From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 9 12:32:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00718 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:32:55 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA22197 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:54:28 -0600 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:54:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199803091754.LAA22197@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #668 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 668 In this digest: IN> God Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith IN> In pursuit of a Word Re: IN> God Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! Re: IN> God Re: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ Re: IN> Duality in Words Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 Re: IN> Duality in Words Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re:IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Re:IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:45:05 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> God Okay, So, i joined the list as you do, a couple of days ago and I'm never going to have time to read it all! AGHH! So here's an idea on God: God is not not the leader of the angels, God is the Universe. The angels claim to serve God, because they work for the benefit of the Symphony at large, they work towrards whatever their idea of the Universe is. They seek to impose this idea on the Universe and hence change God. The demons wish to change God for their own purposes. Each demon tries to change the symphony and hence God to their own selfish ideal for their own purposes. Angelic victory is the defeat of the demons and the garauntee that the symphony will always represent selfless ideals, the essense of the Infernal victory is the Fall of the Symphony and hence the Fall of God. In a sense the Ethereals are right, the angels in defeating the Pagan Gods through Uriel's (may he burn in Hell) Crusade ended the strong influence of the pagans on the symphony and hence changed the nature of God. God can manifest in reality (in fact every creature is merely a manifestation of God), but god has no single conciousness seperate from these manifestations. (I'm thinking a hive mind which Malphas is manipulating :) ) Some manifestations have more access to this hive mind than others. I doubt Goldfish have a big link to the symphony, but Yves, Kronos, Eli and the forces that curse / help the PC's on that 111 are all aspects of God's personality in a very direct way. To conclude, God can't intervene in Armeggedan any more than the symphony itself is likely to. Did that make any sense? Adam Kelly, Ofanim of Last Minute Player Recruitment. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kellys/ PS: What is all this talk about cannons, is every planning to turn In Nomine into somesort of naval war game? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:54:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > Well, I'm taking a stab in the dark here but I think it's possible she > does it all with out the help of a partner (imagine how picky Lilith would > be anyway) I think the Lilim are just derivations of herself, in a way the > Lilim are Lilith but in different bodies and faces, that is why no Prince > has succeeded in duplicating them, they need the essence of Lilith herself, > and no matter how big the favor she'd never give it away. > Also I see Lilith as one huge narcissist, only herself is good enough for > her, plus the Lilim are not just daughters, but well, you get the idea, > hope no one was offended here but to me it seems likely that she would be > most attracted to a reflection of herself, both platonically and or otherwise. In my wonderous universe (ha HA!) Lilith gives birth to Lilim, one at a time, unless she's carrying twins, which does happen from time to time. She gets together with a partner, and through various means, from sex to more bizarre, esoteric methods, the partner coughs up a handful of forces and Lilith naturally does the rest. She spots her children 9 Geas/3, 1 geas for every month she carries the child to term. Then the child is born, and raised in the Guildhall until (s)he is old enough to get into trouble all by her lonesome. (I have no celestially male Lilim, but other people might.) The idea was to offset the fact that every other Band and Choir has a 'gestation' period, where the Reliever/Imp/Gremlin will fledge into something new and interesting. I heavily dislike both instant creation AND the Athena-esque pulled wholly formed in full battle armor from someone's head scenario. It also puts a tight limit on the number of Lilim. It keeps Lilith from making a huge instant army of green chicks with too much plastic surgery, which theoretically she can certainly do. That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:11:42 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions > What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that > would normally generate dissonance? Somebody calls in Dominic, if it's an Archangel. Does the fact it is an order overide > the dissonance, No. or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it > depend on the order? > Probably, should such a thing happen, they'd be nice and remove it. > Examples: > A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a