From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 11 21:11:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11046 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:11:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA00430 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:49 -0600 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:49 -0600 Message-Id: <199802120257.UAA00430@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #622 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 622 In this digest: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off IN> Changing Vessels (Re: Remnants) Re: IN> Lilim and Limbo IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns IN> Lilim & Limbo IN> Angelic Offspring IN> In Nomine flavor concerns - Some Malakim stuff IN> Baal and Michael's "retirement" Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) Re: IN> Angelic Offspring Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations IN> Testing - Don't Bother Reading IN> Re: Lilim and Limbo Re: IN> Baal and Michael's "retirement" Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns IN> WW2 Re: IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> WW2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:42:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off At 11:36 AM -0500 2/11/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Emily Dresner wrote: > >> Without those grey areas, the game starts to really lose some of its >> flavor, and as I've found through GMing it, that is where all the >> interesting action happens. Besides, the gray area is where you can prism >> out the colors and get interesting rainbows and tie-die. > >No one has accused me of anything, yet, but to head off any potential >misunderstanding, I like grey too. I guess I just want to see some >really solids whites, too, in certain areas. Hm.... When I want solid whites, I start thinking about *characters*. Judgment, the Sword, Malakim... Maybe even Flowers and Creation. The universe is still the universe, with as much Light and Dark as the GM chooses, but the *characters* see it differently. Judgment sees it in black and white, stark and simple and pure in its own way. If you are not for the Light in all its painful brilliance, then you are sliding into Darkness, and it is their holy duty to keep you from that fate. They rejoice when they can save someone from Hell. The Sword is similiar -- there are good guys and bad guys. They're the good guys. They fight the bad guys. They help the humans they're sworn to protect, kill Hellsworn, and generally have that upright innocence that comes from *knowing* Right from Wrong. ("And he never wondered if it was right or wrong; he just knew." To paraquote a song.) Malakim are often like Swordies with a different slant on what they consider honorable, depending on their Archangels. (My Fire-Malakite in Redneck's PBEM is flexible for her Choir, but she used to be a reliever and was planning on fledging Mercurian before everything went to Hell in a handbasket. And she *still* thinks the "friendly" demons are wrong-headed creatures who need to be drawn to the true, pure Light instead of their selfish grayness. Tolerantly intolerant. It's an interesting thing to roleplay. I digress...) Flowers and Creation see the shining Light of peace and love. They see a mother cuddling her child, and they see *glory* there. They see two people coming together in friendship and trust, and it's like the Symphony opens for them for a moment, because that's *LIGHT*, that's what the Word they serve values. Hm. Fire can do it as well... They punish the darkness of cruelty, for the glory of Heaven. ("Habbalite of Fire? Which Fire?" "Um.") So the whites are there, but only when filtered through a character. Maybe that's why my IN universe seems to have grayer Light, but is overall brighter than the nominal "middle" between my dark Darkness and gray Light. The individual angels see *their* Lightness as *the* Light, see the glory of the Word they serve... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:14:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Changing Vessels (Re: Remnants) At 11:14 AM +0000 2/11/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: [changing vessels] >If it does cause so much disturbance, spare vessels are going to go with >the Songs of Entropy, Possession and Projection into my "those >superficially cool things which are completely and utterly useless" >collection. It was errata'ed long and long ago (before I gained my crown) to be the same cost as going celestial -- i.e., Forces + Essence spent. I sniveled, too. It's primarly useful when the GM *isn't* using the "track disturbance to the creator" option, and/or you have a half-way friendly Tether to change in. (My "stealth-Renegade" character does most of her form-changes near Tethers -- she turns from recognizable human to a superficially mundane-looking plain tabby cat. "Yeah, there was this tabby cat demon working with angels! I saw it! Uh, distinguishing characteristics? It had stripes...") Or when you're about to lose one vessel and need more hit points *fast* and there have already been enough Songs of Thunder around that what's one *more*, eh? Spare vessels are also *vital* to anyone without a Heart, 'cause the Heartless go to Limbo, and Limbo ain't nice. The trick to surviving Limbo is to have a spare vessel that you don't mind making your *main* vessel. Then, when you're dropped to Limbo, you make the cheapest, quickest vessel you can and pop out as a mouse or canary or something, and then swap to your "spare" vessel. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:23:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Limbo At 10:34 AM -0400 2/11/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > I'd been thinking of putting something like the above in a >character story. Namely, I'm wondering...Is this possible? Can a Lilim toss >Essence to a Celestial in Limbo and hook a Geas along with it? No. Not unless she has some way to read the Need to get *out* of Limbo (or the GM finds some way for her to have read that Need *before* dropping the unlucky sap into Limbo). Since Lilim require eye-contact or touch, and since *even Geases vanish* while the victim is in Limbo... It don' work. Thank the ethereal gods. Now, disclaimer -- you can do whatever you want in your own game, own campaign, etc. And it is a truly *evil*, tricky thing to do and you have a twisted mind and I admire you. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:10:51 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns >>Stacy Stroud wrote: >>> ...isn't there anyone else here who was just a little sickened by >>> the APG's bizarre canon explanation of "why the Malakim didn't just >>> whack Hitler"? I guess I'll answer directly. Mortals need to be allowed to decide their own fate/destiny. If you don't allow it, they don't really have free will. As nasty as it sounds, from an angelic perspective, Hitler accomplished alot by becoming the foil to all that could be considered good. He taught the mortals a lesson that they needed to learn, thus he gets to live out his fate and is doomed to be harvested for essence in the pits of hell. Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:21:23 -0600 (CST) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, at 23:26:13 EST, Frank Lazar replied to me: >>On lFri, 6 Hippocrates 29 AT (Sat, 7 Feb 1998), at 03:48:52 EST, Stacy >>Stroud wrote: [...] >>>David fits fairly well as the Vorlon Superior, with the dual emphasis on >>>hard testing and communitarian values. >> >>Makes sense, based on what I've heard about the Vorlons. >> > >When you see what the Vorlon's put Dalenn and Sheridan, through, I'd say >that the Superior for most Vorlons (not Kosh) is Dominic. I stand warned. >As to the >Shadows, I'll go farther out on a limb and name their Superior as a Fallen >David. There hard-sell take on Evoltion is like a twisted version of >David's methods of toughening humanity. > David *combined* with Malphas, perhaps? (How's that for some good old- fashioned nightmare fuel?) I suspect that Stella Inquisitoris (the "INS 7000 AD" supplement someone mentioned here a while back) could be useful. Then, at 23:22:00 EST, Frank wrote: [...] >>So are Encounter Suits vessels or relics? >> > >Relics --Walking Body Bags of course. :) > Should have guessed. (And BTW, I don't remember whether it was you or somebody else who explained why Kosh seems Cherubic, but I take their point, whoever it was.) >>>Kosh 2 Habbalite in service to Belial. >>> >>Or (to merge in Stacy's theories) just an overenthusiastic Mal, or a >>highly dissonant Elo. >> > > Having watched In Beginning, I'd say that Dark Kosh Fell in between that >time and the time that Sheridan met him. > We've got ItB on tape, and I suspect I'm going to *have* to watch it now, to get that glimpse of Ulkesh. >>>Elric and the TechnoMages Mercurian and Soldiers in service to Jean. >>> >>Having seen "Geometry of Shadows" last Friday, I can't argue with your >>choice of Superior, though I'm not really sure how you conclude that >>Elric is a Merky. If I had to pick a Choir for him, off the top of my >>head, I'd say he's an Elo. > > Because of the supreme grasp he had of both Lando and the circumstances >that surround him, plus the argument could be made for a prohibition of >violence. Point taken. >I could see your point, but he's both not objective and any Elo >that displayed that much passion would be knocking on Vapula's door rather >soon, to do God's work of course. :) > Of course. Must *test* them, yes. >Think of the conversation he had and this quote from it. > >"I could warn you, but you will not listen. I could kill you, but another >would take your place. So I do the only thing I can, I go away." > Jeez, good point. >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>| _ | >>>| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | >> >>Did I mention that I've preserved this .sig in my collection? > >In case you wondering, the glyph is a combinaton of Amiga logos, THE >computer for the aspiring Techno-Mage. > Intriguing. And at 23:39:44 EST, Frank suggested: [...] >Perhaps the War will only end when Yvves or Lorien (an even higher >manifesation of God) calls both angels and demon to "come home" and >promises not to abandon either one. :) Screwtape writes: "Members of [the Enemy's] faction have frequently admit- ted that if ever we came to understand what He means by Love, the war would be over and we should reenter Heaven." Either I'm high, or there's a strong parallel here. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:22:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns At 12:46 PM -0400 2/11/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Stacy Stroud wrote: [...] >I had always assumed that the Malakim resonance measured honor against an >objective standard. No, it doesn't. It doesn't even measure it against the Malakite's standard. It measures it against the *subject's* standards. (Note the exact phrasing in the Malakim Resonance Box...) Of course, if someone's most honorable deed was blowing up the school bus, the Malakite may well want to have a ... chat ... with the person. >Basically, the Malakim didn't wack Hitler because they were ordered not >to. That's my take on it, aye... (And they may not have *noticed* him till things got big because he wasn't wallowing in dishonor...?) (Little ethereal gods. A thread with Hitler that's on topic...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:50:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim & Limbo >>>I'd been thinking of putting something like the above in a character story. Namely, I'm wondering...Is this possible? Can a Lilim toss Essence to a Celestial in Limbo and hook a Geas along with it? By the core rules guidelines, a single point of Essence to a Celetial in limbo should be worth at least a Geas/3, as J. Random Renegade needs a week to get another one. And so long as the Celestial accepts the Essence, and doesn't manage to lose it, when he finally emerges, not only do you have a decent way of tracking him down, he owes you.<<< (1) A Lilim doesn't automatically get a Geas-hook by doing someone a favor. She has to apply her resonance first -- and you can't do that to someone in Limbo. (2) You can't automatically track someone with a Geas-hook. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:56:39 -0500 From: "Marco, Stephen" Subject: IN> Angelic Offspring Dear Sirs, In the Angelic Players Guide it says that the Half-Breed Children of Angels and humans can "Manipulate Essence with the same control as a Celestial" Does that mean that a Half-Breed may sing songs of Ethereal and Celestial nature? Or are they confined the same way as normal humans? Thank You for taking the time to answer my question. Steve Marco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:57:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns - Some Malakim stuff >>>Can I claim some of this? Please? Pretty please? I'm fairly sure that some of it is my fault.<<< I think it was Lintking's idea, IIRC. It was a nifty idea, though. >>>1. The expect honor in others, but not in themselves. Ie, they can lie, cheat and maim demons and Bad Humans in the names of their oaths.<<< That's not correct. Malakim absolutely expect honor in themselves. If a Malakite's code of honor allows him to lie, cheat, and maim demons and Bad Humans, it will allow others (in his view) to do the same thing, with the same justification. What you're trying to say here is that honor among Malakim is relative -- they don't all have the *same* code of honor (except for the "not letting evil live" thing). But every Malakite does apply the same code of honor to himself as he applies to others. >>>2. They embody vengance, which isn't a particularly selfless concept, even in the name of Heaven. Revenge for 'bad things done' is not an exceptionally 'good' thing to be running around doing, even if there is plenty of support in the Bible for the action.<<< Ah, it's never been claimed that "good" and "honorable" are necessarily the same thing.... But, Malakim don't (or aren't supposed to) inflict vengeance just for the sake of vengeance. That would be petty and selfish. They can inflict vengeance in the name of justice, or preventing the offendor from sinning again, or making an example to other sinners, etc. (All your other stuff I agree with. :)) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:05:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Baal and Michael's "retirement" >>>Um. No. Maybe more casualties for American soldiers than WW1, but fewer people died during the Civil War than in WW1. <<< Fewer *total* casualties, perhaps. I think she was referring to American casualties. The American Civil War did inflict more *American* casualties than any other war in which the U.S. has been involved. (Of course, the Spanish Flu that followed WWI killed even more people than the war did....) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:18:25 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) >Was someone suggesting that unaided celestials breed?