From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Feb 13 01:19:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26268 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:19:19 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA01520 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:20:17 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:20:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199802130720.BAA01520@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #626 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, February 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 626 In this digest: Re: IN> Personable Elohim Re: IN> Useful link (?) IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> Titles that should never be Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII IN> Re: Re: IN> Elohim Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII IN> Probably final WW2 posting... IN> Oliver Cromwell & In Nomine Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Re: IN> WW2 IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations IN> FLUFF - Angel of Laughter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:38:56 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Personable Elohim > Do non-dissonant Elohim actually have personalities? Like if you > left your Elohim in a bar with a few others and went to pick it up > later, how long would it take before you realised you had got the > wrong one? Well, they can only act on emotions if they have a non-emotional reason to do so. Having a personality allows other people to pick you out from a sea of Elohim, so therefore it's not dissonant. But you have to be restrained about it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:38:56 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Useful link (?) > I think the main thing is just to be aware that it was traditionally > devised/ studied by rabbonim so don't expect to pick up on most of > the intended associations/ symbolism (ie. they'll be taking a huge > amount of background for granted) Yeah, there is that. On the other hand, it means that I can just fudge my way through a lot of it, and any players aren't likely to know enough to contradict me... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:38:56 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: IN> Kabbalah > > > Or ten? Anybody up for my quick and dirty interpretation of the > > > Kabbalic sephirot for In Nomine? > > > > Sure. I've been vaguely curious about Kabbala for a few months > > now. It seems an obvious resource for IN, if one can figure out > > how to use it. > > Didn't Isaac Luria say that you had to be at least 40 and a trained > Rabbi to study the 32 paths? There is that restriction, yes. But there was also a book on Kabbalah that was on the discount rack of Barnes & Nobles, which has no age restriction for buying books that don't have nudie pictures. I play a Kabbalic sorcerer in a face to face GURPS game, so I figured I'd read up on it a bit. My mind started making the connections. Like I said, real quick and dirty. It probably won't be what you were thinking of, but it could at least start some conversation. In Kabbalic lore, there are ten aspects to Ein Sof (lit. "endless" - God in his most primeval). They are often arranged in a complex web, emminating from one another. The ten are: Keter - lit. Crown. Interpreted (in my book) as Will and/or Ayin (lit. Nothingness). All the other sephirah descend from Keter, who eminates from Ein Sof. Binah - lit. Understanding. Interpreted as Palace and/or Womb. Originates directly from Keter, connected to Hokhmah. Hokhmah - lit. Wisdom. Interpreted as Point and/or Beginning. Originates directly from Keter, connected to Binah. Gevurah - lit. Power. Interpreted as Rigor, Red, Left Arm, and/or Din (lit. Judgement). Originates from Binah and Hokhmah, connected to Hesed. Hesed - lit Love. Interpreted as Grace, White, and/or Right Arm. Originates from Binah and Hokhmah. Tif'eret - lit Beauty. Interpreted as Rahamim (lit. Compassion), Blessed Holy One, Heaven, Sun, Harmony, King, and/or Green. Originates from all five previous sephirot. Hod - lit Splendor. Interpreted as Prophecy and/or Left Leg. Originates from Gevurah and Tif'eret, connected to Netsah. Netsah - lit Eternity. Interpreted as Prophecy and/or Right Leg. Originates from Hesed and Tif'eret, connected to Hod. Yesod - lit Foundation. Interpreted as Tsaddiq (lit Righteous One), Covenant, and/or Phallus. Originates from Hod, Netsah, and Tif'feret. Shekhinah - lit Presence. Interpreted as Malkhut (lit Kingdom), Communion of Israel, Earth, Moon, Queen, Apple Orchard, and/or Rainbow. Originates from Yesod. They arrange something like this: K /|\ B-+-H |\|/| | * | |/|\| G-+-H |\|/| | T | |/|\| H-+-N \|/ Y | S Anyway, the interpretations. These are based on my campaign ideas; I'll try to explain the differences, but you'll have to reinterpret for regular In Nomine. Keter - God. In Kabbalah, Keter is unknowable and unreachable by the human mind. Hokhmah - Yves. Wisdom incarnate, and second most ineffable of the unknowable three (Keter, Binah, and