From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 12 05:18:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13159 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:18:48 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA07361 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:06:13 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:06:13 -0600 Message-Id: <199802121106.FAA07361@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #623 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 623 In this digest: IN> Infernal Cult IN> WW2 Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> WW2 IN> Fiat Justitia IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> Innocence Attunements Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> WW2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:32:59 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Infernal Cult "Every man is evil, yes, every man's a liar and unashamed with wicked tongue sings in the black soul choir!" - -- 16 Horsepower, "Black Soul Choir" I was trying to come up with an organization of out and out demon worshippers for my campaign, and was having trouble trying to figure out why a person would willingly serve the powers of Hell. The answer came as I was flipping through my copy of _The Whispering Vault_ and musing about the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity. The story begins in a small church in the Appalachian mountains, in the 1930s. Rev. Jake Tolliver preached a harsh, unforgiving, fire and brimstone flavor of Calvinism, but despite the bleak fanaticism and obsession that girded his belief, he and his church provided a focus for the faith of the surrounding community. At least, until the angel showed up. Jehoash, a badly discordant Seraph of Fire came to the town to punish several prominent citizens (think _Yojimbo_), and unfortunately for the poor preacher, it stayed long enough to explain that it was an angel, but not long enough to let him know why it had come. Tolliver believed Jehoash when it said it was an angel, but did not know the secret crimes it had come to punish -- as far as he knew, the angel had murdered several prominent and respectable citizens who were no more sinful than anyone else. He wrestled with his doubts, and in a blinding flash of insight succumbed to his Fate. It was so obvious he wondered why he had not seen it earlier. Man, fallen through the disobedience of Eve, was no longer supported by divine grace and therefore born damned. This much he had known, but he realized the idea's implications. If man was utterly depraved, it meant that there was no way that a human moral impulse could be in accord with God's will, and that what seemed sinful to man was actually blessed and holy. Clearly, this was why the angel had murdered and exulted in its murder; it killed because suffering and death were holy and loved by God, and that meant that the Bible was wrong and that Jesus was the Devil, that Satan was God, and Heaven Hell and Hell Heaven! Tolliver's acceptance of his Fate was so sudden and dramatic that even the lords of the Hell noticed. Malphas, in a spirit of irony, sent Achaia, one of his Habbalah, to guide the preacher; it seemed fitting to send an insane "angel" to guide a mad preacher. Achaia appeared to Tolliver and tutored him, until he took an axe and chopped two 9 nine-year old children to death, and with the help of the demon evaded a three-state manhunt. Now utterly homeless, Tolliver began a new church, which he called the Black Way Church, composed of rapists and murderers and any and every person he could find who had transgressed against the standards of human decency. The Black Way by necessity met in secret, but Tolliver was a magnetic speaker and whoever he couldn't sway Achaia could break; and so the Black Way grew. It has been 6 decades, and the Black Way still exists, still led by Tolliver, who has been kept young through Achaia's infernal powers. Eventually, though, their madness will be met with justice. Won't it? NPCs: Rev. Jacob Tolliver Soldier of Hell Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 4 Agility 4 Ethereal Forces 2 -- Intelligence 2 Precision 6 Celestial Forces 3 -- Will 6 Perception 6 Body: Status/2 (Itinerant Preacher), Toughness/1 Charisma +2 (magnetic presence) Skills: Fast-talk/6, Emote/6, Lying/4 Knowledge(Theology)/1 Songs: Corporeal Healing/5 Appearance: Jacob Tolliver is around 6 feet tall. Though once he wa broad and muscular, he is now lean and stringy, the result of spending decades ignoring the demands of his body. His hair is a stringy, matted mass of black gone to grey, and his beard is only slightly less tangled. He continues to wear the vestments of his office, and in contrast to his body they are neat and well-maintained despite showing obvious signs of heavy use. Personality: Tolliver is able to put on a show of being gentle and considerate, though that fades as soon as he is seriously contradicted or questioned (especially in front of others). He believes that he is very close to being pure enough for God to accept, since there are very few depravities that he has not yet grown accustomed to. Achaia Habbalah of Factions Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 3 Agility 5 Ethereal Forces 3 -- Intelligence 6 Precision 6 Celestial Forces 4 -- Will 10 Perception 6 Vessel: Vessel/3 (Human female) Skills: Fighting/4, Dodge/6, Lying/6, Detect Lies/6, Seduction/3 Songs: Ethereal Light/3, Celestial Light/6, Corporeal Entropy/3, Celestial Tongues/1 Discord: Obsessed/4 (Jacob Tolliver) Appearance: Achaia wears the vessel of a young woman with black hair and green eyes. She is usually barefoot, dirty, and acts dazed, at least until she decides on a course of action. She goes by the name of Rebecca. Tolliver is sleeping with the Habbalite Achaia, who was sent to use him. This has done nothing for his mental sanity, but it seems that Achaia and Tolliver have somehow come to share the same insanity and thus reinforce each other. Malphas is not yet aware that Achaia has come to regard her protege as the Messiah, but he would undoubtedley become worried if he did. (He does not want anyone dependent on anything but himself.) The Worshippers of the Black Way Generic Thugs Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 5 Agility 3 Ethereal Forces 1 -- Intelligence 2 Precision 2 Celestial Forces 1 -- Will 2 Perception 2 Body: Toughness/1, Status/1 (Wanted criminal, usually) Skills: Fighting/2, Ranged Weapon/2, Dodge/3 Description: Serial killers, child molesters, and assorted really bad people. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:49:40 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> WW2 >>>You've just hit a topic which offends me, even if I am not personally affected. I expect it offends many others, too.<<< Not really. World War II was a huge, bloody, awful event in history. But it's history. I'm not offended by seeing it replayed in fiction. I might be offended if a game company designed a WWII storyline around the notion that the Holocaust never happened, but I don't think that's likely. >>>WW2 was given a pretty wide berth by White Wolf, for some very good reasons, about which I shall now rant.<<< You must not have read "Sheol: Charnel Houses of Europe", their supplement for Wraith about the Holocaust. (Which I am told was actually fairly well done -- I haven't done more than browse through it myself.) >>>The Nazis committed the worst human atrocities in living memory, probably in history.<<< Well, not really, actually. They committed the *largest scale* atrocities in history, but plenty of other people before and since have done things equally horrendous, they just had a bodycount that was measured in the thousands or tens of thousands, as opposed to millions. The Nazis stand out for the scale of their atrocities, not for having reached a new level of evil. (Read up on the Khmer Rouge sometime, or Rwanda, or the Mongol style of reducing cities that resisted them.) >>>If we start pretending that the humans involved are not wholly responsible, that there was some supernatural agencies behind it all, then we are obscuring, in a tiny way, that which should be plain and open for everyone to see, and detest.<<< Well, there is a problem here, in that In Nomine, and games of its ilk, will inevitably pretend there were supernatural agencies influencing (if not controlling) many historical events, including World War II. That is the whole *premise* of the game. Now, I would disagree with the depiction of Goebbels as a demon simply because I don't like making every important historical figure a celestial because it makes humans irrelevant. IOW, *yes*, the Holocaust was very much a *human* evil. But I think it would be unrealistic to say that something that huge didn't have demons behind it on many levels, in an In Nomine universe. And I think it would be immature to tiptoe around it if In Nomine ever gets around to covering World War II. >>>If even one person reads about some Nazi crime in a SJGames supplement before they read about it from a source that claims historical accuracy, then straight away they have a false view.<<< Anyone that reads a game supplement for historical accuracy deserves what they get. (SJG *does* generally do a very good job with research, but come on!) >>>SJGames are good, but they do not have the authority to deliver the Holocaust to the general public.<<< I don't think describing the diabolical role in the Holocaust (*if* such a storyline is ever published) would be attempting to do that. Even if a game company did a *bad* treatment of the Holocaust, I'd blow it off as shoddy writing and poor research, and probably not buy anything more from that company. But anyone who rants that their particular hotbutton had better never be touched by a game causes me to instantly suspect their motives and their objectivity. I tend to think that most such people are reacting in a kneejerk fashion so everyone can see how moral and good and noble they are: "Look at me! I hate Nazis! I'm appalled by the Holocaust! I am worthy of admiration for my moral stance!" Feh. Would you rant similarly if someone proposed, say, that Oliver Cromwell was actually a demon? Or Pol Pot? Or that demons encouraged the European slave industry (an equally horrible crime against humanity that just didn't happen to leave a few million bodies lying around all at once in the aftermath), or the persecution and destruction of Native Americans? Frankly, I find the way some people jump up and scream and rant at mere mention of the word "Nazi" or "Holocaust" exceedingly tiresome. Yes, it was a terrible thing. Yes, it should be remembered. Yes, "Never again", etc. etc. But it's a part of