dissonance condition binds less and less strictly as the status of his servitor rises. A powerful demon in Kobal's service is expected to make a complex point, and of course the poor deluded fools won't immediately realize what is happening. The rule is that the more powerful the demon, the longer he has before the victim realizes what has happened to him. Some of Kobal's highest-ranked servitors have seduced humans to Hell who never laughed in their lives, until they died and came to Hell, where they finally saw the joke. Kobal himself prides himself on the fact that no one yet has laughed at one of his jokes; but with a menacing smile he says that they will all laugh on the last day. RELATIONS WITH THE PRINCES Most of the Demon Princes hate and fear Kobal. He mocks them, points out the wasteful futility of their existence, and often will destroy their plans and efforts to demonstrate the point. Kobal for his part frankly despises the Princes, seeing them and their words as nothing more than buzzing, meaningless noise. But even though every one of the Princes would love to see him brought down and tortured for a few millenia, they do not move against him. He has no hooks, no weaknesses (as Hell reckons these things), since he cares for nothing -- not even himself. He does not care for his Servitors or for his power, and so he cannot be levered through them. And he is powerful enough that a Demon Prince would have to take personal action to threaten Kobal -- which they will not do, since he is stronger than they. Lilith in particular hates him with an intensity notable even in Hell. Kobal has watched her struggle for independence, and every time she has come close to her aim, he has torn apart the web of alliances, favors and secrets that are Lilith's power, for no other reason than the idle pleasure of watching her scramble. Even this she could find bearable, though, if she had not once bargained with him to stay his hand. Kobal agreed, and in a fit of manic glee even refused the Geas that would normally accompany such a favor. When she made her move, she failed. And then Kobal came to laugh. SERVITORS Every once in a while, Kobal is in as good a mood as he can ever be in, and he will tell a story. It seems that once Stalin came to a meeting of his closest advisors with a live chicken and a bag of crackers. To the shock of his councillors, Stalin brutally plucked every feather from the chicken, coldly ignoring its screams and struggles. Then he took a cracker with one hand and fed it to the chicken. The bird pecked at the crumbs and then clung to Stalin's arm, the abject terror transformed by a petty kindness into a cringing submission. "This," said Stalin, "is how we should rule the Russian people." It is also how Kobal governs his Servitors. Kobal has one of the smallest gang of Servitors of any of the lords of Hell; few demons care to be very close to the mad caprice of the Demon Prince of Dark Humor. The demons who are unlucky enough or simply too slow to avoid induction into his service are generally fairly short lived. NEW RITES - - Through laughter, convince someone to abandon a great work. (This includes Fates just as much as Destinies; this is a one of the reasons Kronos hates him.) - - Convince a human to make a bad decision on a whim, without resorting to infernal powers. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 23:12:30 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> 12 Janus/Valefor theories > > Howabout this: You have a powerful Kyrio that gets enough > >Discord that his Forces become fractured to the point where > >_half_ of him can Fall and the other half loses angelic status. > >The fallen half becomes a Calabite and the remaining half > >re-integrates as a Ofanite the second time around. > > Twisted enough for ya? ;) > > Well if that is the case then the only canon Kyrio powerful engough > to have that many forces would be an Archangel. That makes it > Jordi. The plot thickens... Well, I was going to say no, but it is a damn funny idea. Here's an even more twisted idea. Legion was so Corrupt that during his fight with Raphael he fragmented into many pieces. One of those pieces, an offshoot of his word which embodied Change, split again, and half of that split redeemed itself. Nathanael, learning that Balseraphin' is addictive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 23:12:30 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? > Sorry to post this to the whole list, but... > > I have a fair amount of stuff that I could donate to the INC > webpages, but I don't really where I should send it, since Beth has > multiple email accounts, and the active one doesn't seem to be the > one mentioned on the webpage. Send it to Casca , who is responsable for continuity tracking, and copy it to me, so I can do the HTML work on it. You can send stuff to Beth directly at , but she's less likely to get it up quickly if it isn't in HTML already... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 23:12:30 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Another flip for Valefor > So what happened? Working out that the future wasn't great when > their master got nailed, some of Theft's most powerful servitors got > together and hatched 'a plan' which involved recreating the persona > of the master thief himself. Heh - I like it. "Have you ever considered piracy?" > This is good because it explains: > Why so many demon princes hate and distrust Valefor but none of the > archangels seem to worry about Janus Why Valefor is unusual looking > for a calabite Well, both of them are funny looking, so... > Its bad because its so damn unlikely ;-) It's unlikely because most demons wouldn't trust each other. Here's a slight alternative: instead of a group of demons, it is a group of Outcast angels, sponsored by Janus. In exchange for this fun and exciting work, they have their dissonance (caused by speaking Demonic and being in Hell) removed by him and his. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:22:59 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Re: Grigori >>>I don't see the universe in In Nomine as radically changed, either. Kronos's status has few effects on the players unless you want it to, and you can just throw that bit out, since they shouldn't know it in character anyway. If you don't want Malakim to fall, don't buy/use the next supplement. It was always said that the world of In Nomine was going to change and evolve in the Revelations cycle. No one is forcing you to use it, or like it, but I don't see why it's so dissonant for you to ignore canon...<<< Very well said, Kirt. (Actually, it's been said several times already, but it's nice to see someone else contradicting the rant on its umpteenth iteration.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:23:00 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Another flip for Valefor >>>Its bad because its so damn unlikely ;-)<<< Oh, but it's a *great* idea! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:22:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Intervention stuff This would be a good place to mention that Divine Interventions (and some suggestions on GMing them) are described in the APG, and the IPG will do the same for Infernal Interventions. :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 23:21 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) [Ehrbar:] >Well, I know this might be contradicting something planned for the >IPG, It does. > but if the APG commentary on crossbreeds (ie, "The newborn is >automatically an angel because he hasn't had a chance to Fall yet.") >is also true for demon-demon children, It's not, unless something was changed at the very last minute. Celestial children formed entirely by demons have no unwarped Forces in them, so they're demons from the start. Also, anything else would suggest that Princes could create angels from scratch, which is obviously a Bad Thing. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 20:26:07 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? Stacy Stroud intoned sonorously... >they were *hunted*, just Cast Out.) Or are they *so* "human" that they can >die permanently if their vessels are killed? (That was apparently true of >some Ethereals, according to the latest descriptions of the Purification >Crusade.) Suppose we'll have to wait for the next Cycle (at least) to find >out the canon answers, but . . . any speculation? What happens to a corporeally slain angel who does not have a heart? I'd guess that is what happens to them. *I'd* like to know what their resonance might be. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:38:53 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Send it to Casca , who is responsable for > continuity tracking, My Celestial name translates to "Nagging Beth until changes are made." ;;;) > it. You can send stuff to Beth directly at , > but she's less likely to get it up quickly if it isn't in HTML > already... HTMLing isn't a guarantee of speedy up-getting. There was a huge batch of stuff I sent to her, via you, at Christmas that she has yet to up-get. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives and Angel of Continuity Tracking (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 00:47 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? >What happens to a corporeally slain angel who does not have a heart? I'd >guess that is what happens to them. Limbo. (The whole issue is discussed in moderate detail in Heaven & Hell, though not for Ethereals.) >*I'd* like to know what their resonance might be. All in good time.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:39:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) At 6:01 PM -0800 2/3/98, Querent wrote: >---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> "Bought off" may be a mildly poor word-choice -- using point-based >> mechanics language instead of in-world language -- but it's hardly >> *errata*. > >Just trying to promote my Demon Princess's word, your highness. Oh, you're one of mine? Oh, well, then, that's okay. So, why have you conspired to lose your Band (or Choir, for Habbalah) designation? - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:47:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 12:03 AM -0500 2/4/98, Ehrbar wrote: >>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:41:43 -0500 >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >>At 5:20 PM -0500 2/3/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>>But how does he create new servitors of the Wind? >> >> >> >>Why, it's *obvious* -- he doesn't! He merely gets some of his >>Servitors together to create angel-babies -- he still has the >>ability to stick them together, and if he uses pure angel-Forces, >>then he gets an angel! (This is evil and wicked. I like it.) > >Well, I know this might be contradicting something planned for the >IPG, but if the APG commentary on crossbreeds (ie, "The newborn is >automatically an angel because he hasn't had a chance to Fall yet.") Little ethereal gods, is *that* still there? Oh, crossbreeds. Hm. I forget exactly what was decided on, but I *think* the newborn's nature depended on who did the sticky-Forces stuff. Either that, or it's the "pure Forces" that determine? Whatever. I can live with that one. >is also true for demon-demon children, IT IS NOT! () (Someone