From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 19 05:14:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09584 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:14:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA03598 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:04:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:04:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199803191104.FAA03598@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #684 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 684 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim Re: IN> Character Problems IN> Exorcism and Limbo Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Dies Irae: a jumprope chant? Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Free Lilim Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) Re: IN> Exorcism and Limbo Re: IN> Exorcism and Limbo Re: IN> Free Lilim IN> Calling all reasearch gurus Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Free Lilim IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Calling all reasearch gurus Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Variant Campaigns (Was Preacher Campaign) Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Free Lilim Re: IN> Superior PBEM IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim IN> Bound! Re: IN> Free Lilim IN> Re: Disturbances IN> Re: Free Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 12:56 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim >Yeah, but what I really wanted to know is whether Free Lilim get her >rites/dissonance in the following situations: > >a> Working off a starting Geas that Lilith herself has called in >b> Working off a starting Geas that Lilith has traded to another being Yes and yes, as far as I know. >* The Geas of a starting Free Lilim is worth around 1 point per level. The canon answer is 0 points -- this *should* be in the FAQ, but isn't. The geases are to balance the fact that the Lilim doesn't answer to a Superior, they are not Discords worth points. (Geases are *never* worth points as Discords -- read the Geas Discord carefully.) >Let's say that for a starting character each level of Geas is nominally >worth 1 point, increasing to 3 points per level for a word-bound Free >Lilim. Actually, I don't think a Free Lilim CAN be word bound. It's probably not impossible, though unlikely, I agree.... But Lucifer does strange things sometimes. >You can't buy rites. Mummies can, for 3 points/Rite -- p. IN193. >CONCLUSION >---------- >When a free Lilim at the end of an adventure has pleased a superior, >that superior might offer a reward (attunement, rite, song etc) in >exchange for future service of that Free Lilim. Actually, if the Lilim has done a favor for the Superior, she'll *expect* payment, even if this isn't done as part of a Geas exchange. Only if the Superior used an existing Geas to get the favor done, will the Lilim think she's "square" without additional payment. Of course, doing a favor without a firm commitment to get paid for it is fairly dumb; most Lilim wouldn't do it. If they *accidentally* do someone a favor, they'll try to get paid for it, I suspect. Trade of favors is life itself to a Free Lilim.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:11:28 -0800 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Character Problems On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 07:21:37PM +0000, Steve Jessop wrote: >> The Malakim shouldn't say 'if I can'. When they make an Oath, that's it. >> The business about 'destroy evil if possible' always struck me as >> unpleasant legalese, > >Legalese is important, especially for Malakite lawyers. > >> And they gain a note of dissonance *each time* they break an Oath, rather >> than just the once. >> >Absolutely right. > >> I let Seraphim get away with being picky about the letter of what they >> say, but with Malakim it is very much the spirit of their words that >> matters. >> >Actually, I tend to think that the letter of an Oath is very important for >Malakim as well, and that the spirit of a promise is more important for >Cherubim. (Cherubim have problems with breaking promises too.) >Actually, the most bound, IMO, are Servitors of the Sword, who get >dissonance for every order they ever receive which they break in spirit or >letter. That is so massively unpleasant it hardly bears thinking about. Keep in mind that Oaths would be made in the Celestial tongue. Since it's *incapable* of being false, it might automatically lend itself to including the legalese. Seraphim use this language all the time, so of course they would have to be including things like "if possible" and "Lord willing" and "barring unforeseen circumstances". Instead of using bulky phrases like this every sentence or two, the language probably includes easy ways of saying this sort of thing. Maybe Malakim players should state the intent of the oath, then assume that the Celestial tongue takes care of tying up loopholes? Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:27:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Exorcism and Limbo Exorcism is a standard part of spirit-lore, but so far as I know there is no discussion of it in the IN canon. Is any planned? It seems to me there are two basic possibilities for an exorcized celestial: either they are forced into the Celestial plane or they are cast into Limbo (and, in Heaven or Hell, their Heart shatters). I like the latter because it gives so much more incentive to avoid exorcism. Since exorcism is sort of the reverse of invocation, perhaps it could have similar game mechanics, e.g.: Basic chance of exorcizing: 0 for a celestial, ethereal being, or unqualified human 2 for a member in good standing of a religion (any religion) 3 for an ordained/certified/official cleric of a religion Exorcism modifiers: - -1 if you are a Soldier on the same side as the target +1 if you are a Soldier on the opposite side from the target +2 for performing a traditional ritual with one or two people +3 for performing a traditional ritual with three or more people Celestials can NOT perform exorcisms. Unlike humans, they are all equally out of place in the Corporeal realm. Angels are just as succeptible as demons; you just don't hear about it because the people who talk most about exorcism are, as the saying goes, on the side of the angels. Exorcism always applies to a person, place, or thing. The exorcised celestial is unable to approach, touch, or act on the object while the exorcism is in effect. Any atunements are broken. The results depend on the check digit of the d666 roll: 1: The exorcized must flee and stay away for a day. 2: The exorcized is forced to go Celestial and stay away for a month. 3: The exorcized is forced to go Celestial and stay away for a year. 4: The exorcized is cast into Limbo; its Heart shatters; it must stay away for three years after returning from Limbo. 5: As with 4, but the exorcized suffers Trauma, too, and must stay away for seven years after returning from Limbo. 6: As with 5, but the exorcized must stay away permanently. Favorable interventions probably get you the results of a 6 check digit plus a Discord, or a permanent plus for the exorcist's chances on later exorcisms. Hostile interventions... Well, for a start, the would-be exorcist is completely at the mercy of the targeted celestial, I'd think. How do those sound? Or have I been anticipated in canon somewhere? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:38:14 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? >Now, on to the Roman soldier Legend. In the Bible, it says that the Centurion >cried out, 'Surely this was the Son of God!' when the events around Jesus' >death occured. >He was identified as Caius Longinus, who also pierced Jesus' side. He was, in >legend, later baptized. He then moved to Britian, where his descendants became >the Fisher-King. The Fisher-King was the guardian of both the Spear of >Longinus and the Holy Grail. And now we're getting into Arthurian legends. > >Mark (But boy is it fun!) I've also read that both the spear and the Grail were brought up by Joseph of Aramathea. Another note on the Grail, anyone ever notice that the wounds suffered by the Fisher-King were not unlike those of someone with radiation poisoning (Focault's Pendulum - Eco) Another thing about the Grail that I recently read was that it could be the cauldron of Raven that he used to stir the world into being. Just imagine, an etheral packing around that kind of power... Armand Ofanim of odd legends, Diplomat to the Etherals "Sorry about that whole Uriel thing, he was just a loose cannon. Please sir, put that cauldron away" 0.....vrooom! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:38:53 -0600 From: "Micah T.J. Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Dies Irae: a jumprope chant? >You know you went to a hardline Parochial school when: > > > >Your idea of a good jumprope rhyme is the Dies Irae... > >Just thought I'd share something that would scare everyone. Most appropriate > for young Malakim. > > Mark(Just don't ask me for a translation...) Here it is for reference: Dies irae, dies illa, solvet saeclum in favilla, teste David cum Sybilla. Quantus tremor est futurus, quando judex est venturus, cuncta stricte discussurus! Tuba mirum spargens sonum, per sepulchra regionem, coget omnes ante thronum. Mors stupebit et natura, cum resurget creatura, judicanti responsura. Liber scriptus proferetur, in quo totum continetur, unde mundus judicetur. Judex ergo cum sedebit, quidquid latet apparebit, nil inultum remanebit. Quid sum miser tunc dicturus, quem patronum rogaturus, cum vix justus sit securus? Dreaded day, that day of ire, when the world shall melt in fire, told by Sibyl and David's lyre. Fright men's