our history, one of the uglier parts, but I don't think it should be accorded some sacred status making it more untouchable than any other nasty episode in history in a roleplaying game. The only thing I would concede is that it requires a bit more sensitivity in its treatment, given that there are still living victims. And even if the Holocaust itself was to be avoided, World War II was a *huge* event, of which the Holocaust was only a part -- so it would be utterly unrealistic to say "Don't even touch World War II, because the Holocaust was part of it!" - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:06:21 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, GR Cogman wrote: > > >> >How about: "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall." That's my > >> >favorite. > >> > >> Oh, do you by any chance mean "FIAT JUSTITIA, RUIT CAELUM"? > > > >Beats me. I don't know any Latin. I just saw the quote once, and liked > >it a lot. I may eventually use it as the title of a campaign revolving > >around Dominic. > > That is precisely what the Latin means, and where the quote comes from. I > can't pretend that my campaign revolves round Dominic that much, but you > never know which way things will go. Ah hah hah hah. Ahem. It was one of the medieval popes who said it. I don't remember which one. If that's the title of your campaign, and it doesn't revolve around Dominic, what is it about? If you don't mind me asking. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:36:30 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> WW2 This is rather off-topic, so anyone who wants to reply to me should send me email. Thanks. - ---- >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:49:12 +0000 (GMT) >From: Steve Jessop >Subject: Re: IN> WW2 [angels and demons in WW2] >You've just hit a topic which offends me, even if I am not personally >affected. I expect it offends many others, too. > >The Nazis committed the worst human atrocities in living memory, probably >in history. Many of the guilty parties have been convicted, and rightly >reviled, for their actions. If we start pretending that the humans >involved are not wholly responsible, that there was some supernatural >agencies behind it all, then we are obscuring, in a tiny way, that which >should be plain and open for everyone to see, and detest. Worst in history? Off the top of my head, the Ottoman massacre of the Armenians, Stalin's mass starvation of the Ukranians, Mao's Great Leap Forward, and the Cambodian killing fields all leap to mind as events comparable in barbarity and savagery to the Holocaust -- and that's just in this century. The Holocaust is unique for just one reason: we have good photographs of what happened. >The comment about Goebbels is a case in point: if you say he was a Bal, he >becomes a fictional character. An evil one, true, but Goebbels should >stand as something far worse than fictional evil (especially tacky, >tongue-in-cheek fictional evil like Nybbas). He was real, he was human, >and he was involved in the most morally repugnant organisation in recent >history. Period. By this logic, Cold War spy thrillers should not be published because they trivialize and distort the suffering of the people in the Soviet Bloc -- after all, the Communists murdered more people than the Nazis, and they were quite a bit more systematic in their torture and oppression. As a larger issue, I really mislike any effort to segregate the Holocaust from the rest of history. It was a terrible, awful crime, but it was by no means unique, and trying to cast it as such obscures one of the most important facts about it: namely, that it was perpetrated by ordinary people living ordinary lives. I want to see the Holocaust understood in regular historical context, and if that means a few tacky gaming supplements are published, so be it. >But I personally would hate to see it in the shops, even with a >big disclaimer: > >"This product contains views of religion and recent history which may >offend some readers, especially those who were involved in the events >portrayed. We apologise for any distress caused to Holocaust victims and >their families." This seems to suggest that part of your problem stems from the fact that WW2 is still in living memory. Would you have the same objection if this were 2020 and there were no more survivors living? Or alternately, would you object to a game that suggested that US involvement in the Vietnam war was the result of an alien-dominated conspiracy? - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:00:12 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> WW2 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > > I don't think describing the diabolical role in the Holocaust (*if* such a > storyline is ever published) would be attempting to do that. I think it really depends on the -sort- of In Nomine game you're running. If it's just one of moderate "darkness", it might be revealed that Hell had a guiding hand in the Holocaust, through whatever guile, force or whatnot they managed to do it. If it's a -really- bleak In Nomine game, you might say that it was all human. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:03:25 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: IN> Fiat Justitia > On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, GR Cogman wrote: > > That is precisely what the Latin means, and where the quote comes from. I > > can't pretend that my campaign revolves round Dominic that much, but you > > never know which way things will go. Ah hah hah hah. Ahem. *cringe* Oh, and some of us pray it won't revolve around Dominic that much. Especially those of us whose little mistakes the local Servitor doesn't know about yet. (Attacking the Kyrio instead of the Shedite never does good things for your standing with Judgment, no matter who was controlling your mind at the moment. :) ) On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > It was one of the medieval popes who said it. I don't remember which one. > If that's the title of your campaign, and it doesn't revolve around > Dominic, what is it about? If you don't mind me asking. Maya's game, Rich, is about faceless, nameless, drooling evil. Trust us. :) Currently, though, it seems to be about an opera; about violins; about Judgment and the Game and the blurring boundaries between; about cooperation, love, justice, second chances, and a really really nice bar. Of course, I'm only one of the poor saps playing in it. Sooner or later we'll find up what *Maya's* up to as opposed to what the PCs are doing to, with, and about each other. Trust me, you'll be able to hear the howls of pain even without checking the mailing list. :) - eslin@buffnet.net - Chephirah, Cherub Servitor of Destiny (Fiat Justitia) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:25:46 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Hmmm. From the responses to my question about the Malakim and Hitler, it seems that many people agree with me that the APG's answer is screwy. However, I seem to have given many others the wrong impression about what I was saying. Let me try to state my position, and my complaints, in summary form: 1) I know that, in IN history, Hitler did all that he did in real history, and was not whacked by Malakim. I am not saying that the fictional history should be rewritten. 2) I agree that, given the nature of Hitler and the nature of the Malakim, there needs to be a good in-game reason why Hitler was never whacked by Malakim. 3) I agree that there are, in fact, any number of good and valid reasons why, many of which have been posted in response to my question. Infernal protection around Hitler; orders not to interfere with Free Will; and the "use" of Hitler by Heaven as a true evil, in fighting against which many would fulfill their Destinies -- all these are good reasons. The only thing I was complaining about was the main reason given in the APG (and not even written by Mr. Edelstein, it turns out). The book mentions the demonic protection factor, but spends most of its time explaining that the Malakim could not whack Hitler as long as he was being true to his own morality. There is even an offhand mention that they would've suffered dissonance for doing so. Neither of those things is true. Yes, a Malakite resonating Hitler would sense what *Hitler's* standards held to be his most noble and ignoble acts -- but if the "most noble act" turned out to be something like "ordering the Final Solution" then there's nothing *intrinsically* preventing the Malakite from acting on that information and whacking the bastard. He will not gain dissonance; nor, based on my reading of the Malakim information, will he feel that Hitler is not evil just because Hitler has perverted standards of morality. In fact, if *he* feels that Hitler is evil, the Malakite *has* to try to neutralize him, because of Shared Oath #1. That's where orders, Free Will, Heavenly counter-examples, and demonic protection come in. But nowhere does Hitler's own morality have *anything* to do with any Malakite's inability to go after him with lethal intent. (Well, unless a particular Malakite has sworn not to kill anyone who lives up to his/her own standards -- but that seems an odd Oath for a Malakite.) Have I made my concerns clearer, now? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:52:38 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations > Last time I heard: "We are all Kosh." I do know that in the pilot Kosh I > was refered to as "Kosh Naranek" but that went away. Is Kosh II "Kosh > Ulkesh" and if so where is that revealed? Back when I was on the Demo Team for the Babylon Project RPG,we had a similar thread. The concensus of the list members was that Kosh was actually a title. We guessed something like a mentor or teacher. Thus the first Vorlons name Kosh Naranek, would have meant Mentor Naranek. The second Vorlon, who was a bit more hard-core, would have let his definition of the title be something like Master ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:44:22 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations > >>>>Elric and the TechnoMages Mercurian and Soldiers in service to Jean. > >>>> > >>>Having seen "Geometry of Shadows" last Friday, I can't argue with your > >>>choice of Superior, though I'm not really sure how you conclude that > >>>Elric is a Merky. If I had to pick a Choir for him, off the top of my > >>>head, I'd say he's an Elo. They're humans. They use Technology to cast "spells." Remember that they were fleeing this sector so that they couldn't be used in the shadow war. Besides with some of the spells they were throwing, I'm sure Kosh would have been on them in a Nano, same with Morden and his "assosiates." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:30 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> WW2 > Worst in history? Off the top of my head, the Ottoman massacre of the > Armenians, Stalin's mass starvation of the Ukranians, Mao's Great > Leap Forward, and the Cambodian killing fields all leap to mind as > events comparable in barbarity and savagery to the Holocaust -- and > that's just in this century. The Holocaust is unique for just one > reason: we have good photographs of what happened. Heck even Charlemange slaughtered 2,000 Saxons, as retribution for a battle in which a church was destroyed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:53 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... > Make more definite statements about God the Creator, and it seems > almost inevitable you'll start tripping over people's toes on > issues like: One or Three? Or ten? Anybody up for my quick and dirty interpretation of the Kabbalic sephirot for In Nomine? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:53 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns > We've already seen a couple of efforts at adapting IN to specific > religions' worldviews. Perhaps you and Mr. Dobyns and I (and anyone > else with thoughts in this direction) could work on a general > "back-to-the-sources" IN variant? I'm going way back, deep roto-rooting stuff; back when Yahweh was a nasty, xenophobic god of a certain people in a land that sprouted with gods, and the Devil was Moloch, a nastier god of another people. It's a "God as Ethereal" thing, although it's a lot lighter than I thought it would be at first... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:54 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) > He'd managed to gain a point or two of Will or Perception in the > mean time, because in my campaign Celestials tend to accrete power > just by being on the Corporeal Realm. He didn't go as far as gaining > a new Celestial Force that way, but I don't see why that couldn't > happen. In which case, what would you have - a Remnant who was still > a mundane, and his Celestial Force was a mundane Force? the same > angel as before he was Force-stripped, who could be tracked as if > he'd never gone? a subtly different angel? something else? I'd say a new celestial, with a new personality, but the old celestial's memories and learning. In my mind, Celestial forces can only come into being in two ways: 1) Something triggers the creation of a new soul. It may be a baby gestating in the womb, it may be an Archangel singing it out of the Symphony, it may be be a remnant trying to gain what they had before (if that works). But it's always a new soul, and what the soul will be like cannot be predicted with much accuracy. 2) An existing soul matures. So if the created a soul for itself, it would find itself with a large number of memories that feel detached and off from how it would act. If it's Superior created a new soul, it would be much the same, although the transition might be made a little easier. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:54 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine flavor concerns > That would be my own approach. And let me say again that the canon > doesn't portray Malakim as negatively as they portray Dominic. I > almost retract the remark. I was mostly thinking of the idea, > kicked around on the list a few months ago, that Malakim can't Fall > because they are already demons, with much accompanying fun, > burrowing for clues in the canon and arguing from the narrow, severe > description of Malakim. The interesting thing is, the more I think about it, the less I see Malakim as bad under this theory. You see, falling (for me) has less to do with being evil and more to do with violating the boundaries of a delicate resonance. The resonance (like the edge of a blade) breaks, leaving a blunter, less precise, but more durable resonance. The malakim have already Fallen, and yet stayed with Heaven. They broken their delicate resonances for harder, stronger resonances, in the name of Heaven. It makes them hard, yes. But sometimes Heaven needs hard. (Of course, the Malakim resonance, and indeed most everything in my IN interpretations, is very different, so...) > I didn't know about it; I haven't bought the APG yet, just window- > shopped over it while waiting for a favorable monetary fluctuation. > Gee, I would have explained it more simply -- the inner Nazi circle > had heavy demonic protection. And the Malakim had Elohic orders that they should pick their battles; even if Malakim had broken through that protection, all they would have done is martyred Hitler for the cause. There were plenty of leaders available who would have taken up Hitler's flag anyday. The loss of valuable angels in a pointless battle doesn't serve Heaven well. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:54 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Innocence Attunements > Sam Chupp's. James Cambias has written many things for IN, but he's > not in _The Marches_ at all. (OTOH, Cambias wrote the Dominic > writeup that actually got me seeing Judgment in a sympathetic light, > from which arose some fictional characters, including the Elohite in > Maya's latest Caliah story ("Facade", IIRC). (Yes, we borrow each > other's characters from time to time...)) That reminds me, folks - in case you haven't been paying attention, Maya has been putting out more Caliah stuff lately. I only noticed because I hit her site while cleaning up my favorites folders. Plenty of kudos are in order, yet again - lots of good, tight writing, and good looks into the mind of an Elohim and Habbalah of War. Plus good imagery for the Marches, the Far Marches, and much of Hell... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:53 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction > AUGH! *eyeballs explode* That brings to mind a random image that popped into my head, on contemplating cheesy horror films. It was late, we were tired, and the image of somebody's eyeballs popping while they were wearing glasses was just too grotesquely funny... > Yikes. There are some people Lilith just should not... now I love > Laurence. That's why I beat him up and put him through angst hell. > But he just should never have any Lilim who call him 'Dad'. Although K.K. might dream about it from time to time... > > Exactly. The streets of Shal-Mari may be crawling with demonlings, but > > that's only obvious in Shal-Mari. ("Why don't we invade Hell, Daddy?" > > "Do you know how many demons there are down there?" "Uh, no." "Think > > about it...") > > And Lust without contraceptives in an infinite space. Yikes. :) Well, I have been pondering this, and something had to give. In the end, it was the concept of infinite Heaven and infinite Hell. If Heaven and Hell are finite, then you will have finite populations. If they are infinite, then (in my mind, at least) the populations will tend toward the infinite, and the power needed to rule the populations will do the same. And I don't like infinite power in my games... So for me, Heaven and Hell have specific boundaries, which means limited population. In Heaven, the population is limited by Archangel fiat and Celestial choice. In Hell, population is balance; there is an average amount of demons who have children each year (determining factors would be personal choice and the time and energy required), and there are a given number of demons who bite the big one each year (through combat with each other and with Heaven). > - Em, who read a Lust story elsewhere, and got grossed out totally. > Lust + Death = Nastiness. Nathaniel, who just read Maya's stories. Lust + Nastiness = Shedim Pit...*shudder*. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:42:30 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> WW2 > >> Worst in history? Off the top of my head, the Ottoman massacre of the >> Armenians, Stalin's mass starvation of the Ukranians, Mao's Great >> Leap Forward, and the Cambodian killing fields all leap to mind as >> events comparable in barbarity and savagery to the Holocaust -- and >> that's just in this century. The Holocaust is unique for just one >> reason: we have good photographs of what happened. > >Heck even Charlemange slaughtered 2,000 Saxons, as retribution for a battle >in which a church was destroyed. The Thirty Years War? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:47:29 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> WW2 At 19:56 11/02/98 PST, you wrote: > >This thread and and the one on the angel of World War 2 begs the question... > >How intense was celestial involvement? OK, I shoudln't have written that ;-) IMO, my basic premise of the war is that the angels don't want to interfere in human destiny if they can avoid it but demons don't have that kind of restraint so any celestial conflict around history will be largely angels trying to stop demons from faffing around with humanity. If the angels 'won' any particular scuffle then the history will have been almost totally determined by human choices (with a bit of subtle celestial support in key positions, maybe), if the demons won then they will probably have steered things a bit more openly -- although they can be subtle too. So how much direct involvement there was becomes more a matter of GM choice - -- if you want to run a story set in WW2 in which Goebbels was a Balseraph than its cool (not ALL of the people involved were demons or hellsworn, after all), but if you prefer to run one where the significant figures were all mortals and the balseraph was some kind of advisor then thats cool also. A general thing I find with any historical game is its a good idea to do some research on what actually happened before making the in-game reasoning up. I actually have an idea for a story set in London during the Blitz, to do with a scuffle between Jean and Vapula which has an effect on the machine which cracked the Enigma code -- although I'm sure the actual computer was invented by humans at the end of the day ;) I'm going to leave this subject now, except to say that one of the reasons the Holocaust horrifies our society so much more than many other massacres is that it happened in a 'civilised', 'western' society, in the 20th century. Its almost impossible to look at it, see the films, read the books, see the death camps (I've been to Auschwitz) and not think 'Could it happen here?' jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:51:24 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Anybody up for my quick and dirty interpretation of the > Kabbalic sephirot for In Nomine? Yeah, do it. Joe, will post on Zen eventually - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:47:14 -0500 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> WW2 Unfortunately, your argument is not a good example. White Wolf makes many references to WW2, such as in Berlin by Night, and in their supplement for Wraith Shoal, Charnel Houses of Europe. Both were handled in a mature matter. If we are to assume that people cannot make the distinctions between a roleplaying game and reality, we really do not worry about their perception of a horrible war. (BTW, check out my Anti-Nazi page on my website www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/3841/theatre.html We need to worry about this person getting on a subway car with a gun and killing people. We have to remember that not everyone is going to want to deal with these topics in their role-playing. If you do not want to, that is fine. But part of the roleplaying is to deal with situations such as this. By examining the monsters that are our fellow man, we can hope to rise above them. To not do so is to deny these things have ever happened. It is your choice whether to use something in a chronicle. But there is no need to flame someone, especially over the list, about something that could easily be addressed to them privately. If the topic offends you, I'm sorry you feel that way, but some of us feel that we are mature enough to explore these topics, if only to gain a better understanding of them. We might as well stop playing the game, as celestials in In Nomine influence humans a great deal, at least in the scope of the game. This game implies that humans alone are not responsible for all their actions, that they are influenced by celestials. What about the Watts riots? Or Martin Luther nailing the 95 Thesis up? (Night Music p8). Effectively, that is telling Protestants that their religion was a mistake on the part of a overanxious Archangel. >"This product contains views of religion and recent history which may>offend >some readers, especially those who were involved in the events>portrayed. >We apologise for any distress caused to Holocaust victims >and>their >families." Although we may have strong feelings for the victims of tragedy, we also have to realize that patronizing them is an even worse crime, for it implies that we take our actions not for thier benefit, but to make sure that we look good and cover our own butts in the situation. Eventually, it would seem that we would care more for how we look in our sorrow, rather than the fact that many people died in the Holocaust. It's a game. We are mature enough to realize that. If you choose not to deal with those topics, fine. But please don't chastise others for their views. Brian Ward On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:49:12 +0000 (GMT) Steve Jessop writes: > >You've just hit a topic which offends me, even if I am not personally >affected. I expect it offends many others, too. > >WW2 was given a pretty wide berth by White Wolf, for some very good >reasons, about which I shall now rant. > >The Nazis committed the worst human atrocities in living memory, >probably >in history. Many of the guilty parties have been convicted, and >rightly >reviled, for their actions. If we start pretending that the humans>involved are not wholly responsible, that there was some supernatural>agencies behind it all, then we are obscuring, in a tiny way, that >which>should be plain and open for everyone to see, and detest. > >If even one person reads about some Nazi crime in a SJGames supplement >before they read about it from a source that claims historical >accuracy, >then straight away they have a false view. SJGames are good, but they >do>not have the authority to deliver the Holocaust to the general public. > >The comment about Goebbels is a case in point: if you say he was a >Bal, he >becomes a fictional character. An evil one, true, but Goebbels should>stand as something far worse than fictional evil (especially tacky,>tongue-in-cheek fictional evil like Nybbas). He was real, he was >human,>and he was involved in the most morally repugnant organisation in >recent >history. Period. > >By all means do it IYC, at a level appropriate to your historical>knowledge. But I personally would hate to see it in the shops, even >with a>big disclaimer: > >"This product contains views of religion and recent history which may>offend some readers, especially those who were involved in the events>portrayed. We apologise for any distress caused to Holocaust victims >and>their families." > >That is just not on, in my opinion. > >Steve. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:58:53 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> WW2 David Edelstein wrote: [snip] > Now, I would disagree with the depiction > of Goebbels as a demon simply because I don't like making every important > historical figure a celestial because it makes humans irrelevant. IOW, > *yes*, the Holocaust was very much a *human* evil. But I think it would be > unrealistic to say that something that huge didn't have demons behind it on > many levels, in an In Nomine universe. [snip] Just an aside: Saminga's extended write-up in Night Music explicitly states that humans were responsible for the Holocaust. (Saminga has been envious of that "achievement" ever since.) Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #623 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.