proposed that it be, and SJ and I said *NOT*! Demon Princes cannot create angels, no, no, no, not, it doesn't happen, they can't, that's too funky, no.) - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:51:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Buying off Discord? (errata?) At 1:21 AM -0500 2/4/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> If PCs get enough points, it's generally rationalized that they've >> accumulated enough brownie points with their boss to get the Discord >> removed -- it's the same with learning Songs. The PC spends the points, >> representing catching the boss in a good mood and asking for a favor in >> the right way, and getting the Song imprinted into hir little >> celestial head. > >Well, hell, that just makes Discord a lot less unpleasant... Oh, go look at page 61. It's as easy or as hard as the GM wants it to be. But the PC still pays out the points (since technically IN is point-based in funky ways). If the PC is doing pretty well with the boss, then the GM says, "Sure, I don't want to deal with this -- you just reported in a successful mission, so you can spend the points now." If the PC is *not* doing well with the boss, then the GM says, "No." If the PC is Renegade/Outcast, then the GM laughs evilly and asks if they're calling Lilith. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:04:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Oh, just a couple questions... At 12:37 PM -0400 2/4/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Allright. Been reading stuffagain, and I've got a few more questions... > > Let's say I'm a Mercurian, and I've decided to work off some >repressed violence by beating the Forces out of some poor imp. If I've got >a Will of 6, by the book, I've got a Celestial Hand-To-Hand range of six >yards. What does that look like? Arms stretching impossibly long? Crackling >bolts of power from fingertips? Pulling off my Halo and throwing it? Screwing up your face and sending heat-waves in that direction? Doing the "in again, out again" dives? Your celestial form expanding to something appropriate in proportion? Whatever you want it to look like. > Second, I couldn't find any listing for what Power hand-to-hand >attacks have in Celestial Form. Probably 0, then... > Third...Can someone tell when they've been Geased? Normal humans, >I'd say not, but for Celestials, the Lilim has put a big hunk of Discord on >that character's Soul. Is it simply not noticeable until the Lilim calls in >the favor, or the character assumes celestial form? Ah, stuff for FotM... A "hook" (that stage between when the Lilim does you the favor and when you make your Will roll to resist) is invisible to just about everyone but Superiors. A Geas (invoked, or simply promised a-la the favors owed to Lilith) manifests celestially. (There's some more stuff about Geases and whatnot in FotM, far as I know.) I've been assuming that hooks aren't noticable to the hooked entity, even by celestials ("If I'd known she was a Lilim, I wouldn't have slept with her!"), while actual Geases can be felt locking into place. > > Oh, and I've got a small page up with some In Nomine sketches on >it, only six so far. Could explore through the homepage in my signature, or >take a more direct route through this url straight to the meager In Nomine >section: > http://www.io.com/~beholder/Innom.html > Oooo! Something to add to the Art page! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:09:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants At 10:15 PM +0000 2/4/98, Julian Breen wrote: >If a seraph of Yves uses his resonance on a possessed body, does he get >the True Name of the host, or possessor, or both? Oh, make them make a Perception roll and give them information based on the CD... (IOW, as far as I know, there's no current canon on that.) >Also, is gaining a 'note' of dissonance noisy in the symphony? If so, >how much so? I think the answer to that is "no," though gaining *Discord* might be (based on something in a future book; believe it when you see it in print). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 01:53:33 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants >Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:15:41 +0000 >From: Julian Breen >Subject: IN> Supplement wants > >Also, is gaining a 'note' of dissonance noisy in the symphony? If so, >how much so? Symphonically noisy? No. Virtually nobody can tell that you've just gained a spot of Dissonance, by the Symphonic ripples alone. On the other hand, It's a horrid, wrenching, nasty feeling, and excruciatingly painful. Kind of like if one of your kidneys decided it would be better off in Key West, and teleported there. Won't be Noisy in the Symphony, but it might le noisy if the Celestial starts shrieking suddenly, a typical reaction for the first note a Celestial ever recieves. Further notes beyond tghis are easier to take, and I'll probably require an Emote roll to not reveal any outward signs at all. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Senaieas, Shedite Baron of Lust, the Demon of Voyeurism ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:58:56 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance Here's my interpretation on "hearing" an angel or demon gaining dissonance or discord, based on the musical paradigm of the celestials: Disturbance, dissonance and discord are all the same sort of thing, but to varying degrees. Disturbance is fairly minor - it is happens whenever you play in the symphony. If you perform a song, people around you are going to hear it - - obvious. Once the echoes have died down, it's gone. Dissonance is more serious - it means that you're out of tune - you can't play a particular note correctly (e.g. your "G" constantly plays flat). This is why songs are harder to perform - your dissonant notes might screw up the tune (this assumes that dissonance makes it harder to perform songs - I know they make it harder to invoke your resonance - I can't remember about songs). Discord is very serious - it means you're out of key. You can't play certain chords, and play others that you shouldn't. Since you're playing in a different key, it doesn't affect your ability to play songs so much, but when others hear you, they may spot that you're out of key. From this, it makes sense that in and of themselves, dissonance and discord don't create disturbance - since they describe the *type* of disturbance. Whether you play a tune in key or out of key, it will have the same chance of being heard, if it is the same volume. But as an extension to canon (hey, I've picked up the habit of using that word already! Who is the Demon of Canon, anyway? They'd have to be a servitor of Asmodeus!), I would say a cool new rule is that if you hear a celestial's disturbance, you can make a perception roll to detect dissonance or discord, with +1 per note of dissonance to detect dissonance, +1 per level of discord to detect discord. Demons being listened to get to subtract their will from the roll, since it is harder to tell if they are out of tune since each one has his own personal symphony - dissonance & discord mean they are actually *in tune* with the real symphony to some extent ("I don't know... he *sounds* a bit angelic, but it's hard to tell since he's the demon of hardcore doof..."). SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone - I bet you heard me coming! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 06:02:11 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance > Disturbance, dissonance and discord are all the same sort of thing, > but to varying degrees. Eeeeh...no. Not in canon, anyway. Disturbance is the only "audible" one there. Dissonance and discord are problems with the Celestials personal symphony, and don't extend beyond it. > But as an extension to canon (hey, I've picked up the habit of using > that word already! Who is the Demon of Canon, anyway? They'd have to > be a servitor of Asmodeus!) Actually, no, but she used to be. Demon Princess Beth, Djinn of Nitpicking is the best one for that role. Unless one of her servators got the Word, or Evil Stevie has claimed it for his own... > I would say a cool new rule is that if you hear a celestial's > disturbance, you can make a perception roll to detect dissonance or > discord, with +1 per note of dissonance to detect dissonance, +1 > per level of discord to detect discord. Demons being listened to > get to subtract their will from the roll, since it is harder to > tell if they are out of tune since each one has his own personal > symphony - dissonance & discord mean they are actually *in tune* > with the real symphony to some extent ("I don't know... he *sounds* > a bit angelic, but it's hard to tell since he's the demon of > hardcore doof..."). Well, it's an interesting idea, at least. How about this: To detect the Dissonance or Discord of a Celestial, wait until they make a Disturbance that you hear. Then roll Perception minus the Disturbance range modifier, plus one for every point of dissonance, plus four for every point of discord (because discord is more obvious), plus the check digit of the Disturbance roll minus 6. The CD determines how much you know about the Dissonance or Discord: 1 - You can tell if they have Discord 2 - You can tell if they have Dissonance/Discord (but not which) 3 - You can tell which they have (either or both). 4 - You can tell generally how much they have (every point of discord counts as three dissonance for this). 5 - You can tell exactly how much they have, and what types of discord they have. 6 - You can tell the reason why they got the most recent third of their dissonance and discord (minimum of 1). If this seems to much for some people, make it a roll that can be made only in the Marches, to see if you penetrate the Celestial's seeming... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 06:02:11 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? > > Send it to Casca , who is responsable for > > continuity tracking, > > My Celestial name translates to "Nagging Beth until changes are > made." ;;;) ...or maybe "soon to be cripsy seraph-kabob"... > > it. You can send stuff to Beth directly at , > > but she's less likely to get it up quickly if it isn't in HTML > > already... > > HTMLing isn't a guarantee of speedy up-getting. There was a huge > batch of stuff I sent to her, via you, at Christmas that she has yet > to up-get. It's up. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:46:18 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Grigori, Fallen? In a message dated 2/4/98 18:47:22, sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net writes: >MY question is, just how different are the Grigori from other angels? We >know that their vessels are perfectly human and capable of reproducing with >humans (but presumably also have to eat, sleep, etc.). Do they even have >celestial forms? It's implied that most of them are dead . . . but >wouldn't they have to be soul-killed for that? (There's no mention that >they were *hunted*, just Cast Out.) Or are they *so* "human" that they >can >die permanently if their vessels are killed? (That was apparently true >of >some Ethereals, according to the latest descriptions of the Purification >Crusade.) Suppose we'll have to wait for the next Cycle (at least) to find >out the canon answers, but . . . any speculation? A continuing speculation on a Choir which has gone to the dogs... 1) Grigori (in both In Nomine and the Book of Enoch) are not much different from other choirs of angels, except that their vessels are described as "giant," and they are cross-fertile with humans (in my campaign, without the Song of Fruition). 