> > >Earl It started with the Lillim and the possibilities of someone breeding them. Then it dwindled down to what I can only see as celestial breeding programs. Example: Bobiel and Juliel decide that they want another angel to love the world, they start breeding. Do they ask a superior for help, or do they get messy all by themselves? That sort of thing. Then it moved on to the Infernals breeding, oh Malakim or something. Forced breeding pits or some such. Even the Angelic side getting stuff together to form squads. However, the more I think on it, the less I like it. The APG took the angels farther away from being humans. The idea of breeding doesn't seem to mesh. It makes the angels more "human". I like all my celestials three steps away from anything earthly. Another thing that I don't like about it, is that it does set a situation for power gamers, which I unfortunately have a few of in my group. They would see this as a chance to start making their very own celestial armies, becoming equivalent to their superiors in a short span of time. By taking away the breeding option, that focus for power gamers in my group is gone. Now, they have to find newer and more creative ways to power game. Sorry, got on a rant again, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:31:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Offspring At 3:56 PM -0500 2/11/98, Marco, Stephen wrote: >Dear Sirs, >In the Angelic Players Guide it says that the Half-Breed Children of >Angels and humans can "Manipulate Essence with the same control as a >Celestial" >Does that mean that a Half-Breed may sing songs of Ethereal and >Celestial nature? Or are they confined the same way as normal humans? Actually, it says, "With a little training they can expend Essence with the same control as a celestial." Important, to get the words right... This means that they have Soldier potential almost automatically, but require training. They are still mortal, and therefore are as constrained as any other Soldier in regards to which Songs they may learn. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:35:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) At 1:18 PM -0800 2/11/98, Armand wrote: >Another thing that I don't like about it, is that it does set a situation >for power gamers, which I unfortunately have a few of in my group. They >would see this as a chance to start making their very own celestial armies, >becoming equivalent to their superiors in a short span of time. By taking >away the breeding option, that focus for power gamers in my group is gone. >Now, they have to find newer and more creative ways to power game. If they *want* to spend 10 points per Force (with a minimum of 3, for a reliever (assuming they're angels)) to get a buncha not-necessarily- loyal NPCs... Even moreso with demons. You work and you slave and you donate Forces (at 10 character points each), and what do you get? You get a selfish little demonling who'll betray you without a second thought if someone offers it a better deal, that's what you get... But current canon says that Superiors are the only ones with the Force Super-glue, so you're okay there. (*And* they still have to give up some of those Forces.) emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:29:47 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations >>>>Elric and the TechnoMages Mercurian and Soldiers in service to Jean. >>>> >>>Having seen "Geometry of Shadows" last Friday, I can't argue with your >>>choice of Superior, though I'm not really sure how you conclude that >>>Elric is a Merky. If I had to pick a Choir for him, off the top of my >>>head, I'd say he's an Elo. I'm sorry, I haven't been listening to this line of conversation becasuse I haven't seen the new B5 stuff yet. Could I get a description of the afforementioned Elric? Keep it mostly visual. I have a friend who is curious. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:38:12 -0500 From: John J Maurer Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations At 02:21 PM 2/11/98 -0600, Austin George Loomis wrote: > >>>>Kosh 2 Habbalite in service to Belial. >me and the time that Sheridan met him. >> >We've got ItB on tape, and I suspect I'm going to *have* to watch it >now, to get that glimpse of Ulkesh. All right, I'll bite. I tried to ignore it because it wasn't on topic. Where the heck did the name "Ulkesh" come from? Last time I heard: "We are all Kosh." I do know that in the pilot Kosh I was refered to as "Kosh Naranek" but that went away. Is Kosh II "Kosh Ulkesh" and if so where is that revealed? Speaks "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." - -G.K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:20:21 GMT+10 From: "Leath." <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Testing - Don't Bother Reading Just as it says ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:42:02 GMT+10 From: "Leath." <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Re: Lilim and Limbo Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: "I'd been thinking of putting something like the above in a character story. Namely, I'm wondering...Is this possible? Can a Lilim toss Essence to a Celestial in Limbo and hook a Geas along with it? By the core rules guidelines, a single point of Essence to a Celetial in limbo should be worth at least a Geas/3, as J. Random Renegade needs a week to get another one. And so long as the Celestial accepts the Essence, and doesn't manage to lose it, when he finally emerges, not only do you have a decent way of tracking him down, he owes you." IMO, I'd say no, the Lilim can't do this. The main reason for this is that although the celestial trapped in Limbo DOES have a big Need for Essence, there is no way for the Lilim to read the Need in their eyes and fulfill it. Just like a Lilim can't walk up to a random stranger in the street and give them $100, then expect to call in a Geas when they haven't actually read a Need in that person for money. The Lilim resonance works by Reading a Need, then Fulfilling it. Both parts are required. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:53:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Baal and Michael's "retirement" On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Stacy Stroud wrote: > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Being a consumate planner, no doubt Baal has a "retirement plan" > Does *Michael* have a retirement plan, in the event that Heaven wins the War? My answers are very much IMC, and by all means YMMV, but... Baal is DP of 'the War'. If and when he wins it, he can change his word (or rather, Lucifer can). He will either have 'War', or, if the win is so outright that it seems like fun, he could go for 'Victory', and claim 'War' as _part_ of his word, since it is _one_ of the methods used to acheive victory. Such a rock-hard word, would, of course, be a damn fine victory in itself, and acheived by the method of... The War. It fits too well to not be true. Michael, IMC, is not so much the Archangel of War as, well, the Archangel of Michael. Before the Fall, War was not a very important word, so it seems strange that the First Created would be given the job, even if Him Upstairs did know what was coming. So Michael is, essentially, the Angel of Being an Absolute Top Bloke, and Still Being Good, and True, and Loyal. He is currently doing War, because he is the best person for the job, and because it is the best job for him. That will change when he wins, and he has no doubt at all that he will. You may notice that I like him. David may be Stone, but Michael is Nails. He is suspicious of Yves, btw, because he would, on the whole, rather haul Lucifer's scaly ass out of Hell and finish it RIGHT NOW, but has been told that humanity has to be given the choice to take a side. He sees humans taking the wrong side, and desperately wants to stop them from falling, but no... 'Be patient, Michael. The time is not yet right.' So he has to deal with the machinations of Baal, who he considers an upstart puppy with a bit of tactical savvy, but without the grit to back it up, while the real enemy could be up to almost anything in the background... At this point in his train of thought, he tends to head for earth, and reduce a couple of the usual demonic suspects to bloody pulps. Michael and Eli, back to back on a blasted wasteland. Michael carries his axe, Eli a sword. They are both stripped to the waist, and covered in blood and gore. At their feet lies a heap of dismembered demonic bodies: we can make out Baal's horns, and what might be a flamethrower jammed down the neck of a torso with its head severed. The two look around, warily, then realise that nothing else is coming. Eli waves a hand, and plants begin to sprout around them. "I guess we won. What next, Mike? Watchya gonna do with your time?" "I fancy a beer." "Cool." Eli holds up a hand. Mike high-fives him. Laurence and Yves approach: Yves is smiling enigmatically. "And so, my children, we learn that..." Yves frowns as Michael interrupts: "Hi Laurence. We're off for a coupla brews. With us?" "Yep. Thanks Yves, it was fun, but we have to say:" Laurence, Michael and Eli together: "Get a life!" Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:07:02 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Stacy Stroud wrote >As for the "Dominic/Malakim as near-evil" bit, I just adopt the most >sympathetic interpretations of them. Only last night, reading the new >USAGI YOJIMBO RPG, did I receive the blinding revelation that Malakim are >essentially samurai. Yes, I've just read the APG and I got the same revelation. > In the Usagi comic (and, one presumes, in actual >historical Japan, as well), samurai are always being forced by their oaths >of loyalty and honor to fight against those who might have been friends, >except that their lords or mentors or families were enemies. Indeed. This explains the whole Malakim perspective toward the other side. They have made the choice to defend heaven at all costs, and they will not allow personal relationships of any kind to interfere with this commitment. The initial shock/outrage felt that some of their brethren might even consider renouncing God was enough to form an entirely new choir ( Though such fervour may now be be dwindling somewhat, which could be the angle used on their Fall.) >Back to the Malakim for a moment, and touching on the "absolute good and >evil" question as well -- isn't there anyone else here who was just a >little sickened by the APG's bizarre canon explanation of "why the Malakim >didn't just whack Hitler"? First of all, it's not even correct >mechanically: Malakim do *not* earn dissonance for killing "honorable" >humans, even if one considers Hitler "honorable." Second, even though the >Malakim resonance is for honor and integrity rather than goodness per se, >saying that the Malakim will leave someone alone just because that person >lives up to *his own* morality, even if that morality is thoroughly >twisted, stands in utter contradiction to every other statement and >implication in the IN books about the nature of Malakim. O.K. I