From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 26 00:32:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12127 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:32:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA02857 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:20:16 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:20:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199802260620.AAA02857@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #647 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 647 In this digest: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Lots of stuff, on topic even Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) IN> Re: Jordi Writeup Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Evil Trick with Roles Re: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup IN> Re: Jordi Writeup Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:09:19 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Andrew writes >And what pray tell is internally inconsistant with the following: > >PC: "Ok, having just convinced the Servitor of the War to summon Baal, >I now prepare to attack him" > >GM: "Baal shows up in a thrum of Celestial drums, from the sound they >are war drums. You determine that he is in corporeal form from the way >the Symphony is resonating." > >PC: "I attack," , "I'm using my flaming sword so my >skill is..." > >GM: "Baal procedes to beat the ever loving crap out of >you. Sending you back to Heaven to lick your wounds and wonder why you >ever thought that attacking a Superior was a good idea." > >... Later ... > >PC: "Ok, everything is all set up. This time when Baal shows up, all >forty of us attack." > >GM: "Everything goes as before and you wake up in Heaven with >thirty-nine less friends and a Superior who is simply pissed that they >bothered to give you a vessel again after the last stupid idea you had. >You are reasigned to desk duty for 1000 years..." Absolutely nothing internally inconsistant with it, but for *my* campaign it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd start to worry about how many angels *could* take Baal and stick his tom-toms where the sun don't shine. O:) You see, I happen to think that he could get overwhelmed and trounced most horribly. But how many good guys would this take? 41? 1 million? There has to be a number somewhere where even Baal in all his magnificence will go down, and I don't think they have to be anywhere near his power level to do it. Basically, I want a more reasonable way to judge this rather than saying "It is So because I say it is So, and I am the Gamesmaster". - -- Jules - Demon of Cannon Fodder jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:16:57 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors At 03:09 26/02/98 +0000, you wrote: > I'd start to worry about how many >angels *could* take Baal and stick his tom-toms where the sun don't >shine. O:) > >You see, I happen to think that he could get overwhelmed and trounced >most horribly. But how many good guys would this take? No amount could take him down in a straight fight IMO, because that is related to his word and strengthens it. Bear in mind he can probably teleport in several legions faster than most angels can think, if he needed to. *ping* Try another way, preferably peace-related ;-) (Relating to another post (I know this is bad but I'm half-awake). I LOVED the Jordi write-up. Beautiful work!) (and on yet another, I think the 'jump' push was at least as much perception as will. A tiny nudge to the death-wish urge at just the point where someone is peering over the platform and thinking 'Wow, one small step and it would all be over.' Having said that it does also imply that Hobson has unusual finesse with his resonance, and he isn't a 9-forcer in any case -- baby Habbalah probably shouldn't try that at home ;-) Will probably finish the next section of that particular story sometime this week.. ) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:44:32 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors At 05:59 PM +0000 02/25/1998, Julian Breen wrote: > >Incidentally, I wonder how tough Legion got? If it took the combined >efforts of Heaven and Hell to stop him and almost cost the soul of >Michael, how many forces did Legion have? > Legion was a tough not to crack not only because of the number of Forces it posessed, but imagine being able to invest an unlimited amount of human vessels with your Corporeal Forces and Strength? No mortal army, especially at that period would have had a chance. And stopping him did cost the soul of Raphael, one of the original Archangels. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:51:08 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors At 08:05 PM -0800 02/25/1998, Drake wrote: >As to giving Superiors actual stats, I have been thinking about using 2 >sources from another game as a suggested guideline. Legends and Lore and >Wrath of the Immortals from Dungeon and Dragons games. If you can find it, I'd recommend getting a copy of "Primal Order" it was intended as "meta cap" for various game systems, creating and running dieties and their servants. It was created with the dual purpose of relating dieties to mortals in their game systems and developing the diety-only aspects of various activities. The sections on developing home planes might map very nicely to Cathedrals and Principalities. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:37:31 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors >Emily Dresner wrote: >> >> > For inter-Superior gaming, rather than give specific stats, why not >> > just rank the Superiors on their different Characteristics? >> >> Because then, suddenly, they'd be playing Amber! Huzzah! >> >> Which is not a really bad idea. ... > >I admit, I would be interested to see an IN-Diceless, using >Amber mechanics or an adaptation of them. Wasn't someone on >the list toying with such an idea a while back? > >Earl Then again if a GM would have problems moderating NPC Superior combat without stats, then Amber is probably the last game one should run. The "stats" that are used in Amber are nothing more than the merest appeasement to conventional RPGs, and for the really mega Powers in the Amber universe, you really have to leave the idea of stats behind. Oberon, Dworkin, Sawall, the personifications of Pattern and Logrus all fall into this category. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:52:49 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Lots of stuff, on topic even At 09:11 PM -0500 02/25/1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >>Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:09:00 -0500 >>From: Earl Wajenberg >>Subject: Re: IN> Lots of stuff, on topic even >> >>Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >> >>> Jean is the guardian who makes sure that the physical world obeys >>> the laws God laid down at the first instant of Creation. There >>> are angels of Jean responsible for such things as making sure >>> planets stay in their orbits and electrons obey Schrodinger's >>> wave equations. >> Does this mean that I can really get fined for breaking a law of physics? Perhaps Jean should look on employing Mayor Rudy. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:23:24 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) That was truly, absolutely wonderful. Worthy of canon, definitely. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:57:22 -0500 From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup I blush greatly. I didn't realize just how unproportional the fonts in this mail program are, and it looks like a bunch of lines were just a *touch* too long -- All of you have my apologies. I hope you find it decent reading anyway. - -- Hitherby, Kyriotate of Jordi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:00:37 -0800 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) Well here goes an attempt at listing Superiors.. >>FORCES - This has been the greatest point of disagreement that I have >>seen thus far; How many Forces does a Superior have? Given their >>disturbance on the Corporeal Plane, it suggests perhaps either 20-30 >>total, or roughly 20 or so Corporeal and 30 or so Celestially. Some have >>suggested that Superiors should have hundreds of Forces and others have >>said nearly unlimited. Personally, I'm not sure anymore how many Forces >>they should have. >I've been thinking a bit about this, also, and came up with the notion >that Superiors have 18 Forces among Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial; the >remainder of their Forces are tied up in their Word, and wax and wane >with the power of the Word. I may propose this as canon, if there is >ever any serious attempt to describe game mechanics for Superiors. Ok how about this.. Superior's Forces range from 14-36 (roughly double the power levels of Celestials). This is their Core Forces. The Superior would have a 4th Force type, Word Forces. This Force can range between 1-100 and is determined by how powerful a Superior's Word is. The Word Force is then multiplied by the Superior's Essence to determine how much Essence he or she has (A Superior with 36 Forces and 100 Word Forces, would have 3600 Essence..). Characteristics are determined normally with the Word Force having no Characteristics. >>DISSONANCE - Superiors suffer from the same Dissonance that their >>servents have as well as those of the individual Superior's Choir/Band. >It's not clear to me if a Superior *can* be dissonant -- they *are* >their Word, so they can't really act against their nature; they merely >redefine their Word a bit by their actions. Superiors can gain Dissonance from my understanding.. >>ATTUNEMENTS and DISTINCTIONS - Superiors have every Choir/Band and >>Servitor Attunements they give their servents, as well as possessing all >>the abilities