From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 26 20:14:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24753 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:14:36 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA23730 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:40:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:40:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199802270140.TAA23730@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #649 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 649 In this digest: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Superior Statistics (literally....?) Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> [Pagan Victory] PV part 2 Re: IN> [Pagan Victory] PV part 2 IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals IN> Re: Jordi Re: IN> Re: Jordi Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Damaging vessels pointblank Re: IN> A Minor Kyriotate Confusion Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Mammon (was Varying Superior Disturbance Levels) Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> Re: Jordi Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> A Minor Kyriotate Confusion Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) IN> Eli's Kyrio's IN> Re: IN- Evil Trick with Roles Re: IN> Evil Trick with Roles Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup Re: IN> Question about Grey Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) Re: IN> Role Q Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:01:01 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors >> Oh, and Baal could send a conciliatory but patronising letter to the >> Superior in Heaven about the loss of angel power and how to recruit better. > >"The Department of The War regrets to inform you that your Servitors >are dead because they were stupid....." > >:-) Obviously we see Baal in different lights. You perhaps more as Arnie, myself perhaps more as Pee Wee Herman. };) - -- Jules - Pee Wee Demon jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:59:15 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Superior Statistics (literally....?) Paul writes >Finally having read some quantity of past digests I finally feel >semi-qualified to commment. > >(That and my GM originally raised this, Jules: can my malakim *please* lose >some of those 3 levels of discord soon.....) > Actually, my friend, it was not *I* who instigated this whole sordid superior stats thing. I blame Drake }:> Of *course* you can lose that discord, my precious... - -- Jules - Impudite of Passing the Buck jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:08:29 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors > >> Oh, and Baal could send a conciliatory but patronising letter to the > >> Superior in Heaven about the loss of angel power and how to recruit better. > > > >"The Department of The War regrets to inform you that your Servitors > >are dead because they were stupid....." > > > >:-) > > Obviously we see Baal in different lights. You perhaps more as Arnie, > myself perhaps more as Pee Wee Herman. Nah, just stole a line from "Top Gun" and applied it. I tend to see Baal as Psi-Crow from Earthworm Jim. :-) (Lucifer, of course, is Evil the Cat.) Oh wait, that doesn't match. If Lucifer is Evil the Cat, then Baal is that cybernetic Henchrat, and Asmodeus is Psi-Crow. Vapula is Professor Monkey-For-A-Head. ["Soon, very soon I shall control the entire Symphony!" "Heheheh! What you do then, Boss?" "Um... Sort of run things and such?"] - -- Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:58:00 -0600 From: John L Veazey Subject: Re: IN> [Pagan Victory] PV part 2 Is there going to be any more Pagan Victory Literature!? Just Curious Vz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:26:35 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> [Pagan Victory] PV part 2 John L Veazey wrote: > > Is there going to be any more Pagan Victory Literature!? > > Just Curious > Vz Yeah, what he said. Been waiting, oh so patiently. Hate to say this, but--did _something_ happen? [hopin' not!] I'm still wondering what the Kami and the Spirit Nation [NA Indian Ethereals] had up their collective sleeves for The Final Battle.... tom timberlake, role [sometimes] of James, Malak of Stone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:32:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Perhaps this was already addressed in the Marches book, but I don't have it, and I was wondering: Besides gods and myth-creatures, the human imagination has dallied with many other beings, especially of late. Would the Marches contain any of the following? -- An Ethereal Sherlock Holmes. Or Alice (based on a real little girl). Or Dorothy Gale of Oz. (Or all of Oz, for that matter.) Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Woody Woodpecker, et al. (IN/Toon crossover, anyone?) Ethereal editions of folk often rumored to be still alive, e.g. Elvis, Hitler, JFK. Or did their souls get sucked into the Marches by the collective unconscious, for an Ethereal resurrection? Ditto ethereal editions of similar figures from further back, e.g. Arthur, Charlemagne, Barbarosa (all rumored to come back) What about souls or copies of Davy Crocket, Diogenes, Winston Churchill and such folk, who are known to be dead but have lots of anecdotes hung on them and haunt our culture as icons? