From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 2 21:39:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06769 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:39:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA08220 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:09:48 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:09:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199803030309.VAA08220@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #656 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 656 In this digest: Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> .BMP character sheet -> .GIF request IN> Flowers (a story) Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Geometry Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Role Q Re: IN> In Nomine Superiors PBEM Re: IN> Re: IN: Cats Re: IN> people who run In Nomine Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Perspective Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors Re: IN> Neel's Marches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:35 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN> Geometry According to gibsonc@nku.edu: > Can anyone tell me how to find the area of a cylinder, and the volume as > well. How about determining mass size? Area of the base is pi times r squared, with r being the radius of the base. Volume is the height of the cylinder times the area of the base. Mass is the density times the volume. Dan Ozdowski PS - why post this to the In Nomine list? I know there are a few engineers on here, but it's not exactly a celestial cylinder :) . - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:47:34 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Geometry On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 02:25:08PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The volume of the cylinder is (pi) * r(squared) * h, > where r is the radius and h is the height. > > The surface of the cylinder is 2(pi) * r(squared) + ( r * h ). > Are you sure it's not 2(pi) * (r(squared) + (r * h))? Because I seem to recall it being equal to twice the area of one of the circular ends (assuming a standard three-dimensional cylinder), plus the circumference of the cylinder times its height. I am aware that starting sentences with the word "because" is generally considered to be bad grammar. > The mass is the volume times the density, if you know the density. > Alternatively, use a weighing scales, and make allowances for the error of the scales and for local variations in g. In keeping with the nature of my Word, I demand a public trial of the initial poster for clearly violating the rules of what constitutes on-topicness on the list, and similarly for Earl for encouraging the initial poster. Of course, I don't deny the possibility that the original poster had a sound In Nomine-related reason for posting the question, which Earl somehow divined. I'd simply like to hear that reason. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. (Yes, as a matter of fact Malphas is my father/mother.) - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:47:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Geometry thanx On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The volume of the cylinder is (pi) * r(squared) * h, > where r is the radius and h is the height. > > The surface of the cylinder is 2(pi) * r(squared) + ( r * h ). > > The mass is the volume times the density, if you know the density. > > Earl > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:51:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > He was actually attacking John who wrote Revelations, and saying that it > was a rather heavy handed job which did not really mesh well with the rest > of the New Testament. We go from the gospel to the four horsement in one > easy step. It was like a complete about face from what was originally > being preached. The Revelation was almost certainly not written by the same person as the Gospel of St. John. I believe that the Revelation was included in the Bible on the grounds of its supposed authorship, which was later brought into grave doubt. That neatly explains the inconsistencies in message, symbolism, style (I assume, although I've only read translations) and apparent grasp of reality... Revelation was probaly a huge mistake, but it certainly marks Christianity as different from Judaism on the subject of Hell and the Devil. Without it, it would be difficult to distinguish from scripture alone. In Nomine probably wouldn't exist, either. Jo wrote: > God as a very strict judge who is willing to scare people into behaving > but will tend in practice to be inclined to mercy when possible -- even > when this means directly contradicting his own previous threats I don't think that Christianity portrays God in this way. There is, however, the 'Cosmic Get-Out Clause': God decrees that the punishment for sin shall be death. He will not go back on this, but what he can do is take that punishment himself, as saviour. Of course, death couldn't claim Jesus, who had lived a perfect life. Problem solved. The New Covenant replaces Hebrew Law. Of course the important question for the purposes of IN is, where did the Law come from in the first place? Humans/David/Dominic/God are the four main contenders to my mind. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:57:14 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> .BMP character sheet -> .GIF request > It wasn't me, but I can do it if your original "GIFfifier" is not > available. Just e-mail me the file (size not an issue). Problem already taken care of. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> Flowers (a story) Another brilliant story written by another of my players. (As soon as I find the time I'll write one of my own.) Send all fan mail to TaylorG@cts.db.erau.edu . - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- He stepped past the EMTs as they stowed and catalogued their gear. The blonde one looked up and noticed. "Hey doc, did that kid make it?" "Oui...yes, he did - thanks to the both you - you got him here just in time. Good work." The doctor's arms spread wide to hold both medics on the shoulders, "And don't let the old fart give you grief on the inventory either." He winked and continued past them, leaving them to look at each other in wonderment. The hispanic EMT broke the silence, "He's right you know...Frank can just take his lists an stick 'em up his ..." A harried woman nearly ran into Miguel. "Excuse me , but did you see the doctor that just left?" She looked left and right quickly, unable to see around the ambulance. "Err, yeah..." Zach jerked his thumb, indicating the direction. Without a second look at either of them, she ran after the doctor. Zach nodded towards the woman. "Man," he confided with Miguel, "you'd think that they would keep their guns locked up." Miguel nodded and closed up the van. "Yeah, but so long as they don't we'll still have jobs, huh?" He smiled. Zach laughed once, half-heartedly, and nodded. "Let's go." *********************************************************** Clutching her house coat around her she reached out and grabbed for the doctor's raincoat, spinning him around. "Doctor Lowenbrek? You helped my son, Charles?" Like most people, she pronounced it wrong, but he wasn't up to correcting her. He just smiled. "Of course, Ms. Reddien. Like I said, Charles is in critical condi..." "Yes, yes, I know. I just wanted to thank you for all you've done." She clasped his hands in hers. "Thank you, doctor, thank you so much." Smiling, he removed a hand and brushed away the hair from her eyes. "Your most welcome. But Charles will wake up very soon - I'm sure you'll want to be near..." He hand rested softly on the side of her face. He saw so much love in her eyes for the child that it nearly brought him to tears. "Yes, thank-you again!" She kissed him on the cheek and hurried back through the walk-in doors. The noise of the ER pulsed in time with the door as it swung closed. He breathed heavily, stretched and winced. Although he had healed the damage taken from the child, it always left him sore and drained. Turning up the trauma entrance he glanced at his watch - another 16 hour shift. He would have to cut back his hours to keep his Role safe. At that moment the sun broke over the red and orange band on the horizon. The shadows flew down the drive and disappeared all together. The radiant sun washed over him and he simply stopped, eyes closed, drinking in the warmth and the light. He felt the Whole of the Symphony singing the joyousness of the sunrise, dividing the night from the day. He slowly opened his eyes to the new day. *********************************************************** He drove past the gate to his house and pulled up on the fine gravel driveway. At the door he fumbled for his keys, trying to hang on to all the mail and the groceries. Making it through, he kicked the door closed behind him and plopped the mail on the hall table. He placed the groceries along the counter and went to check his messages when a flower arrangement caught his eye. Prominently displayed was a truly breathtaking assortment of flora on his kitchen table. He hadn't time to fit into the local society yet, so no one would've have sent them. He certainly didn't order them. Who would've left this ...? It hit him. "Mistress?" he called out. She occasionally liked to play games like hide and seek just to be different. "Mistress?" Then he noticed the card. Foolish of him to think she would show here, after all he hadn't fully unpacked yet! He sighed - he would have to wander by the rose gardens in the park sometime soon, if only to chat. Opening the card, there was no mistaking who it was from. The Archangel of Flowers had a small task for him. After putting away the groceries, he got busy on his task. First he needed to call this detective Megris [May-grey] and at least meet him. A servant of Rapheal? This would prove...interesting, to say the least. Despite what the Lady might say. "Doctor Erike Van Lauwenbrecte for Detective Megris?" He spoke into the phone as he pulled out some slightly smaller glass vases from a box. "Of course. Anytime that is convenient with you Detective?" The arrangement from Novalis was pulled apart on the kitchen table, sorted by color and height. "The Cafe at eleven. Until then, detective, Adieu." Uncradling the phone from his neck and shoulder, he hung up and began putting together a dozen smaller flower arrangements. *********************************************************** The town was still waking up. That was one of the biggest changes