human. On > meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, self-sacrificing, > kind and caring person he has ever encountered. Normally this would cause > the malakite to gain dissonance if he killed him?..... > Normally it wouldn't, and in this case, as Servitors of Fire, it would be dissonant for them not to punish that person. > An ofanite of (doesn't matter!) is 'restrained' because a superior orders > him to remain at point X, or place himself in the custody of X, who > restrains him. > Do we want to get into a metaphysical discussion of the paths of action? > A seraph is ordered to tell a human that the sky is red! > Sometimes the sky is red. At the moment, from where I'm sitting, it isn't, but sometimes it is. Sending Seraphim on missions involving deception is a bad idea, though, even for Seraphim of the Wind. Having mentioned this, I'm now going to insert a pointless anecdote, because it's in the nature of my Word. Mithredath finds Druiel attempting to kill lots of people in the company of another security guard (talk about setting thieves to catch thieves). She's not impressed and points a gun at him. Druiel decides to assume Celestial form. The other security guard asks "Where did he go?". Mithredath simply cannot think of anything to say, because Druiel was inconsiderate enough to fly out through the wall, not through a window. > A cherub is ordered to kill/destroy the object of his attunement (without > removing it, just in case...) > The Superior should really find someone with the Celestial Song of Attraction, in this case, or ask for the loan of a Malakite of Fire. > You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that if your > superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions then no ill > effect occcurs? > In general, that is not correct. If Blandine orders you to assume Celestial Form on Earth, it is still dissonant for you to do so. > As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to retreat > from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior > You're right, it is a bad example. > Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' organisation, > or your superior only, or any superior? > I'd presume that if it's reasonable for the angel to obey that superior's orders, it negates the dissonance. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:19:53 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions PD Andrews wrote: > > Dear All, > > The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing of > opinions has occurred. > What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that > would normally generate dissonance? Does the fact it is an order overide > the dissonance, or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it > depend on the order? Dissonance is dissonance. If ordered to do something dissonant the servitor remains the victim of their resonance. Welcome to the ugly side of the street. All this aside though, Superiors are not stupid, they would rarely order a servitor to do anything that would be dissonant especially in the long term, as they would risk switching sides. > You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that if your > superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions then no ill > effect occcurs? Again I would say that thems the breaks. If you break you dissonant conditions for any reason, you gain the point. The key here is that if you do it, not if you are possessed. You always have a choice, even if you are ordered by your Superior, you can always say no. But if you choose to do it, even under massive pressure, then you get the dissonance. > Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' organisation, > or your superior only, or any superior? > > other options? I would say that Distinctions could be viewed as rank and separate Superiors as the various branches of service. Meaning that those with superior rank within your organization are held at highest regard while those in other branches are respected and their orders followed as long as they don't conflict with any standing orders from your organization. Although I imagine that certain organizations (like Michael and Laurence) have an understanding that the 'civilian' organizations (like Novalis) are not to be allowed to organize military efforts regardless of rank. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:25:36 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > > > Well, I'm taking a stab in the dark here but I think it's possible she > > does it all with out the help of a partner (imagine how picky Lilith would > > be anyway) Actually, how picky is Lilith, really? I never noticed pickiness as being a general trait of Lilim, with the exception of their relationship with Shedim. > > Also I see Lilith as one huge narcissist, only herself is good enough for > > her, plus the Lilim are not just daughters, but well, you get the idea, > > hope no one was offended here but to me it seems likely that she would be > > most attracted to a reflection of herself, both platonically and or otherwise. > Isn't everyone made by the same Superior a brother or sister in a sense, anyway? Celestial family lines are weird. Especially considering that God is almost everyone's grandfather, and Lucifer is almost everyone's uncle (in canon, anyway). The major exceptions to this general rule being those created by one of the newer