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:04:59 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals At 15:32 26/02/98 -0500, you wrote: >Perhaps this was already addressed in the Marches book, but I don't >have it, and I was wondering: > >Besides gods and myth-creatures, the human imagination has dallied >with many other beings, especially of late. Would the Marches >contain any of the following? -- > I don't really know the answer to these either, except that I did wonder the same thing and didn't really conclude much. I figure (after confab with Em, who is wise) that its more likely that small but existing ethereal entities 'adopted' the personas and the worshippers/ followers that went with them... But the Alice stuff just has to be out there. It just has to, surely ;-) jo ps. I stuck part 2 of the Ante stories up at http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN.html -- its a bit rambly but kinda fun (I thought). - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:07:20 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Re: Jordi Hm! I may clarify this in the history and change the HTML file. However, re: comments: 1. The APG does say that Jordi wanted to kill humanity and was told not to. I didn't mention this in the history, and should have -- but it would come just before the ' ... It was eventually made clear to him that [humanity has a purpose.]' 2. Lots of people don't like the idea that Jordi helped Uriel decide which creatures were natural beasts and which were ethereal 'monsters.' This probably means it's a bad idea :) Whether this is reasonable ultimately depends on whether unicorns et al *were* natural, beautiful, corporeal parts of the Symphony. I suspect that they *weren't*, because otherwise Uriel would have been killing species more or less at random. Unless y'all mean that Jordi wouldn't have associated with Uriel at all? - -- Hitherby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:15:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi R. Sean Borgstrom (Hitherby) wrote: > Unless y'all mean that Jordi wouldn't have associated with Uriel at > all? Well, if you want to be compatible with canon, Jordi was one of the Archangels who protested to the Seraphim Council about Uriel's purification campaign. (As did Blandine and, I think, Novalis.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:25:28 -0600 (CST) From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals I admit the idea of Bugs Bunny showing up in the Far Marches in a consortium of other TroubleMaker archetypes does sound fascinating. And after all, didn't they promise us In Anime April 1 of 98 ? Actually, a recent anime may prove to be just that. A series of books put out by Viz as well as an eventual anime version of the story known as X is being released. A lot of light/dark metaphysics, even more so than is normal in adult occult anime. It _isn't_ ecchi/hentai (tentacle and other forms of sex) anime; in fact, it's being written by the Clamp consortium, which normally makes anime/manga for girls (including the sickeningly sweet but amusing Magical Knights Rayearth.) Well worth getting your hands on it - the graphic novels can be picked up at most good comic stores. On a more serious note, I assume that the Marches are still being filled wit new gods. While American culture disdains religion in general, it seems as if never have more people worshipped concepts and ideas...which can eventually create the Gods once again. Perhaps Uriel is merely being held back for another slaughter... - -Drew Drew Johnson - http://www.cla.umn.edu/drew U of Minn - CLANet - Econ Office phone: x5-4885 Insert inspirational phrase here ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:43:39 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals > On a more serious note, I assume that the Marches are still being > filled wit new gods. While American culture disdains religion in general, > it seems as if never have more people worshipped concepts and > ideas...which can eventually create the Gods once again. Perhaps Uriel is > merely being held back for another slaughter... > I gots five words for ya: The First Church of Elvis. Who said you can't have modern day Ethereal God? And with Elvis popping up all the time, all these Elvis sightings... and people have these porcelin busts to worship him, and listen to his Testament and give him praise. They even have these mass worshippings when a group of them dressed as Elvis jump out of airplanes en masse. Just think about it. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:46:23 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Yes. There's no acceptable justification for saying no. Given: The Marches are where human dreams (and dreamers) exist. Some people dream about fictional personas. It's not a large jump then to assume that anything within a dream must exist in the Marches. If I dream about Alice, then she exists within the Marches...within my dreamscape. The next obvious question to me would be "Do they exist within only one dreamscape, or can they travel *between* dreams as Celestial and Ethereal beings can?" That's probably best a choice left to each GM. I for one like the Marches to be a bit haunting, not cluttered with extras from every story ever told. Here's how I would handle it: If a being exists within only one person's mind, it's locked into that dreamscape. If the concept of the individual spreads, he then gains the ability to hop directly to the other dreamscape. If the concept spreads across a community, then the area of the Marches inhabited by that community's dreams become free for that being to cross. Beings of global breadth (eg. ancient gods, the boogie man, Mickey Mouse, etc.) would pretty much have free reign amongst the Ethereal realm. How do I account for the forgotten beings in the far marches? How's this... As human dreamers no longer dream (dying being the most obvious reason), the dreamscape begins to drift further and further from the corpoeal realm. As it does so, the structure of the dream collapses. The stronger elements are now free among the far Marches, the weaker ones dissipate into nothingness. ...that's one option. - ---Jo Hart wrote: > > At 15:32 26/02/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Perhaps this was already addressed in the Marches book, but I don't > >have it, and I was wondering: > > > >Besides gods and myth-creatures, the human imagination has dallied > >with many other beings, especially of late. Would the Marches > >contain any of the following? -- == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:55:36 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals > > On a more serious note, I assume that the Marches are still being > > filled wit new gods. While American culture disdains religion in general, > > it seems as if never have more people worshipped concepts and > > ideas...which can eventually create the Gods once again. Perhaps Uriel is > > merely being held back for another slaughter... > > > > I gots five words for ya: > > The First Church of Elvis. > > Who said you can't have modern day Ethereal God? And with Elvis popping > up all the time, all these Elvis sightings... and people have these > porcelin busts to worship him, and listen to his Testament and give him > praise. They even have these mass worshippings when a group of them > dressed as Elvis jump out of airplanes en masse. > > Just think about it. :) Em, you're scaring me. - -- Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:37:51 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors >So which Demon Prince is Brand? }:::> Malphas of course. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:40:30 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors >>So which Demon Prince is Brand? }:::> > >Dominic. After all, Brand was supposedly part of Amber, right, and then >turned on them... > -Loki No, by that Logic Brand would be Eli and Random is already Eli. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Damaging vessels pointblank At 7:20 PM -0500 2/25/98, Highway Star wrote: >Just out of curiousity (and yes, you can read this, Dan)... > >What happens if someone shoots a vessel pointblank with a >shotgun, or cuts its throat, etc? Is it automatically *dead*, >like a human would be, or is there just damage and it keeps >functioning? A certain amount of GM call. For instance, cutting the throat of a helpless vessel with only some 10-20 hits might make it pretty dead pretty quick. Hacking the head off will definitely discommode even someone with 144 hits. But the celestial might be functioning for longer (dying, perhaps even beyond the Song of Healing), which means it could get off a few final Songs... (Or attacks, or something.) >In my first session of the campaign, the Malakite wanted to >take an unconscious Calabite and kill it. I let him do it >"off-screen" much as if he'd wanted to take the cute girl at >his bar back to his joint. (Let's not get gratuitous or >anything, right?) Perfectly reasonable way to handle it. I, myself, would probably let the story dictate the result, somewhat. Someone with a lot of hits will be able to hang on longer unless you've managed to porridge the brains, say... So don't give the "dead" celestial those few rounds necessary to summon a Superior, or you could see a nasty little legacy... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:53:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Minor Kyriotate Confusion At 7:08 PM -0500 2/25/98, Michael Stanley wrote: >On page 55 of the "Angelic Players Guide" the following can be read: > > "Manifestations on the ethereal plane require 3 free Forces per > ethereal form. The angel may not enter the Marches by going to > sleep in one of its hosts, nor need any of its hosts sleep. > Instead, the Kyriotate must make a Will roll to place the invested > Forces in a dreamlike state." > >Now I know that Kyriotate servitors of Blandine can have multiple >manifestations in the Marches equal to their number of Ethereal Forces; but >does this passage from the AGP mean that *all* Kyriotates can have multiple >maifestations providing they have 3 Forces per appearance, or does this just >mean that each time they enter the Marches (single "form") that they must >have 3 free Forces. Every time they enter the Marches -- only Blandine's Kyrios can go multiple within. (3 is just the minimum amount of a Kyrio to to just about anything, except when possessing ittybitty hosts.