2) It's not mentioned in In Nomine, but the implication in the Book of Enoch is that they *had* celestial forms which looked like gigantic, unwinged humanoids, but now have the equivalent of the Bound Discord/10(!). 3) Again, this is not In Nomine canonical, but in Enoch, the Grigori are chained in the corporeal realm, somewhere underground, where they are guarded by other angels awaiting final Judgement. 4) In general, I would guess that the Grigori are all trapped, waiting for the final battle, where their efforts and children will determine whether what they did was right or wrong. Mark (not-so-closet Enochian) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 11:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants [Elizabeth:] >At 10:15 PM +0000 2/4/98, Julian Breen wrote: >>If a seraph of Yves uses his resonance on a possessed body, does he get >>the True Name of the host, or possessor, or both? > >Oh, make them make a Perception roll and give them information based >on the CD... (IOW, as far as I know, there's no current canon on that.) The FAQ does say that Seraphim of Yves need a roll for any information beyond name. My own personal take as a GM would be to give the Seraph both names for a Shedite, since both entities are "resident". With a Kyrio, or someone using the Song of Possession, I'd give only the possessor's name (since the host entity is "out of town"...). In the latter case, a roll with a decent CD would get both possessor and host names. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:16:34 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > My Celestial name translates to "Nagging Beth until changes are > > made." ;;;) > > ...or maybe "soon to be cripsy seraph-kabob"... That too. Angelic is a remarkably versatile language. > > HTMLing isn't a guarantee of speedy up-getting. There was a huge > > batch of stuff I sent to her, via you, at Christmas that she has yet > > to up-get. > > It's up. It is? I can't find it. I know I sent you a batch that included such things as Lilith's Distinctions, the First Family, Haagenti's Politics, etc etc, and I don't see it on the INC. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives and Angel of Continuity Tracking (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 12:08 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance, Discord and Disturbance [David Streeter:] >But as an extension to canon (hey, I've picked up the habit of using >that word already! Who is the Demon of Canon, anyway? They'd have to be >a servitor of Asmodeus!), I would say a cool new rule is that if you >hear a celestial's disturbance, you can make a perception roll to detect >dissonance or discord, with +1 per note of dissonance to detect >dissonance, +1 per level of discord to detect discord. I don't think you want to do this, since this sort of ability is a special feature of certain celestials. Presumably, each celestial has their own theme (Choir/Band, plus stuff for the Word they serve, plus stuff for their own individuality). Hearing the specific theme-threads of dissonance or discord takes special abilities to "tune in" on these parts in any individuals. Maybe someone with a heightened ability to detect Symphonic disturbances would be able to sort out the dissonance- and discord-based twists in a disturbance, but I don't think the current rules support anything like this. Even with a high CD on a disturbance Perception roll, you can barely tell what's going on, and even the *major* difference between a demonic and an angelic disturbance is inaudible to anyone except Malakim of Destiny. I can't see just anyone being able to pick out someone else's minor personal problems from their disturbances if they can't tell if he's a demon of an angel.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:23:40 -0600 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Kyrio going Celestial Just a quick questions that a friend of mine and I had difficulty finding the answer to. If a Kyrio goes Celestial without giving up all his hosts, does it cost Essence? We were thinking it cost 2 Essence to do so, but then couldnt' find the answer in the books. Thanks for your help, Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 Look for me in #innomine on Efnet rbeall@fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html <---Follow the link to the "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. #innomine web page. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> IN Movie casting... Actually, I'd prefer if you didn't. I originally put my cast list out to get feedback while constructing a web site. The site's still under construction, but it should be up by next week. Anyway, if I submit my cast list ideas on a different website, I would get traffic on mine for what reason? So, while I may have sparked an interest in casting In Nomine, I would appreciate it if the interests were not ripping off my ideas to make other sites better. Thanks. - ---Bruce Dykes wrote: > > I've sent Beth a prototype casting page for the INC...would those of you > who've come up with casting ideas for Superiors in the IN movie, please be > so kind as to send them to me personally for inclusion on the page prior to > posting??? == --Querent USELESS FACT: In Fantasia's "Sorcerer's Apprentice" story, the wizard's name is Yensid. (Disney backwards.