their Distinctions grant. >I also assume Superiors have the abilities of all Choirs (or Bands). >It's already canon that Superiors can be present in multiple places at >once, like Kyrios. A Superior's Choir or Band is probably more >important in their psychology than in defining what they can do. I doubt if Superiors have the Resonance of ALL Choirs or Bands. But they may have the Resonance and Dissonance of the Choirs or Bands whose Choir Attunements are depended upon a Resonance (Example, Michael's Cherubim Attunement requires the Cherub Resonance, so thus Michael would have the Cherub Res and Diss as well). Most Superiors would thus have the Kyriotate Res and thus explains how they can be at several locations at once. >>TETHERS - In order for a Superior to have any Influence in the Corporeal >>World, they must have at least 1 Tether. From what I've figured out, >>that if a Superior loses all his or her Tethers, then he or she becomes >>very weak.. perhaps loses half of his Forces? I don't know, just an idea >>off the top of my head. >I've been thinking that Tethers are partly Essence generators/conduits >to the Superior helping feed him Essence from the power of his Word in >the corporeal world. Thus, without Tethers, the Superior's major >Essence flow is diminished severely. >Tether canon may be established sometime in the not-too-distant future, >I'll probably propose something like this. The Word Force could be depended upon Tethers. For every 1% of a Superior's Tethers that are destroyed, then the Superior loses 0.5% of his Total Word Forces (Example, Michael loses 50% of his Tethers, then his Word Force would drop by 25%, say from 100 to 75). >>CREATING ANGELS AND DEMONS - Superiors, thru their Essence Cache and >>perhaps thru a Skill of Force Binding(?), are able to take either some >>of their Forces, other Celestial's Forces, or using Essence to create >>the Forces (same as a vessel.. 75 Essence per Force for a humaniod >>being, including Angels and Demons). If the Superior uses existing >>Forces, this cost would be divided by 5 (Angels would cost 25 Essence >>per Force if using existing Forces). >I think canon may address this issue fairly soon -- what you propose >sounds plausible, though the ability may be more of an attunement or >Song than a skill. Ok, how about an Attunement called.. um.. Celestial Creation, Life Creation, or something Creation would be good. Or perhaps a song.. Corporeal version creates Corporeal Life, Ethereal, Ethereal Life, Celestial, Celestial Life. To create an Angel would require Ethereal and Celestial (To create its mind and soul) and Corporeal if granting a Vessel. Could be called Song of Life. Cause a disturbance equal to the Forces used plus the Essence spent. >>SONGS AND SKILLS - Superiors buy Songs and Skills as normal characters, >>except they may learn them up to level 12(?). >With lots of Essence to play with, there's no real need to up skill >levels -- they merely boost themselves to whatever level is needed. >It's noisy, but then, Superiors aren't supposed to be mucking about in >the corporeal realm much, anyway. >I would generally assume any Superior has any important skill at 6, >ditto for Songs. True, so lets leave them as is for now, no change from the main book. >>SUPERIOR SONGS - To make things simple, all effects of a Superior's >>Songs are 10 times the normal levels, except for damage with is 2 times >>the normal levels. (?) >With virtually unlimited Essence, Superiors could boost effects of >normal Songs to unusual levels. Also, there are almost certainly Songs >restricted to Superiors, or ones which simply require *lots* of Essence >to use. I don't think there's any real need to go beyond the existing >mechanics, except possibly to lift limits on Essence used imposed in >certain Songs. Good point there too. >- ---Walter and >>Nathaniel wrote: >> Well, a 20 force superior is pretty small; there are canon Word-bound >> that are larger than that. My preference would be ~75 for DPs and >> ~120 for AAs; that would take a small army of regular angels and >> demons to take down. >I'd agree with this for established AAs and DPs. IMO opinion (I may >be alone), when Furfer became a DP, he didn't suddenly jump up to >this level. I think that when Lucifer made him DP of Hardcore he >probably tacked on a few extra Forces, maybe so he's around 20 >Forces. Night Music specifically says that this is a dangerous time >for Furfer. I interpret this as meaning that he has to hide from >other DPs who want to kill him while forging alliances. Then he has >to attract servants to his Word, who will generate Essence for him >(through Rites) so he can grow and consolidate his power. An idea >which suddenly occurred to me is perhaps Superior-level Celestials >(who we'll say can have Essence caches like Ethereals) increase in >Forces when they collect enough Essence, say perhaps ten-times their >current Forces? Then when a Servant performs a Rite, 1 point