hearts shall rudely shift, as the Judge through gleaming rift, come each soul to closely sift. Then the trumpet's shrill refrain, piercing tombs by hill and plain, souls to judgment shall arraign. Death and nature stand aghast, as the bodies rising fast hie to hear the sentence passed. Then before him shall be placed, that whereon the verdict's based, book wherein each deed is traced. When the Judge His seat shall gain, all that's hidden shall be plain, nothing shall unjudged remain. Wretched man, what can I plead, whom to ask to intercede, when the just much mercy need? __________ __________ Micah T.J. Jackson micahj@io.com __________ __________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:50:32 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim At 12:42 18/03/98 EST, you wrote: > > >Mummies can buy a Rite for 3 character points, I'd charge a Geas/4. >Rites aren't all *that* common, that a mere Geas/2 ought to buy one, I >think. > On an unrelated note, if I were a superior I would teach EVERYONE my rites for free. Becuase doing a superior's rites furthers its word ;-) Its like.. if I ran a phone company I would give all subscribers a fre answerphone (answerphones generate calls where none would have existed otherwise). jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:01:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim At 7:49 PM -0800 3/17/98, David Streeter wrote: >>Are Free Lilim considered renergades as they do not have a superior, Asmodeus considers the Free Lilim to be loose cannons, when they're not Geas-bound to someone (and often even then), but the Game leaves them alone so long as they don't start hanging around with bad company... like angels. The Game may be slightly more likely to inflict petty harassment on a Free, though. >>or is a demon only a renegade if he/she had a superior and then >>ignored that superior? A demon is Renegade if: his Prince declares him to be so (which can be done if the demon disobeys him often); he shatters his Heart and runs; the Game declares him to be Renegade and has enough evidence of it (plausibly manufactured, at the least) to keep his Prince from wanting to help him get off the hook. (Yes, the Game *is* full of crooked-cop personalities. Sometimes it's *GOOD* to be the Game!) There are also certain Discords that will make the Game do that declaration -- Merciful, the ones that add to dissonance rolls, and one optional one that David Edelstein hates, which will be detailed in the IPG: Selfless. If they spot you with some of those, you'd better get in good with your Prince fast. >While on the subject... > >When do Free Lilim get Lilith's rites? In the IPG, *at the printers* (yay!), I believe it says that she offers it to all of her Daughters. (Probably shortly after their creation.) Most of her Free Daughters take it; many of the bound are forbidden to by their Princes. This is the only exception to the rule in the Lilim book that the Frees don't start with attunements and whatnot. >I'm GMing a Free Lilim, who will be appearing in both Angelic and >Infernal parties. What cost (in terms of a Geas) should I assign >Attunements and Rites? Other people (especially Walter Milliken) have answered that. Trust Walter -- he's my husband and hears me ramble. O;> (Sometimes we disagree, of course, but I'll point those out if they happen.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:10:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) At 12:03 PM +0000 3/18/98, Julian Breen wrote: >In the film, Azazel, a shedite (wasn't he supposed to be a grigori?) can >possess animals as well as humans...I wonder if this is something that >we shall see in the IPG? Expanded resonance perhaps? Nononononononono. (Animals obviously don't have enough moral sense to "selfish-ize" in the Shedite way. And you don't want to know what Jordi would do to one using the Song of Possession to an animal...) If you got a Prince of the right Word (Fallen Jordi!!), then that would be where Shedim possessing animals would show up, probably. >And... whilst I'm on this subject... :) >Does a celestial possessing a human still count *as* a human for >purposes of a shedite wishing to possess it? Reason for asking is that >damage dealt to a kyrios host makes noise in the Symphony, implying that >it is. A Shedite or Kyrio in a host causes disturbance if they break something *and* a celestial damaging the host will cause disturbance. If a Shedite wants to possess someone and there's already a Kyrio or someone using the Song of Possession there, then I think the rules are in the APG... p. APG56, first full paragraph on the page. >Does the same hold true for somebody using the Song of Possession? I'd say so, sure. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:15:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Exorcism and Limbo At 1:27 PM -0500 3/18/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Exorcism is a standard part of spirit-lore, but so far as I know >there is no discussion of it in the IN canon. Is any planned? There is an artifact that does this, in the Liber Reliquarum. There may be Songs that do likewise. The other common thing is to abuse the host enough so that the possessor leaves, I suspect... (Or knock the host out -- that works for Shedim...) I *suspect* the major effect of canon exorcism would be "kicked out of the host, into celestial form" (no, I don't know what that would do for an ethereal, and I don't want to think about it yet). That said, feel *free* to invent other options for me to look at and admire! (Which I do. I may default to canon myself, but I *adore* watching non-canon.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:49:42 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Exorcism and Limbo Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Exorcism is a standard part of spirit-lore, but so far as I know > there is no discussion of it in the IN canon. Is any planned? Look in the Marches sourcebook under Sorcery. Exorcism is definitely in there, though it isn't called exorcism. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:11:23 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim In reply to: > You only get Lilith's rites (AND her dissonance conditions - you never get > one without the other!) when you are directly working for her. Remember > that she only hires temps...she has *no* permanent Servitors. IMG ( and the games I've played), Free Lilim always have access to Lilith's rites, even when temporarily workng for someone else, unless they sig up as a permanent servitor of a Prince. Then they lose them. The reasoning? Even when casually working for others, the Free Lil is supporting Mother's Word by demonstrating free will in negotiating contracts, making deals etc. They're also still bound by her Dissonance. > Incorrect. A Geas/2 is 0 points at character creation. Reread Geas...it is > not a normal Discord, and can NOT be taken at character creation for extra > points. As a house rule, I allow Geasa to be taken by starting Lilim characters (it's easy for them to slip up and fall into debt) and any other character who can provide me with a valid background reason. Why should a GM follow a rule which limits such wonderful story hooks? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:06:39 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: IN> Calling all reasearch gurus G'day list I finally managed to locate some of those valuable references some of you have informed us about, and for that, many thanks are given. Thought I'd let you know of a cute little book I found at the library yesterday. My apologies if someone has posted this already: "Hell, An Illustrated History of the Netherworld" by Richard Craze ISBN # 1 57324 059 1 It's not very long, 91 pages, just perfect those of us who don't want to do a lot of in depth reading and research, and can be read in less than an hour or so. When I was looking for books on Angelology I found plenty of things I *didn't* want, ie Angels in Today's Enlightenment, and other inspirational drek. It took me a little while to find a Historical/biblical reference, but thanks to you guys I did find some real good stuff. What I can't seem to find however is a good reference about Demonology, preferably something historical in basis. Someone a while back suggested "Who In Hell" which I am *still* trying to locate. Are there any other good sources of material? -- Thom D. (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:12:53 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? > Another thing about the Grail that I recently read was that it could be the > cauldron of Raven that he used to stir the world into being. Just imagine, > an etheral packing around that kind of power... Ah yes, the artifact known as the Black Cauldron, (Not from the book of the same name.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:07:47 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas At 08:35 AM 18/03/98 -0900, you wrote: >At 08:52 PM 3/17/98 +0900, you wrote: >>... once I got on this list I saw people had all sorts of ideas, like >>converting In Nomine to the Kabbalah, to Buddhism, Hinduism, changing >>Archangel Words, etc so I thought, why not have a go at it, anyway, in some >>cases it would be simple, like In Nomine Spawn, or In Nomine Star Wars (the >>sci fi parts would be difficult but you've got the angel demon thing set >>with the dark side and the light side of the Force) Jedi could be Soliders >>of God, Sith could be Soliders of Hell, etc, but I guess a more challening >>notion came to me, based as it was on a recent book I read, about the whole >>ancient astronaut theory, which may be directly responsible for a large >>number of our myths, the book was called 'Gods of the New Millennium and I >>recommend reading