from the east coast. Things here 'wound up' more slowly. It wasn't a bad thing - just a new Rythym replacing one that he was use to. Pulling off 280, the Mercurian headed for the commercial district, his passenger's seat occupied with a box full of flowers. Entering an underground garage, he stopped at the booth of the attendant, brow furrowed in concentration. Not expecting any cars on that side of the booth to stop any longer than nescesary, he was startled by the "Excuse me." "Yes, can I help you?" he said, as he marked his page and closed the book. "I think so, friend. Does this building have at least one public elevator that goes to every floor?" The attendant's face was screwed in thought for a moment. "Uhhhhh....yeah, I think." He looked quizzically at the man with a seat full of flowers. "Bon, bon. Oh - the fewer elevators I need to traverse the fewer flowers will get crushed in the ebb and flow of people." He smiled brightly, and took the ticket from the machine. "Merci." He waved, pulling away. The attendant shook his head - after all, it takes all kinds - and went back to studying his books. *********************************************************** Carrying a large box of flowers, Erike pushed the button for the lobby and waited. The doors slid open to reveal a bright lobby with the morning rays still hitting the back wall. Looking around he found another elevator and stood behind a lone man who was also waiting for it. They both entered and took up opposite corners fo the elevator. Erike waited behind a veritable hedge of flowers for the man to make his selection, the sixth floor. Erike struggled to push a button, 'accidentally' brushing against him. "Seventh, si vous plait." came from behind the flowers. "Oh, sure buddy." The man hit the button above his floor and stepped back. The doors closed and the elevator sped to the sixth floor. Erike rested the box against the railing in the elevator, searching the box for just the right arrangement. The elevator pinged and the doors opened. "Mister Schofner? Give these to Felica. You don't want her feeling under-appreciated, do you?" He said with a smile as the man stepped through the opened doors. "Wha..." All Mr. Schofner could do was to turn to see who had called his name. Erike took the opportunity and handed him the vase with flowers. "Trust me," he said with a wink. Erike stepped back and let the doors close. *********************************************************** Erike exited on the seventh floor, looking about for the receptionist. She was busy answering the phone bank. Large cut brass lettering behind her on the wall informed anyone who cared than this was the offices of "Dewey & Howe, Attrys." "Pardon moi, Patricia. But these flowers are for you." The Mercurian set the box on the ground in front of the high desk and proceeded to extract the large arrangements. He placed them about her desk and office area, taking care to linger in front of a window into the heart of the offices. "I'm sorry sir, but no one ordered these from here." She began thumbing through her deliveries list quickly, desparately hoping that she hadn't screwed up again. "Non?" He questioned. His voice became a little louder. "But they are for *you* mademoiselle." She stopped looking in the paper stack and just stared at him blankly. The office gossips had stopped working and were staring at the sudden riot of colors in the receptionist's area. "M-m-me? I....um....hang on..." she said as she dissappeared underneath her desk. "purse...purse...purse....where in the he...." "Non, non," which brought her back from underneath the table. "Everything has been taken care of," he said with a wink. He cradled the last flower arrangement in an arms as he walked towards the elevator lobby. Just before disappearing around the corner, he turned. "Pardon, I almost forgot. He sends his love." She stared after Erike long after he turned the corner. "So, Tricia - Mike likes you quite a bit, huh?" A fellow worker came up beside her desk, also staring in the direction Erike had gone. "Yeah..." Slowly she began to smile. "Yes, I think he does." The phone rang suddenly, startling both of them. *********************************************************** "Done so soon? That was a lot of flowers." The attendant made change and handed it back to Erike. "Not done quite yet." He took the change. "She is sorry, she thinks the world of you, you know." He handed the last vase of flowers to the stupefied attendant. He smile broadly and winked, "Now I'm done." Pulling away, Erike looked at the local map. "And on to here." He tapped his finger on a intersection circled in red ink. "I think." - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:08:43 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Geometry Of all the stuff that gets posted that has nothing to do with the game, save that the topic be of religion or something close to that, people remark that a question on geometry is "off topic"? Gees. I asked because I haven't used geometry since high school and I need to figure some things out for my game. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:21:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Geometry Yes, Kevin got the formula right. I was muddling radius and circumference. What all this has to do with IN is far more than I can guess. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:02:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Steve Jessop wrote: > That neatly explains the inconsistencies in > message, symbolism, style (I assume, although I've only read > translations) and apparent grasp of reality... Revelation may well be by a different author than the author of the gospel of John or the epistles of John, but I don't think either symbolism or a grasp of reality is at issue here. Except for the introductory material, the whole of Revelation is clearly and explicitly described as a vision, so of course it is symbolic in ways that a gospel is not. And, being a vision, it is not supposed to be understood as a literal description of reality. At least, I haven't heard of even the most die-hard Biblical literalist who thinks the Antichrist is going to appear as a big, red, seven-headed lion rising out of the sea. I'd sure like to see George Lucas do Revelation, though. > Of course the important question for the purposes of IN is, where > did the Law come from in the first place? Humans/David/Dominic/God > are the four main contenders to my mind. That is one of those questions that will have to be answered by individual GMs, since it would quickly get into areas far too theological for SJG to want to touch, I think. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:59:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Geometry On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > Of all the stuff that gets posted that has nothing to do with the game, > save that the topic be of religion or something close to that, people > remark that a question on geometry is "off topic"? Gees. I asked because I > haven't used geometry since high school and I need to figure some things > out for my game. Besides. You are obviously a Servitor of Vapula or Jean testing the lists knowledge of geometry in order to either pursue or promote a Word for your own reasons. See? You can make anything on topic. Rich Gant Angel of Absent-Mindedness ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:18:03 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Judaism > "To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the > water of life. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his > God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the unbelievers, the > polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerors, idolaters, and all > liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, > which is the second death." > > A sample quote from the Book of Revelations, for the sake of demonstrating > just how much the Christian God resembles Barney. Not that we need it when > we have such examples before us as the Catholic Church's extrapolation > from the doctrine of original sin that unbaptised babies go to Hell. > (Limbo was a later invention.) Since we're talking about Revelations, I had the sudden need to share this particular link: http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html It's an essay that tries to prove that the Apocalypse has already come and gone - with the Fall of Rome. I've always thought it was most excellent. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:49:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Geometry At 3:08 PM -0400 3/2/98, gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > Of all the stuff that gets posted that has nothing to do with the game, >save that the topic be of religion or something close to that, people >remark that a question on geometry is "off topic"? Gees. I asked because I >haven't used geometry since high school and I need to figure some things >out for my game. People usually either *start* from "on topic" or wend their way back to it eventually, though. Therefore, to make this topic on-topic, you must now explain how this helped your In Nomine game. I, for one, am rather bemused and curious. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:50:51 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Em writes >> When, if ever, are we likely to see Judaism covered in IN? >> > >When they remove the inherent dualism from the system, close Hell, and >stop making God incarnate in Yves and Kronos. > >Meaning never. As far as I can tell, Judaism is fairly incompatible with >In Nomine. To start with, there is no Hell. > >- - Em > Hmmm. I think that I'll start again. All that I wondered was... What does Heaven 'officially' think about Judaism *within the background of the game*. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't wish to spark off a big debate about the compatibility of any religion to the background of In Nomine. I merely wish to understand their place within it. Besides, I'm sure that you've gone through all of this long before I even joined the lists. :) As IN has patrons for Christianity and Islam - and the status of these faiths has been given some discussion - is there likely to be any such similar treatment for Judaism? - -- Jules ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:36:56 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Role Q Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Hm. One reason I'd want to be careful is if you have > a Thief-Role who is posing as something else *useful* -- letting > him have [x] for free could be unbalancing. It's