of >Essence goes to the servant, and 1 gets channeled to the Superior, >through the enforcement of his Word. In this method, servants can >generate Essence for their Superior, who grows in power. When Furfer >can collect 200 Essence, he'll be 21 forces. Another 210 Essence 22 >Forces etc. With the day-to-day needs of spending Essence to create >new servants and other duties, it keeps Superior growth slow, plus >explains why the more powerful Superiors (Michael, Gabriel etc.) >aren't having great increases in power. They're powerful as it is, >so with the need to spend their hoarded Essence, they can't >accumulate enough to gain more Forces without effort (assuming >Michael's around 100 Forces, he'd need 1000 Essence just to become >101 Forces!) >Hmm, any opinions? >Leath. This is an interesting way for a Superior to Advance and I think it is good. So to define it within what I have so far.. A Superior has to save up 100 times their Total Forces (Not counting Word Force) in Essence, plus 100 character points in order to gain a new Force (Which explains why many Superiors don't advance that fast and why promoting your Word is so important.. Build up your Word Force, gain more Essence, gain more Forces). As for regaining Essence.. Superiors gain 1 Essence per day, plus what ever they gain from their Rites, plus 1dx10. The 1dx10 is roughly the amount of Essence the Superior gains from his or her Tether. In order for a Superior to gain more Word Forces, he or she must promote his or her Word. They could gain like 1 character point per trivial promotion of the Word, 3 for minor, 5 for average, 7 for major, and 10 for drastic change, as well as the same amount in Essence. The Essence is gained at the end of the day and the greatest promotion of the Word is the one that determines how much Essence is gained (Michael promoted his Word a trivial time, a minor time and a major time. He would gain 7 Essence at the end of the day for the Major promotion). Character points are handled the same way. In order to raise the Word Force, it will cost 100 character points, plus 10 times the Force to be gained in Essence (Thus to raise a Word Force from 49 to 50 would cost 100 character points plus 500 Essence). The reverse of this can also happen.. The Superior loses 1 point for each trivial failure at promotion of the Word, -3 for minor, -5 for average, -7 for major, and -10 for drastic. Essence is also handled the same way, losing Essence for failing to promote the Word. If the Superior loses 50 character points and 100 Essence this way (Its easier to fall down a mountain then to climb one), the Superior loses 1 Word Force. Per 10% of the Word Force that the Superior loses, he or she also loses 1 Core Force as if he or she had been in Celestial Combat (Hurts like Hell too). Well those are my thoughts so far on this.. Let me know what ya think. Amon-Nahashel "Drake", Seraph of War ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:02:48 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors > >> Realism in a world of supernatural things? An interesting notion. > > > >Don't knock it till you try it. Realism isn't about keeping the > >laws of physics; things must be internally consistant, that's all. > > It was a joke. :-) But doesn't this statement contradict your later > statement about no balance. Nope. Consistancy doesn't require balance. In fact, an internally consistant world is often changing. But what I meant is that the balance is not one caused by physical power. IMO, much of hell is unbalanced; Lilith is not as powerful as Baal, for instance. But Lilith has political power (which isn't really easy to apply a stat to, if you want realism) that keeps her in place. > >> Unless a player is controlling an arch beast, isn't the result > >> the impact of one GM-defined thing against another GM-defined thing? > > > >At some point, yes. That's the whole point: I want to know how Baal > >is going to walk when he leaves a fight with Mammon. Without simply > >rolling and shouting - roll and shout (IMO) is something that should > >be reserved for when you don't have time to work out the answer. I > >have time to work out a Baal vs. Mammon match. > > So the GM says one loses a chunk from the backside which makes walk > funny and brings tears to the eyes of any compassionate creature. > 'Without simply rolling...', I didn't suggest rolling in the first > place. :-) Well, then without just shouting. I like shouting at my players, but over different things...;-) (Roll and shout just means that I don't let my players know I'm making it up as I go along...) > Whether you have time to work it out or not, I'm suggesting there > is no point unless you intend for the GM and players to play Mortal > Kombat. I can't see the benefit of a random element in GM contrived > circumstances. One could almost say that the GM is condoning an > argument from a player about a GM decision along the lines of: > 'let's just make a