it.... > > Hi, all. I'm new to the list. Anyway, for my 2 cents, I get the feeling >that all religions are represented in the Heaven of In Nomine (which is >where a lot of conflict can come from in a campaign perspective). And that >would probably mean the "ancient astronaut" theory is there as well. Maybe >somewhere there could be Hubbard, the Arch-angel of Ancient Astronauts? For >that matter, maybe there could also be Sagan, the Arch-angel of Atheists... >or maybe a Demon Prince.... (No disrespect to Dr. Sagan or Mr. Hubbard >intended of course. :-) > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Scott Tengelin >Claymore Dragon -=(UDIC)=- >Slyfeind Apollo of the Elves of Spiritwood > (An Ultima Online guild) >http://www.angelfire.com/wa/slyfeind >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > >None taken, but when I wrote this I was feeling my way through it, therefore if it was too long, or lacked punctuation. I'm soory. It was because it was so long that I forgot to elaborate, what I meant to say was that the Enkiite Gods, the Serpents as they were named in the book, are the demons, working to promote Lord Enki's right to rule mankind and the Earth, the Enliliite Gods are the angels, protecting Enlil's native claim (just like God has a native claim to Heaven). Enki is a scientist and a moral being who saved mankind from the Flood when Enlil was prepared to let them die, Enlil is a stern warrior figure who doesn't tolerate disobedience or new ideas at all. I guess in this game though the Good and Evil thing is neutralized, that doesn't bother me though, what bothers me is giving stats for these mothers! Simon, Enkiite God in charge of new campaign ideas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:29:32 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Free Lilim >>* The Geas of a starting Free Lilim is worth around 1 point per level. > >The canon answer is 0 points -- this *should* be in the FAQ, but isn't. > >The geases are to balance the fact that the Lilim doesn't answer to a >Superior, they are not Discords worth points. (Geases are *never* worth >points as Discords -- read the Geas Discord carefully.) Yeesh. Sorry, I still haven't made myself clear. What I meant to say is that if a Lilim is trading a favour in exchange for a rite/attunement/whatever from a Superior, the GM should use the rule of thumb that each Geas level is the equivalent of one character point. So if the Free Lilim wants a band attunement, the superior will haggle, with the target price being a Geas/5. With roleplaying, this could be Geas/6 or Geas/4. As the Lilim gets more experienced and powerful, you would expect the value of her Geases to go up to say 2 points per level, such that a Servitor Attunements would cost a Geas/5 (instead of 2 Geas/5 for the inexperienced character). Of course, the GM would make the Geas/5 on an experienced character MUCH nastier than a Geas/5 on an inexperienced character. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:07:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Free Lilim >>>Are Free Lilim considered renergades as they do not have a superior, or is a demon only a renegade if he/she had a superior and then ignored that superior?<<< Free Lilim aren't Renegades unless Asmodeus declares them Renegades, which he does if he perceives they are not working for Hell. >>>I'm GMing a Free Lilim, who will be appearing in both Angelic and Infernal parties. What cost (in terms of a Geas) should I assign Attunements and Rites?<<< There will be some guidelines on this in the IPG, I believe, but the real answer is "Whatever deal she can cut with the Prince whose attunements and Rites she wants..." Remember, though, that a Prince will rarely give away Rites and attunements to a temporary Servitor, unless he expects to get long-term use out of her, and he is reasonably confident she's not going to actively oppose him in the future. In other words, Princes won't sell attunements and Rites for Geases as if they were simple commodities -- usually a Prince will offer something more tangible but less binding (Essence, a favor, an artifact, a servant, a Song, etc.), since giving a celestial one of your Rites or attunements is giving that celestial a small part of your Word. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:53:23 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN> Calling all reasearch gurus According to SienarFLT: > > When I was looking for books on Angelology I found plenty of things I *didn't* > want, ie Angels in Today's Enlightenment, and other inspirational drek. It > took me a little while to find a Historical/biblical reference, but thanks to > you guys I did find some real good stuff. What I can't seem to find however > is a good reference about Demonology, preferably something historical in > basis. Someone a while back suggested "Who In Hell" which I am *still* trying > to locate. Are there any other good sources of material? > First off, I'm no research guru....:) BUT, I do have a mother with one of those odd religion majors so I pick up a few odds and ends here and there. She has a book ( which I cannot remember the name of but will find out very shortly ) written in encyclopedaic format listing numerous rites, rituals, and no-no's dealing with witchcraft and ALSO (DING!) demonology. I remember reading some of it on a lazy afternoon, and I thought it was pretty good. Right to the point, no messing about - just the straight up information. Of course, that's what an engineer WOULD want, but hey - you know. I think of it as an inquisitor's handbook. I'll see if I can get the name from her and possibly a where to get if anyone is interested. Later people, Dan Ozdowski - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:35:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Leath Sheales wrote: > As a house rule, I allow Geasa to be taken by starting Lilim characters > (it's easy for them to slip up and fall into debt) and any other > character who can provide me with a valid background reason. Why should > a GM follow a rule which limits such wonderful story hooks? Very easy solution: take the proposed character background. Read it. Tell the player that they can take Geas discord if they want, but won't get any character points for it. If the player goes 'ummm... well... I guess I could write that out of my background' let them do that. If they say 'OK. I'll still take it', then either give them points for it or not as you choose. Yes, this might involve lying to players about game rules. I personally am very stingy indeed about discord. I ask players what they want, have them make an absolute decision about that, and *then* I decide how many points I am awarding. That way, characters only have discord for worthwhile in-character reasons, not just because they needed a few extra points to power-hack with. I usually give 1 or 2 points per level. Besides, not all discords are of equal impediment to all characters, so points values ought to vary greatly. I might award as much as 1 point per 2 levels for a Geas that the character will *really* regret. Like an angel of War who owes a Geas to a Lilim of The War. That sort of thing. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:05:37 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim Steve wrote: > I personally am very stingy indeed about discord. I ask players what they > want, have them make an absolute decision about that, and *then* I decide > how many points I am awarding. That way, characters only have discord for > worthwhile in-character reasons, not just because they needed a few extra > points to power-hack with. I usually give 1 or 2 points per level. None of my players take any discord (except Calabim). I've told them about it, told them they can take Geases etc. But they don''t want to hinder their characters with any discord other than Geas, and they're too scared to take Geas for what I'd make them do with it. > of War who owes a Geas to a Lilim of The War. That sort of thing. No matter who they say they owe the Geas to, if they take one it's going to end up in the hands of an enemy Superior if I'm in the mood. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:46:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Variant Campaigns (Was Preacher Campaign) On 18 Mar, Peter Frederick wrote: > It was a perfectly ordinary War. Heaven and Hell struggling to save > Humanity from each other and themselves all the while ignoring the vast > bulk of those they struggled for. And then Vapula released the WildCard > virus. Heh. I was going to use this general plan if/when I ever run some IN, mostly to reflect back the best Champions campaign I ever played in where we spent something like ten years (realtime) preventing the Second Coming. What *is* a celestial supposed to tell his Superior when these suddenly implausibly powerful mortals tell him that they're on a mission from the Angel of Death? :-) - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 23:47 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Free Lilim >What I meant to say is that if a Lilim is trading a favour in exchange >for a rite/attunement/whatever from a Superior, the GM should use the >rule of thumb that each Geas level is the equivalent of one character >point. So if the Free Lilim wants a band attunement, the superior will >haggle, with the target price being a Geas/5. With roleplaying, this >could be Geas/6 or Geas/4. Ah, OK. I think the scale isn't quite linear -- a Geas/1 isn't really worth 1 character point, while a year's worth of service probably ought to net more than a Band attunement's worth (5). As a linear approximation, though, it's not too bad. >As the Lilim gets more experienced and powerful, you would expect the >value of her Geases to go up to say 2 points per level, such that a >Servitor Attunements would cost a Geas/5 (instead of 2 Geas/5 for the >inexperienced character). Of course, the GM would make the Geas/5 on an >experienced character MUCH nastier than a Geas/5 on an inexperienced >character. That's reasonable -- the guidelines I did are for a "generic" 9-Force Lilim; a 12-Force one would naturally have a better bargaining position. And yes, the nature of geases is such that the difficulty is measured by how hard is is for the geasee to do something. Of course, it's harder to *impose* a geas on a more powerful character, unless you're a Superior, or can get the geasee to accept the geas (as for Lilim trading). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:45:10 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Superior PBEM At 07:07 PM 18/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>> Just a gentle reminder for everyone interested in In Nomine Superiors PBEM, the closing date for submissions is coming, coming, coming, yeah, it's coming! Simon, taxi cab driver in Hades ('Oh geez, a Shedites gone and clogged the express tunnel with entrails, God dammit!) "Some people lose faith because Heaven shows them too little, I lost faith because heaven showed me too much!" Cop, The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:42:13 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim >>I think I'm being a bit generous - still, I'm only starting my campaign, >>so I'll get a bit more miserly as time goes on. > >It's usually easier to start out miserly and get more generous later -- >fewer complaints that way. Hmm. That is a point. However, I like the AD&D style of play where inexperienced characters improve more quickly than experienced characters. This means if a character dies or is replaced etc the replacement catches up with experienced characters in a reasonable timeframe (although the older characters should be always that little bit better to reward survival). SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:23:25 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Bound! Questions about the Bound discord... If a celestial has the Bound discord, but more than one vessel, are there any problems changing vessels? Can a celestial with the Bound discord have more than one vessel? If a celestial is bound to an object, and that object is destroyed, what happens? For that matter, if he is bound to his vessel, and the vessel is slain, what happens? SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:42:56 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 02:35:09AM +0000, Steve Jessop wrote: > > I personally am very stingy indeed about discord. I ask players what they > want, have them make an absolute decision about that, and *then* I decide > how many points I am awarding. That way, characters only have discord for > worthwhile in-character reasons, not just because they needed a few extra > points to power-hack with. I usually give 1 or 2 points per level. > Discord isn't a useful strategy for power-hacking. I've made _heavily_ Discordant characters, and the result is almost always that the character is much worse off than if they didn't have the stuff they'd bought with the Discord. This is usually obvious even before the character is played. And it's the same with light Discord. You're better off with no levels of Berserk and no Song of Healing than 1 level of Berserk and a Song of Healing at level 3. Besides, for demons of any Band except Shedim, Impudites and, I think, Pachadim, simply possessing that resonance is a worthwhile in-character excuse for Discord. Other excuses include having Fallen (do you really think Demon Princes are going to remove all the Discord from their new Servitors?), having had a stay in Limbo, or having pissed off their Prince in a trivial fashion. It's very easy to think of excuses for taking Discord, and unless you say something along the lines of "Baal kills all his Discordant Servitors", which sounds damned unlikely, then your only real answer is to say "You can't have Discord because I said so". Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:29:50 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: Disturbances > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:15:24 +0000 > From: Kevin Walsh > Subject: Re: IN> Re: Distubances > > On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 12:47:26PM +0000, Ad. wrote: > > > > I feel this gives the right atmosphere and relatively similiar results. > > It also means that it is practically impossible to act in a celestial > > manner without being heard which should make the characters cautious. > > > Actually, all you have to do is get hostile interventions on your > Perception roll. (In a Con, he blinded me Celestially for the entire > session. That gun nut Balseraph blew up a truck and I didn't hear > anything.) What do you do when you get a