From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Feb 13 18:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07418 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:19:27 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA19305 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:20:33 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:20:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199802140020.SAA19305@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #627 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, February 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 627 In this digest: Re: IN> Swipe IN> Eli - Creation and Creativity Re: IN> Elohim IN> WW2 IN> Lust Fiction Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement IN> In> What if? (was WWII) Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Re: IN> WW2 Re: IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> In Nomine High Re: IN> In> What if? (was WWII) Re: IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII IN> Request Re: IN> Request Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Re: IN> Eli - Creation and Creativity Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement IN> FLUFF: In Nomine flavor concerns IN> online gaming site... IN> Hitler, a latter day Job Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job Re: IN> WW2 Free Will (Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII) Re: IN> WW2 IN> Maya Fan Club (Re: Lilim and Reproduction) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:12:28 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Swipe > >My first post to the list :::-/ Well can't let it go by without commenting then :) . >How about the one where the Balseraph of Valefor kills some bloke, and the >cops come looking for him and a murder weapon that he's nicely swiped? ( >"Gun? what gun?" ) Cool. Also I think you might be able to twist a GM's arm into making Swipe very useful for dealing with handcuffs, straight jackets, door locks and window panes. Take that suicide pill? Not a problem :) . Additionally I can see Janusites in the ancient world with Swipe being useful medically for withdrawing arrows and such. >Craw-Wurm >Seraph of Michael Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:02:28 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Eli - Creation and Creativity Dear List Point for contemplation. I had previously lumped most Words related to Crativity under Eli, but recently rethought and wondered who else could claim a slice of that action. Certainly Janus could, who else better to be a source of inspiration. Gabriel also could indle some creative fires and artistic passions. And Jean might fire up the occassional lightbulb for the odd genius, if he wasn;t such a Luddite :) . Thanking you for your Indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:53:00 +0500 From: daiv@cruzio.com (David M. Barr) Subject: Re: IN> Elohim > >Elohim are stoic, not dead. They can have personalities and may even be >funny at times. I doubt they make great comedians but they play execellant >straight men. Whic does not intrinsically restrain them from being comedians. I submit, Steven Wright, Elohim Of Janus (or maybe Eli?) {if you do not know who steven wright is, find out). - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:33:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> WW2 >>>The choice was not just an invade or bomb choice. It was a choice between a) accept their conditional surrender (which would have left the emperor safe), b) invade them, or c) bomb them.<<< What conditional surrender was that? I don't recall that Japan ever offered any such surrender, though it's believed they were *considering* it. (Many members of the Japanese Imperial Cabinet were opposed, though.) >>>We bombed them, supposedly to show them that we had the power, but mostly to demonstrate to Russia that we had the power. We could have bombed an empty atoll and sent them film of the results, which would have demonstrated equally well.<<< Well, if that were true, we wouldn't have had to bomb *two* cities. We bombed one, and that wasn't enough to convince them. >>>And when they unconditionally surrendered after the bombing, you know what? We left their damn emperor right where he was.<<< We stripped him of his divine status in the new Japanese constitution, and that made a profound change in their society. >>>Oh, hell, no. But they didn't make us hit them. We hit them because we wanted to prove to Russia that we had power, and because we wanted them to grovel.<<< Demonstrating our power to Russia might have been an added benefit, but if it was just about showing Russia we had the Bomb, a film would have sufficed for that purpose. And we didn't make Japan grovel anywhere near as badly as we could have or as badly as some would have liked. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:45:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: IN> Lust Fiction I was going to repost this earlier, on the grounds that I had forgotten to put IN> in the subject header, making it look a) like spam, and b) pornographic, and thus making it unlikely to be read but the server on which my account resided died, so I couldn't. Anyway, here goes. (And someone respond to it please, because I need my ego fix.) OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER NOTICE. Nothing within these pages should be interpreted as being in any way creative. The characters, situations, and events portrayed below were all either based on real people, or on the works of other people. The author reserves the right to complain at length to anyone who gives him any credit for this work. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. LUST FICTION Three men and a woman are sitting at a table. The woman has blonde hair in ringlets and wears a rather low-cut blouse. Across from her is a dark-haired man in an expensive suit and an expensive haircut. Both of them are smoking, and the smoke is being blown towards a fair-haired man in a somewhat less expensive but exceptionally neat suit. It looks fine, but there's something about the cuffs that's bothering him. It seems that the buttons aren't aligned correctly and he has to keep readjusting them. Across from him, beside the fan, is a much less elegant man. His pitch- black hair clearly hasn't been combed in a long time, and his clothes, while new and fashionable, look rather dishevelled. He's occupied making obscene origami sculptures with the paper left from the butts of the cigarettes left by the people beside him, and then ripping them apart before they're finished. The fan is blowing his hair all over the place, but he doesn't seem to mind. Expensive Man: So, in your opinion, which angels are the best fucks? Neither of the other men pay any attention. The Woman leans forward. Woman: We are, of course. The Messy Man looks up at this. Messy Man: I think he was referring to angels who actually happened to _be_ angels. Woman: We are angels, and you'd better not forget it or you're in severe trouble. Expensive Man: Come on. There's no need for this. No one is questioning your divinity. He's just winding you up, that's all. Neat Man: If she wants to call herself an angel, then she's an angel. What do you care? The Woman glares at the the Neat Man, then leans back in her chair. After a drag, she looks calm again. Expensive Man: However, I was referring to angels who worked directly for Heaven, not, as it were, through subcontractors. The Woman and the Neat Man don't volunteer anything. The Neat Man starts fixing his tie. The Expensive Man looks at the Messy Man, who stares up at the ceiling before answering. Messy Man: Well, being something of a traditionalist, I prefer Kyriotates. Anything that can make itself pregnant is just far too damn cool. Woman: When are you going to give up on your obsession with pregnancy? It's disgusting, that's what it is. Those fucking little parasites stealing your life energy, making you sick and fat and ugly. Don't ever mention that subject in my presence again. Messy Man: Why are you so upset? It's not as if it's gonna happen to you, is it? Or has it? Expensive Man: Do you know what I think you are? Messy Man: What? Expensive Man: You're a fucking Servitor of Malphas. Messy Man: Bullshit. You've seen me with our Prince. Expensive Man: That doesn't mean anything. You could be on loan, for all I know. Woman: I doubt Servitors of Malphas are that fucking inept. Expensive Man: His ineptness is a cover for the fact that he's a Servitor of Malphas. If fights broke out constantly around him but he never took part himself, it would be too obvious. So he starts them blatantly as a cover. Neat Man: By that logic, I am obviously a Servitor of Malphas, so there's no way I could possibly be one. Expensive Man: Exactly. Is anyone here accusing you of being a Servitor of Malphas? Woman: We're wandering away from the point. Ofanim are the best. Messy Man: Ofanim? You're fucking sick. The Messy Man looks down at what he's just crafted, cringes and flings it from him. Woman: They've got great stamina, they always keep going, and they can do _amazing_ positions. And you need a strong Vessel to stay intact when they get excited. Messy Man: They can't fucking stay in one place! You talk about fucking positions, but they won't stay in them for more than two seconds at a time. They won't even stay in the one room. You have to fucking beat them unconscious before they stop. He has to force himself to stop talking, and for several minutes afterwards he's shaking with rage and ripping up the butts in front of him frenziedly. Everyone is staring at him, but he doesn't stop, or even seem to notice. Expensive Man: Back to the subject... Woman: What's the bets he's going to say Malakim? The Expensive Man ignores her. In fact he doesn't seem to have heard what she said. Expensive Man: You're both wrong. The best fucks, of all the angels, are Elohim. The entire table, even the Neat Man, look up and stare at him. The Woman is not what you would call pleased. Woman: Those weak-willed shits?? They're nothing more than rite fodder. They never know anything about how to do it, and their enthusiasm is just embarrassing. You might as well have sex with your dog. Messy Man: Easy, she says. Not all of us are Habbalah, you know. Some of us have to rely on our fucking talent to get someone interested, instead of using bloody magic. And for anyone else, it's next to impossible. There's a reason they never have any experience, you know. Expensive Man: If you can't seduce someone without using powers you shouldn't be in this outfit. And anyway, you're all missing the point. The great thing about Elohim is that they're so _compliant_. He pauses for a moment. Neat Man: Since you're going to say it anyway whether