roll to see if you're right, GM.' The thing is, I like my world to be unpredictable, at every level. I may set up things so that one party is likely to win, but if I set things up so that one party *will* win, the players have no chance of having sweeping effects. > >> Granted a realistic determination requires some frame of reference, > >> but why must it be quantifiable? Surely a qualitative assessment > >> would serve as well. > > > >Not if I wanted to know specifics from an inter-Superior fight. How > >hurt will Baal be before he reduces Mammon to kibble? Would it be > >enough for another Prince to risk an attack? And would that other > >Prince succeed or fail? > > I still say it's not necessary to count beans. The GM just decides > how hurt Baal will be before it reduces Mammon to kibble. I don't want to "just decide"! If you do, fine; you can ignore stats for Superiors. But don't tell me I shouldn't do it... > >What I was saying is that by saying on the list that "Superiors > >shouldn't be quantified", you discourage a potentially valuable > >resource for both yourself and me. I, personally, am in favor of > >finding some good frame of reference; if you don't like it, replace > >it with your own or discard it completely. > > I believe Superior statistics are a liability rather than a > resource. But, in the end, we all do what we want to do. I'm happy > to debate the pros and cons of Superior statistics ad infinitum > without either of us ever seeing the light. If that's a problem, > I'll stop now. :-) Well, yeah. I know I won't convince you of the need for Superior statistics, because you just don't have that need. I, however, do have that need; I want a world where PCs (if they do things right) might be able to hurt, or even (gasp!) to kill a Superior. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:02:48 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors > Absolutely nothing internally inconsistant with it, but for *my* > campaign it wouldn't be acceptable. I'd start to worry about how > many angels *could* take Baal and stick his tom-toms where the sun > don't shine. O:) > > You see, I happen to think that he could get overwhelmed and > trounced most horribly. But how many good guys would this take? 41? > 1 million? There has to be a number somewhere where even Baal in all > his magnificence will go down, and I don't think they have to be > anywhere near his power level to do it. Exactly. > Basically, I want a more reasonable way to judge this rather than > saying > "It is So because I say it is So, and I am the Gamesmaster". Thank you. That was better put than I could have done, and says exactly what I wanted it to say. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:09:16 -0800 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors A side note as far as Characteristics go.. Since Superior Characteristics probly go well above 12, how bout when they do have to go up against non-superiors, that the characteristics for all parties involved are halved, round up for Superiors, round down for non-superiors? Would give a Superior with a Str of 18 a 9 and a non-superior with a Str of 11 a 5.. wouldnt affect HP or anything. Anyway, just a thought off the top of my head :) Amon-Nahashel "Drake", Loyal Servent of War ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:09:51 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors > >You see, I happen to think that he could get overwhelmed and trounced > >most horribly. But how many good guys would this take? > > No amount could take him down in a straight fight IMO, because that > is related to his word and strengthens it. I doubt that; I tend to run on a law of conservation with that. Yes, he will get strength from the fight, which makes him nasty. But he looses more than he gains... > Bear in mind he can probably teleport in several legions faster than > most angels can think, if he needed to. There is that; his power isn't just in his Forces, but in his Servators, too. He might be dragged down by a sufficient amount of PC level forces, but only if the GM didn't use the resources right. > (Relating to another post (I know this is bad but I'm half-awake). I > LOVED the Jordi write-up. Beautiful work!) Very nice. I disagreed with what was implied in Laurence's statement (that Jordi helped with the Purification Crusade) but only for my game; it would work fine in most In Nomine games. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:15:20 -0800 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> Evil Trick with Roles >Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:26:00 PST >From: "David Streeter" >Subject: IN> Evil Trick with Roles >My housemate was making his Calabite of Theft character up last night, >and chose a role as "A Common Thief". >This got me thinking... if I was a Calabite of Death, I'd get a level 6 >Status/2 role as "A Serial Killer". That way I could kill humans without >causing disturbance! >The basic idea is to get a role as a criminal. Nifty, huh? >SurturZ >Habbalite of Factions Actually that is a good idea. Already using something similar to it :) My character, which is a Seraph of War, and have a Role/6 as a vigilanti demon hunter (can break things, shoot ppl, etc and all be in a role of a vigilanti demon hunter) and status/1.. cost only 3 points too.. Amon-Nahashel "Drake", Seraph of War and crazed Vigilanti Demon Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:29:00 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup > I blush greatly. I didn't realize just how unproportional > the fonts in this mail program are, and it looks like a > bunch of lines were just a *touch* too long -- No problem here...everything wrapped fine. > All of you have my apologies. I hope you find it > decent reading anyway. Decent reading nothing; I'd love to see that in canon. Beth, is there a Shedim's chance in Heaven that this could make it to a book? If it doesn't have a chance, I'll (with your permission) convert it to HTML and have Beth put it on the INC. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:32:36 -0500 From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup It's too long to post again in a better format, so you can find an HTML version at http://www.dev-com.com/~marith/Keely/gaming/jordi.html Once again, my apologies. - -- Hitherby, Kyriotate of Jordi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 05:53:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Drake wrote: > many people do think that Superiors (Archangels, Demon Princes, and > perhaps even some of the more powerful Ethereal Spirits/Gods) should > have some sort of "stat" levels. The question is, how. Here's a few ideas off the top of my head for a way to compare Superior rankings from a dramatic point of view. The system is diceless, but is not entirely predictable, since Being Clever can sway it. It is based on a style often used here in Oxford where the GM decides in advance 'if the players are _this_ clever, they win. If they are _this_ stupid, they lose. In between and I wing it.' I would appreciate feedback from any and all. Firstly, divide all celestials into two categories: 1) Large. People who would have more than 18 forces if the game mechanics had been designed to run that high. This starts at Michael, and runs down through the Superiors and into the upper levels of the Word-bound. Such beings have all kinds of unspecified powers: the ability to create attunements and rites included. They may also have large to unlimited reserves of Essence, but will rarely be rolling dice, because they have auto-success at anything important. 1) Small. 1-18 Forces. The IN rules cover these guys. The Rules of Engagement: 1) Small vs. Small is covered by the IN rules (duh). 2) If a Small celestial and a Large celestial oppose their powers in any way, the Large celestial wins, unless all the following hold: i) The Small celestial is strong for a Small. ii) The Large celestial is weak for a Large (see below). iii) The Small is pretty much maxed out in the area of conflict (so if he wants to use a Song, he'd better have it at 6, with at least 4 Forces, and spend several points of essence, and roll well). iv) The conflict has nothing to do with the Large's Word. v) The GM cannot think of any decent way the Large can pull out his specialty and use it on the Small. 3) Within the Large class, the GM must decide how good each celestial is in any method of conflict likely to occur. The most important of these is the simple 'trying to hurt the other one as much as possible'. Other conflict types will depend on the plot reasons that the two have come together. The only reasons for Superiors meeting unexpectedly that I can think of is player invocations, in which case the options are basically fight or flight. It takes a LOT to stop a Large simply running: only the most combat-oriented Superiors can do it, and then only by risking leaving themselves open to attack. This is why Superiors don't fight each other: as soon as one started losing they would quit and run. So, what is needed is a combat ranking. Again, I suggest a subdivision of categories: the character in the higher category usually wins. Fights within a category will be close, and the GM may like to rank in strict order within each. He may also like to roll some dice, weighting the probabilities towards the higher ranked combatant. Here is a possible partial list.. Your Mileage _Will_ Vary. 1) The Best: Michael, Baal, Lucifer, Uriel, Laurence. 2) The Fighters: David, Gabriel, Belial, Saminga, Janus, Jordi? 3) Tough: Dominic, Eli?, Valefor? Haagenti? (Mmmm. Sword) 4) Powerful, or specialised Butt-kicker: Demon of Killing AAs, Large Seraph Council Guy, Jean, Asmodeus, Marc?, Malphas?, Nybbas?, Novalis? 5) Medium hard: Loads of Word-bounds. Michael and Baal have teams of these. GMs might like to put the combat-wuss Major Superiors here. 6) Not so hard: Loads more word-bounds. Combat-wuss Minor Superiors. 