Hokhmah) which humans are not supposed to understand. Binah - Michael. While his current Word is War, his power and age indicate that he could not have had that Word all his existance. And he is one of the first angels created by God. Gevurah - Uriel (who in my campaign is a cross between the In Nomine Uriel and Gabriel - word of Fire, first of the Malakim; she's fun stuff). Power and Judgement, which fit in well with Uriel's (ie - Gabriel's) Word. Hesed - Gabriel (who in my campaign has the word of Stone and is the patron of civilization in general). Like David, he believes in helping humans help each other, but he is also very loving. Tif'eret - Eli. Tif'eret is the balance between Hesed and Gevurah, between God's love and God's judgement, and acts as the center of the sefirotic body. Also, Tif'eret is the standard rabbinical name for God, which makes for an interesting parralel with Eli's name. Hod - Alain (Jordi, but I like the original name better). One of the two AAs left to assign (in my game), and while it doesn't fit him great, it'll do. Also, his personality associates more with Uriel's personality than with Gabriel's. Netsah - Janus. Again, it doesn't fit well, but it'll do. Yesod - The last two are symbolic more than represented by an Archangel. Yesod is symbolic of the Saints and Soldiers (and Angels, to an extent); God's intermediaries with humanity. Moses is probably the best personification of this, although an updated Kaballah might include Jesus or Mohammed, instead. Shekhinah - Symbolic of the Kingdom of Israel, and (more broadly) the Symphony as a whole. Note that this may been seen as an example of the universe as a proper subset of God (panatheism, I think). On the other hand, if Keter is God, than maybe Ein Sof is everything, of which God is simply a part (and if anybody can tell me what style of religeon that is, I'd be grateful)... Primary source: _The Essential Kabbalah_, Daniel C. Matt. I may post more once I make sense of stuff the book has on the letter system...it'll may be a magic system of some sort. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:38:56 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Titles that should never be > Being the fluid creature I am, unable to remain static in action for > any length of time, I started simply brainstorming new ideas for In > Nomine adventures. Often, I spark upon a title, and an adventure > forms from there. Here are some I've come up with. Many will soon > be posted on my website. Some will not. Play with them at your > leisure, or build your own adventures around them. Cool stuff - Asmodeus Rising sounds like a fun one to play in an all-demon group... Here's one of mine (no title): Jeremy Smith was a pretty normal kid, until one day, in a fight at school, he lashed out with *something*, and laid his tormentor's cheek open to the bone. Most people who saw it claim he had a knife, but he and his parents know better. He has been having other incidents of this lately, and he can now put out candles simply by concentrating on them... The back story isn't very canon, but fun none-the-less. Habanile, a Calabim, was one of the first Earth-side casualties in the first War. Lacking a Heart, he plunged into Limbo, where he spent the rest of his time slowly loosing his forces and his mind. At first he tried to make a vessel, but then as the millenia stretched on, his warped mind started trying *anything*; he'd lash out with songs of Light, trying to burn a hole out of Limbo. Finally, something succeeded; he blew all of his Essence on the Song of Possession, and got really lucky (666). He emerged from Limbo, two Celestial forces tied to a Corporeal one, and was trapped in an embryo of a human at the moment of conception. If Jeremy were found out, he would very easily become the center of a raging horizontal shitstorm. Is he the same soul he once was, or is he now partially human? Can he be redeamed, and what will happen if he is? And why doesn't he cause *any* disturbance, with or without his resonance (this one is optional, but I like it...)? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:38:56 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII > The japanese would routinely starve their prisoners to death. > Explain how nazi-death camps could be divinely ordained?? They weren't, I think. The Free Will behind them was, however, for better or worse. Yes, it's very mature, and very dark; don't play this if you enjoy not having nightmares and dry heaves at points, IMO. It's a very good way to get angelic PCs to voluntarily fall, and make everybody question who's on the right side... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:57:14 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII > See? Good. Maybe. Depending on your view. (Me, I wouldn't run such > a seed myself. I wouldn't trust myself to be able to give it the > *horror* that such a game would *require*.) > > In Nomine Walking On Knives -- when you make your angels have to > choose the lesser of two evils, and they aren't ever sure they made > the right choice... If I could (and this requires good players, too) I would in an instant. It's a great (if horrific) way to generate player angst and self-doubt... Although, to be fair, I would probably set it in the future, with a similar sort of problem that's just breaking out. More dramatic tension (because the players don't know anything for sure) and less likely to catch somebody's bad side. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:57:14 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: IN> Re: > (This is the entirety of what I know about Cromwell IMC. I would > love to come up with a plausible reason for him to be in a medium > sized North Carolina town, rather than in say London, but I can't > think of one and without it can't justify the work it would take to > develop him.) He's a Saint. Though the work may still be too much... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:57:14 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Elohim > >If he dresses like this when his best chance of success is to play the > >religious right, he's asking for it. If however he needs to win the > >admiration of pot smokers at the local high school to keep them out of > >trouble, listen for Bob Marley tunes coming from his beat up car. > > So how can you tell if you did pick up the right Elohim from the > bar?? Put in the same situation, they'd all do the same thing. > Probably in the same way. That's the beauty of subjective objectivity. They are never in exactly the same situation... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:57:14 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction > >> Yikes. There are some people Lilith just should not... now I love > >> Laurence. That's why I beat him up and put him through angst hell. > >> But he just should never have any Lilim who call him 'Dad'. > > > >Although K.K. might dream about it from time to time... > > She'd do it just to watch his face. "Search your feelings, Laurence! > You know it to be true! I *am* your daughter!" I'm imagining something more like Lolita, but make of it what you will... > >> - Em, who read a Lust story elsewhere, and got grossed out totally. > >> Lust + Death = Nastiness. > > > >Nathaniel, who just read Maya's stories. Lust + Nastiness = Shedim > >Pit...*shudder*. > > Shedim Pit? What, is this "Hunt"? Or one of the others? The Hunt, IIRC. Very funny stuff - I liked the "Where'd the Renegade go?" bluff... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:08:23 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII [amazing plot seed for WWII with the Host helping the Axis snipped] >Interesting? Yes, especially since it's a fleshed-out version of what I already was thinking. Note that I'm strongly on the "abolute morality, with Shades of Grey" camp -- I just think sometimes Destiny requires something hard of the angels. As I hope the players in my FTF game wiill find out, eventually. -Loki (hi, Jason) - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:31:01 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns >The thought is simple really: The Holocaust happened in the real world >(despite revisionist attempts to rewrite it) and was not aborted by the >Malakim. Why? Think about how nasty the Holocaust was? Can you >possibly say it wasn't Evil? Of course not, but why wasn't it stopped? >Free Will baby. The Humans must be left to do their own good/evil. Now >I'm sure that the Malakim killed all of the Demons that were influencing >key Nazi officials and worked within the Allied front to help, but >direct assasination of Hitler would have been too much interference in a >lesson that the Humans need to learn. I've seen a lot of these themes elsewhere in various games and other forms of fiction. Personally, the idea I always preferred, put into In Nomine terms, would be thus: In order for Mankind to archive its Destiny, it needed a taste of its own Fate. -Loki (I'm impressed how compact that is -- it takes a lot more explaination otherwise. Ah, the wonders of Jargon.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:18:51 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII >Yep :) This is about as mature as it gets. Sorry, but no way I would >ever consider running that. Hell, my dad was 9 during WWII, he would >kill me if he found out id done something like that. > >There was no way the Axis coulda been the good guys. The plot seed does not imply the Axis are good -- just necessary. It's like the Angel of Injustice that someone posted recently. Heaven has to look at the Big Picture -- and sometimes the Big Picture requires something Very Bad in the short term. I am, however, sympatheic to your discomfort -- it's certainly not a plot seed for everyone. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 22:29:58 PST From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Probably final WW2 posting... in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 624 Article the first: - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:52:04 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> WW2 David Edelstein wrote; > Now, I would disagree with the depiction >of Goebbels as a demon simply because I don't like making every important >historical figure a celestial because it makes humans irrelevant. Agreed. And Goebbels certainly wasn't a balseraph in any case (he killed himself, his wife, and his children shortly after the Fuhrer took his own life). Balseraphs would surely be saying "Well, Adolf old chum, it's been fun...Gotta run along now!". Himmler was far more important. Probably a competant sorceror. Perhaps more than Hitler himself. - ------------------------------ That's why I thought of only Goebbels as a demon. There's a great deal more impact if the majority of the inner circle are human. The word subtle probably understates the nature of the vast majority of celestial activity during the war. The only other significant celestials I would place in Germany during the war would be maybe some servitors of Michael and/or Baal in the wehrmacht. Most diabolical influence would takethe shape of middle management, writing policy and procedure, etc. There was a great deal of material destruction and death, which, if directly caused by celestials, would be very noisy indeed, perhaps echoing to this day. The question being, how noisy was WW2 in your campaign? Just another thing to think about... Bruce Article the second: - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:22:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII I would not run such a game myself, but: I don't think it works, though. If Hell wanted to prevent evil, I think Heaven would grin and let it. The disorganization this would cause in Hell -- and the dissent! Malphas, fasten your seat belt. -- plus the basic good this would do Earth, would far outweigh the bending of the free-will/hands-off policy, which is clearly bendable or we'd never hear about angels in the first place. And I don't think Hell would go for it. The atrocities brought some people to moral awareness and courage, but it brought others to self-induced moral blindness and cowardice and hatred and despair. Earl - ------------------------------ I think the crux of WW2, in the light of the celestial war, lies in Hitler's decision to invade Russia (you may notice that Pacific theatre is absent from this discussion, only because I know the ETO better. I'll welcome anyone to do a similar workup for the PTO). From the infernal POV, for Hitler to rest after conquering France would give nazi Germany the chance to institutionalize and secure their presence on the European continent, and to them, that would be a Good (Diabolical?) Thing. That would leave them time to rebuild and engage in a cold war with Russia and the UK, and containment of partisan activity. Fertile ground indeed for an infernal stronghold. A lesser goal would be to erode Hitler's denial/distrust/refusal of "Jewish" science. This would accomplish two things: sowing hipocrisy in the upper echelons of the party/government, always good for securing influence, and speeding development of advanced weapons technology. From the divine POV, every attempt needs to go to end the Axis' victories. This may require keeping Hitler alive and in power, and bringing the US into the war. Investigation is required to identify and terminate diabolical meddling in the Axis. Now the question is, how are some angels going to respond when they learn that some humans are this evil while completely free of infernal influence? And we haven't even started on Jean's and Vapula's work during WW2, the single greatest period of science and technology development of any armed conflict in human history. Bruce Article the last: - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:23:45 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> WW2 I did mention that my mind is like a slow cooker didn't I. I got back to thinking about the don't touch WWII, ang got to thinking along the subjects. This was a war in two theatres; Europe and South East Asia. (Well, Africa too; but who's counting?) Let me preface this by saying that this is just my idea for a game subject. It paints the Japanese of WWII in a demon light, and if this idea offends, then delete now: First of all, the balloon bombs; an idea that was to get Americans going nuts when they discovered that Japan was shipping bombs to be randomly dropped. Sounds like one of Nybbas' plots. Some celestial, or band there of, was capable of keeping these bombs out of the news... Second, the kamikaze. Now, wouldn't that just qualify as a Shedite's night out? Grab a body, strap it into a plane, make it kill itself and others. Armand - ------------------------------ If you've got more, bring it on...I'd be especially interested in hearing any ideas you may have on celestial influence in the political and cultural spheres that would bring Japan into the war, and influence their conduct of the war... Bruce <<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:55:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Oliver Cromwell & In Nomine >>> I have no idea why Cromwell gets so demonised -- [snip] <<< OK, point taken. Oliver Cromwell was a popularly demonized figure off the top of my head. In fact, you're right, Cromwell did do a number of good things -- ironically enough, he was a greater *supporter* of freedom of religion than most of his opponents. But he does have a lingering nasty reputation over the whole "Nits make lice" thing; the Irish certainly had reason to feel about him about the same way Jews felt about Hitler. Proof, IMO, that Cromwell was very much a human being, doing acts of great good along with acts of great evil. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:01:23 EST From: Heretic103@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement In a message dated 98-02-12 00:35:55 EST, you write: << 2) I agree that, given the nature of Hitler and the nature of the Malakim, there needs to be a good in-game reason why Hitler was never whacked by Malakim. >> I hope this comes across without affending anyone but I may have some reasons that hilter was not squashed by the host: 1) Hilter had faith in what he was doing was serving christiandom and all man, therefore I propose justifacation by faith 2) Maybe he promoted a word bound angel's perverted word much like the angel of teenage death 3) Maybe the host was more fearful of who or what would take his place 4) And my favorite personal believe maybe heaven didn't care ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:07:59 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> WW2 > I think the "official" take on WWII is that humans did it to > themselves almost entirely. Certainly celestials flocked to certain > areas and tried to help or hinder situations, as their natures and > agendas dictated. But Hitler was *human*. Most (probably all) of the > people around him, especially the ones who did the ordering, were also > human and not even Shedite possessed. (Those frustrated Malakim > probably made *sure* of that.) You might have had some "bug under the > table" from the Game, getting information. Or maybe not. (note: this is off topic. Its about as off topic as it can get. Its basically me ranting about world war two.) This is one of the things I have a problem with. Admittingly, the holocaust was probally the worst horror of the war. However, the Japanese involved were hardly saints either. They were largely reviled and hated by *everyone* in asia. They took over most of asia. Kamikaze pilots were given funerals and loaded into *bombs with wings* just on the hope that they would take out a carrier. Prisoners were starved. Nobody liked these people. Atleast until the people found out about concentration camps and such, the japanese took the crown when it came to the horrid war crimes. They forced us to basically blow the shit out of an island just to take it. There wasnt any other way. The alternative was to land on the beaches and get blown away from snipers in the trees. Not designed to survive, just to kill people until they died. They forced us to drop two atomic bombs, thus killing god knows how many innocent japanese people. Some people blame it on us, but we didnt have a choice. It was we loose a bunch of *our* people trying to invade japan, which *wouldnt* have been realistically possible, or it never ended. And yet. When people are talking about WWII, its always the germans that get the atrocitys attributed to them. Im not baised against the japanese or the germans. That was along time ago, and I honestly think things have changed. My grandfather, however, *is* biased. The things he witnessed as a 9 year old kid in florida during the way have made it where he will *NEVER* trust any japanese person again. Is that wrong? Yes. Do I blame him? I dont know, I didnt live through it. I only know that I lost one of my great-uncles in that war.. I never got to know him.. A zero got 'em. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:16:37 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII >>>There was no way the Axis coulda been the good guys.<<< Well, that's putting it a bit simplistically. Certainly, what the Germans did was evil on many levels. On the other hand, had they not been so ill-treated by the Treaty of Versailles after WWI, WWII might never have happened. The average German felt that the Third Reich was completely justified in everything it did -- granted, this required the average German to turn a blind eye to a great deal, including the Holocaust, but that makes them fallible, often selfish humans, but not intrinsically evil, nor was their cause, at least no more than any other war of conquest (like, say most of those that the U.S. fought on North and South American soil....) And the Japanese became aggressively expansionistic in large part because they were being hemmed in by American and European interests in the Pacific - -- had they not gone to war, they probably would have wound up a third-rate dependency of Western benevolence, as they had seen happen to many other Asian countries. Did that justify their conquest of their neighbors? No, no more than their cultural ethic that regarded surrender as an utterly dishonorable act justify their resulting poor treatment of prisoners -- but it did not make them inherently evil. It made them humans who fall prey to unsavory cultural biases. It's nice to reminisce with fond nostalgia about WWII, the "good war", where we were undisputedly the "good guys" and the Axis were undisputedly the "bad guys", but it just ain't that simple. I hardly think you could even make a strong argument that the average American or Brit was more benevolent, more enlightened, more tolerant, than the average German or Japanese at that time. We did, however, benefit from democratic societies which are in today's society commonly regarded as more benevolent than autocratic ones. >>>The japanese would routinely starve their prisoners to death. Explain how nazi-death camps could be divinely ordained??