we want to listen or not, could you please get on with it? Expensive Man: The trick is, right, to find some project that the angel has to work with a demon for. Messy Man: Easily achieved, especially without the Game noticing. Expensive Man: And then you make it clear that the price of your cooperation is that he or she has to become your lover. Let them resonate you if you want in order to confirm it. And then it's fucking dissonant for the Elohite not to have sex with you. The Expensive Man sits back and laughs. Messy Man: Unless of course it's my esteemed colleague sitting there beside you. It's no good having cooperation with two broken arms and two broken legs. Neat Man: It was perfectly consensual. She even testified to that in court. And I can truthfully say that my services were never in so much demand as they have been since. Messy Man: That would have been impressive, if so many of them hadn't been Shedim in disguise. The Woman reaches over and pulls his hair hard. Woman: Don't mind him. He's just jealous because no one wants _him_ to break their legs. Expensive Man: The important thing is that it's _also_ dissonant for the Elohite not to agree to whatever acts you wish. And they're not judgemental. One position is as good as another to them. Even if they find out you don't really want to do something except in order to humiliate them, the worst you're going to get is a polite refusal. Woman: So if you go to the trouble, they're compliant. So what? They still have no technique. Expensive Man: You fucking teach them. And teach them to enjoy it, so that they're begging you for more of it. And like I said, if you need powers to achieve that, you shouldn't be working for us. And they're motivated. If they want to keep you happy, they'd better learn those techniques quickly. Messy Man: Easily said when you have those powers. And how often has this worked for you, anyway? Expensive Man: Two or three times. Messy Man: Two or three? You don't remember? Expensive Man: I think one of them might have had two Vessels. Messy Man: And you couldn't tell whether it was the same person or not? Not even after all those techniques you taught her? Or was it a her? Expensive Man: They were both hers, and it was dodgy. The second time, she didn't seem to know stuff, but I reckoned she might have been hiding it. The Woman looks thoughtful. The Messy Man seems to be looking for more objections, but can't find any. The Neat Man looks down at his watch, then sighs and starts changing the time on it. Still looking down, he asks... Neat Man: If you've had so many Elohim, how come you're not a Knight? Expensive Man: Just because I'm not a Knight now doesn't mean I was never one. The Woman taps the Neat Man on his shoulder. Woman: What time is it? Neat Man: 19:05. Woman: We're late. Why didn't you tell us the fucking time? The Neat Man shrugs and keeps fiddling with watch. Exeunt Omnes, with the Neat Man last. (c)1998 Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:04:42 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Heretic103 writes >I hope this comes across without affending anyone but I may have some reasons >that hilter was not squashed by the host: > >1) Hilter had faith in what he was doing was serving christiandom and all >man, therefore I propose justifacation by faith Faith in what he was doing, yes. but serving christiandom? Vlad Tepes *was* serving chrissendom :) Adolf wasn't taken out for the same reason other despots, and serial killers, and murderers aren't. Because *we* are supposed to stop them. "There's nothing wrong with people getting shot...So long as its the right kind of people." - Dirty Harry in 'Magnum Force'. - -- Jules - Now the Demon of Slippery Slopes. jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:29:39 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> In> What if? (was WWII) What If... Yves had hopes of seeing the Axis powers achieve victory yet without Hitler or any of his cronies running the show? He may have had words with Michael about motivating some of his wermacht officers into the 1944 assassination attempt on Hitler. And of course Mike starts to think if this is really *just* to stop the bad guys... Maybe Yves had reasons to go for an alternate future where the axis _did_ win but with different command structures? Maybe all the scheming of the diabolicals actually ended up backfiring in their faces and a glorious new world order established? Fnord. - -- Jules - Now the Demon of Slippery Slopes. jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:35:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Heretic103@aol.com wrote: > Hilter had faith in what he was doing was serving christiandom > and all man, therefore I propose justifacation by faith Except that Hitler despised Christianity. In so far as he promoted any religion, it was a revival of Odin-worship, which was probably just part of his propaganda system, as far as he was concerned. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:50:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> WW2 I understand your rant. The reasons for focusing on the Germans are, I think, simply and rather petty. Things like: - Racism: The Germans were more like mainstream WASP America, so their misdeeds are more shocking and interesting than the misdeeds of a people of another race with a more foreign culture. - Racism again: The Japanese victims were very largely Asians and (racistly) so what? - Genocide: The Japanese slaughtered as part of the operations of conquest and bloodlust. They didn't particularly want to wipe out peoples. The Germans very specifically did. That puts the whole thing in the form of a horridly fascinating idea. - Proximity: The most famous German victims, the Jews, had members in every Western country, who were highly visible and articulate. - Religion: Because Hitler targeted the Jews, he also targeted part of the Christian religious system. Of course, Christendom has been quite anti-Semitic itself, but not nearly AS anti-Semitic (as recently) as the Nazis, and simply by involving Jews in the slaughter, Hitler stimulated the religious-interest nerves, however vaguely and indirectly. The Japanese did not. (These last two reasons have a lot to do with why Jews come to mind first when we think of the Holocaust, while all the other groups may not come to mind at all.) None of this makes the German atrocities worse than the Japanese; it just explains why they hold our attention more. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:32:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kabbalah Thanks for the rundown. As I understand it, the connections between the ten aspects are also significant. There are 22 of them, one for each Hebrew letter. That would be more than enough for all the Archangels so far in canon. Also, there are "shadow aspects," in some Kabbalistic systems, called "Qlippoth," or "husks," which could be matched up to various Demon Princes, if you want to go on playing that game. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:35:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kabbalah Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Note that this may been seen as an example of > the universe as a proper subset of God (panatheism, I think). Close. "Panentheism." > On the > other hand, if Keter is God, than maybe Ein Sof is everything, of > which God is simply a part (and if anybody can tell me what style of > religeon that is, I'd be grateful)... It's just standard monotheism, where God is the first and greatest thing, but not everything. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:04:45 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine High >In Nomine High Ya know, when I say this I thought it was something totally different ;) Good stuff all the same. So where is Michael and Beth? - -Jesse M.J. is my valentine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:18:13 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> In> What if? (was WWII) Jules wrote: >What If... >Fnord. Does Harry Turtledove know about this? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:37:31 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Kabbalah On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > Note that this may been seen as an example of > > the universe as a proper subset of God (panatheism, I think). > > Close. "Panentheism." Especially since "panatheism" would imply a universal lack of belief in God. cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:44:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII > I have to interject here; if you read a lot of the lesser source books for > both Vampire and Werewolf, you'll find a lot of references to WWII. Some > notable Malkavians who were behind concentration camp administration > (Chicago by Night, Book of the Wyrm) Many of the Garou were for or against > the war (the tribebooks for Bone Gnawers, Get of Fenris, etc.) Just check > out some of the Clanbooks, they talk about a number of things that they > did/not do to "aid" people in the camps. > I think Clanbook: Ravnos has it that the Tremere attempted to use the Holocaust as a cover for an attempt to destroy the Ravnos (through the mortal bloodlines they're based on, aka gypsies). Not that this means it was necessarily true or official clan policy, of course. But, having flicked through Berlin by Night, I was interested, to say the least, to discover that the Tremere decided that Heinrich Himmler was a good candidate for the Embrace. And of course, Mage involves WWII pretty heavily in its history, with the Technocracy and Akashic Brothers splitting, a number of prominent Verbena and Hermetics supporting the Axis, and an involvement of Nephandi so prominent as to cause a temporary alliance between the Traditions and Technocracy. Changeling, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't mentioned it, but I'd wait for Kithbook: Redcaps before drawing final conclusions about it. (The amount of Dark Glamour created by the events that surrounded the war must have been _very_ substantial.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. (Just working on behalf of his Word.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Request Hey - Does anyone know of, or is working on an IN Module for Washington DC? Or knows of some particularly good web sites for research? I need to write something module-ish before my next game session (Feburary 27th), and I've only been there once. THANKS! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:57:38 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Request At 12:29 -0500 2/13/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >Does anyone know of, or is working on an IN Module for Washington DC? Or >knows of some particularly good web sites for research? I've been working on In Nomine Virginia; however, it only briefly touches on Washington, DC. (It only gives enough information to help explain Northern VA, which is a suburban hell, IMHO.) SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:08:11 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement - ---------- > From: Earl Wajenberg > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement > Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:35 AM > > Heretic103@aol.com wrote: > > > Hilter had faith in what he was doing was serving christiandom > > and all man, therefore I propose justifacation by faith > > Except that Hitler despised Christianity. In so far as he > promoted any religion, it was a revival of Odin-worship, which > was probably just part of his propaganda system, as far as he > was concerned. > And even that he perverted beyond recognition, unfortunately. Now a beautiful religion such as Asatru will always be associated in some people's minds with Nazism. Most Asatru that I know are disgusted with what Hitler did to their religion (and justifiably disgusted, I might add). Now the question is, "Where did Hitler get the idea of the Aryan race?" The answer (IMHO) is, unfortunately, the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson. In it, he discusses a possible history of the Nordic peoples; that they possibly came from the East; that the chief of this people was Thor and his son was Odin. But nowhere (that I recall) does Sturluson give any racial attributes of these proto-Norse, unlike the blond-haired/blue-eyed Aryans. But most of the Asatru that I know discount this story altogether. Their contention is that Sturluson wrote it having no proof of his contentions (which might be a true statement; I have evidence neither way). > Earl Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7789233 MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:11:55 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Eli - Creation and Creativity At 18:02 13/02/98, you wrote: > And Jean might fire up the occassional lightbulb for >the odd genius, if he wasn;t such a Luddite :) . > If an inspiration could be reasonably described as hitting you like 'a bolt from the blue' then it was probably Jean ;-) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:36:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Hitler, a quick restatement Thomas Davidson wrote: > Now the question is, "Where did Hitler get the idea of the Aryan > race?" The answer (IMHO) is, unfortunately, the Prose Edda by > Snorri Sturluson. You may be right, but similar ideas were thick on the ground then. Nowadays, we tend to think of only three to five human races, when we don't regard the whole concept as a (probably noxious) social construct. In the 19th and early 20th century, there were oodles of "races." Jews were a race, and so were Irish. Americans (WASP ones, anyway) were sometimes a "new race." A folk anthropology of race, with physical and spiritual attributes attached to each, was part of the general world-picture. There were spinoffs in both science and occultism, which Hitler might have picked up. There was (and is) a theory of a linguistic and cultural group called the Aryans by the theorists, who spread out from some area near the Caspian to found nations and ethinic groups with similar languages all over Europe and India. This is now called the Indo-European Invasion. "Invasion" is perhaps over-colorful, since it could have been very slow and not always warlike, but it's a lot more fun to picture warrior bands like Huns and Mongols (only blond) sweeping in and conquering. I'm sure Nazis would think it fun, anyway. On the occult side, each ethnic group was often thought of as having a general national spirit and/or national destiny that gave these groups metaphysical status. In James Webb's "Occult Underground," he describes how 19th-century mystics waxed poetic about France or Poland being a "crucified Christ-nation" for suffering various military indignities So Hitler had plenty of raw material to hand. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:28:29 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> FLUFF: In Nomine flavor concerns >(sorry - the "archive its Destiny" caught me...) Achive, achive. Sheeh, you people... ;) -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:42:16 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> online gaming site... You must visit http://www.irpgg.com/ It's an rpg support site with - get this - chat rooms with built in dice rollers... It doesn't get a whole lot of traffic, either... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:08:45 -0500 From: jesse Subject: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No." Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but The next time you see me comin' you better run" Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?" God says, "Out on Highway 61." - -Bob Dylan, Highway 61 Revisted Four reasons why the Malakim didn't kill Hitler: 1: Now it seems to me that throughout the Bible God has not has not had his angels do the killing mostly. In general it is man who kills. Notable exceptions include: the Flood, Passover, Sodom, Exodus, and when the Ark was captured. Other times, such as David's exploits, Solomon's conquering, Abraham's son, and the story about the grandsons of Abraham killing the rapists of their sister, God's people have done the killing. It seems to me that the only time in which God intervenes in the Bible is when the Jews are stuck, that is the Jews could not solve the problem on their own. Other times He trusted the Jews and the other people of the earth to solve their own problems. This may be why Heaven did not directly intervene on the side of the Allies. Heaven knew that the Allies had the means to win the war on mortal terms so they did not intervene on a large scale. 