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:59:38 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors >>> Oh, and Baal could send a conciliatory but patronising letter to the >>> Superior in Heaven about the loss of angel power and how to recruit better. >> >>"The Department of The War regrets to inform you that your Servitors >>are dead because they were stupid....." :-) > >Obviously we see Baal in different lights. You perhaps more as Arnie, >myself perhaps more as Pee Wee Herman. };) > >Jules - Pee Wee Demon Arnie can write?! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:04:40 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals >---Jo Hart wrote: And there, my pretties, is the bloom in the cracks of our brains that the fairies harvest. Perhaps Uriel was recalled too soon... Alice, Alice, who the f*** is Alice? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:44:36 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Mammon (was Varying Superior Disturbance Levels) Earl writes >Ah, but read "The Screwtape Letters" to find Screwtape's pointers >on gluttony. There's more than just "gluttony of excess." There's >also "gluttony of delicacy," found among gourmets and gourmet-wannabes, >who fuss endlessly about getting stuff just right. And, for the >poor, there can be "gluttony of privation," where the scramble for >food lures the hungry into acts of fraud or violence. As long as >a desire for food (and drink, and other consumables I suppose) are the >occasion for sin, you have gluttony. You're right, I really will have to read them. Hmmm, might disagree with Mr Lewis on his definitions of Gluttony however. I can only see it really as connected with excess in some way, and the "gluttony of privation" that you describe does not seem borne of excess but necessity. Is stealing a loaf of bread to feed yourself really some form of Gluttony? I just can't swallow it . The desire for consumables I think, would have to be above that necessary for basic sustenance or it isn't gluttony, it's survival. Thanks for the suggestion BTW. :) - -- Jules - Demon of Shortchanging Shopkeepers jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:20:16 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals Earl Wajenberg wrote: [clipped a large list of possible modern day Ethereals'] [Query might all these exist in IN?] Of course they might and do, the real question is are they Ethereal spirits free from the Dreamscapes, or are they simple Dream Constructs. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, R. Sean Borgstrom wrote: > 2. Lots of people don't like the idea that Jordi helped Uriel decide which > creatures were natural beasts and which were ethereal 'monsters.' This > probably means it's a bad idea :) Whether this is reasonable ultimately > depends on whether unicorns et al *were* natural, beautiful, corporeal > parts of the Symphony. I suspect that they *weren't*, because otherwise > Uriel would have been killing species more or less at random. Personally, until canon contradicted me (either in The Marches or in the APG), I thought along the same lines as you on this. As I see it, Jordi is responsible for those notes in the Corporeal Symphony that correspond to animals. Mythical beasts, no matter how animal-like they are, are part of the Ethereal aspect of the Symphony. I therefore assumed that Jordi had no interest in the Purification Crusade at all. If anyone (other than Blandine) would have been offended by the destruction of mythical/legendary beasts during the Crusade, I would have thought it would be Eli. After all, they were created by human imagination, which put them under his Word. Not Jordi's. Eli (IMHO) should have been the one to rail against Uriel for the destruction of the unicorns, not Jordi. > Unless y'all mean that Jordi wouldn't have associated with Uriel at all? I don't think they would have had any real reason to do so. Not because they don't get along (although, in canon, it seems unlikely that they did), but because they have nothing in common. Rich Gant Angel of Absent-Mindedness ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:42:04 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > The First Church of Elvis. > > Who said you can't have modern day Ethereal God? And with Elvis popping > up all the time, all these Elvis sightings... and people have these > porcelin busts to worship him, and listen to his Testament and give him > praise. They even have these mass worshippings when a group of them > dressed as Elvis jump out of airplanes en masse. > > Just think about it. :) SCENE: THE BORDER MARCHES "What is it now, Lehabim?" "Friend Tahariel, we have repelled the same Ethereal for the third time in as many days." "Then destroy him next time. The Ethereals must not gain access to the Vale again." "We