7) Non-combatant: The Angel of Peace. This level starts to shade back into Small in terms of combat ability, so might be partially statted, and make dice-targets for PCs. If this is the case, combat-oriented Smalls of 17+ Forces will also be here. This is also the maximum practical level for PCs under this system. If a character leads by one category, they will take serious damage if they wish to destroy their opponent, or a few scratches to defend. Two categories means that they can whip their opponent comprehensively. Three or more, and they could hack them to pieces without taking a single hit. Note that even Novalis can straight-arm a PC through a wall if she feels like it. Modifying Factors 1) Ideas. For example, a player of mine began his prelude as an 18-Force Senschal. He was attacked by Baal, who stripped him of half his forces in one hit (Large always wins). He then decided to channel his Tether away from Heaven and into Baal. BLAT. GM ruling was that this discommoded Baal briefly. PC then invoked Eli. GM ruled that Eli was capable of waving a sword at Baal in a sufficiently menacing fashion that Baal chose the safe route and left. 2) McGuffins. Any _item_ that will increase a character's abilities by as much as a category should only be placed by the GM with a specific purpose, and user, in mind. He should have decided what its effects are in terms of the already-existing rankings of everyone likely to see it. For example, 'The Sword of Primal Smiting will raise its bearer's Largeness sub-group by one, placing them in the middle of the category to which they are raised. If borne by a combat-oriented Small, it will place them in the middle of category 6. For others it is Power 15, Acc +7. Laurence will want it back when he finds out it is missing.' 3) Numbers. This is the hardest part. GM discretion as to exact values, but: A 'team' of anything will beat a 'single' of equal power. They will be roughly equivalent to something one step bigger. So a team of Force 18 Combat Malakim could soul-kill Fleurity if they could pin him down. It would take a team of Fighters to challenge Michael. That means at least three DPs, co-operating, and it assumes that Michael can't call for help from Laurence, David, Gabriel... If the team in question is of Smalls, then they should only end up in a straight fight with something that has been at least partially statted, unless the GM wants them to lose, fast. An 'army' of something is 'n' levels better, where 'n' is a number between 2 and 4, decided by the GM. Note that a Fighter Superior could still take on an army of Smalls, and not expect to break a sweat. A 'horde' of something is what happens at Armageddon. Anyone asking for game mechanics to deal with the Final Battle is not my friend. - ------------------- So there y'go. Please comment. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:09:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Steve Jessop wrote: > So there y'go. Please comment. Good stuff. I like it. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:09:10 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) > >I've been thinking a bit about this, also, and came up with the notion > >that Superiors have 18 Forces among Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial; the > >remainder of their Forces are tied up in their Word, and wax and wane > >with the power of the Word. I may propose this as canon, if there is > >ever any serious attempt to describe game mechanics for Superiors. > > Ok how about this.. Superior's Forces range from 14-36 (roughly > double the power levels of Celestials). This is their Core Forces. > The Superior would have a 4th Force type, Word Forces. This Force > can range between 1-100 and is determined by how powerful a > Superior's Word is. Hmmm - the Force level seems a little low. If you use these rules for Word-bound, they fit almost perfectly. I really like the idea of Word Forces. > The Word Force is then multiplied by the Superior's Essence to > determine how much Essence he or she has (A Superior with 36 Forces > and 100 Word Forces, would have 3600 Essence..). This, on the other hand, is a bit excessive for me. Mostly because I dislike having exponential results come from linear causes, which is what this would cause. It screws with game balance too much. OTOH, having Word Forces act as regular Forces for storing Essence would be fine with me. > Characteristics are determined normally with the Word Force having > no Characteristics. Here's an idea, which would explain why Attunements are rationed: Word Forces have two Characteristics: Sense and Resonance. Sense allows the Word-Bound to percieve where their Word is occuring; make a role similar to a disturbance roll for any major occurance related to their Word. Resonance gives the Word-Bound power along the lines of his Word; he may make up Attunements related to his Word, negotiating