pretty much a > GM call. > > The thing is, from the game-mechanics reading, it's "actions that > would otherwise disturbe the Symphony" that *pertain to the Role*. > A cop-Role lets you carry a gun and shoot it on the range (practice), > or shoot an escaping fugitive, etc., without making noise (maybe). > If you're a crooked cop, you might get away with beating up people > in Role. But if you're out in the woods stalking that dang Malakite > of Jordi and his friendly wolfpack, every wolf you shoot with your > cop-gun or hit with your cop-baton is going to make Symphonic noise. > > If you're out hunting with your cop buddies, I *might* do the roll > (perhaps at a penalty!) to see if the deer being shot makes > disturbance. If you're alone and there's no way I can see this > as reinforcing the Role, then you make the noise. What she said... ;) Think of a role this way: Your celestial is trying to trick the Symphony into thinking the character is a natural part of it... which it isn't... or at least not THAT kind of natural part. Anyways... If the Role is defined as 'thief' then you don't get any advantage with noise-reduction except for thiefly activities. If you wanted a thief-window washer, and get the benefits of both, I'd say that you have to convince the Symphony a little more. Perhaps pay for the 'window-washer' skill, or simply accept the fact that you get the groovy-cool stuff only from thief and you are a bit of an incompetent window washer! ;) In my campaign, non-canon, if someone works at a Role job with diligence, they get the Role-skill, if not the Role, for free. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:28:13 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Superiors PBEM At 01:32 AM 1/03/98 +0000, you wrote: >> > I am now advertising an In Nomine Superiors PBEM game (sorry Nathan, I sorta port this in to your post:) which will involve the best of all Superior rules submitted to me. I am hoping for minor Superiors ala Furfur so as to not let players get away with too much but if you really want to play Laurence, Yves or, shoch, horror, Haagenti then it can be arranged. Ascii will be fine for submissions but anything else as long as its readable, the game will involve maging souls and servitors, keeping a Cathedral or Principality in line, kowtowing to Lucifer or the Seraphim Council every now and then and encouraging your word in the Corporeal Realm, there will be combat as well (maybe even inter superior combat if your unlucky enough). I await your replies..... Simon, Zoroastrian Prophet "And now Jedi, you will die!" Emperor Palapatine, Return of the Jedi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:58:29 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN: Cats At 07:06 PM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 5:45 PM -0600 2/27/98, veazey@ebicom.net wrote: >>Cats as there own Band. I just want everyone to know that I think that is >>sick. Just my opinion. >>PS I don't think I could handle one of my pets being a demon. I would >>mean that they have been corrupting me since early childhood. *cringe* > I figure that they are somewhat similar to Lilim. You do what they want when they want it and they will let you pet them. Gee, kinda like women.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:49:11 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> people who run In Nomine >Ever had somebody roll an intervention when summoning their Superior? >It can get ugly... Yup. In a demonic one-shot I ran a group of angels of Novalis got a 111 when trying to summon her to help them with this strange PC Habbalah they were dealing with. Instead, the Habbalah was hit by a white light and instantly Redeemed... -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:25:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors On 01 Mar, Chris Stevenson wrote: > Perhaps I keep missing the head of the nail. :-) Players and their effect > on the world may surprise the GM but the world never does. I infer from > your arguments that such is not the case for you. N'est-ce pas? I don't know about Nathaniel, but it is certainly the case for myself and other GMs I know. Quite apart from being unreasonably cunning or incredibly stupid in the course of a scenario, players have this habit of coming up with statements or questions that throw an entirely different light on your world. I can know a world inside out and something that a player says will still wander casually up, grab hold of me by the seraphic resonance and say "Hi there!" A couple of examples are probably in order. In my Amber game, the players did the Final Climactic Bit of rescuing the elder princes with the aid of a villain-turned-friend. Just as they were about to Trump out (under fire), one of them turned round and shot the ex- villain with a drugged crossbow bolt (loaded for Amberite). "It was the only way I could think of to save his life", he said. He was right too -- I hadn't seen it at the time, but if said ex-villain had been allowed to carry out his plan of legging it at this point, he would have been hunted down by the Court of Amber for his part in kidnapping them in the first place. He was good, but nobody's *that* good! Another example, this time Pendragon. We had been tasked to rescue the occupant of a tower. When we got there, all we could tell of