agree with you on the mechanics bit (unless of course, an oath had been violated), and I don't think that the reason the malakim didn't snuff Adolf was because they had to grudgingly admit 'Aw shucks, I guess he's honourable in his own sort of way'. Instead - lets get back to the real reason that malakim exist. To defeat opposition to Heaven. Hitler was not _directly_ an opponent of Heaven. He was manipulated by infernal parties into great evil, yes, so where does the task lie in dealing with this? *Destroy those parties responsible*. Hitler was a rude peasant upstart who was nothing without his diabloical masters. The answer is to remove *them*. Whereas some malakim may seek to kill such unpleasant specimens of humanity (in feudal Japan this was called 'Kirisutegomen' or 'Killing and going away', and referred to the right of titled folk to cut down any member of the lower classes that had offended them), an equal number may consider such humans to be beneath their scrutiny. Others may be remembering God's command of "Thou shalt not damage humanity". And honouring it. > Given that the >Nazis are usually such a hot-button topic, I'm surprised there hasn't been >a massive outcry against this explanation of "why the angels didn't think >Hitler was really evil. The angels no doubt did see Hitler as being evil, but as I've said, its a matter of priorities. As I see it, the malakim were working to 'cut out the cancer at its cause'. I also personally think that the malakim as a whole were not _ordered_ to despatch Hitler, and therefore didn't. The malakim will not suffer an evil to live 'by choice'; maybe they had no real choice; could they have been under specific instructions *not* to interfere? (Yves' influence here - Free Will debate). To reiterate; Humans must live by their own rules with minimal interference from celestials. It is the Will of God. Malakim came about at the Fall, and were effectively created to combat demons, NOT destroy humans, despite how evil they are/were. (My thanks go to Mr Edelstein for finally allowing me a handle on this choir. Bravo.) - -- Jules - Serving Peril Nicely Thank you Very Much. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 19:56:25 PST From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> WW2 - ------------------ quoted ------------------------------ >> ...isn't there anyone else here who was just a little sickened by >> the APG's bizarre canon explanation of "why the Malakim didn't just >> whack Hitler"? > >I didn't know about it; I haven't bought the APG yet, just window- >shopped over it while waiting for a favorable monetary fluctuation. >Gee, I would have explained it more simply -- the inner Nazi circle >had heavy demonic protection. > So what happened to him afterwards? Well, he topped himself, but instead of going to hell it turned out that a lot of people were still quietly worshipping his memory so he became a minor ethereal deity (hey, canon says mortals can't become celestials -- not a word about becomeing ethereals :) ) but one bright day he strayed just a bit too far into the Far marches and Em's Cult of Uriel sacrificed him to their whacked out concept of purity. - ----------- end quoted -------------------------- This thread and and the one on the angel of World War 2 begs the question... How intense was celestial involvement? Just consider these points: In an IN history,we can certainly assume all the freakiest rumours and stories of occultism in the nazi party to be true. Goebbells is most certainly a Bal of Nybbas, and certainly a duke by now... Since Hitler's management of Germany's war effort was crucial to the allies' victory, was the plot to assassinate him instigated by Baal or Michael? You can create your own stories about Jean's and Vapula's involvement... It seems WW2 would make a very prolific setting for an IN campaign... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:19:33 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > Without those grey areas, the game starts to really lose some of its > flavor, and as I've found through GMing it, that is where all the > interesting action happens. Besides, the gray area is where you can prism > out the colors and get interesting rainbows and tie-die. Nope. Don't agree. You don't *need* the grey areas. The decisions are simple, really. The fun comes in when you make the decision *seem* like it has a lot of grey areas in it. That's when you get to watch your players sweat a lot. And all over nothing. :::} Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:22:06 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:40 PM -0600 2/10/98, MadLocks wrote: > >In addition I would like to add another question. Since the remnant is on > >earth, I can assume that it was a favored servitor. > >If a superior can create new angels and give forces as reward to his > >servitors, can he also give a remnant new celestial forces. > > I could have *sworn* I'd gotten all the reasons why it wasn't generally > done on the INC... Casca! My Seraph! Help! Do I not have those? From the FAQ (sorry about the tags...)

Why doesn't someone fix all those Remnant s?

This is a very complex question with a variety of reasons. Depending on who you ask in Heaven or Hell, you will get a different answer.