<<< As a lesson to humanity? As an example of the sort of evil that can happen if not opposed early enough? The Old Testament is full of God inflicting nasty punishments on innocent people just to make a point. And I believe the adventure seed in question was not even claiming the Nazi death camps were divinely ordained -- it looked more like they were completely human in origin, and the word from On High was that humans must deal with this without celestial interference. I don't buy it for canon In Nomine, myself, since it's established that celestials are *constantly* interfering in human events, and were unlikely to stay out of that one. But it *is* an interesting idea -- and anyone who goes apes*** at the mere suggestion probably lacks the maturity to play In Nomine. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:21:25 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII > The plot seed does not imply the Axis are good -- just necessary. It's > like the Angel of Injustice that someone posted recently. Heaven has > to look at the Big Picture -- and sometimes the Big Picture requires > something Very Bad in the short term. I am, however, sympatheic to > your discomfort -- it's certainly not a plot seed for everyone. From what I saw, it was the host not interfereing with the nazis. That I can understand. I dont really see the host as stopping human evil at all, just demonic evil. However, the host stopping anyone who *is trying to aid the allys* definatly implys that the Axis are the 'good guys'. Also, I cant imagine Yves being against helping the allys on any event. Just on the off chance that the Axis might *win* the war. If humans have free will, the war could go either way. Destiny wouldnt want the world to meet its fate at the hands of the Axis. Fate *would*. If there isnt freewill, then the outcome of the war is pre-decided anyways, and nothing really makes a diffrence. The angels wouldnt even have to worry about demons *at all*. If everything is already decided, there's no reason to fight back. Except that you were *forced* to fight back by the lack of free will.. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:23:17 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII > They weren't, I think. The Free Will behind them was, however, > for better or worse. Yes, it's very mature, and very dark; don't > play this if you enjoy not having nightmares and dry heaves at > points, IMO. It's a very good way to get angelic PCs to voluntarily > fall, and make everybody question who's on the right side... Read the other message that I posted. Basically, if free will is *that* important to the angels, the war is irrelevant. The demons *choose* to be evil, so they can. Thats their right via their free will. Lets go back to heaven. - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:14:00 -0500 From: The Baron Samedi Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII >Yes, especially since it's a fleshed-out version of what I already was >thinking. Note that I'm strongly on the "abolute morality, with Shades of >Grey" camp -- I just think sometimes Destiny requires something hard of the >angels. As I hope the players in my FTF game wiill find out, eventually. > -Loki (hi, Jason) I don't want to know. Da Baron Samedi, occasional Cherub of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:28:56 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations At 01:29 PM -0800 02/11/1998, Armand wrote: >>>>>Elric and the TechnoMages Mercurian and Soldiers in service to Jean. >>>>> >>>>Having seen "Geometry of Shadows" last Friday, I can't argue with your >>>>choice of Superior, though I'm not really sure how you conclude that >>>>Elric is a Merky. If I had to pick a Choir for him, off the top of my >>>>head, I'd say he's an Elo. > >I'm sorry, I haven't been listening to this line of conversation becasuse I >haven't seen the new B5 stuff yet. Could I get a description of the >afforementioned Elric? Keep it mostly visual. I have a friend who is >curious. > >Armand Mostly visual? Well, Elric was played by the very commanding presence of Micheal Ansara. Think old-time classic Western, think Cochise. An imposing balding figure with a deep resonant voice dressed mostly in black relieved by mysterious glyphs. Master of a group of clever knaves imposing themelves on fools. As I see it, the Technomages are the end result of one of the original subcultures of roleplayers, the techno-hackers. From what follows, these folks probably originate sometime after the Centauri contact, being a union of very similarly-hearted rebels who jointly decided to wig the "normals" of their respective worlds, come to think of it given their love of pagentry, the Centir auri probably had their own version of the Society for Creative Anachronisms. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:49:17 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> WW2 > They forced us to basically blow the shit out of an island just to > take it. There wasnt any other way. The alternative was to land on > the beaches and get blown away from snipers in the trees. Not > designed to survive, just to kill people until they died. I agreed with you right until here... > They forced us to drop two atomic bombs, thus killing god knows how > many innocent japanese people. Some people blame it on us, but we > didnt have a choice. It was we loose a bunch of *our* people trying > to invade japan, which *wouldnt* have been realistically possible, > or it never ended. The choice was not just an invade or bomb choice. It was a choice between a) accept their conditional surrender (which would have left the emperor safe), b) invade them, or c) bomb them. We bombed them, supposedly to show them that we had the power, but mostly to demonstrate to Russia that we had the power. We could have bombed an empty atoll and sent them film of the results, which would have demonstrated equally well. And when they unconditionally surrendered after the bombing, you know what? We left their damn emperor right where he was. > And yet. When people are talking about WWII, its always the germans > that get the atrocitys attributed to them. Oh, hell, no. But they didn't make us hit them. We hit them because we wanted to prove to Russia that we had power, and because we wanted them to grovel. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:49:17 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine flavor concerns > the idea I always preferred, put into In Nomine terms, would be > thus: In order for Mankind to archive its Destiny, it needed a > taste of its own Fate. So if it's Beth is to be humanity's savior, Haagenti must make baked Kronos the next hot food item? (sorry - the "archive its Destiny" caught me...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:08:06 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> [B5 SPOILERS] General observations > >Mostly visual? Well, Elric was played by the very commanding presence of >Micheal Ansara. Think old-time classic Western, think Cochise. An imposing >balding figure with a deep resonant voice dressed mostly in black relieved >by mysterious glyphs. Master of a group of clever knaves imposing >themelves on fools. As I see it, the Technomages are the end result of one >of the original subcultures of roleplayers, the techno-hackers. From what >follows, these folks probably originate sometime after the Centauri >contact, being a union of very similarly-hearted rebels who jointly decided >to wig the "normals" of their respective worlds, come to think of it given >their love of pagentry, the Centir auri probably had their own version of >the Society for Creative Anachronisms. > > >| | Frank Lazar He doesn't have an evil black sword that consumes the souls of those that it kills? (See, souls, it's still on topic, Yes!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:08:13 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> FLUFF - Angel of Laughter Okay so the joke was prompted by an off list exchange I was had and it must have bumped off the wrong neuron, or I've gone beyond work-avoidance to GM'ing-avoidance :) . ***** The Mercurian of Janus banged his Celestial fists on the rail of the dock "It was a *joke*" he yelled "You know HUMOUR!" The Seraph looked at his two companions. He had not been required to Judge this Angel before, but was aware of his reputation "Explain this humour to me." he said. "Humour, err sure that's not too hard" mumbled the Mercurian. He scratched his beard and rolled his eyes for a moment while the Tribunal watched unmoved. "Okay here's one for you. What's got 12 eyes and goes round and round and round?" The Seraph blinked "I do not know. What does have 12 eyes and goes round and round and round?" "Two Seraphim in a blender." There was a damning silence, then the Mercurian shrugged "It's a visual gag." A few minutes later the Registrar of Tribunals was signing the Mercurian's release documents "Thought you were going to be staying with us a while that time." The Mercurian smiled "You never can tell." The Cherub nodded "Pencil you in for next week?" he asked. Isaac shrugged "If it'll save you paperwork later on," he waved the Registrar a Peace sign "Don't Worry, Be Happy. Oh and tell Thummim he's a tough audience, but his halo's not _too_ tight." Walking out of the Halls of Judgement the Angel of Laughter mimed a pratfall over the threshold and his exit was heralded by the echoes of muffled chuckles. **** If I need more avoidance activiety I might even polish off the half write up of Issac currently lodged in my active memory cache. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #626 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.