have destroyed him, Friend Tahariel. Three times." "Three times? Describe the encounters." "Yes, Friend Tahariel. Each encounter has followed the same pattern. The same Ethereal approaches, a human-appearing spirit dressed in shimmering white. Each time we challenge the Ethereal, and demand to know his business. Each time it informs us that it is 'a hunka-hunka burnin love'. Each time we remind the spirit that it is the will of Heaven that Ethereals are denied access to the Vale, and that it must return to the Far Marches or be destroyed." "And then, Lehabim?" "The Ethereal then states 'Don't be cruel,' and attempts to pass by the Guardians. At this point we once again remind the Ethereal that it must return to the Far Marches, or be destroyed." "I would be correct in assuming that the Ethereal does not obey?" "Yes, Friend Tahariel. When we move to deny the Ethereal passage, it says 'Don't you step on my blue suede shoes' and initiates combat. Upon destruction of the Ethereal, a voice is heard announcing 'Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building'." "'Elvis has left the building'?" "That is what it says. Another voice is then heard, saying 'Elvis isn't dead'." "If the Ethereal returns tomorrow, summon me. I shall deal with this 'Elvis' personally." Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:56:11 -0500 From: "Michael Stanley" Subject: Re: IN> A Minor Kyriotate Confusion In the beginning, Elizabeth McCoy said in regards to my Kyriotate query: >Every time they enter the Marches -- only Blandine's Kyrios can >go multiple within. (3 is just the minimum amount of a Kyrio to >to just about anything, except when possessing ittybitty hosts.) Such is what I thought, thanks for the clarification. L8R, - -Mike- - ----------------------------------------------- Michael Stanley "Self Proclaimed Demon Prince of Tortured GMs" Email: stanman@netset.com WWW: http://www.netset.com/~stanman/ - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:26:56 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors (long) Nathaniel writes >Personally, I see Forces as something that cannot be coerced into >being by expending large amounts of essence, either. Maybe Corporeal >Forces could be brought out this way, but Ethereal Forces are iffy >(I'd probably rule that they don't fully integrate, causing some >interesting clitches), and Celestial Forces are right out. To gain >Ethereal or Celestial Forces, you have to use them and improve >yourself - ie spend character points. > Hmmm. You've started me off thinking about essence being used to create celestial life. If you *could* use essence stores to create forces, and not just corporeal ones it sure would explain alot about how new angels and demons come about. Quoting from the APG (Pg 84) "As a rule, angels are made, not born. Archangels create servants by an act of pure will, binding together the appropriate configuration of forces and imbuing the new being with all the knowledge necessary for its job." So where do these forces come from? Well, you could say that they are a little piece of that archangel wrenched out and nurtured into a new form. Fine. Personally, I'm tempted by the idea that the AAs might use some of their Word gained essence stores for this purpose. I don't see the archangels improving their own forces with this essence, just using it 'constructively' (i.e. to create little angels). (Maybe superiors *could* use essence to sprout new forces...If only they new how..? After all, essence _is_ the energy of the universe. If you could tap into a full understanding of God's energy supply, who knows what you might mutate into?) The Princes, of course, have other methods at their disposal as well; essence stripping, force stripping, etc. But I don't want to go spinning off on a tangent. I like where you and Drake are going with this Superior stuff. Especially the Word Forces. Keep fiddling. :) - -- Jules - Demon of Burning down Rome jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:46:12 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Eli's Kyrio's Simple question really. One of my players thinks that you get a free Celestial Song of Form as one of Eli's Kyrios, as well as being able to use it essence free. I think he's wrong and you still need to buy the song in the first place. But, fair being that I am, I thought that I would give him the benefit of the doubt and ask here. If he is correct, then what level do you get it at? Thanks, as usual :) - -- Jules jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:14:58 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Evil Trick with Roles >My character, which is a Seraph of War, and have a Role/6 as a vigilanti >demon hunter (can break things, shoot ppl, etc and all be in a role of a >vigilanti demon hunter) and status/1.. cost only 3 points too.. Hmm... shouldn't it cost 4 points? I think you round up. (that's why I said role/6 status/2 - costs the same) David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:21:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Evil Trick with Roles At 9:51 PM -0400 2/25/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, David Streeter wrote: > >> This got me thinking... if I was a Calabite of Death, I'd get a level 6 >> Status/2 role as "A Serial Killer". That way I could kill humans without >> causing disturbance! > >How does that sort of thing work in canon, anyway? I have seen the >statements that having a Role lets you perform your Role's duties without >causing a disturbance in the Symphony, but how does it work? Is there a >mechanic I've missed? p. IN44: "...the GM may roll against the level of the character's Role plus his Corporeal Forces, if a case could be made for the action occuring 'in the line of duty.' If the roll is successful, then the celestial has successfully masked his meddling from the attention of other divine or infernal forces." Alternates, if you have too many Serial Killer Roles, would be for actions "in the line of duty" have their disturbance levels divided by the level of the Role (or have the level of the Role subtracted, or somesuch). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:24:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors At 3:29 AM +0000 2/26/98, Julian Breen wrote: > Walter writes > >>>But for the time being, H&H mentions Etecius - Seneschal of the Supreme >>>Court building in Washington as having 21 forces. >> >>Those should have been errata'ed by now -- official canon is that no one >>except Superiors has more than 18 Forces. >> >O.K. But my argument concerning Martenas still stands. If he's got 18 >forces, many attunements, and nobody wants to argue with him, then >18 forces must be pretty darn good. >If you follow the suggestion that AA's must have forces in the 1000s >then what threat is he? To J. Random PC, he's a big threat. To AAs? Yeah, yeah, whatever... (It's not just 18 Forces -- it's what happens when someone with Will 12 also has Fighting/6, or Sword/6 and a nice little relic or three. Owch!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:49:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors At 1:34 AM -0500 2/26/98, Michael Stanley wrote: >> Drake said: > >> DISSONANCE - Superiors suffer from the same Dissonance that their >> servents have as well as those of the individual Superior's Choir/Band. > >What about the statement in "The Angelic Player's Guide" that says that >Blandine prefers to appear in her Corporeal form? This causes dissonance >for her servants, but she can do so (it's not been listed in the errata or >explained in the FAQ at least:-)). I think the decision was "Superiors Break The Rules Sometimes." The concept of dissonance and Superiors is also one that's rather gray at the moment. It's certain that they don't experience it in the same way that normal celestials do, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:45:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi Writeup At 12:29 AM +0000 2/26/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: [Hitherby wrote] >> All of you have my apologies. I hope you find it >> decent reading anyway. > >Decent reading nothing; I'd love to see that in canon. Beth, is >there a Shedim's chance in Heaven that this could make it to a book? I haven't read it myself yet (I read short things first). If it came to me as an official submission (with all the appropriate "I promise not to sue if it turns out that I've gotten really close to someone else's contracted work" disclaimers), I would look at it, check it against what I know of canon, and forward it up to the Council. This applies to just about everything. Mind you, if I get deluged with stuff, I'll do a certain amount of "Yes, nice, how about a consolation prize of the INC?" O:> (Read it now. Interesting. Has some good stuff. Of course, I'd have nits (I *always* have nits), and I'd have to check some of the other stuff that's planned for Jordi. ) [As a general thing: if you want to submit something to me, make sure it's #1: readable by me (I actually prefer ascii, and can read limited HTML by sight); #2: has proper spelling (at least better than mine), punctuation, grammer, etc.; #3: uses the right bloody plurals and singulars, and #4: goes by canon as much as you can possibly arrange (I am aware that not everybody knows as much canon as I do, of course). And it has to be *good* in that indefinable "I know it when I see it" way. And then you have to be patient, for the Seraphim Council has much work to do, and the slushpile is deep and wide, and few know what strange things lurk within it...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:06:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Grey Lilim and Malakim At 10:21 AM -0500 2/26/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>>I would say yes. After all, I'm doing something similar in my campaign >>>-- I have the original grey Lilim there.... >> >>http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Lilim.Urilebana.html >> >>The original "Gray Lilim." > >And we all love Ellen! *look for chocolate cache....