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:24:20 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? > > > HTMLing isn't a guarantee of speedy up-getting. There was a huge > > > batch of stuff I sent to her, via you, at Christmas that she has yet > > > to up-get. > > > > It's up. > > It is? I can't find it. I know I sent you a batch that included such > things as Lilith's Distinctions, the First Family, Haagenti's > Politics, etc etc, and I don't see it on the INC. That's my fault - I'd been waiting until she got the last batch up to do the present batch. I'll get it now... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:49:09 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> The Proverbs of Hell Here are the proverbs of Hell from William Blake's _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_. I also have an HTMLized version, which I could contribute to the INC webpages if I knew where to send it... - ---- As I was walking among the fires of hell, delighted with the enjoyments of Genius, which to Angels look like torment and insanity, I collected some of their proverbs, thinking as the sayings used in a nation mark its character, so the Proverbs of Hell show the nature of Infernal wisdom better than any description of buildings or garments.... - -- Wiliam Blake, _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_ - - In seed time learn, in harvest teach, in winter enjoy. - - Drive your cart and your plow over the bones of the dead. - - The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. - - Prudence is a rich, ugly maid courted by Incapacity. - - He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence. - - The cut worm forgives the plow. - - Dip him in the river who loves water. - - A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees. - - He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. - - Eternity is in love with the productions of time. - - The busy bee has no time for sorrow. - - The hours of folly are measur'd by the clock, but of wisdom, no clock can measure. - - All wholesome food is caught without a net or a trap. - - Bring out number, weight & measure in year of dearth. - - No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. - - A dead body revenges not injuries. - - The most sublime act is to set another before you. - - If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise. - - Folly is the cloke of knavery. - - Shame is Pride's cloke. - - Prisons are built with stones of Law, Brothels with bricks of Religion. - - The pride of the peacock is the glory of God. - - The lust of the goat is the bounty of God. - - The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God. - - The nakedness of woman is the work of God. - - Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps. - - The roaring of lions, the howling of wolves, the raging of the stormy sea, and the destructive sword, are portions of eternity too great for the eye of man. - - The fax condemns the trap, not himself. - - Joys impregnate. Sorrows bring forth. - - Let man wear the fell of the lion, woman the fleece of the sheep. - - The bird a nest, the spider a web, man friendship. - - The selfish, smiling fool, & the sullen frowning fool shall be both thought wise, that they may be a rod. - - What is now proved was once only imagin'd. - - The rat, the mouse, the fox, the rabbet watch the roots; the lion, the tyger, the horse the elephant watch the fruits. - - The cistern contains: the fountain overflows. - - One thought fills immensity. - - Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you. - - Every thing possible to be believ'd is an image of the truth. - - The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to the learn of the crow. - - The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion. - - Think in the morning. Act in the noon. Eat in the evening. Sleep at night. - - He who has suffer'd you to impose on him, knows you. - - As the plow follows words, so God rewards prayers. - - The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction. - - Expect poison from standing water. - - You never know what is enough until you know what is more than enough. - - Listen to the fool's reproach! It is a kingly title! - - The eyes of fire, the nostrils of air, the mouth of water, the beard of earth. - - The weak in courage is strong in cunning. - - The apple tree never asks the beech how he shall grow; nor the lion, the horse, how he shall take his prey. - - The thankful receiver bears a plentiful harvest. - - If others had not been foolish, we should be so. - - The soul of sweet delight can never be defil'd. - - When thou seest an Eagle, thou seest a portion of Genius; lift up they head! - - As the catterpillar chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys. - - To create a little flower is the labour of ages. - - Damn braces; Bless relaxes. - - The best wine is the oldest, the best water the newest. - - Prayers plow not! Praises reap not! - - Joys laugh not! Sorrows weep not! - - The head Sublime, the heart Pathos, the genitals Beauty, the hands & feet Proportion. - - As the air to a bird or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible. - - The crow wish'd that every thing was black, the owl that every thing was white. - - Exuberance is Beauty. - - If the lion was advised by the fox, he would be cunning. - - Improvement makes strait roads: but the crooked roads without Improvement are the roads of Genius. - - Sooner murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires. - - Where man is not, nature is barren. - - Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #612 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.