2: Throughout the Bible there are examples of God testing men. Examples of this include Abraham almost killing his son, Moses, Job, Adam and Eve, Peter, Mary etc. Why should it stop at 33AD? Could it be that Heaven had another test for us in WWII? Pre- haps Hitler was tested in seeing how men act with power. If so the angels may have set Hitler up and then stood back and watched what happens. 3: Maybe the angels knew better. If they had killed Hitler, would that have stopped the war or the Holocaust? I don't think so. 4: Maybe those occult rituals really did work... Just some thoughts. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:08:22 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job What makes people so content to believe that all angels were opposing Hitler anyway? If David supports skinheads, why not Nazis? Although their methods were atrocious, Marc might be impressed with the smooth efficiency of Nazi Germany. The Archangel of the Sword may be interested enough in cutting away non-Christian heresy that he might not move as swiftly as he should. It's widely known that although he instigated monstrous acts of inhumane suffering, he was a strong advocate against cruelty to animals. Would purging the world of "impure" people and promoting animal welfare be raising a lot of alarms in Jordi's ranks? So long as Hitler gains power and influence, more and more "good" people put down their plowshares and pick up guns to "fight for right"...hardly a position Michael would shirk away from. Yves' wisdom would teach him that the heart of hope and motivation is forged in the fires of pain and fear. It's important to remember that Archangels are just as politicly motivated as any mortal, perhaps more so. They seek to enforce God's will, and their word, in the Symphony. God's not around for an interview, leaving their word a primary motivator. - ---jesse wrote: > [SNIP] > Four reasons why the Malakim didn't kill Hitler: > > 1: Now it seems to me that throughout the Bible God has not has not > had his angels do the killing mostly. In general it is man who > kills. Notable exceptions include: the Flood, Passover, Sodom, > Exodus, and when the Ark was captured. Other times, such as David's > exploits, Solomon's conquering, Abraham's son, and the story about > the grandsons of Abraham killing the rapists of their sister, God's > people have done the killing. It seems to me that the only time > in which God intervenes in the Bible is when the Jews are stuck, > that is the Jews could not solve the problem on their own. Other > times He trusted the Jews and the other people of the earth to > solve their own problems. This may be why Heaven did not > directly intervene on the side of the Allies. Heaven knew that the > Allies had the means to win the war on mortal terms so they did not > intervene on a large scale. > > 2: Throughout the Bible there are examples of God testing men. > Examples of this include Abraham almost killing his son, Moses, > Job, Adam and Eve, Peter, Mary etc. Why should it stop at 33AD? > Could it be that Heaven had another test for us in WWII? Pre- > haps Hitler was tested in seeing how men act with power. If so > the angels may have set Hitler up and then stood back and watched > what happens. > > 3: Maybe the angels knew better. If they had killed Hitler, > would that have stopped the war or the Holocaust? I don't think so. > > 4: Maybe those occult rituals really did work... == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:36:01 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> WW2 A few alternate histories in which the Malakim kill off Hitler earlier than when he died "in real history". 1) Hitler is bumped off before Germany attacks the USSR. The generals (eventually) get a peace signed with England, but the anti-Jewish Nazis retain power. The Holocaust still engulfs everything under German control while Stalin still massacres people on the Soviet side of the border. Totalitarianism rules 3/4 of Europe instead of 1/2, and the later Soviet-German war in 1948 never involves a British-American liberation of Western Europe. Germany wins the Soviet War and the Holocaust engulfs the rest of Europe anyway, and an evil superpower with a larger industrial, resource, and population base than the Soviet sphere of 1945-1989 emerges. 2) Hitler is bumped off a week after Normandy. The generals seize power and, when they realize the German position is untenable, surrender. Like after WWI, the German people blame their defeat on internal betrayal ("after all, the front was still on French soil!"). German nationalism results in Bad Things later. 3) Hitler is killed a week after becoming Chancellor. Germany erupts in chaos and civil war over the assassination. After five or so years of turmoil, Germany becomes a Stalin-style Marxist dictatorship. At the same time Stalinists gain power in Spain when the Nationalists are left without Nazi support. German and Russian backed revolutions and invasions suck all of mainland Europe into massacres and purges under Communist dictatorships. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:21:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Free Will (Re: IN> Another adventure seed for IN:WWII) At 11:23 PM -0500 2/12/98, Brandon Quina wrote: >> They weren't, I think. The Free Will behind them was, however, >> for better or worse. Yes, it's very mature, and very dark; don't >> play this if you enjoy not having nightmares and dry heaves at >> points, IMO. It's a very good way to get angelic PCs to voluntarily >> fall, and make everybody question who's on the right side... > >Read the other message that I posted. Basically, if free will is >*that* important to the angels, the war is irrelevant. > >The demons *choose* to be evil, so they can. Thats their right >via their free will. Lets go back to heaven. Ah, but it's not "free will" -- it's *HUMAN* free will. The angels are mucking around primarily to keep the demons from corrupting humanity and stealing away humans' free will. (Why, yes, it is a double standard. Just ask any demon...) If a human chooses, of his or her own free will, to do evil things and there's no demon around urging him or her onwards... The only proper thing for an angel to do is stand back with tears standing in its eyes. They don't, always, of course. Because such a moral high ground is hard for most of them. But it's what they *should* do. Fortunately for angels, there are a lot of demons mucking around and Nybbas is practically *everywhere*, so they have a lot of excuses to intervene and meddle with humanity as well. Any war that's started by humans and humans alone, angels should be leaving them alone. They can toast demons, they can strive to counteract the effects of demonic propeganda/manipulation, but aside from that? They *should* be staying out of the mess... But do they? Well, that's for angelic PCs to decide... In one of the R.A. MacAvoy "Damiano" books, Raphael is (IIRC) confronting Lucifer and Lucifer says, "You stood over the sinkhole in the snow that would have a claimed a human's life, and he walked around you -- and it, and so he lived. You have meddled with human affairs. You are no better than I." Or words to that effect. (Which culminated, in _Raphael_, with an angel becoming human for a time... And finding it, as an Elohite might say, instructive.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:12:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> WW2 At 11:07 PM -0500 2/12/98, Brandon Quina wrote: >> I think the "official" take on WWII is that humans did it to >> themselves almost entirely. Certainly celestials flocked to certain >> areas and tried to help or hinder situations, as their natures and >> agendas dictated. But Hitler was *human*. [...] > >(note: this is off topic. Its about as off topic as it can get. Its >basically me ranting about world war two.) (Then don't...) >This is one of the things I have a problem with. Admittingly, the >holocaust was probally the worst horror of the war. However, the >Japanese involved were hardly saints either. Nope. And they did it from human free will as well. There's a lot of that going around, you know. >And yet. When people are talking about WWII, its always the germans >that get the atrocitys attributed to them. It's a function of spelling. (Semi-serious...) It's easy to type Hitler, easy to type Nazi. And there are "neo-Nazis" running around loose in the news. Compare and contrast to... Sailor Moon? And look at Nybbas smile. Maybe this is one of the deals he's making with the kami? >Is that wrong? Yes. Do I blame him? I dont know, I didnt live >through it. I only know that I lost one of my great-uncles in that >war.. I never got to know him.. A zero got 'em. My mother's father was saved by her birth -- he would have been on one of those early-sunken ships at Pearl Harbor, otherwise... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:22:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Maya Fan Club (Re: Lilim and Reproduction) At 7:57 PM +0000 2/12/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >> Yikes. There are some people Lilith just should not... now I love >> >> Laurence. That's why I beat him up and put him through angst hell. >> >> But he just should never have any Lilim who call him 'Dad'. >> > >> >Although K.K. might dream about it from time to time... >> >> She'd do it just to watch his face. "Search your feelings, Laurence! >> You know it to be true! I *am* your daughter!" > >I'm imagining something more like Lolita, but make of it what you >will... Lolita? >>>Nathaniel, who just read Maya's stories. Lust + Nastiness = Shedim >>>Pit...*shudder*. >> >>Shedim Pit? What, is this "Hunt"? Or one of the others? > >The Hunt, IIRC. Very funny stuff - I liked the "Where'd the Renegade >go?" bluff... Hunt was a co-authored bit. Maya did the evil nasty faceless drooling horrors (like the Shedite), and I came up with some of the clever stuff, and she came up with other clever stuff, and she did the best descriptions, and we each have a version of "Hunt" -- one by her and one by me. (Mine's up on the INC Fiction page.) I forget which of us did the Shedim Pit. Probably her. Maya's very good. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #627 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.