the occupant was this loud wailing and mad gibberings, things like "Look not upon the yoghurt when 'tis blue," and "She loves me! She loves me not!" and so on. "Oh, it must be Lancelot," we said. "He is supposed to be mad about now, isn't he?" The referee goldfished for a moment. "You're right," she said, "it must be Lancelot. I didn't think of it, but it must be." - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:01:05 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Emily Dresner wrote: > [much snippage] > > My own feeling is > > that Jung's criticism applies more to the picture presented by the > > preachers of his day. > > > > He was actually attacking John who wrote Revelations, and saying that it > was a rather heavy handed job which did not really mesh well with the rest > of the New Testament. We go from the gospel to the four horsement in one > easy step. It was like a complete about face from what was originally > being preached. > Actually, it may be a stretch from the Epistles and the Gospel of John, but it is certainly in keeping with the judgement of the goats and the sheep, the judgement of the nations mentioned, IIRC, in Matthew. The Epistle of Peter, IIRC, also has a passage that is sometime interpreted to predict the boiling away of the skies, formerly seen as being all-out nuclear war, but could now mean mega-holes in the ozone layer [SPF 10,000 anyone? *g*]. So not everything in the rest of the NT [outside of Revelations] is sweetness and light and Barney-esque. Besides, one popular piece of folklore may call John "the Disciple of Love", but he was also depicted in folklore as having been one of the "Sons of Thunder", along with his brother James, both having a rather volcanic temper, more akin to Thor than Barney. In this light, Revelations is more in line with John's original temperament than his "Love Books". tom timberlake, cadre [at-large] Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 22:01:33 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Perspective At 09:52 AM 2/03/98 -0500, you wrote: > Elizabeth, Lilim Servitor of Lust I for one am sick and tired of everybody portraying us demons as nothing but depraved monsters, out to pollute the oceans, burn down churches and commit mass murder with sharp barbed hooks. Sure there are shedim out there possessing serial killers, sure there are even servitors of my Prince killing mutilating in the name of necrophilia or something else but these are the classic minority that for some reason or other come to represent the majority. You think we are the only ones who commit atrocities, you don't think angels never do? I have seen Malakim hack down a wife and child besides the parent Soldier of God simply because the malakite 'thought' that the Soldiers taint had passed on to them and would eventually corrupt them! I've seen sex shops burnt to the ground and the employees gone down with it, is that a victory for Heaven? and most of all I have seen the atrcoties of religious conflict, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, does any one out there know that Christian soldiers slaughtered a whole city just because there were heretics within? and what the leader said was simple 'Kill them all, let God sort em out' Just what the Hell is that? as far as I know the angels have us more then matched atrocity wise. And another thing I always here is how selfish demons are, selfish, selfish! do you even know what that word means? every, and I mean every act a person or being performs is selfish to one degree, even if you give money to a begger on the street, don't you feel better about yourself? of course you do, you have done something that has bettered yourself and therefore by definition selfish! if you mean we don't perform 'good' deeds by that description, well that's a down right lie, we just don't believe in doing anything just out of obligation, you might see making your partner a cup of tea when she comes home from work a good deed, and yet if you are doing it just because you feel you have to, where is the justice in that? she is just exerting her selfish will over your selfish needs, which one is right? now on the other hand, if you make the tea because you really want to, you love her and it would make you feel king of the Hill for just a moment, then that is a real good, a good deed done because you really want to do it, and only we demons have the freedom to do it. I mean take my partner for example, we have a relationship of equals where none is obligated to the other, neither stifles the other, neither of us makes the other go to stupid dinners or discos, neither of us makes the other listen to music they don't want to hear, or watch movies we don't want to see, that is a good relationship, and I guess I almost love her because of this, almost though, love in itself seems to me to be yet another bogus heaven term. And the Malakim, don't get me started on them, oh how I despise them, they, created to know 'absolute' good, and 'absolute' evil, and then punish the wicked? get real! these are yet another example of the weakness and the stupidity of the God who created them, that was why Lucifer rebelled, because he knew God was weak and stupid, if God had been strong and wise the universe would be a much better place, but it isn't. I mean, we, the demons, are the