with the GM for the final cost. However, each Attunement costs him Resonance points equal to 2/5 what the normal CP cost would be. He can also bestow his Resonance on someone else; it costs the same amount, and once he has given it, it is gone. Hmm - that's not very clean. I must think on this some more... > >It's not clear to me if a Superior *can* be dissonant -- they *are* > >their Word, so they can't really act against their nature; they merely > >redefine their Word a bit by their actions. > > Superiors can gain Dissonance from my understanding.. Suits. Maybe the Dissonance conditions tie into how much Resonance the Word-Bound has. > >I also assume Superiors have the abilities of all Choirs (or Bands). > >It's already canon that Superiors can be present in multiple places at > >once, like Kyrios. A Superior's Choir or Band is probably more > >important in their psychology than in defining what they can do. > > I doubt if Superiors have the Resonance of ALL Choirs or Bands. But > they may have the Resonance and Dissonance of the Choirs or Bands > whose Choir Attunements are depended upon a Resonance (Example, > Michael's Cherubim Attunement requires the Cherub Resonance, so thus > Michael would have the Cherub Res and Diss as well). Most Superiors > would thus have the Kyriotate Res and thus explains how they can be > at several locations at once. I don't know that being able to grant an attunement requires the ability to use it; look at Sorcery, for example. Yes, some of the Superiors might have multiple Choir resonances, but I wouldn't say all of them do. > >I've been thinking that Tethers are partly Essence generators/conduits > >to the Superior helping feed him Essence from the power of his Word in > >the corporeal world. Thus, without Tethers, the Superior's major > >Essence flow is diminished severely. > > >Tether canon may be established sometime in the not-too-distant future, > >I'll probably propose something like this. > > The Word Force could be depended upon Tethers. For every 1% of a > Superior's Tethers that are destroyed, then the Superior loses 0.5% > of his Total Word Forces (Example, Michael loses 50% of his Tethers, > then his Word Force would drop by 25%, say from 100 to 75). I'd say it ties a little too much importance to Tethers; I won't be using that in my game. Tethers are useful, and provide steady support for a Word, but (in my game) won't be much beyond that. They will require some permanent Resonance, however, making them investments, and not hastily made ones, eigther. > >I think canon may address this issue fairly soon -- what you propose > >sounds plausible, though the ability may be more of an attunement or > >Song than a skill. > > Ok, how about an Attunement called.. um.. Celestial Creation, Life > Creation, or something Creation would be good. Or perhaps a song.. > Corporeal version creates Corporeal Life, Ethereal, Ethereal Life, > Celestial, Celestial Life. To create an Angel would require Ethereal > and Celestial (To create its mind and soul) and Corporeal if > granting a Vessel. Could be called Song of Life. Cause a disturbance > equal to the Forces used plus the Essence spent. I'd say this would be a rather powerful song. I'd personally rule that it required Essence equal to the square of the Forces created, and would be one of those Multi-songs (like Thunder and Possession). Vessel creation would be another Song. > This is an interesting way for a Superior to Advance and I think it > is good. So to define it within what I have so far.. A Superior has > to save up 100 times their Total Forces (Not counting Word Force) in > Essence, plus 100 character points in order to gain a new Force > (Which explains why many Superiors don't advance that fast and why > promoting your Word is so important.. Build up your Word Force, gain > more Essence, gain more Forces). That's a *lot* of character points to require, even if you said that it only applied for Forces above the 6 per category max. Ordinary Forces only cost 10 points, and no essence... Personally, I see Forces as something that cannot be coerced into being by expending large amounts of essence, either. Maybe Corporeal Forces could be brought out this way, but Ethereal Forces are iffy (I'd probably rule that they don't fully integrate, causing some interesting clitches), and Celestial Forces are right out. To gain Ethereal or Celestial Forces, you have to use them and improve yourself - ie spend character points. > As for regaining Essence.. Superiors gain 1 Essence per day, plus > what ever they gain from their Rites, plus 1dx10. The 1dx10 is > roughly the amount of Essence the Superior gains from his or her > Tether. That doesn't take the amount of Tethers into account... Anyway, interesting stuff. I'm going to need to think about this some more, especially how Word Forces work... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #647 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.