* Oh, not the demons. The demons think she's a traitor. Or they would, if they knew she'd been hanging around angelbars, betraying Fate- Servitors for revenge and stuff. (The local angels have been brainwashing her. She's on the light side of Gray, these days. Only one leetle problem: "Silly angels. Teach me to love, and never once think that I might *love* the one who created me, whether she cannot or will not return that. Never think that I'd *love* the Word of Freedom..." There are no Free Brights, though.) >>Destiny, for instance, might say, "Well, this demon isn't very >>evil, and with a little work and guidance, could go Bright! And >>thus evil is no longer living, *and* we have another angel! Besides, >>just toasting the vessel will probably result in a ticked off >>selfish demon popping out later. Bad. Encourages evil and fate." >Or Creation. Or Flowers. Especially Flowers. Flowers would probably be jumping up and down in glee -- they get to try to settle something peacefully! They get to try to Redeem the Demon! >> >> Are there written down any rules about how a grey lilim acts? >> >Not officially, but check the In Nomine Collection pages; I'm positive >> >Beth (Queen of the Lilim) has done something on it. >> >> Queen? And poor Lilith a mere Princess? Hm. I suppose it >> could work that way. Though Em has a certain influence on me as >> well. (It's Dai. That angst-fest Lilim is just too insidious.) > >*bow* Redeemable for Valuable Cash Prizes! The problem is that we've >never actually figured out exactly HOW Valuable, and further, if you >redeem him, you're stuck with him and listening to his pathos for >eternity. The Horror! Daimon, Lilim of ANGST! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:00:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) At 12:16 PM +0000 2/26/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 11:23:24PM -0500, Pee Kitty wrote: > >I find the identification of Cherubim with cats in canon a bit strange, >but maybe that's because I'm convinced that there are deep similarities >between cats and Seraphim. #1: check out the poetry on the INC (I think it's in "non-specific resources), where "My Cat Geoffry" is of tribe Tiger and clan Cherub, or something like that. #2: this is, of course, entirely untrue -- cats are demons. Or Habbalah. Hm. Definitely Habbalah-ish -- beautiful, make you love them and do what they want, selfish, and will bite and scratch when annoyed. #3: Anyone who thinks I don't like cats can go sift my litter boxes; I'm paying some $90 a trip to the vet for Huntington's chemo treatments (they're down to Monthly, from bi-weekly, from weekly) and give him prescription pills every day. #4: But they're still demons. Mostly. Sweet little fun demons. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:52:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Role Q At 9:59 AM +0000 2/26/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >How would you cost up a role which had a role of its own? > >ie. Role/6 common thief. Presumably the guy doesn't introduce himself to >friends and family (of which he has some, given a level 6 role) as 'Hi, I'm >a thief' so he must have a 'day job' of some kind to go with it -- maybe a >window cleaner. > >Do you charge the PC for both roles (ie. window cleaner/6 and common >thief/6)? Even though they are going to apply to the same vessel. Or just >assume that all thieves can clean windows? ;-) This applies also to roles >such as spies or undercover policemen, where the role has a role. I'd charge them for the most useful Role, I think -- a thief can break glass to steal something, but a window cleaner is much less likely to be able to use that... Or, to go game-mechanicky -- I'd charge for the Role that would be used to try to damp disturbance. This could mean that if he breaks something while in his day-job, it makes noise... For a spy or undercover cop, it's easier -- everything they're doing is because their job (Spy, Cop) is telling them to. So just charge them for the Spy/Cop Role, and maybe tack a few extra points on just to be sure. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:16:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Contemporary Ethereals At 1:46 PM -0800 2/26/98, Querent wrote: I *told* people that the list would come up with this eventually... The Marches are *not* crawling with lotsa new little ethereals. My personal (not LE) rationale for that is that the older, bigger Ethereals discover yet another incarnation of Yoda or Darth Vader or Papa Smurf, escaped from someone's dreamscape, and smile, and say, "Look, chock full o'Essence! LUNCH!" And then they do a Haagenti, and the little ethereal is gone. Till the next one shows up. "DINNER! " This is probably how some of the old, unworshipped things in the Far Marches exist. (Observe, the above is personal, not canon.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:30:57 -0600 (CST) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> An Expanded Jordi Writeup (warning: liberties /have/ been taken.) On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > #2: this is, of course, entirely untrue -- cats are demons. Or > Habbalah. Hm. Definitely Habbalah-ish -- beautiful, make you > love them and do what they want, selfish, and will bite and > scratch when annoyed. OTOH, Habbalah are angel, not demons... - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #649 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.