divine intervention of a perception roll like that? :) Oh, there were a few Malakim there a couple of hours earlier who made very little noise. The scenario stated you needed a check digit of six to detect the residual echoes. That's why I looked gor rolls. > But more seriously, ruleslawyer though I am, I am not going to use the > disturbance rules for far away stuff if I ever GM. It's just too much of a > headache, though I might to a table certain round numbers. Good. > > Oh, and I need some advice, okay, how should you resolve it when a shedite > > sets of a nuclear warhead and destroys a small city? > > Very off-topic, but Colin gave a little talk last night on just how > difficult it is to set off nukes these days. Apparently the way he did it > (teleporting a grenade into the reaction chamber) wouldn't work. > Apparently nuking nukes doesn't work. True. I was aware of that - and it's a plot device (TM). The first Kobal Industries Nuke didn't go off when grenades exploded near it. I guess that careless Habbalah of Fire shouldn't have been allowed near the controls, she probably had the thing armed on the launch pad. On, and the shedim destroyed some controls which could have accidently armed the nuke. > I thought it was great that that was the session for which the Servitor of > Technology didn't show up. Very...ironic. Yes. > > By the proper rules it should be heard by an average celestial 30 light > > minutes away with echoes lasting several decades (conservative estimates). > > I think this is a little extreme, but I'm going to be continueing that > > game soon so I better sort it out. > > Oh? I thought that was going on the back burner. I'd prefer if it didn't, but there is still The Enemy Within and No Dinero so... > > I like the idea of every celestial being able to track that annoying > > shedite by the echos for a long time (serves him right for being a 5 Cel > > Force, 12 Will, 6 Fighting, celestial combat character.) > > > And apart from a Vessel, nothing like that happened to me, and it was > entirely to my benefit. And I was able to say (after I recovered from > Trauma) "Yes, Boss, I manipulated him into doing it, so no-one can blame > us." You didn't cause the disturbance.... Adam, Impudite of Gluttony - - "Oh, go on, have just one more game..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:52:27 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: Free Lilim > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:51:07 -0500 (EST) > From: Pee Kitty > Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim > > On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Streeter wrote: > > > A Band attunement is normally 5 points - a Geas/2 is 6 points at > > character creation. A Geas/2 in exchange for a band attunement seems a > > little cheap, to me. > > Incorrect. A Geas/2 is 0 points at character creation. Reread Geas...it is > not a normal Discord, and can NOT be taken at character creation for extra > points. Ik! I don't like this. Geasanna make great backgrounds and I would be tempted to give geasanna to a wide variety of infernal characters. But, three points is quite obviously too much. I'm thinking probably one point per level. Which means it'll take a level five geas to get a band attunement. Also, I don't like the idea of measuring geaanna in terms of time. I think it's the wrong way to deal with them. For example, level 6 geas, lead a raid on a heavily defended tether of Laurence would naturally only take an hour or so to repay. While the level 1 geas, keep an eye on such and such a member of your group and report anything suspicious to me could take months to repay. (This assumes a demon, obviously it's different costs for different people - it would be a lot to ask of a Cherub to report his associates, for example.) I think 'Free' Lilim would actually rarely have their geasanna called in. You just get called before, say, Beleth, told she has 6 levels of geas on you, and then offered a band attunement to carry out the mission. Weak willed power hungry lilim will always take the goodies and never get rid of any geasanna. (The superiors will always have complete control over her.) A strong willed Lilim should of course say no - to the offer forcing the Superior to call in the geas. Particularly daring lilim could try ask for more in the knowledge that the superior will be reluctant to use up a geas and lose a chance to call in the lilim later when she is really needed. Adam, Impudite of Gluttony. (How I fell from an Ofanim to an Impudite is a mystery to me.) - -- "The seas boiled and the living envied the dead. All was shattered and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - - from: The Breaking of the World, Author Unknown, Fourth Age. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #684 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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