only homest beings in all of Creation, while angels posture and play games, we are out there, bettering creation, enforcing our will upon the world, and teaching others to do the same, the angels seem only to support a flawed Cosmos, a Cosmos that is going down the drain, only we seek to make something of it. Not to mention the stupid conflicts of their Archangels, striking out at each other like scheming children, then saying 'It's not my fault I was only promoting my word!' what rot, in Hell, when one word is in conflict with another, you know, there is no pretension, just open, straight understandable conflict where survival of the fittest reigns, when Saminga tries to unload AIDs in to the Chicago lesbian commnunity, I do my utmost to stop him, even if it means breaking his servitors heads (a pleasure I must tell you) can you get more honest then that? And to finish of, I think you should meditate on the actual meaning of the word demon, which is 'Wise One' you just meditate on that! smooches and kisses, Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:32:44 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > At least, I haven't heard of even the most die-hard Biblical > literalist who thinks the Antichrist is going to appear as a > big, red, seven-headed lion rising out of the sea. You clearly haven't talked to enough Southern Baptists. > I'd sure like to see George Lucas do Revelation, though. I'd rather have James Cameron do it, m'self. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:34:40 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > As IN has patrons for Christianity and Islam - and the status of these > faiths has been given some discussion - is there likely to be any such > similar treatment for Judaism? Michael has been described as the Patron of Israel, and so could be considered to sponsor Judaism as well. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:50:28 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Statistics for Superiors > > Perhaps I keep missing the head of the nail. :-) Players and > > their effect on the world may surprise the GM but the world > > never does. I infer from your arguments that such is not the > > case for you. N'est-ce pas? > > I don't know about Nathaniel, but it is certainly the case for > myself and other GMs I know. Quite apart from being unreasonably > cunning or incredibly stupid in the course of a scenario, players > have this habit of coming up with statements or questions that throw > an entirely different light on your world. I can know a world > inside out and something that a player says will still wander > casually up, grab hold of me by the seraphic resonance and say "Hi > there!" That is a good point, but tangental to the one I was making. I want the actual world to surprise me, not just the PCs. I want the NPCs and the results of their actions to be unpredictable, not only because I enjoy blinking at weird results, but also because I can only think in so many directions. If my players can read how I think, they can read how a world run by me works; if they know that I dislike PC death, they will be somewhat more reckless with their characters, for instance. If they know that I *don't* fully control the world, however, they will treat it much more seriously. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:58:13 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Neel's Marches >Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:17:20 -0500 >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> Neel's Marches > >Neel's Marches follow an interesting line of folklore that makes >the fays a class of the dead. In Celtic myth (I have recently >learned from GURPS Celtic Myth), the Otherworld was both Faerie >and the land of the dead. I know of a Scandinavian King Olaf who, >on his death, was both canonized as a Christian saint and referred >to as an elf. As a general rule, I try to hew as closely to folklore and regular theology as I can without falling into cliche. The traditional myths tend to be more psychologically real than what I can come up with off the top of my head. Probably this is because there have been generations of people throwing out the stuff that doesn't work universally, which is something I can't replicate on my own. An interesting example of this phenomenon is a computer game I saw -- I forget the title -- where your character was a time traveler. As long as the game stayed in real history, it seemed very alive, but as soon as it shifted to Atlantis, the whole tissue of disbelief tore apart since the sets stopped looking like the product of a real culture. >The population consists of three basic groups: dreamers, who flit >in and out of course; arcane interlopers such as the fay colonists; >and the dreamfolk themselves, who are not really conscious. Rather, >they are outcroppings of the collective unconscious and tend to fall >into archetypal categories -- Fair Young Maidens, Dashing Heroes, >Wise Old Women, Villains of the Blackest Dye, etc. Thank you! You have just perfectly articulated what I want my ethereals to be like. Now if Em could just suggest the appropriate bit of Jung dealing with archetypes, I'll be ready to rock and roll. :) - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #656 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.