  • Not worth the time and effort (this one is popular with demons). It takes an enormous amount of Essence and time to restore such a creature since the most elevated part of the Remnant, the Celestial, has been destroyed. Most of the time the such a creature might be looked upon as a failure, making the expenditure even less likely.
  • That angel/demon no longer exists. The being that used to exist has been destroyed. If you managed to give a Celestial Force to a Remnant, what you would have is a new creature that might have some twisted and fragmentary memories of a previous existance. It would not be the same Celestial, however.
  • They are 'lost'. With no heart and no Celestial Forces, it's very easy for a Remnant to just wander off with no way of finding them. As far as anyone knows, they are just dead.
  • The attempt simply fails. It happens. They are just broken beyond all repair.
- -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, GR Cogman wrote: > >How about: "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall." That's my > >favorite. > > Oh, do you by any chance mean "FIAT JUSTITIA, RUIT CAELUM"? Beats me. I don't know any Latin. I just saw the quote once, and liked it a lot. I may eventually use it as the title of a campaign revolving around Dominic. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:26:01 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > At 16:09 10/02/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>>>(I know I may be in a minority of 1 but I think Dominic is utterly > >cool)<<< > > > >Minority of 2 at least. > > > >-David (I knew there's a reason I like you ;)) > > So all we need to do is find one more person and we can form a > threeso^D^D^D^D^ triad! I'm in. I like Dominic. So, now that we have a triad, who do we check out first? [Glares menacingly at the list.] Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:36:04 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 12:46 PM -0400 2/11/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >I had always assumed that the Malakim resonance measured honor against an > >objective standard. > > No, it doesn't. It doesn't even measure it against > the Malakite's standard. It measures it against the *subject's* > standards. (Note the exact phrasing in the Malakim Resonance Box...) Okay, I'm wrong. It still doesn't explain the official position on why the Malakim didn't whack Hitler. > >Basically, the Malakim didn't wack Hitler because they were ordered not > >to. > > That's my take on it, aye... (And they may not have *noticed* > him till things got big because he wasn't wallowing in dishonor...?) I'm sure the Malakim assigned to Germany noticed him pretty quickly. Still, orders are orders (whether you like them or not...). > (Little ethereal gods. A thread with Hitler that's on topic...) Scary, isn't it? Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:42:20 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns >> >How about: "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall." That's my >> >favorite. >> >> Oh, do you by any chance mean "FIAT JUSTITIA, RUIT CAELUM"? > >Beats me. I don't know any Latin. I just saw the quote once, and liked >it a lot. I may eventually use it as the title of a campaign revolving >around Dominic. That is precisely what the Latin means, and where the quote comes from. I can't pretend that my campaign revolves round Dominic that much, but you never know which way things will go. Ah hah hah hah. Ahem. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:49:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> WW2 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, bruce dykes wrote: > This thread and and the one on the angel of World War 2 begs the question... > > How intense was celestial involvement? Just consider these points: > ... > Goebbells is most certainly a Bal of Nybbas, and certainly a duke by now... You've just hit a topic which offends me, even if I am not personally affected. I expect it offends many others, too. WW2 was given a pretty wide berth by White Wolf, for some very good reasons, about which I shall now rant. The Nazis committed the worst human atrocities in living memory, probably in history. Many of the guilty parties have been convicted, and rightly reviled, for their actions. If we start pretending that the humans involved are not wholly responsible, that there was some supernatural agencies behind it all, then we are obscuring, in a tiny way, that which should be plain and open for everyone to see, and detest. If even one person reads about some Nazi crime in a SJGames supplement before they read about it from a source that claims historical accuracy, then straight away they have a false view. SJGames are good, but they do not have the authority to deliver the Holocaust to the general public. The comment about Goebbels is a case in point: if you say he was a Bal, he becomes a fictional character. An evil one, true, but Goebbels should stand as something far worse than fictional evil (especially tacky, tongue-in-cheek fictional evil like Nybbas). He was real, he was human, and he was involved in the most morally repugnant organisation in recent history. Period. By all means do it IYC, at a level appropriate to your historical knowledge. But I personally would hate to see it in the shops, even with a big disclaimer: "This product contains views of religion and recent history which may offend some readers, especially those who were involved in the events portrayed. We apologise for any distress caused to Holocaust victims and their families." That is just not on, in my opinion. Steve. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #622 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.