Superiors, like Laurence, Vapula and Nybbas, who weren't about during the original Fall. > In my wonderous universe (ha HA!) Lilith gives birth to Lilim, one at a > time, unless she's carrying twins, which does happen from time to time. > She gets together with a partner, and through various means, from sex to > more bizarre, esoteric methods, the partner coughs up a handful of forces > and Lilith naturally does the rest. She spots her children 9 Geas/3, 1 > geas for every month she carries the child to term. That's cute. > > The idea was to offset the fact that every other Band and Choir has a > 'gestation' period, where the Reliever/Imp/Gremlin will fledge into > something new and interesting. I heavily dislike both instant creation > AND the Athena-esque pulled wholly formed in full battle armor from > someone's head scenario. It certainly makes characters less interesting in lots of ways. It also puts a tight limit on the number of > Lilim. It keeps Lilith from making a huge instant army of green chicks > with too much plastic surgery, which theoretically she can certainly do. > I presume Lilith doesn't have an infinite number of Forces to make them with, and oversupply will just bring the price down. I tend to think of Forces as Essence constructs, though, so I wouldn't allow that to happen in any case. > That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... > Lilith and Dominic? That's just...weird. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:41:25 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> In pursuit of a Word I am feeling a bit whimsical and am in a bit of a sharing mood so I thought I might share a gem from my campaign. My players all play angelic characters and are based in Boston, MA (I live in NH so Boston was an easy choice). One of the characters, Adrian, a Seraph of Flowers, is working toward becoming the Angel of Home Baked Goodness. In the first adventure the characters where involved in trying to save the soul of a Soldier of Hell (a Sorcerer) and a Lilim. A local demon of Baal who is in charge of many Soldiers in her role as an underworld boss was trying to stop them. To amke a long story short Adrian used his choir attunement, a bit of great Roleplaying, and some fresh baked cookies to disarm a small contingent of well armed goons. It went something like this... Adrian: "Hey, guys. What are you doing." Goon: "We were... well actually, I don't really feel like doing that anymore." Adrian: "Really, that's lovely. Trade you a cookie for that rifle." Goon: "Sure, I wasn't doing anything with it anyways." ... and all this aside I would like to think I run a relatively serious game. What I'm really interested in is other people's thoughts on how I can make the progression toward Adrian's Word an interesting one, without it taking over the entire campaign. I would be interested in hearing about other campaigns where there are player characters in pursuit of a Word and how it was handled or is being handled. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:42:17 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> God On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 01:45:05PM +0000, Ad. wrote: > Okay, > So, i joined the list as you do, a couple of days ago and I'm never going > to have time to read it all! AGHH! > Don't worry. It'll settle down after the first few hundred reach your mailbox. > So here's an idea on God: > God is not not the leader of the angels, God is the Universe. > The angels claim to serve God, because they work for the benefit of the > Symphony at large, they work towrards whatever their idea of the Universe > is. They seek to impose this idea on the Universe and hence change God. > The demons wish to change God for their own purposes. Each demon tries to > change the symphony and hence God to their own selfish ideal for their own > purposes. Does God have consciousness in this model? (Imagine, an atheist In Nomine.) Hmm...I see farther down in the post that he doesn't, exactly. Angelic victory is the defeat of the demons and the garauntee > that the symphony will always represent selfless ideals, the essense of > the Infernal victory is the Fall of the Symphony and hence the Fall of > God. Or it splits apart into lots of seperate universes which have no connection with each other, and then we start playing Mage. > In a sense the Ethereals are right, the angels in defeating the Pagan Gods > through Uriel's (may he burn in Hell) Crusade ended the strong influence > of the pagans on the symphony and hence changed the nature of God. > God can manifest in reality (in fact every creature is merely a > manifestation of God), but god has no single conciousness seperate from > these manifestations. (I'm thinking a hive mind which Malphas is > manipulating :) ) So who was it put Laurence in charge of the Armies of "God" and recalled Uriel? Yves? Dominic? > Adam Kelly, > Ofanim of Last Minute Player Recruitment. > http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kellys/ > I shudder to think about the fact that he's my GM and I knew absolutely nothing about this stuff that was in his head. > PS: What is all this talk about cannons, is every planning to turn In > Nomine into somesort of naval war game? ;) And Bad Puns. Very bad puns indeed. But isn't there someone who's doing a PbEM like this? Or with smuggling and the likes anyway? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:45:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Kevin Walsh wrote: > Isn't everyone made by the same Superior a brother or sister in a > sense, anyway? Celestial family lines are weird. Especially > considering that God is almost everyone's grandfather, and Lucifer > is almost everyone's uncle (in canon, anyway). This could be played up to give the game an Amber-esque feel, or the *lack* of family feeling could be played up to make celestials feel less human. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:51:09 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > > The idea was to offset the fact that every other Band and Choir has a > > 'gestation' period, where the Reliever/Imp/Gremlin will fledge into > > something new and interesting. I heavily dislike both instant creation > > AND the Athena-esque pulled wholly formed in full battle armor from > > someone's head scenario. > > It certainly makes characters less interesting in lots of ways. My way or the *poof* Now your a Lilim concept? You can make the interesting in both ways, actually. It's a matter of point of view. I just am morally opposed to things being created fully formed out of the air. (Morally? Well, not MORALLY. Just am.) On the other hand, I don't have too many clueless wide eyed Lilim, either. Not that they don't exist, it's just that by the time anyone gets to them, even the youngest has had some sort of education and world experiences to get them started. Although the image of baby Lilim having a baby Balseraph to play with has stuck in my head quasi-permenantly. Be AFRAID! > It also puts a tight limit on the number of > > Lilim. It keeps Lilith from making a huge instant army of green chicks > > with too much plastic surgery, which theoretically she can certainly do. > > > I presume Lilith doesn't have an infinite number of Forces to make them > with, and oversupply will just bring the price down. I tend to think of > Forces as Essence constructs, though, so I wouldn't allow that to happen > in any case. I doubt she has infinite Forces _either_, but the possibility exists. Or enough of it exists that I give it passing mention. I like small numbers of Lilim. Very small numbers. In my universe, I believe Saminga has a grand total of two. Thousands of Shedim, though. > > That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... > > > Lilith and Dominic? That's just...weird. > Nah. Beth posted one to the List recently. A Bright Lilim of Dominic. She, of course, is being sucked into my game, but just imagine the ANGST... "Sorry your Dad Fell. Here's a cookie." - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:57:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! Armand wrote: > Feel free to correct me if I don't have my world religions down, but > doesn't this sound a lot like Hinduism? Yes, it is. This is a list of heresies, so the Catholic Church was here officially setting its face against Hinduism. > I think that the Catholic church has changed opinion on this. > The triune god (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is in everything > according to most of the Catholics I know. Don't confuse pantheism (the heretical doctrine that God is the universe) with omnipresence (the orthodox doctrine that God is present everywhere). All mainstream forms of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam reject pantheism and accept omnipresence. If the distinction seems confusing to you, think of the relationship of an author to his story. The author is present, in one mode or another, everywhere in the story, but you cannot say that the author IS the story. On the other hand, the author can appear in the story if he chooses to. This would correspond, theologically, to a vision of God, or to the Incarnation. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:01:48 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> God Ad. wrote: [rather good sized snip including a description of victory conditions for Angels/Demons] > Did that make any sense? Certainly, you have a possible idea that fits in fairly well with real world religion. One thing you may want to think about is a reason as to why, if the Angel's victory condition is the death/destruction of all the Demons, why didn't they do it ages ago, immediately after the Fall when the Angels outnumbered the Demons two to one? Or even at some later date before the Demons grew to the immense organization they are now? There needs to be a reason in game, even if only you know it. In my opinion a stronger story can be writ if the Angelic victory condition is a bit different, perhaps along the lines of redeeming all the Demons and/or teaching them the error of their ways and healing the Symphony. Just an idea. For the record, welcome to the list. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:00:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ David Edelstein wrote: > Unfortunately, it's difficult to keep an eye on canonical > consistency while also writing things suitable for non-canon > campaigns. I didn't think Neel was asking for help with non-canonical campaigns, but rather for help within the range of flavors described in the IN core book -- Dark, Cinematic, Comic, etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:05:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words Frank Lazar wrote: > In the IN cantos, Lilith was one of the three humans created > perfect without blemish. The other two Fell from Grace at Eden. > They, either > > 1. Ultimately succumbed to their Fates and are roasting in the > Principality of your preference. > > 2. Redeemed themselves Interestingly enough, the ultimate fate of Adam and Eve was a hot topic at one point in the Middle Ages. The concensus was that they were redeemed and brought out of Hell with the other worthies of the Old Testament and assorted righteous pagans, at the time of the Resurrection. Dante has a brief interview with the soul of Adam in Heaven, in the Paradiso section of his Comedy. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:06:52 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > > Isn't everyone made by the same Superior a brother or sister in a > > sense, anyway? Celestial family lines are weird. Especially > > considering that God is almost everyone's grandfather, and Lucifer > > is almost everyone's uncle (in canon, anyway). > > This could be played up to give the game an Amber-esque feel, or the > *lack* of family feeling could be played up to make celestials feel > less human. In our Amber game, Allen, who plays Simon son of Bleys, and conversely Maxwell, Cherub of the Sword and Man of Impeccible Dress and Nipple Rings pointed out that he had discovered what the Logrus was. It was our family tree. I thought about this, and being inbred as any good Amberite is, agreed. And now this has come up, and it's a funky yet interesting concept. When celestials start making little celestials, the family trees start getting convoluted. Yeesh. Be afraid. BE AFRAID! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:22:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Emily Dresner wrote: > When celestials start making little celestials, the family trees > start getting convoluted. I'll say, especially since the number of parents is arbitrary (so long as there is one Superior) and there are no sexes, but there *are* fourteen or so "species" or "breeding strains" (bands and choirs) to consider. Bad genealogists wind up in Kronos' record room, where they are set to composing the family trees of Heaven and Hell. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:40:50 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > I'll say, especially since the number of parents is arbitrary (so > long as there is one Superior) and there are no sexes, but there > *are* fourteen or so "species" or "breeding strains" (bands and > choirs) to consider. Woo hoo! Confusion abounds! Luckily, there are no cross-breeds. Either you are of that Band/Choir, or you aren't. > Bad genealogists wind up in Kronos' record room, where they are > set to composing the family trees of Heaven and Hell. And they're only allowed to use old DOS-based Freeware apps to do the databases, they don't get access to the Social Security death index, and they have to scan in pictures with a hand scanner from the early 80's. :) [I do genealogies for my family.] - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:08:32 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith - ---Emily Dresner wrote: > That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... C'mon. You really think an archangel is going to willingly give some of its forces to create a new /demon/ -- something that is going to be born in the pit and probably spend all of its existence fighting that archangel's allies? It makes no sense. Its like condemning a new being to hell for no reason, when you could be creating angels. If archangel-spawned lilim could begin bright, that would be different, but they don't. Even if Lilith gets them to do it via geas (I reckon thats a geas/6 to actively help create a demon) that may mean she has to spend a lot of her time actively trying to do helpful things for archangels. Thats a dangerous pursuit, especially when it must be easier for her to just help out her own allies -- because the lilim she generates are just the same. It doesn't figure. I mean, if she had a ton of geas/6 on archangels, there have got to be handier things she could ask them to do. jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:28:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions > > As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to retreat > > from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior Basically, an angel of Michael, once they start fighting, needs a higher ranked angel to 'rescue' them if sound tactics dictate that they should retreat (to prepared defensive positions, perhaps). So, does a squad of Michael's Lads always keep one guy in the back, not fighting, so that he can order the others to retreat, and then run away himself, thereby avoiding dissonance all round? Not very Michael, I think, since they won't _plan_ to have to retreat. However, they aren't thick, so they ought to consider the possibility that they might have to. A possible get-out that I see is to say that it is not dissonant for the highest-ranked angel present, if a successful 'tactics' roll indicates that the best chance for victory lies in retreat, to do that, and to order others to do so. The other option, of course, is that the highest ranked angel can order the others away, but he himself has to keep on fighting. Very brave and self-sacrificing, but strategically somewhat dense, and Michael will lose valuable officers unnecessarily. Can anyone help? Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > (Now why do all my balseraph NPCs seem to want to immortalise their words > of wisdom in tacky paperback format? Its not as if anyone with a brain > would BUY the stuff...) Which goes a long way towards ensuring that many, *many* people will purchase and read the balseraph's material. :) Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:40:34 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > > That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... > > C'mon. You really think an archangel is going to willingly give some of its > forces to create a new /demon/ -- something that is going to be born in the > pit and probably spend all of its existence fighting that archangel's > allies? It makes no sense. Its like condemning a new being to hell for no > reason, when you could be creating angels. If archangel-spawned lilim could > begin bright, that would be different, but they don't. The comment above is just a joke. It simply gave way to some weird conversations. The way I had it set up is that 99% of all Lilim are parented from Demon Princes or (far more likely) associated Word Bound Dukes who are ordered to cough up the necessary force. The idea is to spawn a Lilim who would have certain natural tendancies toward that particular Prince's Word, to increase the probability that they will be able to get their hands on their very own brand new Green Chick 10, 15, 20 years down the line. Think of it as an investment. Lilith gets her return, to be sure, in favors, especially when she helps the process along with trading around the Lilim's birth geasa. It sounds like the Lilim is being born with predestination, and it's true, they certainly are. If you can promise an investment, then you're worth keeping around, and Lilith can use her own Daughters as pawns in adding to her own powerbase. Do I have it set up such that Archangels can do this? Definitely. Does it happen? Yes, because Lilith (my game only) plays both side of the fence, but very very rarely. Does she mate with Laurence on a daily basis? I don't _think_ so. (Of course, this spun off some amusing conversations....) Does the Archangel in question realize that he/she/it is damning their progeny to Hell and may _never_ get them to redeem and enter Heaven? Oh yes. No doubt about it. But they have all the time in the world to track down their child when they pop up on Earth and get out the brain washing sponges. > Even if Lilith gets them to do it via geas (I reckon thats a geas/6 to > actively help create a demon) that may mean she has to spend a lot of her > time actively trying to do helpful things for archangels. Thats a dangerous > pursuit, especially when it must be easier for her to just help out her own > allies -- because the lilim she generates are just the same. It doesn't > figure. Read above. The common case is that the Lilim are created from high level Demons only, for political purposes. Why do it with an Archangel? Maybe Lilith really needs a brand new computer system... > I mean, if she had a ton of geas/6 on archangels, there have got to be > handier things she could ask them to do. Certainly. It's a question of what she wants, and what she can give in return. Lilim are sort of like currency. She can sell this one to Yves for that new encyclopedia set. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 According to Sam Kington: > > Elohim of Gabriel > Graphic: A scrawny lad smiling, as a large angelic figure is giving a > bully-like child a swirly (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's > plunging someone's head in a toilet and flushing) > Text:They seek out those who enjoy causing emotional or psychological > pain. If a player is threatening to attack someone (in your opinion), by > spending their action token, they have ten seconds to commit to an > attack (by spending a token). Otherwise, they cannot attack the > threatened player for the rest of the turn! (Does not apply in a > two-player game.) > Alignments:Straight > Power 2 Resistance 5 > Control arrows: In: (T) Out: What happened on the alignments and attributes on this one? All the others have "angelic" as an attribute but not this one? Also, why does an Elohite have any alignments? I would think that an elohite would especially NOT have alignments because they indicate a general bias in behavioral trends. Although, I guess you could have "dissonant angel of" cards too... Thanks, Dan Ozdowski - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:48:35 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words Hi, > It may not fit too well with all the dark gloomy campaigns out there >but we're happy! ::smile:: Well, I think even in a dark campaign the fact that the Word hierarchy is very loopy fits well, since ostensibly the Demonic side is winning and therefore the Heavenly Hosts are in disarray at the best of times. There doesn't appear to be a single rallying point for a dark campaign on the Archangel level and hence the current system of Wording continues. Mind you, I alway saw the Angelic Hierarchy as tied to the spirituality of man. Prophecy 2 had an interesting scene where for a variety of reasons they ended up in Eden which was now a cyberpunk's wet dream and Daniel said that it was "what man had made of it." Whether they like it or not, angels and humans are linked, and the disarray in the hierarchy could just be pointed out to be the decline of humanity.. ::smile:: Of course, that would be a little dark. :) Pete ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:57:33 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall Hi, >The Angel has nothing to lose by accepting help, since almost everything >he does will make the Demon more powerful in any case, and if he turned it >down, the Demon would work on his own plans, which almost certainly >_don't_ help Heaven. Hmmmmm, interesting, I like that thought... damned if you do and damned if you don't. I can't really see any players liking it, but I certainly enjoy it. :) Of course, this all assumes that you work from a Dualistic Word scheme, which apparently few do work from. Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 "Yea, believe in me and ye shall live. First caller!" -- Jesus, "South Park" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:03:11 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions >Dear All, > > The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing of >opinions has occurred. > What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that >would normally generate dissonance? Does the fact it is an order overide >the dissonance, or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it >depend on the order? > > Examples: >A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a human. On >meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, self-sacrificing, >kind and caring person he has ever encountered. Normally this would cause >the malakite to gain dissonance if he killed him?..... (More follow in the same vein.) I would like to think that my AA's would be a little smarter than that. Setting an angel to fall isn't a wise move. It lowers morale and wastes resources. IMO, Gabriel would send an Elohite who wouldn't have the Malakite's moral compunctions. Let the tool be suited the job, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:32 -0600 (CST) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: Re:IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 ROTFL! Great stuff. In Nomine inside-out? I, for one, want to see the Princes. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu Hmmmn: I can see it now - the PC's roll a bad intervention when using and you dump em into mirrorSymphony fer a while... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:31:22 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Hi, Firstly a huge thank you to the list for getting that Wording thing explained. I appreciate it a lot and now have a few more ideas on the subject to wade through (boy, Adam was right, the volume on this list is wild). Now, admittedly enough, IN takes a wild, careening ride through Angelic history with a pair of scissors and some paper and glue and wails away on the traditional angelic structure nicely. I wonder, though, if anyone out there plays their version of IN with classic angels still in place, rather than the freshly created new ones (eg. Raphael rather than Jordi or whatever). I guess it was a little disappointing to see a number of prominent angels (Archangels, more properly) removed from the game before it started. So if anyone out there has a game based entirely on the traditional Archangels, I would like to hear from you! If I had the time, I'd assemble it all myself, but noooo, have to go find a source of income blah blah.. :) Incidentally, Friday's episode of Millennium beautifully illustrated how a Dual Word scheme could work. I will not spoil it but there are two factions in the Millennium Group, one religious and one scientific, and they pursue the same "Word" (Millennium) and believe that something significant will happen -- one believes a religious event and one believes a scientific event. Both know SOMETHING will happen, though, and while they can work together when necessary, they don't seem to overly respect each other and promote the same Word from different angles. Speaking of Millennium, has anyone played a game with their take on angels? Pretty interesting, I thought. It's for a REALLY dark IN game, though, in which the angels find it almost insufferably painful to be on Earth proper due to the nature of humanity and the world they have created, and I would assume that higher angels might not be able to manifest at all, so painful would it be. It would bring a tragic (if limiting) nature to the game for a Mercurian to suddenly find out that much of the Host can barely manifest. Like I said, really dark. Arguably the angels in that setting could already be going about saving a select few and are planning to reboot Earth. :) Hmm, you know, El Nino is causing an awful lot of damage lately... ::smile:: Oh well, enough babbling for now. Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 Inspiration to Clarielle, Mercurian of Death (kisses) * * * * * * * * * * * "There is no such thing as a soul. It's just something they made up, like the bogeyman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:43:54 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re:IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 >Hmmmn: I can see it now - the PC's roll a bad intervention when using > and you dump em into mirrorSymphony fer a >while... Why do I get these visions of Jean with a goatee? *ducks pelting from Star Trek fans* -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #668 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.